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Why Can't the LPGA Players Putt?


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17 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

That article talks more about course setup and not really conditions. I agree with Annika and others who have talked about showcasing the LPGA members and their games. It’s an interesting topic because there’s courses that lexi and some of the longer hitters don’t use driver much because of the shortness of the holes and that helps the shorter members keep up and then on the other hand there’s the courses like last week at 6700 that hurts the shorter player as mentioned in the article

Poor choice of words in explaining my original point.  Although, I have seen some LPGA courses in pretty rough shape in recent years.  Evian comes to mind.  But they are more isolated incidents as opposed to the bad conditions the European Tour plays once a month.  I think the new "strategic partnership" with the PGA Tour will help the European Tour.  At least I hope it does.

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8 minutes ago, sixcat said:

Poor choice of words in explaining my original point.  Although, I have seen some LPGA courses in pretty rough shape in recent years.  Evian comes to mind.  But they are more isolated incidents as opposed to the bad conditions the European Tour plays once a month.  I think the new "strategic partnership" with the PGA Tour will help the European Tour.  At least I hope it does.

Evian is definitely one that stands out because no matter if it’s scheduled early in the season or later it seems to be wet and windy even when it’s not supposed to fe that season

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3 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Evian is definitely one that stands out because no matter if it’s scheduled early in the season or later it seems to be wet and windy even when it’s not supposed to fe that season

Weather issues are one thing.  Conditions due to uncooperative weather can't really be helped.  It just seems like Evian is doomed year in and year out!

I just think the LPGA could help themselves by setting up the courses to better showcase the talent the ladies have.  The 2019 British Open stands out to me.  Woburn is a terrific golf course, although not a links you'd expect for that event.  But it set up perfect to showcase the women's game.  And the women shined!  

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Putting statistics can be somewhat misleading period for just putting unless they add in length of putt.  That statistic is only available on the Men's tours.  Apolloshowl above is showing that the top women are missing about 1-1.5 putts per round more than the top men.  Very close and could be a result of greater average length of putt as others have stated.  Anecdotally, many of us get stomach hit watching Adam Scott hit two great shots to 6 ft and then miss, or Dustin Johnson a few years ago, or Keegan on Saturday.   It simply is not as much of a Venus-Mars scenario as it appears.                                

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59 minutes ago, sixcat said:

Weather issues are one thing.  Conditions due to uncooperative weather can't really be helped.  It just seems like Evian is doomed year in and year out!

I just think the LPGA could help themselves by setting up the courses to better showcase the talent the ladies have.  The 2019 British Open stands out to me.  Woburn is a terrific golf course, although not a links you'd expect for that event.  But it set up perfect to showcase the women's game.  And the women shined!  

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Posted (edited)

The input from the posts above on my question have brought up some interesting points that I hadn’t thought of. My statement on their perceived deficiency is not statistics based but comes from years of watching every LPGA and PGA televised round since I retired in 1992. Except for the two that I mentioned they just don’t threaten the cup, whether its for a birdie or a par. They always come up short when they had to get it to the hole because of the situation. 

I think the one viewpoint of course/green conditions is a very good determining factor. However, the one season I played at Great Southwest GC in Dallas where the greens were like the PGA tour, 11+ speed, it was pure panic on every putt. It’s like putting on your garage floor. The LPGA greens are on average much slower but that should mean that they get it to or past the hole every time. And make  more putts then. But it doesn’t happen. This weekend watch every round for a while and you will see what I mean.

Another point was made about the difference in 2nd shot distance. Again, watch every round. The women hardly ever hit more than a 7 and usually 8 to wedge. They are very long and incredibly straight off the tee. By comparison the men are wild although much longer. The biggest difference is on the Par 5s where the men are usually hitting an iron into the green where the women are almost always hitting a fairway wood.

Chipping and sand play. I’m always amazed at how often the PGA guys get it up and down from off the green or out of the bunker. Part of that may be because you don’t see as many chips and bunker shots on the LPGA. When you are playing at that level and you hardly ever have more than an 8 iron in it’s hard to miss the green. That could definitely be why they aren’t as good on those shots. If you only miss a couple of greens every round then it will be tough to hone those skills under pressure.

I wish the ladies were more deadly. It would really make the rounds more exciting.

The European Tour. Right on about the conditions hurting the play, especially the putting. Hadn’t thought of that.

Edited by jborchel
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9 minutes ago, jborchel said:

My statement on their perceived deficiency is not statistics based but comes from years of watching every LPGA and PGA televised round since I retired in 1992.

