NPG Episode 86: Does the Shaft REALLY Matter? ft. Mark Crossfield

[GolfSpy MPR]

Duration: 00:38:29

Mark Crossfield, sometimes fondly referred to as the Grandfather of YouTube Golf, joins us to finally put the great shaft debate to rest: Do they really matter?

0:00 - Intro
1:06 - Has the world of YouTube golf changed in a decade?
4:28 - Does letting "the algorithm" choose your content ultimately hurt golfers?
12:33 - What impact does our testing have on consumers?
18:40 - The Great Shaft Debate
32:06 - Mark's verdict on shafts

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Listen Here

[TR1PTIK]

I really enjoyed this one. Thought there were terrific points made on both sides of the debate. The easy conclusion to make is that shafts matter, but probably not as much as golfers want them to matter unless you're on the extreme ends of the bell curve. This definitely explains why Mark can hit pretty much anything, and when I think about my own experience, I'm somewhere close to the same. I've played a variety of clubs with different shaft flexes, lengths, weight, and I can pretty much figure out how to find target with any of them. I have also seen some shaft/head combinations that definitely didn't work such as combos that just don't spin enough for my swing speed, but I can't say I've ever swung a club with a shaft that was "too weak" for me.

[fixyurdivot]

I sure as hell hope they do... I'm currently on a journey through hell completing my upgrade to composite shafts .  I take it the conversation has nothing to do with reducing wear n' tear on the joints and simply ball flight?  I'll need to check it out.

[TR1PTIK]

42 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

I sure as hell hope they do... I'm currently on a journey through hell completing my upgrade to composite shafts .  I take it the conversation has nothing to do with reducing wear n' tear on the joints and simply ball flight?  I'll need to check it out.

That's actually a great point that never came up in the conversation.

[fixyurdivot]

33 minutes ago, TR1PTIK said:

That's actually a great point that never came up in the conversation.

Mark Crossfield will care about that soon enough .  

[Vegan_Golfer_PNW]

15 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

I sure as hell hope they do... I'm currently on a journey through hell completing my upgrade to composite shafts .  I take it the conversation has nothing to do with reducing wear n' tear on the joints and simply ball flight?  I'll need to check it out.

After how sore I feel after 27 holes in 48 hours I am thinking about composites as well. Lmao. And I am a young one!

[GolfSpy_APH]

It was certainly a interesting discussion. I'm definitely in the camp of shafts matter. That being said I have used a lot of different ones over the years and as they stated in the podcast it is more of a feel or preference thing. This likely helps with confidence and therefore helps produce better swings.

There are always going to be debates on the extent to which they matter, but an analogy I wish I had heard them put to Mark was does he do all the editing, camera work, possible scripts and so on with his channel or do he hire someone to work with him who may be better at some of those things? This may have been more personal to Mark and could have helped the argument vs the house or car example. 

In any case it was good to listen to and Mark has enough experience and years of work put in that his opinion should be valued and I was happy to hear that he clarified a little bit of his statements. 

Regardless those who haven't listened to it should give it a listen!

[TR1PTIK]

26 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

It was certainly a interesting discussion. I'm definitely in the camp of shafts matter. That being said I have used a lot of different ones over the years and as they stated in the podcast it is more of a feel or preference thing. This likely helps with confidence and therefore helps produce better swings.

There are always going to be debates on the extent to which they matter, but an analogy I wish I had heard them put to Mark was does he do all the editing, camera work, possible scripts and so on with his channel or do he hire someone to work with him who may be better at some of those things? This may have been more personal to Mark and could have helped the argument vs the house or car example. 

In any case it was good to listen to and Mark has enough experience and years of work put in that his opinion should be valued and I was happy to hear that he clarified a little bit of his statements. 

Regardless those who haven't listened to it should give it a listen!

I'm not sure that putting things in that context would have done much to change Mark's mind.

[GolfSpy_APH]

1 minute ago, TR1PTIK said:

I'm not sure that putting things in that context would have done much to change Mark's mind.

