Rory McIlroy says that Greens Books should be banned

[M. Parsons]

So, there was a thread about Arm Locking needing to be banned because a Tour player said so...so now here is the next iteration of what needs to be banned in golf.  Rory says that reading books should be eliminated, "it's just taking away a skill that takes time and practice"

Personally I think this is getting a bit ridiculous, I mean what's next?  I'm sure someone will say that we should not be able to put a line on our balls anymore.  What are your thoughts guys? 

[PMookie]

I’m not for banning a whole lot of things, but I do agree with getting rid of the green books. I think this would be the “great separator” of talent on Tour, and I think it was what was intended when golf first started. Reading greens is an art, and for folks like me who don’t do it well visually, AimPoint has been a big help. Yeah, get rid of the books.

[MyWifesSwingCoach]

Anyone who is better than me must not be allowed to be better than me because reasons such and such... BRING ON THE RULES CHANGES!!!!!!!

No but seriously though, I am not for banning things generally. Something like armlock would target a small number of players, greens books on the other hand would target all players... Bottom line, I don't care either way lol

[M. Parsons]

5 minutes ago, MyWifesSwingCoach said:

Anyone who is better than me must not be allowed to be better than me because reasons such and such... BRING ON THE RULES CHANGES!!!!!!!

No but seriously though, I am not for banning things generally. Something like armlock would target a small number of players, greens books on the other hand would target all players... Bottom line, I don't care either way lol

Yeah, and I'm pretty sure the Tour hands those greens books out to all the players as they check-in...whereas I would have to probably have to pay for something like that.  I know Golf Logix has greens books for purchase, and I have a couple of those.  They help out some, but you still have to determine the starting line and speed yourself, which is what confuses me about what McIlroy said about them taking the skill out of the game.  Also, on a side note, the Tour players have caddies to help them read greens, and the Tour also marks the spot for the hole for the following round...so that's usually the first thing the caddie looks for when they walk up to the green, so he can mark it down in his book...then he reads the current putt his player has. 

[THEZIPR23]

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2021/06/16/pga-tour-green-reading-books-outlaw-next-season/

 

THEY ARE GONE!

But who cares, there is no statistical evidence that I am aware of that they have helped. Just like anchoring or armlock. 

[DaveP043]

I wouldn't mind seeing them eliminated, and I think the Ruling Bodies agree, in general, but they couldn't find a way to write that rule without eliminating all course diagrams and yardage books.  So what they did is to limit the scale of any drawings, and the size of the individual pages.  I'm fine with the limitations on size and scale that the Rules now apply.    

And as I clicked to post this, @THEZIPR23 posted the link saying that the Tour will outlaw them next season.  I'll be interested to read any rule that they eventually issue.  To some extent, this Condition of Competition would ban something that is expressly permitted under the Rules of Golf, something the PGA Tour has generally tried to avoid.

Edited June 16, 2021 by DaveP043
new info posted

[cnosil]

I have read the articles and how the players are paying $170 for them and how Augusta didn’t allow them, etc.  I really think there are some missing details.   My interpretation of this ban is that players will no longer be able to purchase and use commercially made green books that companies like puttview, strakaline, and golflogix make.  Essentially topography maps of the greens that show slopes and slope percentages.   Players and caddies will still have the option to build their own green charts with the information they want. Players were able to and did this at Augusta.  I wish the articles or someone would clarify what is really meant by a green reading book.  

[cnosil]

12 minutes ago, THEZIPR23 said:

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2021/06/16/pga-tour-green-reading-books-outlaw-next-season/

 

THEY ARE GONE!

But who cares, there is no statistical evidence that I am aware of that they have helped. Just like anchoring or armlock. 

Not quite gone but most likely gone after the next vote

[THEZIPR23]

23 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I wouldn't mind seeing them eliminated, and I think the Ruling Bodies agree, in general, but they couldn't find a way to write that rule without eliminating all course diagrams and yardage books.  So what they did is to limit the scale of any drawings, and the size of the individual pages.  I'm fine with the limitations on size and scale that the Rules now apply.    

