Lets talk about Long Drivers....

[JohnnyCallaway]

I get it. It’s a trend on TOUR, Phil wins the PGA at 50 with a 48-inch thunder stick and some kid in your Saturday game is hitting it 20 by you. I’m with you.

I’d compare this undertaking to wearing skinny jeans in your early 40’s…it CAN be done but like any brave and ambitious undertaking, we must take a deep breath and think this through. 

Let’s first establish what a long driver is. In my opinion, anything north of 46 inches is long. Versus industry standard that would put you anywhere from an inch to a quarter of an inch over the industry standard. We at Callaway have a standard length of 45.75 which is flirting with “long” but not quite there. Truth be told for the average golfer a longer driver will help dispersion before distance. Why? Just by sheer human reaction the longer the club, the shallower the plain. Have you ever taken a broom handle or a long stick and swung it for fun? Do you notice how shallow the plane is? The same rule applies here. That shallow-er plane will help face control (a little) and aid in hitting it a bit straighter, and higher! Two for One!!

On TOUR the Driver length standard is slowly rising. On the Callaway staff we have Phil at just south of 48, Dylan Frittelli 46, Xander 45.5, Rahm 45.25, and Jim Furyk was at 46.5 for a good spell. In Furyk’s case, it wasn’t just the distance he was looking for, it was dispersion and the fact that he could swing easier and still smack it out there. As you can see Rahmbo is closer to TOUR Standard (which is 45) but the others add a bit extra. For that group of names, it’s the combination of not only distance and accuracy but also each player has the desired flight window they require. The X factor in this whole thing is when they all got properly fit. I know it’s mind-numbing to hear that over and over but it’s the truth. Take Phil for example, when he decided to go into a long driver it was a plan that entailed what he needed to do physically to make it work and a ridiculous amount of trial and error with Master Tech Gerritt Pon. He not only had a plan but changed his body and swing to take actually take advantage of the extra 3 inches.

“There are some interesting things to look at when going into the long drivers. With the players we have worked with there seems to be a point (length) of diminishing returns that takes place. At a certain point, players will plateau in speed and that’s when you need to stop. 

Not all players respond exactly the same way, some players will actually LOSE speed with a long driver, the length can be awkward for some which inhibit speed. For example, a lot of players we fit won’t swing their 4-iron any faster than a 5-iron, it’s that point of diminishing speed that we need to pay attention to. 

If you don’t have access to a fitter and want to give it a test, try choking down on a longer driver and start working your way up the shaft as you go. It’s not apples to apples but it’ll give you an idea. “

-Gerritt Pon Callaway Golf Master Tech

Read the full Story on Phil’s Driver:

Phils Driver: Epic Speed PM Proto (6@5.5 3GF, 2GB) Shaft: Fujikura Ventus Black 6TX (47.85 inches, Tipped 0, D9)

Without going into a long exhaustive study on club fitting and physics I’ll do us the favor of keeping this REALLY simple. 

Here are 5 tips to help create your Hellacious Seed Machine

1. Talk to a trusted fitter first: Make the call, send the DM in Instagram whatever it takes. DO YOUR RESEARCH!! There is enough honest info on the Golf web via myself, WRX, MGS, or THP that you should be able to have a small grasp on the good the bad, and the absolute ugly. Trust me from personal experience, when it goes bad it can go very bad. Once the decision is made, find a fitter and leave it to the experts. The long driver is a completely different animal. The length goes up, launch goes up, loft needs to come down, the swing weight will potentially go up and a low head weight helps to offset overall length. I don’t have enough bandwidth to get into shafts, that’s a rabbit hole. I’ll leave that to the fitter. All of that adds up to a ton of things to pay attention to. 
2. Throw your expectations out the door: There is no telling what benefits will be gained by going into a long stick. YES, you may hit it a mile, but at what cost? Get honest.
3. Start Slow: Don’t go from your 45-inch gamer into a 47-inch hammer. Try 45.5 to start and work up only as you see success. Remember this has to actually help your scores to make sense. 
4. Swing at your normal speed: “Let the club do the work” Have you heard that one? In this case, it’s quite true, the longer length will naturally add MPH’s to your swing speed so don’t go all Sadlowski right out of the gate. As you start hitting the center of the face on a consistent basis you can then slowly try to ramp up the speed.
5. Learn how to hit UP on it: Upward angle of attack is essential to REALLY make this work. Phil has an angle of attack north of 5-degrees. He needed to work that number up (from 1 to 2) to hit those high bombs he so affectionately talks about. This is where the lower loft setting comes into play. Hitting up with the longer length increases your dynamic loft at impact. This is why Phil had to go all the way down to 5.5 loft. Yes, it sounds like a VERY low setting but at impact, it doesn’t play at that loft, probably closer to 7.5 or 8. If his AOA was to be lower (1 or 2) he would hit knee-high fastballs at 180MPH. Sounds fun for Instagram but not at Torrey Pines!!