Completely agree. He has his block and is glued to it, which for this argument I think its good to have people on both sides. In the end stock shafts must work well enough because there is still a large majority of golfers that buy OTR and do not get fit. However if they do get fit could they get better numbers with a better shaft? Probably, but maybe not all the time. Again I do believe shafts matter and different specs can help different people. However I do also agree that ego plays a big part in it... I've had the same issue from time to time haha

[Tsecor]

great debate question and depending on strict context, the question can be answered on both sides

a 12 yr old jr golfer does not "need" a 130g x stiff shaft......but could he hit it the same way as a 90g regular flex? sure and I think Mark would agree in this case, the shaft may "matter"

If you put it in context of a 120G R300 vs an S400.......the shaft does not matter.....i fully agree....The body and mind adapts to the slight difference in shafts.

I have been on the course with a few friends and they swear the Low launch vs High Launch debate is real......even though thier ball goes the same distance as one another and the apex is probably within 10 feet of each other......the shaft does NOT matter in this case....

I really enjoyed that debate and that segment......bring in more guests!!!    TXG next?????

 

[cnosil]

I fall on the side of it doesn’t seem to matter for me.  I player 120 gram steel shafts on my irons and switched to 85 gram graphite and don’t see or feel any difference. I have x stiff in my 3 wood but played a regular before that…again don’t feel a difference.   The unchanging factor in the above is me.   Maybe I adapt my swing to the shaft, but I can’t tell and my launch monitor numbers seem to be pretty consistent across shafts.  In its cases I feel as most shafts will be acceptable.  I say most because I have swung Harry’s x-stiff graphite shafts and they just don’t work for me.  

[dlow206]

Shaft weight matters for me, maybe not between 50 to 60 grams for a driver for example. But between a 95 gram shaft and a 130 gram shaft in irons makes a big difference for me. Maybe not when comparing 5 shots with one vs. 5 shots with the other, but over the course of a round, i get more fatigued with heavy iron shafts and then as a result start to do bad things. 

[null]

Love Mark and is one of the best instructors there is.

That being said, sometimes he gets out over his skis and really misses the mark.  He hit that point in this podcast when he started pontificating about golf companies not making their own shafts.

Just complete ignorance when it comes to vertically integrated businesses vs horizontally integrated business, core competencies and supply chains.

I'd love to see his reaction when someone tells him that Samsung makes displays for Apple.  That's right.. .Samsung makes and sells displays to Apple that go into iphones.  

[fixyurdivot]

Just finished this episode and really liked it.  I too enjoy Mark Crossfield and he seems like someone who would be fun to play a track with and chat over a pint. I particularly liked this format and hope MGS Staff will consider doing more of these "featured guest" interviews.

The shaft debate is really about whether shaft flex matters.  Mark gives an example of tests where shaft name/model/flex is blacked out and the majority of testers chose/liked the lighter, R-flex.  This reminds me of tests years ago I participated in with flyrods.  Show the tester it's an off brand from overseas before he casts it and it gets low marks; hide it's pedigree and it will often match or exceed the $1500 make/model.  Ego is a factor that does not add one single benefit to the decision making process.  I also found his point about "why would OEM's spend tons of money and time engineering the head and then simply offload the engine of the club?"  The answer probably does lie in the "it matters (most) at the extremes" position.

 

[TR1PTIK]

57 minutes ago, jlukes said:

Love Mark and is one of the best instructors there is.

That being said, sometimes he gets out over his skis and really misses the mark.  He hit that point in this podcast when he started pontificating about golf companies not making their own shafts.

Just complete ignorance when it comes to vertically integrated businesses vs horizontally integrated business, core competencies and supply chains.

I'd love to see his reaction when someone tells him that Samsung makes displays for Apple.  That's right.. .Samsung makes and sells displays to Apple that go into iphones.  

Agreed. I started to type up a long post explaining why he was wrong on that point, but decided to spare everyone another rehash of my experience in manufacturing lol.   

[fixyurdivot]

1 hour ago, jlukes said:

Just complete ignorance when it comes to vertically integrated businesses vs horizontally integrated business, core competencies and supply chains

He actually did make that distinction when Chris asked about changing his car oil or having his roof done.  That whole discussion is secondary to the specific question/debate (and that he was misquoted). I don't think he is ignorant about the golf industry in the least.