And as I clicked to post this, @THEZIPR23 posted the link saying that the Tour will outlaw them next season.  I'll be interested to read any rule that they eventually issue.  To some extent, this Condition of Competition would ban something that is expressly permitted under the Rules of Golf, something the PGA Tour has generally tried to avoid.

I tend to agree that the USGA/RA will struggle with correct wording or enforceability of the rule. My guess is that they will just be banned on the Tour. Will be an interesting test case because the tour doesn't run all the events and like you said have avoided this type of ruling in the past. 

[revkev]

I heard today on Sirius that they are gone.  If it takes another vote it seems they will be because the first vote was overwhelming.  

 

On the one hand I'm happy as it should speed up play (unless csnoil is correct and they are allowed to make their own) on the other hand I'm wondering how you still allow yardage books while banning green books.  I'm certainly not nor have I have been at a level where a yardage book has helped beyond front/middle/back - I really only need front/middle - middle/back and that's about my shot making ability - actually I'd probably be wisest to take the middle every time and play for it.  

 

Sirius was funny because they were saying if Bryson is for it, the tour will ban it - no more one length clubs.

[DaveP043]

23 minutes ago, cnosil said:

 I wish the articles or someone would clarify what is really meant by a green reading book.  

I think Interpretation 4.3a/1 gives an idea of the level of detail that is allowed right now.  You can find examples of the Straka and similar books

 

8 minutes ago, THEZIPR23 said:

My guess is that they will just be banned on the Tour.

The Tour will have the same problem, how do you eliminate one type of paper mapping without eliminating ALL paper mapping?

Edited June 16, 2021 by DaveP043

[LICC]

I don't see the big deal about green books. Knowing how a green breaks shouldn't have to be some secret that you have to figure out while playing in a tournament.

[Middler]

4 hours ago, PMookie said:

I’m not for banning a whole lot of things, but I do agree with getting rid of the green books. I think this would be the “great separator” of talent on Tour, and I think it was what was intended when golf first started. Reading greens is an art, and for folks like me who don’t do it well visually, AimPoint has been a big help. Yeah, get rid of the books.

+1. I'll be surprised if they ban them, and I noted the link above. I'm for anything that reduces the time players take - some of them are ridiculous on greens.

[cnosil]

3 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I think Interpretation 4.3a/1 gives an idea of the level of detail that is allowed right now.  You can find examples of the Straka and similar books

 

Understand that.   They are generically saying green reading books.   Does that prevent a player and caddie from going to each green and making  their own notes about the green to include slopes.  Or does it mean that I can't buy one of the straka books and use it.   Two different things.   Augusta doesn't allow any companies to map their greens therefore all that exists is books with players notes.  

[DaveP043]

5 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Understand that.   They are generically saying green reading books.   Does that prevent a player and caddie from going to each green and making  their own notes about the green to include slopes.  Or does it mean that I can't buy one of the straka books and use it.   Two different things.   Augusta doesn't allow any companies to map their greens therefore all that exists is books with players notes.  

This is a part of that Interpretation:

Quote

Hand drawn or written information about a putting green is only allowed if contained in a book or paper meeting the size limit and written by the player and/or his or her caddie.

So the players are allowed to use their own notes from previous rounds, including practice rounds.  I believe the Straka and other commercial books are done within the size and scale limits allowed under the Rules.

[cnosil]

21 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

This is a part of that Interpretation:

So the players are allowed to use their own notes from previous rounds, including practice rounds.  I believe the Straka and other commercial books are done within the size and scale limits allowed under the Rules.

Sounds like you are interpreting this as anything currently allowed under that interpretation.   I am not sure that is what they are actually what they are going to do.  Especially after saying there would be no green reading books allowed at augusta.  I am thinking they will say that the book can only contain a scaled outline of the greens shape and everything else must be notes made by player or caddie. 

