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Key to Winning: Switch to a Fade?


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4 hours ago, crw said:

Does anyone have any data, like Gears averages for tour pros, that shows how the majority that play a fade go about accomplishing the shot?

Specifically, are they opening the stance, playing a specific ball location, altering the clubs to fade (grip size, face angle, weighting), etc. 

On average, my path is close to zero, but I miss both directions. I’m just curious if I should attempt to turn my stock shot into a consistent fade. 

Take this with HUGE grain of salt:  Just based on watching on TV, it looks like most of them swing down on a path slightly outside their back swing path.  Not an over the top move but definitely swinging left at impact.  I've noticed iron divots pointing left of their foot line on short shots.

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4 hours ago, crw said:

Does anyone have any data, like Gears averages for tour pros, that shows how the majority that play a fade go about accomplishing the shot?

Specifically, are they opening the stance, playing a specific ball location, altering the clubs to fade (grip size, face angle, weighting), etc. 

On average, my path is close to zero, but I miss both directions. I’m just curious if I should attempt to turn my stock shot into a consistent fade. 

Only place I’ve seen post any gear data is athletic motion golf. I don’t recall if they’ve done it for specific ball flights.

I think it varies between adjusting body lines, face  and path manipulation using a square stance.

there’s YouTube videos of golfers being told what to hit as they transition so the pros have different ways to do it.  When I went back to playing a fade the pro had me open my stance while keeping a square face to target

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53 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Only place I’ve seen post any gear data is athletic motion golf. I don’t recall if they’ve done it for specific ball flights.

I think it varies between adjusting body lines, face  and path manipulation using a square stance.

there’s YouTube videos of golfers being told what to hit as they transition so the pros have different ways to do it.  When I went back to playing a fade the pro had me open my stance while keeping a square face to target

So do you take your grip after you address the club and take your stance or grip first with a square stance and then drop your lead foot back to open the stance?  I know I'd have to try various methods myself to see what would work best, but I'm curious how others do it.  

In the past if I try to aim left of the target with the face pointed somewhere between my path and the target I generally end up hitting dead pulls.  So maybe I need to keep the face at where I want the ball to end up based on my grip/swing/etc.  

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26 minutes ago, crw said:

So do you take your grip after you address the club and take your stance or grip first with a square stance and then drop your lead foot back to open the stance?  I know I'd have to try various methods myself to see what would work best, but I'm curious how others do it.  

In the past if I try to aim left of the target with the face pointed somewhere between my path and the target I generally end up hitting dead pulls.  So maybe I need to keep the face at where I want the ball to end up based on my grip/swing/etc.  

I always have my grip set before I step into the ball. I setup square to target then open my stance then take my stance width. 
 

I don’t drop my lead foot back but turn my whole body to be open. When we started working on it we used an alignment rod for target and the another one for my body lines at address. One thing to keep and eye on is ball position so that it doesn’t get too far back as a result of opening up.

Edit: forgot to mention we used about a 15* open stance. 

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I have been continually working on a draw and I already had the perfect ball flight with a fade. Although key to lowering my score is not my ball flight, it is fixing that pesky short game. I need to be more disciplined at the range and quit pretending it a long drive competition. But damn it feels good to be a crusher.  I guess rather than focusing on my ball flight I just need to Swing it and Ding it. 

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I think it was when Fred Couples started playing the senior tour he switched ball flights for a time to a draw (maybe he still plays it?) . 

He was asked how he made the switch after hitting a power fade all those years.... 

He said well I just picture it in my head, the ball falling a little bit from right to left and then I swing.   

I guess there are feel players and mechanics out there!!    I am not sure how serious he was but it made me laugh a bit!  🤣

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On 5/19/2021 at 8:48 AM, crw said:

On average, my path is close to zero, but I miss both directions. I’m just curious if I should attempt to turn my stock shot into a consistent fade. 

I would highly recommend picking either a draw or a fade if you tend to miss both ways. This way you can take out one side of play and know where your ball is going or at least have a general idea.