[null]

1 minute ago, fixyurdivot said:

He actually did make that distinction when Chris asked about changing his car oil or having his roof done.  That whole discussion is secondary to the specific question/debate (and that he was misquoted). I don't think he is ignorant about the golf industry in the least.

His kept claiming it was a "business decision" to not internalize everything.

That is exactly the point.  Very few businesses insource everything.

[fixyurdivot]

3 hours ago, rbsiedsc said:

After how sore I feel after 27 holes in 48 hours I am thinking about composites as well. Lmao. And I am a young one!

Chris @Thin2winis young too and does not think he'll ever go back to steel... and the way the Recoils are performing, I wouldn't either.

[RickyBobby_PR]

8 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

The shaft debate is really about whether shaft flex matters.

I think this is really what it boils down to. The lack of standards across the board of what is a certain flex, how it’s even measured makes it hard to say what a flex really is/means. Not to mention the materials used and their alignment on the mandrel impacts how it will play and feel.

If people focused on the weight and the profile of the shaft and not flex or swing speed that fits a flex they would be better off. Unfortunately ego gets in the way and people want a certain letter indicator on their shaft they are going to be biased by anything different 

[null]

3 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

I think this is really what it boils down to. The lack of standards across the board of what is a certain flex, how it’s even measured makes it hard to say what a flex really is/means. Not to mention the materials used and their alignment on the mandrel impacts how it will play and feel.

If people focused on the weight and the profile of the shaft and not flex or swing speed that fits a flex they would be better off. Unfortunately ego gets in the way and people want a certain letter indicator on their shaft they are going to be biased by anything different 

The shaft profile stuff is corrupted by marketing to.  Low launch low spin, high launch mid spin, etc etc.

Makes people think they can move to a low launch low spin shaft and move their numbers down from 16 launch and 3200 spin into a more reasonable window

As an instructor, I can see why that marketing and consumer mindset pisses him off.  

[dlow206]

7 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Chris @Thin2winis young too and does not think he'll ever go back to steel... and the way the Recoils are performing, I wouldn't either.

I think i count as young still, and i am not going back to steel either. 

[fixyurdivot]

1 minute ago, jlukes said:

His kept claiming it was a "business decision" to not internalize everything.

That is exactly the point.  Very few businesses insource everything.

But that whole discussion is secondary to the question.  His example of PING offshoring but effectively controlling the process as if it were in Phoenix was provided... this, like that discussion is moving off track.

[Vegan_Golfer_PNW]

19 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Chris @Thin2winis young too and does not think he'll ever go back to steel... and the way the Recoils are performing, I wouldn't either.

Don’t tempt me

[cnosil]

15 minutes ago, jlukes said:

His kept claiming it was a "business decision" to not internalize everything.

That is exactly the point.  Very few businesses insource everything.

I get that is the point and that is the way most companies do business today since it is too expensive to hire the expertise and the equipment.  His discussion started around the fact that one of the most successful clubs in golf the Ping Eye2 were made with a single shaft and didn’t provide any options.  Companies could produce a single head, shaft, and grip and produce a club that would work for most golfers and   Players don’t need all the options that are provided.  His point really really wasn’t about the manufacturing process.

[fixyurdivot]

2 minutes ago, rbsiedsc said:

Don’t tempt me

Do it!! Fwiw, I really liked the Recoil SMACWRAP ES760 and 780 shafts and would have likely gone with the 760/F3 had I not been "marketed too" for the MMT 80's .

[Thin2win]

I agree with Mark, and I don't. Yes, the stock shaft is a good shaft. The OEM's definitely pick a few shafts that produce good to great results for the big part of the bell curve. And for a big chunk of the curve, finding actual measurable on course between stock and aftermarket would be hard. Our changing swing from one tee to the next introduces a much larger dynamic then a shaft could account for. And I think this is were Mark has drawn the line. For 99% of golfers(self included). the money spent on a new shaft would do much less than money spent on a set of lessons with a good pro. Mark is a great teaching pro and is probably annoyed with the buy a better game gearhead crowd. 

but where I think Mark misses is that with everything, quality does matter. and repeatability does matter. We have all been fit, I just went earlier this year. I tried... I don't know, 10 different shafts. If I just looked at the average distance and spin for them, the numbers would have been nearly identical for the most part. But if you look at the dispersion chart on how it got those numbers, you get some real differences. I definitely saw some that were +/- 15y in distance and +/- 40y in L/R dispersion, and others that were +/- 5y in distance with L/R in the +/- 20y. The averages were the same, but taking the one that hits a smaller target is obviously important for scoring.