My Experience:

My journey with the long driver took place over the last month. It was a blast! My swing speed crept up to 115 MPH for the first time in 3 or 4 years and I hit a few scud missiles. It was awesome. HOWEVER, my dispersion was hit or miss, and compared to my gamer the distance wasn’t enough to commit. I’ll keep messing around with it but thus far it’s just a fun test:) 

The Driver in question is a 46.5-inch Epic Speed LS (8.5@7.5, Strong Cog) with a Mitsubishi Tensei 1k 50TX (Tipped .5, D5). Of every combo, this one was the most balanced. Center strikes were consistent, the good shots were unbelievable and the bad ones were mildly manageable. 

Here is a list of the shafts I tried:

Fujikura Ventus Black 6X (Really good but didn’t spin quite enough)
Graphite Design AD HD 6X (Solid but launched a little low in this set-up)
Project X Hzurdus Smoke RDX Black 60G 6.5 (Very stout, numbers were good but the feel was a bit harsh for me)

Happy Bazooka Hunting

JDub

[cnosil]

2 hours ago, JohnnyCallaway said:

“There are some interesting things to look at when going into the long drivers. With the players we have worked with there seems to be a point (length) of diminishing returns that takes place. At a certain point, players will plateau in speed and that’s when you need to stop. 

Not all players respond exactly the same way, some players will actually LOSE speed with a long driver, the length can be awkward for some which inhibit speed. For example, a lot of players we fit won’t swing their 4-iron any faster than a 5-iron, it’s that point of diminishing speed that we need to pay attention to. 

If you don’t have access to a fitter and want to give it a test, try choking down on a longer driver and start working your way up the shaft as you go. It’s not apples to apples but it’ll give you an idea. “

 

Here are 5 tips to help create your Hellacious Seed Machine

1. Talk to a trusted fitter first: Make the call, send the DM in Instagram whatever it takes. DO YOUR RESEARCH!! There is enough honest info on the Golf web via myself, WRX, MGS, or THP that you should be able to have a small grasp on the good the bad, and the absolute ugly. Trust me from personal experience, when it goes bad it can go very bad. Once the decision is made, find a fitter and leave it to the experts. The long driver is a completely different animal. The length goes up, launch goes up, loft needs to come down, the swing weight will potentially go up and a low head weight helps to offset overall length. I don’t have enough bandwidth to get into shafts, that’s a rabbit hole. I’ll leave that to the fitter. All of that adds up to a ton of things to pay attention to. 
2.  

 

Interesting read.   You seem to kind of contradict yourself here.   In the middle of the article you say if you can't find a fitter you can experiment yourself.   Then you say is it pretty important to find a fitter.    Is this something people should experiment with themselves?  Any tips on figuring out what works best for you?   Launch Monitor a necessity?

 

 

[HDTVMAN]

When the Fusion Heavy was introduced, I put it in the bag and was amazed how much farther and straighter I hit the ball. The shorter shaft with increased head weight was a win win for me. When I fit drivers, I'll always suggest trying a shorter shaft and comparing the differences. However, in order to do this correctly, the head-weight needs to be adjusted. Many fitters don't do this. Taking a stock head on a -.5" or -1" shaft can decrease the swing weight dramatically. If you try a shorter or longer shaft be sure your fitter adjusts the head weight.

[funkyjudge]

I actually consider any driver with a playing length north of 45" to be a "long" driver, and something that the vast majority (say about 99.8% of all amateur golfers) should avoid like the plague.  The longer the playing length, the tougher it is to hit the ball in or very near the sweet spot on the face of one's driver, and the results are loss of both distance and accuracy.  I know that I am much better-off -- and I score considerably better -- when I am playing a driver that is 44.25" to 44.75" long.

[Puttingmatt]

I been down this road a decade ago 

Long drivers are not a new idea, also disagree with dispersion being better, straighter, longer.

Whats better is the slices and hooks, lol's

[PMookie]

On 6/6/2021 at 12:13 PM, HDTVMAN said:

When the Fusion Heavy was introduced, I put it in the bag and was amazed how much farther and straighter I hit the ball. The shorter shaft with increased head weight was a win win for me. When I fit drivers, I'll always suggest trying a shorter shaft and comparing the differences. However, in order to do this correctly, the head-weight needs to be adjusted. Many fitters don't do this. Taking a stock head on a -.5" or -1" shaft can decrease the swing weight dramatically. If you try a shorter or longer shaft be sure your fitter adjusts the head weight.