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12 hours ago, stephenmatt said:

I would highly recommend picking either a draw or a fade if you tend to miss both ways. This way you can take out one side of play and know where your ball is going or at least have a general idea.

You really can’t take one side out of play due to shot dispersion but by picking one shot shape you minimize the risk if a double cross.   

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21 minutes ago, cnosil said:

You really can’t take one side out of play due to shot dispersion but by picking one shot shape you minimize the risk if a double cross.   

As a Decade follower, I agree.  Attempting to switch to a fade wouldn't change my course management decisions or beliefs on how dispersion patterns work.  I'm just wondering if a fade would shrink down those cones/patterns for me.  I just haven't had an opportunity to since this thread started because of non-stop rain for over a week now in my area.  

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13 minutes ago, crw said:

As a Decade follower, I agree.  Attempting to switch to a fade wouldn't change my course management decisions or beliefs on how dispersion patterns work.  I'm just wondering if a fade would shrink down those cones/patterns for me.  I just haven't had an opportunity to since this thread started because of non-stop rain for over a week now in my area.  

I'd be very interested to see how your trial of switching to a fade goes. Maybe for a week or two, you try to just play a fade and see what it does to your dispersion. Definitely report back if the rain ever stops out there!

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, cnosil said:

You really can’t take one side out of play due to shot dispersion but by picking one shot shape you minimize the risk if a double cross.   

I guess this is a better way of putting what I meant. Obviously you never will truly take one side out of play 100% but you sure as heck give yourself a better chance of not missing both ways.

Edited by stephenmatt
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8 hours ago, crw said:

As a Decade follower, I agree.  Attempting to switch to a fade wouldn't change my course management decisions or beliefs on how dispersion patterns work.  I'm just wondering if a fade would shrink down those cones/patterns for me.  I just haven't had an opportunity to since this thread started because of non-stop rain for over a week now in my area.  

What’s your path like right now? If you are already fairly Inside out, I wouldn’t suggest actively changing your swing to chase a fade... if you are fairly neutral, it’s not that huge a change... 

Ive played both and am a DECADE fan, so I’m trying to settle on one... I find the draw harder to play consistently, but I have terrible shoulder mobility, so I tend to be inside out, and my draw can end up going way left. 
From Listening to Adam Young, I think it’s worth spending time figuring out your “patterns” And sticking with what works... I don’t think either one is inherently better, but they both have advantages!

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35 minutes ago, myherobobhope said:

What’s your path like right now? If you are already fairly Inside out, I wouldn’t suggest actively changing your swing to chase a fade... if you are fairly neutral, it’s not that huge a change...

Currently it’s close to 0*. I started playing ~8 years ago and was massively over the top. A year or two in I worked with an instructor who was a former stack and tilt guy. While he didn’t specifically try to teach me that method, we did end up getting me all the way to 14* right. He was having me over do it with the thought that I’d be able to  able dial it back. I’ve been working on dialing it back ever since...I knew it was getting better as my skill improved and scores dropped, but it was only recently that I learned it was close to 0*. But that was one session on a monitor so it could have been a one off event. 

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Some nice post in this thread. Guess I was lucky in one way that I learned to play during persimmon era. Was taught how to fade or draw on demand primarily through stance setup with occasional ball position change and/or open/close face-grip mod . Always been able to do it with smaller wooden woods and/or blade like irons. My misses are not result of a natural tendency per se rather poor swing execution.

Admit with modern technology (I first experienced with original Big Bertha metal woods/90's) that it is much more difficult to work ball with metal woods vs persimmons for me. And larger the club heads progressed over time it was also the harder for me to work a ball. So today I play for a straight ball flight with very little curvature. IF I have to play a  curved type shot I prefer a draw as I can still turn my hands over/close face pretty consistent at impact but I need more room or wider fairways for rollout vs in past when I could easily play a high or low baby draw. Regarding a draw with modern woods for me is the ball runs out further kinda like a hook did in old days with persimmons which was really a bad shot. The problem I have with modern woods regarding a fade is I block or hold off too long. I much preferred how I use to swing persimmon driver with open stance and just did not think about anything but making normal swing and all the paths were in place with open stance setup to produce desired fade. Just never pulled it off with consistency with advent of metal woods so I just play a straight shot off the tee. So moral of my story/journey is to just play it straight and not try to get cute off the tee (I can't carry ball as far now so I don't take on doglegs anymore--so I got that going for me-- well sorta). 😀