[revkev]

I don’t see how you legislate this fairly. It will be very interesting to see what finally comes out. 

[GolfSpy_SHARK]

4 hours ago, cnosil said:

I have read the articles and how the players are paying $170 for them and how Augusta didn’t allow them, etc.  I really think there are some missing details.   My interpretation of this ban is that players will no longer be able to purchase and use commercially made green books that companies like puttview, strakaline, and golflogix make.  Essentially topography maps of the greens that show slopes and slope percentages.   Players and caddies will still have the option to build their own green charts with the information they want. Players were able to and did this at Augusta.  I wish the articles or someone would clarify what is really meant by a green reading book.  

This was my question, I honestly didn’t even know these were pre built for them I thought all the greens books were made by caddie and co during practice rounds (shows how much I pay attention to the tour)

Now that I have the info definitely ban the pre made ones I guess? I could see it go either way it’ll be a major stink I’m sure 

[Titleist87]

"it's just taking away a skill that takes time and practice"

Similar cavity-back irons and 460cc titanium and carbon fiber drivers. Go back to persimmon and blades with the same argument? 

[DaveP043]

30 minutes ago, Lacassem said:

This was my question, I honestly didn’t even know these were pre built for them I thought all the greens books were made by caddie and co during practice rounds (shows how much I pay attention to the tour)

Now that I have the info definitely ban the pre made ones I guess? I could see it go either way it’ll be a major stink I’m sure 

There's a long history of commercially available yardage books, and they've included indications of slopes and terrain for as long as I can remember.  What changed was laser surveys of green contours, the computer technology to interpret that as contour lines and slope percentages, and the systems (like Aimpoint) to effectively use that stuff.  How do you ban one type of information (slopes and contours) but allow the more traditional stuff, like general indications of contours?  I'm interested to see how the Tour decides to word their new rules.

But that article says that it wasn't a close vote, the vast majority of players at the meeting wanted to ban the greens books, so maybe just a minor stink.

[fixyurdivot]

I think the green reading books need to go as well.  Play it from memory... we do.

[LICC]

11 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

I think the green reading books need to go as well.  Play it from memory... we do.

Why? Should yardage books not be allowed as well? I just don't see why the breaks of a green need to be a secret.

[RickyBobby_PR]

12 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

I think the green reading books need to go as well.  Play it from memory... we do.

Amateurs aren’t playing for a living and a putt made or missed doesn’t have a large impact on their living.

I would hate to lose resources at my job that allow me to have information readily available rather than have to go off memory. 

[StrokerAce]

...and just like that. 

Good for them!

 

PGA Tour players vote to outlaw green-reading books, ban likely

SAN DIEGO — The PGA Tour is likely to ban the controversial green-reading books used by many of its players before the start of next season, Golfweek has learned. The Tour’s Player Advisory Council voted to outlaw the books at a meeting two weeks ago. Support for the ban among the 16 players who comprise the Council was described by one person who was present as “overwhelming.”

The issue will now be voted on by the full board of the PGA Tour, perhaps as early as next week.

Green-reading books have grown in popularity in recent years with almost every elite Tour player using them, even some who have advocated banning the aid. Critics say the books offer too much assistance, effectively negating the skill of reading putts. The books feature highly detailed illustrations that note the direction and degree of slope from anywhere on the putting surface.

Bryson DeChambeau, a famously data-driven player, is among the most faithful users of the guides. The Masters is the only tournament that does not permit their use.

The Players Advisory Council met at the Memorial Tournament in Ohio on Tuesday, June 1. Jon Rahm, one of its members, joined the meeting virtually because he was subject to contract tracing for a Covid-19 exposure. He later tested positive and was forced to withdraw before the final round of the event when he held a six-stroke lead. The PAC is currently chaired by Rory McIlroy and includes players like Justin Thomas, Billy Horschel and Zach Johnson.