Amen. I’ve yet to be in a fitting where the fitter can go shorter and raise the head weight appropriately 

[PMookie]

@JohnnyCallaway so by the premise  of accuracy comes just by having a flatter plane, is this always the case? If so, if one wants to be more accurate all they need to do is shallow their plane across the board?

[revkev]

Very good read and interesting concept. 
 

I’m wondering if the key to playing the maximum length driver is learning to swing it easy allowing the centrifugal force to take effect. Ive been fit to 45.5 the last 3 driver fittings that I’ve been to.  

I would respectfully disagree with the poster who started that 98 percent of amateurs should game a drive under 45”.    That was true 10 years ago.  Technology changes.  Every driver on the market is built for at least a 45” shaft if not longer.  It’s what the OEMs R and D group believes provides the best balance of distance and dispersion.

 

For that reason I’d suggest that the poster who tried it 10 years ago consider trying it again today.

 

Things change 

 

 

[MadMex]

****** STUPID QUESTIONS WARNING ******

1) Let's say I install a shaft, regular and do not trim it or anything and it plays at say, 48", would that shaft STILL play as a regular shaft"

2) If I have a driver which plays at 45.5" regular and I chocked down one inch, would it still play as a regular or a bitt stiffer? 

 

[revkev]

26 minutes ago, MadMex said:

****** STUPID QUESTIONS WARNING ******

1) Let's say I install a shaft, regular and do not trim it or anything and it plays at say, 48", would that shaft STILL play as a regular shaft"

2) If I have a driver which plays at 45.5" regular and I chocked down one inch, would it still play as a regular or a bitt stiffer? 

 

You no the deal about no stupid questions.

 

 Can’t answer one but 2 is that it will play a bit stiffer but I don’t think as stiff as if you actually cut it down. 

[MadMex]

19 minutes ago, revkev said:

You no the deal about no stupid questions.

 

 Can’t answer one but 2 is that it will play a bit stiffer but I don’t think as stiff as if you actually cut it down. 

I happen to be a retired USAF Air Traffic Control Supervisor,,,, let me dispel the "there is no stupid questions",,,, 

 

I wondered about that, because I taped about 1/2 inch on my driver and it did not feel too bad, more shots stayed staright and in the fairway, after I cut it down1/2 inch, it felt a bit stiffer, not a lot but slightly different, no effect of ball flight

[revkev]

8 hours ago, MadMex said:

I happen to be a retired USAF Air Traffic Control Supervisor,,,, let me dispel the "there is no stupid questions",,,, 

 

I wondered about that, because I taped about 1/2 inch on my driver and it did not feel too bad, more shots stayed staright and in the fairway, after I cut it down1/2 inch, it felt a bit stiffer, not a lot but slightly different, no effect of ball flight

Too funny and thanks for keeping me safe while I was drugged up so that they could get me on a plane.

 

I like the tape or mark on the longer shaft because it gives you control but also the option to “let out the shaft” when appropriate. 
 

This is a case where a player could have the best of all worlds. 

[M. Parsons]

10 hours ago, MadMex said:

I happen to be a retired USAF Air Traffic Control Supervisor,,,, let me dispel the "there is no stupid questions",,,, 

 

I wondered about that, because I taped about 1/2 inch on my driver and it did not feel too bad, more shots stayed staright and in the fairway, after I cut it down1/2 inch, it felt a bit stiffer, not a lot but slightly different, no effect of ball flight

I guess I've never heard of "taping" or "marking" a longer shaft, but a few years back I did choke down about an inch on the R-flex 45.5" driver I had, and that seemed to help dispersion...then I went out and bought a S-flex 44.5" driver and fixed it altogether.  I wish I could say I was "properly" fit into either of those drivers, but I wasn't. 

Oh, and thank you for your service...I always admired your job and thought it would be a cool job to have...stressful, sure, but cool none the less.  Instead I was the guy making sure you, and your equipment stayed cool in that hot box.

[BMart519]

15 hours ago, PMookie said:

@JohnnyCallaway so by the premise  of accuracy comes just by having a flatter plane, is this always the case? If so, if one wants to be more accurate all they need to do is shallow their plane across the board?

I would like to see data on this. The flatter the plane, it reduces the amount of arc length parallel (or close) to the target line. Pretty much the whole reason there is limits on maximum lie angles, especially on putters. 