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Posted (edited)

Pete Cowen is a high-level pro. I really believe he has some incrediable secrets for winning. I wish he would be able to show me them. Please, could anybody help me and recommend a good article to read about famous golf players's tactics or methods? My dad is pro and I recently started playing gold. Now I've finally read many artcirles and tutors like https://cybercaddie.com/how-to-hit-a-golf-ball/. Yesterday I entered mygolfspy to get some new useful tips fpr myself. I often read about Pete Cowen or Dustin Johnson etc. But would lovely to see their methods of the game.

Edited by maxmayer221
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13 hours ago, aerospace_ray said:

Some nice post in this thread. Guess I was lucky in one way that I learned to play during persimmon era. Was taught how to fade or draw on demand primarily through stance setup with occasional ball position change and/or open/close face-grip mod . Always been able to do it with smaller wooden woods and/or blade like irons. My misses are not result of a natural tendency per se rather poor swing execution.

Admit with modern technology (I first experienced with original Big Bertha metal woods/90's) that it is much more difficult to work ball with metal woods vs persimmons for me. And larger the club heads progressed over time it was also the harder for me to work a ball. So today I play for a straight ball flight with very little curvature. IF I have to play a  curved type shot I prefer a draw as I can still turn my hands over/close face pretty consistent at impact but I need more room or wider fairways for rollout vs in past when I could easily play a high or low baby draw. Regarding a draw with modern woods for me is the ball runs out further kinda like a hook did in old days with persimmons which was really a bad shot. The problem I have with modern woods regarding a fade is I block or hold off too long. I much preferred how I use to swing persimmon driver with open stance and just did not think about anything but making normal swing and all the paths were in place with open stance setup to produce desired fade. Just never pulled it off with consistency with advent of metal woods so I just play a straight shot off the tee. So moral of my story/journey is to just play it straight and not try to get cute off the tee (I can't carry ball as far now so I don't take on doglegs anymore--so I got that going for me-- well sorta). 😀

I keep a persimmon in my bag that my father passed down to me. The thing still rips, but it spins so much that I typically use it with a towering draw. Of course in tournaments I take it out of the bag, but it's fun golfing with new people who have never hit one before to let them try it out. It has the original shaft with a new Dri-Tac grip. It's a driver, but it almost plays easier off the deck. Honestly, I only lose around 30 yards off my current driver. All things considered, 30 yards after aging 40 years is pretty incredible.

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On 5/21/2021 at 11:24 AM, Shapotomous said:

I think it was when Fred Couples started playing the senior tour he switched ball flights for a time to a draw (maybe he still plays it?) . 

He was asked how he made the switch after hitting a power fade all those years.... 

He said well I just picture it in my head, the ball falling a little bit from right to left and then I swing.   

I guess there are feel players and mechanics out there!!    I am not sure how serious he was but it made me laugh a bit!  🤣

I read a similar story about Sam Snead. He usually hit a draw but was hitting a fade on the range on purpose. Asked how he went about hitting a fade, he said, “I just think fade.”  

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Cobra King F9 Speedback 3 wood

Callaway Big Bertha Heavenwood

Cobra F9 Speedback 7/8 wood set at 23.5 degrees

Taylormade M4 5 hybrid

Callaway Mavrik Max 6-GW

PXG 0211 5-GW

PXG 0211 sand wedge bent to 53 degrees

Maltby M Series+ 54 degree

Ping Glide 3.0 Eye2 58 degree

Ping Sigma 2 Anser

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On 5/13/2021 at 10:26 AM, GolfSpy_TCG said:

You may have seen recently that Rory McIlroy hired renowned swing coach, Pete Cowen, to help him work on his game. Yes, this was the first new swing coach he has had since childhood, but what has come out of the new coach is more notable. Rory, for the first time, is going to change his game from his natural draw to a fade. Is it working? Well, he just won the Well’s Fargo Championship last week, so I’d say yeah, it’s working.

