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Successes Translating Putter Fitting Results to Course?


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Based on various posts and recommendations on this site, I decided it would be a good investment to get a putter fitting.  I've been told I'm a decent putter (my USGA stats show 28-29 putts per round over the last two years), but I have been curious about why I gravitated to certain putters, if they were right for me and if not was there something better.  So on a recent family trip, I scheduled a fitting at Club Champion in Rochester, New York. 

I always thought I had a basic straight back/straight through putting stroke, but the actual data couldn't been farther from the truth.  I actually had strong arc with moderate rotation.  One question was answered quickly at that combination suggested mallet putter which I've typically migrated to.  I also found my existing Brainstorm Happy V1 mallet putter set up and my stroke yielded too much of a launch angle and created back spin.  My rotation consistency was only 22% and my overall consistency was 67%.  At that point, I started questioning how I ever got the ball in the cup!

After trying several different putters, I felt I putted the best with an  Evnroll ER10 Outback (even though the only demo was an inch shorter than I needed).  My fitter tweaked it closer to my specifications and I gave it a try with the monitor.  The predicted launch angle reduced creating a more neutral spin, consistency improved significantly to 88% and yielded an "Overall consistency is high" comment on the report.  I decided to pull the trigger and purchased the Evnroll putter as an early birthday present to myself.  It's due in early July.

I'm sure many of you who had been through a putter fitting can share similar a similar story of improved numbers.  My question is after your new or tweaked putter was put into play, how much of the fitting improved consistency actually translated to improved putting performance?  I know there are many factors that influence overall putting performance, but did you see a sustained overall improvement with a fitted putter?

Thank you in advance.

Ping G400 SFT driver with a Matrix MFS 5 Korean Prototype Senior shaft, 12 degrees
Mizuno GT180 3 wood, with a Tensei CK Blue 50 gram senior shaft
Callaway GBB Epic Heavenwood, with a Mitsubishi Diamana 50 grams senior shaft  
Ping G 20.5 degree 7 wood, with a stock Alta 65 gram senior shaft
Ping G hybrid 5 (26 degrees) with stock Alta 70 gram senior shaft
Ping G30 irons 6-W, Yellow dot with graphite Fujikura EXS 60i R2-Flex shafts
Edison wedges:  50 degrees, 55 degrees and 60 degrees, 2 degrees up with KBS Tour Graphite A flex shafts
Putters:  L.A.B. Direct Force 2.1 putter, 34.5" long, 67 degrees lie
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It's been almost 20 years since my experience, but at the time I obsessively tracked all of my stats, so I have data. It took a month to adjust, but after that I went from 32ish putts per round to just under 28. For just under $100 I dropped my handicap by 4 strokes! Best golf money I ever spent. I still use the same putter. I started a lesson series last fall, and my instructor took a look at my putting, and after just a few minutes told me, "Don't ever let anybody change a damn thing."

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I had never had a putter fitting.  Not trusting being fitted on the flat artificial turf ( just me ).  If the putter fitting is all but determining the length and lie ( how it soles ), all that's left is to find the right balance ( feel ) for rolling the golf ball.  The feel part is what can not be fitted ( not could it be taught ); then, how much fitting charge for the putter ?  Would it be just another way of generating revenue, since the Fitting Craze hit the scene recently ?

Had gone through most of, if not all of the different style of putter heads, shafts and grips.  The possession of the different style of putters was not because of the result from continuation of the search for the one which works better for me.   It's mainly out of the desire to own, rather than the needs.  Yes, I still have all the putters I acquired, except for a couple which I gifted to friends.

I would be interested in learning the actual results/experience from a putter fitting, shared by the members here.  Unless there was something ill fitted in the first place, like the the misunderstanding of the fundamentals of putting, or basic misfit from length/lie and feel/ balance.  All that matter to me was just how the ball rolls and the perceived putting line vs. actual targeted line.  

 

 

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1 hour ago, release said:

I would be interested in learning the actual results/experience from a putter fitting, shared by the members here.  Unless there was something ill fitted in the first place, like the the misunderstanding of the fundamentals of putting, or basic misfit from length/lie and feel/ balance.  All that matter to me was just how the ball rolls and the perceived putting line vs. actual targeted line.  