The accuracy performance of the Cobra One Length hybrid in MGS Most Wanted testing 1-2 years ago would seem to demonstrate the opposite that shorter and more upright made a noticeable improvement to accuracy. (Because more of your swing is along or closer to the target line) 

[PMookie]

17 minutes ago, BMart519 said:

I would like to see data on this. The flatter the plane, it reduces the amount of arc length parallel (or close) to the target line. Pretty much the whole reason there is limits on maximum lie angles, especially on putters. 

The accuracy performance of the Cobra One Length hybrid in MGS Most Wanted testing 1-2 years ago would seem to demonstrate the opposite that shorter and more upright made a noticeable improvement to accuracy. (Because more of your swing is along or closer to the target line) 

Agreed. It’s an awful big stretch to make the claim that longer brings more accuracy even with saying it’s due to a flatter arc….

[null]

1 minute ago, PMookie said:

Agreed. It’s an awful big stretch to make the claim that longer brings more accuracy even with saying it’s due to a flatter arc….

Yup - I have never heard, be it from an instructor or a top fitter, say that a flatter swing plane leads to better accuracy.  

[RickyBobby_PR]

14 hours ago, MadMex said:

****** STUPID QUESTIONS WARNING ******

1) Let's say I install a shaft, regular and do not trim it or anything and it plays at say, 48", would that shaft STILL play as a regular shaft"

2) If I have a driver which plays at 45.5" regular and I chocked down one inch, would it still play as a regular or a bitt stiffer? 

 

Many shafts are actually built at 47-48” so that they can then be trimmed to playing lengths. Typically one would tip trim the shaft if needed  and some OEMs like TM do this by default at 1” because of their adapter. Then once the shaft it tipped its cut to playing length by butt trimming.

2) shortening the shaft from the butt will reduce weight but generally has no impact on changing the flex. If you tip a shaft then you start impacting the flex of the shaft. 

[funkyjudge]

18 hours ago, MadMex said:

****** STUPID QUESTIONS WARNING ******

1) Let's say I install a shaft, regular and do not trim it or anything and it plays at say, 48", would that shaft STILL play as a regular shaft"

2) If I have a driver which plays at 45.5" regular and I chocked down one inch, would it still play as a regular or a bitt stiffer? 

 

The answer to Q #1 is that, at 48” long, that shaft will almost certainly play softer than it would play at 45” long.  Because of the additional length, the club will have a swingweight that is approaching (or at) E0 or higher, unless you are using a super-lightweight driver head and/or you have an extremely counter-balanced shaft.  Even if the shaft is massively counter-balanced, you are still likely to see a swingweight well above D5 at 48” playing length.  These factors will make the shaft flex more and play softer than it would play at a more “conventional” length.

[twyatt700]

So I literaly hopped on the Boom Sticks thread to start a my own new thread detailing my experiement with a long driver.  But looks like I was late to the party.  I am an improving golfer who has struggled with a slice due to a steep swing and an over the top move, this last year I've learned to keep the ball in the yard, albiet with a very tempered swing, but I can hit it straight and far enough, as my coach would say.  But we all want just a bit more... so I decieded to try a longer driver after hearing Jon Sherman's experience... and because I don't have all the funds and time to go get fit and buy a shiny new Callaway (as much as I would love too and was really trying to manifest a selection into the Epic Speed test) I decieded to go with this experiment myself and through my own trial and error.  I bought an uncut Evelflow black shaft and some lighter weights for my Cobra SZ (sorry @JohnnyCallaway feel free to hook me up if you're offended) and with my Rapsodo and PRPG monitors was going to figure this out myself. 

I went the range at lunch today for my initial session and after some adjusting I think there is something to this whole long driver thing. Essensially my swing speed when up immediately from 100-104 to 108-112, with the exact same effort in my swing. If anything I felt like I was swinging easier.  My accuracy wasn't horrible and I was hittting the ball really straight and much farther.  I was really encouraged by the preliminary results and the initial feel.  I haven't had time to look at the data, but I'm going to venture a guess and say this thing is going to stay.  I'm going try a more forgiving head too and will keep you all updated if you want, let my know!  I can go into my detail regarding the adjustments if anyone is interested. 

[myherobobhope]

I'm playing a 46 inch driver and like it... if I go shorter, I don't feel as comfortable over the ball, so I don't gain much in terms of dispersion (as I'm not comfortable) and lose swing speed... Pretty much lose, lose...

I also have a 48 inch Adams driver with a House of Forged shaft in it...it's pretty fun, but hard to hit! I need to get it back on the range, as I haven't swung it in a while... 

Going over 46 inches requires playing with head weights and getting specialty shafts in my experience... You CAN do it, it's just not easy. 

I believe ACCRA has gotten into longer shafts... it will be interesting to see if OEMs start offering 46-47 options in the fitting cart to give people a chance to try them.