He’s not the first player to do this either. Most notably in my mind is the incredible change Dustin Johnson made in 2016 on the morning of the U.S. Open where he won his first Major. He played his natural draw his entire life, but it wasn’t working during the warmup of the Major, so he played a fade that day and never looked back as the story goes! There's an incredible Golf Digest article on that moment. Another famous example of this is Tiger woods moving to a fade in the early 2000s when he was frankly unstoppable.

Trying to find a thesis to this rambling is hard, but it centers around these questions: Is a fade the perfect ball flight? Should we all change from our natural ball flight to the opposite? Is it worth reconsidering that slight draw you worked so hard to get?

Every person on this forum has likely fought a slice or hook at some point in their amateur golfing career. If you’re not fighting it anymore, my guess is you straightened it out but probably still play your natural ball flight. So the question is, should you change your swing path and face angle to play the opposite of your natural flight?

A few quotes that confuse the hell out of me:

  • “You can talk to a fade, but a hook won’t listen.”
  • “When you are teaching a beginner to play golf, teach them how to hook the ball first, then straighten out their swing.”

IMG_3340.PNG.dbedd049d717d7aa4c6436108c3df5b7.PNG

IMG_3341.PNG.bdec787369dd96bcb50f0e2645056444.PNG

I think what is the essence of the move to go to one style of shot is to have something you trust and can depend on at any given moment. Draws are still required, and Hogan, et al, hit them, but they chose a fade, in part, to have a shot they could trust.

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I spent most of the last decade hitting a consistent draw, with a swing flaw that didn't matter when my timing was solid, which it was for a good 4+ year stretch. Well, eventually my timing got messed up for a long enough period of time (this is in about 2018) that I got really sick of big pulls/pull hooks/overcooked hooks and decided I needed to switch to a fade. After two years of two way misses, fits & starts that ebbed and flowed with the amount of range time I put in and the types of courses I played, I abandoned that to return to my natural swing, but with two main adjustments: 1) course management:  I learned to hit a punch fade shot with my utility that goes 220 and is plenty of club for most holes with trouble left. 2) I work mainly on drills that mitigate my swing flaw (if properly applied) rather than really changing my natural swing. This is still a work in progress and my driver is not the same as it was a few years ago, but at least the worst is over. 

TL;DR: I am now in the camp of don't go for a wholesale change unless you are willing/available to put in a ton of work/reps over months/years. 

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8 minutes ago, hartrick11 said:

I spent most of the last decade hitting a consistent draw, with a swing flaw that didn't matter when my timing was solid, which it was for a good 4+ year stretch. Well, eventually my timing got messed up for a long enough period of time (this is in about 2018) that I got really sick of big pulls/pull hooks/overcooked hooks and decided I needed to switch to a fade. After two years of two way misses, fits & starts that ebbed and flowed with the amount of range time I put in and the types of courses I played, I abandoned that to return to my natural swing, but with two main adjustments: 1) course management:  I learned to hit a punch fade shot with my utility that goes 220 and is plenty of club for most holes with trouble left. 2) I work mainly on drills that mitigate my swing flaw (if properly applied) rather than really changing my natural swing. This is still a work in progress and my driver is not the same as it was a few years ago, but at least the worst is over. 

TL;DR: I am now in the camp of don't go for a wholesale change unless you are willing/available to put in a ton of work/reps over months/years. 

This is a really good example of using your natural swing shape to manage the course well. I have my own interesting path:

For the longest time, I hit a slice. I worked my ass off to hit a draw with all my clubs. Eventually, I chose to try and play a controlled fade (NOT slice). Now, my ball goes just as far as it did with a draw, my misses are a little too far right, BUT I am much more consistent than when trying to play a draw thinking it was the better shot shape. I do have a club (my 2 Iron) that I use for a draw when needed as well. Hoping to get below a 5 handicap this year as I quickly moved from a 14 last year to an 8.4 right now!

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