I have gone through several fittings and had my stroke measured on Puttlab a few times and as part of most wanted testing evaluate a large variety of putters.   I will start off by saying I have a little different opinion on putter fitting than you seem to have;  I believe the putter can make a difference in putting performance.   I learned a lot about putting from Bruce Rearick who has done extensive research on putting and how putters influence the putting stroke.   

you seem to fall into the approach that you adapt yourself to the putter.  Basically given a putter you will figure out how to use it effectively which in many cases will require some kind of manipulation to control distance and or start line.  
 

your statement about feel and balance seems to indicate that you believe that the putter can make a difference and that a fitting is needed.   This is the approach that is based on the thought that each person has a natural stroke and that we should find a putter that moves properly through the stroke to achieve good distance and start line control.  The benefit of this is that under pressure the person isn’t relying on stroke compensations.   When I test a lot of different putter configurations (hosel, offset, weight, CoG) i find that the performance of each putter can vary considerably.  Some don’t rotate as much so I miss right, others rotate too much so I miss left, and others make it difficult to control tempo so I struggle with distance.  
 

Some players say they are “feel” players but that is something that is foreign to me.  Feel in my mind comes from repeating mechanics to build knowledge.  That knowledge is feel and gives me the ability to repeat the stroke for a condition.  Kind of like throwing a ball;  we build feel on how far a ball will go when we throw it by repeatedly throwing it.   If I give you a ball that is very light or very heavy and you have no experience you try to adapt based on past experiences.  If a person is truly a 100% feel player I should be able to put a ball down on any green give them a distance and they should be able to roll it that far without any practice.   I personally think people confuse feel with experience.   Players also may not want to get their stroke measured and know the mechanics that they use because of how their brain would process that information.  I believe all players fall somewhere between 100% feel and 100%mechanical with few if any being on the extremes.   
 

you mention the “fundamentals of putting;” curious what you consider to be the fundamentals.   Eyes over the ball? Neutral ball position and path? Shoulder stroke? Square setup?  I ask because if we look at people that are considered to be great putters they all accomplish putting differently with different setups, strokes, and putters .
 

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Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15*  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
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Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :titleist-small: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite
Putter:   :seemore-small: mFGP2

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2 hours ago, cnosil said:

Quote " I have gone through several fittings and had my stroke measured on Puttlab a few times and as part of most wanted testing evaluate a large variety of putters.   I will start off by saying I have a little different opinion on putter fitting than you seem to have;  I believe the putter can make a difference in putting performance.   I learned a lot about putting from Bruce Rearick who has done extensive research on putting and how putters influence the putting stroke. "  

Putter can and will make a difference to individual at a given time.  Unfortunately, we, as human do not have a constant performance in anything.  Anyone been playing this game for awhile could honestly tell you that each day is different on the same golf course with the same putter.  Not to sell the human side weak, it's amazing how we could adapt and adjust given the sense of urgency.  If someone try to sell you the idea that we could be fitted one way forever, then you can buy that.  I'm just not interested in debating and beat a dead horse.

Quote "you seem to fall into the approach that you adapt yourself to the putter.  Basically given a putter you will figure out how to use it effectively which in many cases will require some kind of manipulation to control distance and or start line."  When I was a newbie, perhaps, back then, I had no clue of the art of putting.  I could, figure out how to use a tool, but, some just more reliable than the others on certain days with the playing condition.  
 

Quote "your statement about feel and balance seems to indicate that you believe that the putter can make a difference and that a fitting is needed.   This is the approach that is based on the thought that each person has a natural stroke and that we should find a putter that moves properly through the stroke to achieve good distance and start line control.  The benefit of this is that under pressure the person isn’t relying on stroke compensations.   When I test a lot of different putter configurations (hosel, offset, weight, CoG) i find that the performance of each putter can vary considerably.  Some don’t rotate as much so I miss right, others rotate too much so I miss left, and others make it difficult to control tempo so I struggle with distance."

Of course I believe the right putter ( for the time, present " will make a difference on performance.  So it seems to convinced everyone.  There is no natural putting stroke, IMHO.   Every thing we do in this game is against how we should use our body.  For a non-contact sports, it sure caused a lot of injury,  The more one use one's body to the maximum in this sports, the quicker the injury will result.   There is the correct way of using the tool, and with practice and practice and practice.  So, it'll be a second nature when standing over a putt, automatically mentally adjusting to the texture of the putting surface, the contour and modulation the calculated speed and break.  The vision and the eye-hand coordination dictate the percentage of successful outcome.  Of which the eye- hand coordination could be trained to improve to some degree.    
 