Perception can be misleading sometimes. A golf buddy of mine that got me started in the game for a long time had a perception that the pga pros made every putt and would get frustrated at his game because he was missing putts they were making. Then he learned that mostly shows made putts and the stats from ranges like 7-10’ weren’t really as high as tv makes them appear

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27 minutes ago, jborchel said:

I think the one viewpoint of course/green conditions is a very good determining factor. However, the one season I played at Great Southwest GC in Dallas where the greens were like the PGA tour, 11+ speed, it was pure panic on every putt. It’s like putting on your garage floor. The LPGA greens are on average much slower but that should mean that they get it to or past the hole every time. And make  more putts then. But it doesn’t happen. This weekend watch every round for a while and you will see what I mean.

Another point was made about the difference in 2nd shot distance. Again, watch every round. The women hardly ever hit more than a 7 and usually 8 to wedge. They are very long and incredibly straight off the tee. By comparison the men are wild although much longer. The biggest difference is on the Par 5s where the men are usually hitting an iron into the green where the women are almost always hitting a fairway wood.

Green speed has zero impact on optimal strategy for pace of putt or how far past the hole the target is. Read up on Scott Fawcett's DECADE program or anything that talks about capture speed for the hole. No good player aims to get every putt past the hole (unless they are a poor putter) except within maybe 15-20 ft. The best comment in this post refers to the fact LPGA players average roughly 1 more GIR than PGA players and 1-1.5 more putts per round which substitutes 1 greenside chip for a putt. 

In general, green speed is going to correlate strongly with the maintenance budget of the course as well as the climate/grass type. The higher maintenance budget to keep greens 11+ likely drives more rolling of the greens -> flatter surfaces. It's pretty straight forward that the slower the green, the longer the grass, which will inevitably lead to more variation on ball roll and reduce make rates. (Depth of depression the ball rests in, etc.)

Average LPGA driving distance in 260, 8 iron distance in 145. In the ANA Inspiration, 5 par 4s were over 400 yards so 5/10 (50%) approach shots on par 4s average longer than 8 irons. Roughly 3/10 or 30% of all par 4s over the past month were over 400 yards on the LPGA. Let alone par 4's where they opt not to hit driver. 

Average LPGA 3W is 220-230, so any Par 5 above 500 is borderline unreachable for the field average unless assisted by downhill, wind, etc.  The longest players can get there in two after a good drive provided they aren't into a strong wind. 

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1 hour ago, jborchel said:

The input from the posts above on my question have brought up some interesting points that I hadn’t thought of. My statement on their perceived deficiency is not statistics based but comes from years of watching every LPGA and PGA televised round since I retired in 1992. Except for the two that I mentioned they just don’t threaten the cup, whether its for a birdie or a par. They always come up short when they had to get it to the hole because of the situation. 

I think the one viewpoint of course/green conditions is a very good determining factor. However, the one season I played at Great Southwest GC in Dallas where the greens were like the PGA tour, 11+ speed, it was pure panic on every putt. It’s like putting on your garage floor. The LPGA greens are on average much slower but that should mean that they get it to or past the hole every time. And make  more putts then. But it doesn’t happen. This weekend watch every round for a while and you will see what I mean.

Another point was made about the difference in 2nd shot distance. Again, watch every round. The women hardly ever hit more than a 7 and usually 8 to wedge. They are very long and incredibly straight off the tee. By comparison the men are wild although much longer. The biggest difference is on the Par 5s where the men are usually hitting an iron into the green where the women are almost always hitting a fairway wood.

Chipping and sand play. I’m always amazed at how often the PGA guys get it up and down from off the green or out of the bunker. Part of that may be because you don’t see as many chips and bunker shots on the LPGA. When you are playing at that level and you hardly ever have more than an 8 iron in it’s hard to miss the green. That could definitely be why they aren’t as good on those shots. If you only miss a couple of greens every round then it will be tough to hone those skills under pressure.

I wish the ladies were more deadly. It would really make the rounds more exciting.

The European Tour. Right on about the conditions hurting the play, especially the putting. Hadn’t thought of that.