The strokes gained on a different shaft are definitely less than the strokes gained on lessons. But there are strokes to be gained, and even if that is only 1 every other round, that is real and 1 per round, 2 per week for a PGA pro is a lot of money. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

22 minutes ago, jlukes said:

The shaft profile stuff is corrupted by marketing to.  Low launch low spin, high launch mid spin, etc etc.

Makes people think they can move to a low launch low spin shaft and move their numbers down from 16 launch and 3200 spin into a more reasonable window

As an instructor, I can see why that marketing and consumer mindset pisses him off.  

Yeah that’s another area that needs improvement. 
 

The flex and the identification of launch and spin profile are kind of necessary evils for the brands to sell clubs off the shelf. But also unfortunately many people including those on forums don’t understand contact points and launch characteristics and they go down a rabbit hole of trying to get a shaft to fix a swing flaw because of how it’s advertised.  
 

If more brands did what Graphite Design does with listing what the “stiffness” is in each section and then include the launch/spin it might help. 
 

I don’t like a stiffer butt end so even if two shafts have the same EI profile but one has a stiffer handle I’m going to along better with the softer handle one 

[RickyBobby_PR]

36 minutes ago, Thin2win said:

but where I think Mark misses is that with everything, quality does matter. and repeatability does matter. We have all been fit, I just went earlier this year. I tried... I don't know, 10 different shafts. If I just looked at the average distance and spin for them, the numbers would have been nearly identical for the most part. But if you look at the dispersion chart on how it got those numbers, you get some real differences. I definitely saw some that were +/- 15y in distance and +/- 40y in L/R dispersion, and others that were +/- 5y in distance with L/R in the +/- 20y. The averages were the same, but taking the one that hits a smaller target is obviously important for scoring.

This dispersion isn’t necessarily quality. This could easily be attributed to the EI profile and/or torque. which would impact weight, feel and how you react to that. Some shafts will have a golfer change their swing without them realizing it. My titleist fitter noted that with two shafts in a fitting I did for the 917. All 3 shafts we narrowed down to gave good numbers but one shaft I felt like I needed to go harder at and another three off my rhythm of the swing.

Most people would be shocked to find out that most shafts don’t use a lot of high end materials and typically only have 1-2 pieces of prepeg that would be considered premium. This is both for cost but also to make sure a shaft isn’t too brittle. The stiff a shaft gets the more brittle it becomes. The t1100 shaft only has 1 flag of t1100 in it. The Fujikura Ventus only has a single 70t flag.  
 

I have a 1 of 1 even flow blue shaft that had the middle layer replaced with a lesser material but two extra flags of it to increase the torque of mine compared to the retail version. It didn’t change the quality or performance one but.

[GolfSpy_APH]

Maybe another good question to ask which can help clarify some of the discussion is have you ever used a shaft in any club that simply just did not work? Most of us have shafts we like or prefer, but what is your experience with shafts that simply don't and what head was used? 

The best example for me was the Callaway Epic irons with steelfiber shafts... honestly I could not hit the face. It was embarrassing with my coworkers when we got them to try. I tried various swings and was just awful, put in a Modus and started flushing them (added some of the longest irons I have ever tried), either way steel fiber and me not friends. The others or XP95's, I had them in my Mizuno JPX EZ Forged, but tried them in various other heads when I worked at a shop and just could not get consistent results with them.  

[Vegan_Golfer_PNW]

1 hour ago, fixyurdivot said:

Do it!! Fwiw, I really liked the Recoil SMACWRAP ES760 and 780 shafts and would have likely gone with the 760/F3 had I not been "marketed too" for the MMT 80's .

If only I could convince my wife that I need a set so I don’t hurt myself. Haha. Although I would probably prefer TGI kbs shafts since I love the feel of the tour steel