Quote "Some players say they are “feel” players but that is something that is foreign to me.  Feel in my mind comes from repeating mechanics to build knowledge.  That knowledge is feel and gives me the ability to repeat the stroke for a condition.  Kind of like throwing a ball;  we build feel on how far a ball will go when we throw it by repeatedly throwing it.   If I give you a ball that is very light or very heavy and you have no experience you try to adapt based on past experiences.  If a person is truly a 100% feel player I should be able to put a ball down on any green give them a distance and they should be able to roll it that far without any practice.   I personally think people confuse feel with experience.   Players also may not want to get their stroke measured and know the mechanics that they use because of how their brain would process that information.  I believe all players fall somewhere between 100% feel and 100%mechanical with few if any being on the extremes." 

It's agreed between all the famous instructors from day one that the "feel" is the most difficult to transpire to their students.  How does one teach the "feel" of a shot or a putt to someone else who had not experienced it ?  Can one say that one felt the putting line should break and rapidly doing so at the last foot of the 20' lag ?  How does the other "feel" that ?  Feel, is an accumulation of the experience, of which amassed through the past.   If you had been a teacher, of any subject matter, you would understand not every student is created equal.  There is no one formula which suit every student to bring out their best. 

Quote "you mention the “fundamentals of putting;” curious what you consider to be the fundamentals.   Eyes over the ball? Neutral ball position and path? Shoulder stroke? Square setup?  I ask because if we look at people that are considered to be great putters they all accomplish putting differently with different setups, strokes, and putters ."

IMHO, the fundamental of this game is to advance the little white ( or colored ) golf ball toward the cup and send it to the bottom of the cup.  To advance the golf ball with the potential of individual's ability involves delivering the club face to the golf ball in an individually efficient way , different in driver to the shorter sticks and most definitely different from a swing club to a putter.  It'll take a long while to explain which most of the experienced golfer already know, just not putting the details together.  Just go pounder upon the differenced between a stroke and a swing.

Golf ball comes off the putter face dose not need to travel far.  How does one determine the direction and the speed ?  It's really simple, and may take one person just minutes to "get it" and the other person will be a lifetime to figure it out.  Experience of line/speed could be practiced and harnessed.  The vision part which connect your eye sight to your central nervous system then back to the body for execution can not be learned.  It can be enhanced but not changed.

The heel shafted, center shafted, toe/heel balanced, face balanced, the total static weigh........ not to go into the degree of Toe-Hang.... all has something to do with that little putting stroke we execute.  Do it the right way without fighting the putter with it's designed root will make the putting more repeatable.  That's another story.

Sorry bud, you asked a question which could not and should not be explained in sentences.  Have to go for now.  

2 hours ago, cnosil said:

  

 

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27 minutes ago, release said:

Sorry bud, you asked a question which could not and should not be explained in sentences.  Have to go for now.  

 

Some people just don’t want to be fit because it will mess with their mindset too much; you sound like that kind of person.  You and I just see things differently related to the putting stroke and fitting based on our experiences.  

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Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15*  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :titleist-small: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite
Putter:   :seemore-small: mFGP2

Backups:  :taylormade-small:TM-180, :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, Bellum Winmore 787, logo-horizontal-black.svg Directed Force 2.1 

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

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Actually about to go for one down at Spargo once my injured hand heals up. Had one at club champion at the time i was gaming a nike method mc-02w or whatever the classic answer style was at 34". The SAM told me i was great putter and club champion tried to tell me a scotty with all the same settings (length, loft, lie) would be better. I opted to ignore this. Got a whole bag fitting at golf and ski and we squeezed the putter in twoards the end. At this point i was gaming a 34" answer and was told a thicker grip, 2-3" extension and flatter would help. Neither fitting i left with an actual exact spec or even exact tweaks to perform. As a result i basically ignored both fittings. Doing my own DIY fitting now more to evaluate my stroke. Eventually going to find my way to a full putter fitting hopefully from scratch to get a hard spec.