I think you perceptions are a bit off for both the LPGA tour and PGA tour.  
 

neither PGA or LPGA players are always past the hole.  Just like with the other clubs in their bags they have a dispersion pattern.  Having that pattern past the hole every time would lead to long second putts.  Having seen snippets of shotlink data from the PGA tour shows this to be true.  Watching televised golf does not not give you a perspective for the entire field.  The players on TV any particular week are being show because they are the contenders.

not sure what you are defining as very long off the tee, but they average about 240-250 off the tee.  Many are 30 yards shorter than that and hit longer irons and hybrids into greens on the longer par 4s.  The perceived wildness is because they generally hit the ball farther meaning that if a 2 players a hit the ball 1* offline the player hitting it 300 will be farther offline than the one hitting it 250.  
 

look at the stats from 2020,  the top GIR was 14 per round but middle of the pack gets you to 10-12 which means there are a lot of short game shits being played.  Typical reasoning is that men are typically stronger so they can swing faster and generate more spin on short game shots.  

unfortunately TV and the announcers paint the players as being better than they really are.  They are good but if you can dig into the numbers younger a better picture on how they play  

Yearly, I attend and volunteer at a local LPGA tournament and in the past have attended and volunteered at Symetra, Champions, and PGA events.  I watch the Monday qualifier, practice rounds, and observe play on specific holes so I see more than what is broadcast on tV.   All of these players are good but LPGA players don’t always leave putts short.  Those putts are probably more memorable because your immediate reaction is they should have gotten that putt to the hole.  

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2 hours ago, jborchel said:

The input from the posts above on my question have brought up some interesting points that I hadn’t thought of. My statement on their perceived deficiency is not statistics based but comes from years of watching every LPGA and PGA televised round since I retired in 1992. Except for the two that I mentioned they just don’t threaten the cup, whether its for a birdie or a par. They always come up short when they had to get it to the hole because of the situation. 

I think the one viewpoint of course/green conditions is a very good determining factor. However, the one season I played at Great Southwest GC in Dallas where the greens were like the PGA tour, 11+ speed, it was pure panic on every putt. It’s like putting on your garage floor. The LPGA greens are on average much slower but that should mean that they get it to or past the hole every time. And make  more putts then. But it doesn’t happen. This weekend watch every round for a while and you will see what I mean.

Another point was made about the difference in 2nd shot distance. Again, watch every round. The women hardly ever hit more than a 7 and usually 8 to wedge. They are very long and incredibly straight off the tee. By comparison the men are wild although much longer. The biggest difference is on the Par 5s where the men are usually hitting an iron into the green where the women are almost always hitting a fairway wood.

Chipping and sand play. I’m always amazed at how often the PGA guys get it up and down from off the green or out of the bunker. Part of that may be because you don’t see as many chips and bunker shots on the LPGA. When you are playing at that level and you hardly ever have more than an 8 iron in it’s hard to miss the green. That could definitely be why they aren’t as good on those shots. If you only miss a couple of greens every round then it will be tough to hone those skills under pressure.

I wish the ladies were more deadly. It would really make the rounds more exciting.

The European Tour. Right on about the conditions hurting the play, especially the putting. Hadn’t thought of that.

Watching PGA Tour on TV is just watching a highlight reel. You miss the vast majority of the true game. I don't watch golf but my assumption being that the LPGA doesn't show as many shots or have it honed down to key golfers so you see more of what they are doing vs PGA. 

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Remember what Lee Trevino said: 99% of the putts that are short don’t go in the hole.” You guys are obviously commenting without extensive experience watching the LPGA. Believe me. Except for the two I mentioned, they are usually short on putts and often not even close to having a chance to go in. The PGA guys are always burning the cup with the winner making more of the burns than the rest. 

Comments about only seeing the PGA contenders putt also holds true for the LPGA. Like the PGA they also show non-contenders make tough birdie putts. 

The stats differentials that are listed are usually considered huge when you look at many of the PGA listings for various categories for the players on the tour. 1.5 stroke average differential is a very large.

Finally, the original question of this post was "Why". I saw no attempts at answering this, just a bunch of statistical and environmental denials. I suggest that all here start watching more of the LPGA televised events. They are great golfers for sure. Just not in the same skill class as the men. They should be as the only differential there is has been compensated for by making the courses they play shorter.

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55 minutes ago, jborchel said:

Finally, the original question of this post was "Why". I saw no attempts at answering this, just a bunch of statistical and environmental denials. I suggest that all here start watching more of the LPGA televised events. They are great golfers for sure. Just not in the same skill class as the men. They should be as the only differential there is has been compensated for by making the courses they play shorter.

They "why" was that we disagree with your assessment so there is no why.  I do watch a lot of the LPGA and usually watch it over the PGA.   I will be working the Pure Silk event in a couple of week so I will pay close attention. 