Sep 6, 2020; Atlanta, Georgia, USA; Dustin Johnson chefs his yardage book at the on the 9th green during the third round of the Tour Championship golf tournament at East Lake Golf Club. Mandatory Credit: Adam Hagy-USA TODAY Sports

PAC meetings are also usually attended by the four most recent past chairs of the Council, a group that currently includes Jordan Spieth, Charley Hoffman, James Hahn and Kevin Kisner. All four are player directors on the board of the PGA Tour.

One player who was present at the meeting said support for the ban was strong.

“It was overwhelming. It wasn’t close,” he said. The player requested anonymity because PAC members are not authorized to publicly discuss their deliberations.

“The books should be banned,” the player added. “Green reading is a skill to be learned.”

The books also get a decidedly mixed reception among caddies on Tour. One veteran looper who has worked for multiple major winners welcomed the effort to ban them. “We’ll save $170 a week,” he cracked, referring to the purchase price of the book. “Also it will speed up play. I’m sure of that.”

“I used to caddie for a player and when I asked him if he wanted a greens book for the week he said, “Of course I do! It will save me from bending over,” recalled another Tour bagman. “That says it all.”

The vote by players now moves the issue before the full board of the PGA Tour, which will decide whether to vote on and ratify the motion. A source familiar with the procedures of the Board said there is rarely a great deal of debate at the board level when an issue has overwhelming support from the PAC.

One member of the PAC told Golfweek that he expects the ban will be implemented in time for the 2021-2022 season. That season begins in just three months after the FedEx Cup playoffs conclude in September. The full board of the PGA Tour is scheduled to meet on June 22 in Connecticut at the Travelers Championship. That is the only board meeting that is planned before the start of the ’21-’22 season, meaning a vote to ban the green-reading books may come as early as next week.

[GolfSpy_SHARK]

32 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Amateurs aren’t playing for a living and a putt made or missed doesn’t have a large impact on their living.

I would hate to lose resources at my job that allow me to have information readily available rather than have to go off memory. 

I like this point. Different angle of thinking, If I didn't have a work order management system forget it my job would be a nightmare. 

[GolfSpy_APH]

Rather then commenting on the ban itself or whether it should or shouldn't be happening I want to focus on the other part of it. We have had several discussions in threads about putting and the strokes involved, with that also comes the ability to read the green.

This for me is my favorite part of putting. Visualizing how I want the putt to drop, I see break do I want to hit it firm and take some of the break away and have it drop fast center cup or should I play the break and use it often with the risk of it taking too much and maybe using the side of the cup. 

The ability to read a green and its contours as well as speed is an important part of being a good putter. Of course speed as well and grains, but this is so important to me and what separates some of the best putters in the world. I won't be sad to see pre-made or purchased green books go away, as I think it will assist in identifying the best all around putters. From consistency of stroke week in and week out, as well as under pressure, but also in their creativity and ability to see whats happening. That also has not a thing to say of wind and how that factors in. Either way I think it could be a great separator and we will see some truly special putters rise to the occasion when this is finalized. 

I could go into a curling analogy again, but to keep it simple the ability to read ice and how it is changing, moving and how the stones are reacting to the conditions is what separates the best skips in the world from the rest. This is in large part to why I think this will be a unique change and one that won't truly hurt the best putters out there as they will have that ability and be able to overcome any change in having a green book or not. 

[cnosil]

12 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

I think the green reading books need to go as well.  Play it from memory... we do.

We don’t have to,. There is nothing preventing you from buying or making a green reading book.   Even one of the most recent MGS tests is for a rangefinder that provides green mapping.  Do you think they should get pin sheets at the beginning of the round that gives exact pin location?

 

1 hour ago, LICC said:

Why? Should yardage books not be allowed as well? I just don't see why the breaks of a green need to be a secret.

I agree with you on this.  I don’t think they are saying it can’t be a secret but they are trying to regulate how the information is obtained. If the player/caddie personally obtains and documents the information by walking the greens it is fine, but they won’t be allowed to buy commercially available green reading books and use those on the course.    