Driver: :callaway-small: Rogue Sub Zero 10.5* Oban Kiyoshi Gold tipped 1" 44.5" NDMC Mid

4w: :callaway-small: Epic flash Oban Kiyoshi Gold tipped 2" 42.5" NDMC Mid

3-PW: :mizuno-small:  MP-18, 3i FLYhi MMC, 4-6i MMC, 7-PW MB, KBS C-taper Lite X-stiff NDMC Mid

Wedges: :titelist-small:  SM7 49*F, 54*D, 59*M KBS C-taper Lite X-stiff NDMC Mid

Putter:  Lajosi Sensor Breakthrough Golf Tour Stability Shaft 34" SuperStroke GTR 1.0

Ball: :Snell:MTB-X

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6 hours ago, cnosil said:

Some people just don’t want to be fit because it will mess with their mindset too much; you sound like that kind of person.  You and I just see things differently related to the putting stroke and fitting based on our experiences.  

I have no issue with a different point of view, especially with golf since I'm not making a living on this subject.  Love this game since it is, a "show it to me" and not just drawing vector lines on the frames of video.  If someone tells me that they air their 3 wood 230 yards, fine, show it to me. 

You probably already know that there is constant disagreement between the ranked teaching professionals of how the process of relating the knowledge of golf to the students.  There is no -one and only correct way of doing things.  When dealing with refining the better players' skill of swing clubs or putter.  More and more instructors will not allow one student to participate in the other's session.  And if you're not in a group lesson and the instructor basically recital the same lesson from player to player, run and hold tight to your wallet. 

For a very simple reason, they are not beginners who is picking up the basic.  No group lessons there.  What one player needs might be very different than the next and the lesson might be just a reminder of what they already knew.

Why worry about "messing up the mind set" ? if the mind set is obviously not working or not reaching the potential ?  Even after explaining the proven method to the mass, some will never "get it".  And for the most part, they really don't need to know at their current level of the game.  Too much medicine might kill a patient !  I would not put a Formula One vehicle in the hands of a street racer.

The best lesson I personally had, more than 40 years ago, was mostly all taking.  At the time I was confused and not really happy and believing the instructor was "wasting" my time , not watching me hit balls but talking about the golf swing most of the time.    I realized much later that, it was the best golf lesson I had had.  The definition of fundamental of anything will be quite different from each individual's perspective.  Like peeling onion, some can only go a few layers and then tear-out.  Nothing wrong with it, as long as one could improve and enjoy the game.

The mentality of wanting to know, everything, right this moment, will not work with this game.  Some of the understanding will have to come from the individual experience.  

A good golf instructor is not, a magician.  One has to marry the physical ability to the understanding of the basics in this game, then practice to join them together.  So don't expect a fitting of equipment will perform magic to one's golf game.  Don't blame the instructor who did not show you how this game really is by giving lessons in human anatomy and how to apply it to move the club head in a efficient manner while max out one's physical potential.  BTW, no golf instructors I know will warn their students of the consequences of injury and physical debilitation which will come with the dedication to this game.

I believe we're very close to doing that, maxing out our mortal ability.  Just watch the injury occurred from the Touring Pros getting younger and younger in age, at a more devastating damage.  If one could muscle the 5 iron ( comparing to the old 3 iron ) 220 yards +, then enjoy it, because these days will be gone, soon, before one gets old in age. 

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On 6/28/2021 at 6:58 AM, release said:

I had never had a putter fitting.  Not trusting being fitted on the flat artificial turf ( just me ).  If the putter fitting is all but determining the length and lie ( how it soles ), all that's left is to find the right balance ( feel ) for rolling the golf ball.  The feel part is what can not be fitted ( not could it be taught ); then, how much fitting charge for the putter ?  Would it be just another way of generating revenue, since the Fitting Craze hit the scene recently ?

 

Launch monitors like Trackman or Quintic can capture and measure the "quality of roll" on the golf ball to compare different putters. This is mostly done indoors, but a Trackman could be setup on a putting green. This quality of roll (bounce/skid vs roll) was one of my primary considerations during a recent fitting. It also showed during testing as missed putts finishing closer to the hole due to better distance control. This improvement in speed control through fitting has contributed to a 50% reduction in 3-putts this year for me compared to last year. 

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