I did a search and found the following article: https://www.golfdigest.com/story/putting-matthew-rudy  Perhaps that will answer your why question although the article is over 10 years old. 

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11 hours ago, jborchel said:

Remember what Lee Trevino said: 99% of the putts that are short don’t go in the hole.” You guys are obviously commenting without extensive experience watching the LPGA. Believe me. Except for the two I mentioned, they are usually short on putts and often not even close to having a chance to go in. The PGA guys are always burning the cup with the winner making more of the burns than the rest. 

Comments about only seeing the PGA contenders putt also holds true for the LPGA. Like the PGA they also show non-contenders make tough birdie putts. 

The stats differentials that are listed are usually considered huge when you look at many of the PGA listings for various categories for the players on the tour. 1.5 stroke average differential is a very large.

Finally, the original question of this post was "Why". I saw no attempts at answering this, just a bunch of statistical and environmental denials. I suggest that all here start watching more of the LPGA televised events. They are great golfers for sure. Just not in the same skill class as the men. They should be as the only differential there is has been compensated for by making the courses they play shorter.

Thanks for mansplaining that to the rest of us!   

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12 hours ago, jborchel said:

Remember what Lee Trevino said: 99% of the putts that are short don’t go in the hole.” You guys are obviously commenting without extensive experience watching the LPGA. Believe me. Except for the two I mentioned, they are usually short on putts and often not even close to having a chance to go in. The PGA guys are always burning the cup with the winner making more of the burns than the rest. 

Comments about only seeing the PGA contenders putt also holds true for the LPGA. Like the PGA they also show non-contenders make tough birdie putts. 

The stats differentials that are listed are usually considered huge when you look at many of the PGA listings for various categories for the players on the tour. 1.5 stroke average differential is a very large.

Finally, the original question of this post was "Why". I saw no attempts at answering this, just a bunch of statistical and environmental denials. I suggest that all here start watching more of the LPGA televised events. They are great golfers for sure. Just not in the same skill class as the men. They should be as the only differential there is has been compensated for by making the courses they play shorter.

Here is another article that discusses course setup. 
 

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2021/03/16/lpga-golf-course-setups-womens-golf-pga-tour/

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Coming back to this topic as I said I would.  Watched today's coverage of the Pure Silk on TV, watched a few groups come through some holes, and today I scored for Amy Olsen, Ariya Jutanugarn, and Stacy Lewis.   As I said earlier,  I don't think the players are as bad as the OP indicated.  Putts were challenging the holes and birdies weren't all inside 5 foot.    I'll check again tomorrow,  but I figure I will see the same thing. 

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On 5/5/2021 at 5:32 PM, jborchel said:

Remember what Lee Trevino said: 99% of the putts that are short don’t go in the hole.” You guys are obviously commenting without extensive experience watching the LPGA. Believe me. Except for the two I mentioned, they are usually short on putts and often not even close to having a chance to go in. The PGA guys are always burning the cup with the winner making more of the burns than the rest. 

Comments about only seeing the PGA contenders putt also holds true for the LPGA. Like the PGA they also show non-contenders make tough birdie putts. 

The stats differentials that are listed are usually considered huge when you look at many of the PGA listings for various categories for the players on the tour. 1.5 stroke average differential is a very large.

Finally, the original question of this post was "Why". I saw no attempts at answering this, just a bunch of statistical and environmental denials. I suggest that all here start watching more of the LPGA televised events. They are great golfers for sure. Just not in the same skill class as the men. They should be as the only differential there is has been compensated for by making the courses they play shorter.

341360235_Screenshot2021-05-20153931.jpg.d251bc9361c19f0674da5fb4bcfdf212.jpg

No idea what tournament this is from. However could you imagine if they could putt. -50 would win!!!

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10 minutes ago, THEZIPR23 said:

341360235_Screenshot2021-05-20153931.jpg.d251bc9361c19f0674da5fb4bcfdf212.jpg

No idea what tournament this is from. However could you imagine if they could putt. -50 would win!!!

Or they were all on fire with their irons hitting everything to 5 feet.  

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                :titelist-small: 915H  21*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
               :titelist-small: 915H 24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :callaway-small: 54-10S   :cleveland-small: 588  58-12
Putter:  :seemore-small: mFGP2

Backups:  :bobby-grace-1: 6330, :taylormade-small:TM-180, :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, Bellum Winmore 787

 

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

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