 

20 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

I would hate to lose resources at my job that allow me to have information readily available rather than have to go off memory. 

This is the the big question.  It isn’t about memory; is there a difference between buying a book with this information and doing a personal green study and building it yourself?  I believe the latter will still be available if they ban the books.  Also, based on you having resources to do your job,. Why not allow rangefinders at all tournaments, let the rangefinders measure slope distance, let them have access to wind and weather information, etc.. 

1 minute ago, StrokerAce said:

...and just like that. 

Good for them!

 

The issue will now be voted on by the full board of the PGA Tour, perhaps as early as next week.

 

 

 

This was the article that started the discussion.  Not banned yet but most likely will be as another vote is needed  I don’t think there is a common understanding in this community on what a green reading book really is.  

[cnosil]

2 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

This for me is my favorite part of putting. Visualizing how I want the putt to drop, I see break do I want to hit it firm and take some of the break away and have it drop fast center cup or should I play the break and use it often with the risk of it taking too much and maybe using the side of the cup. 

The ability to read a green and its contours as well as speed is an important part of being a good putter. Of course speed as well and grains, but this is so important to me and what separates some of the best putters in the world. I won't be sad to see pre-made or purchased green books go away, as I think it will assist in identifying the best all around putters.

You talk about visualizing.  How about feel good the read;  is aimpoint acceptable?  Can a player go to the course and build his own green book to use for the tournament?  Can a player write things down in a book as they play the course.  Does a player have to start with a blank book at the beginning of each tournament ?

you qualified it in the last sentence; you are thinking like I am that it is the commercially available books that are what is being banned. 

[LICC]

3 minutes ago, cnosil said:

You talk about visualizing.  How about feel good the read;  is aimpoint acceptable?  Can a player go to the course and build his own green book to use for the tournament?  Can a player write things down in a book as they play the course.  Does a player have to start with a blank book at the beginning of each tournament ?

you qualified it in the last sentence; you are thinking like I am that it is the commercially available books that are what is being banned. 

I agree. The pros are going out before hand in practice and rolling balls from different spots to learn the breaks and rolls.

@GolfSpy_APHTo me, the skill is in how you roll the ball using the slope or break, not trying to guess if the slope or break is there.

[GolfSpy_APH]

1 minute ago, cnosil said:

You talk about visualizing.  How about feel good the read;  is aimpoint acceptable?  Can a player go to the course and build his own green book to use for the tournament?  Can a player write things down in a book as they play the course.  Does a player have to start with a blank book at the beginning of each tournament ?

you qualified it in the last sentence; you are thinking like I am that it is the commercially available books that are what is being banned. 

I'll put it this way and I am sorry for all who don't know curling, but it has a huge impact on how I see this. 

In curling there are a lot of variables to how a sheet of ice will play. When you go into a building or event there is no book on ice will be this stones will be this. We have practice's before tournaments where we can get a feel for the ice and stones. Often these conditions are similar to games, but maybe a little different as well as ice can change game to game day to day, much like golf as the day goes on the course changes. 

When we go to a rink to play we often have homemade note books on different aspects of the building (sheets on the walls or sides are often different then middle sheets), stones (some curl more then others, some are slower or faster and so on) as well as the ice and even sometimes outside conditions. Throughout an event or time there we build basically a mini record of all the different things we noticed and experienced. This I think is more then fair if it was applied to golf and greenbooks, if someone wants to go to the green keeper and ask them what they are seeing what they are doing, take extra practices rounds and take the time to do the research and build a book for themselves great! That is extra effort they are doing and in the end they still have to acclimate to the conditions of the day and read the green. 

Hopefully that all makes sense. I agree it would be hard to ban greenbooks all together because then yardage books would have to go out the window and it would cascade into many other things, but having to pony up X amount for a green book where you haven't put the work or effort into making I am okay with.