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NPG Episode 86: Does the Shaft REALLY Matter? ft. Mark Crossfield


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7 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Chris @Thin2winis young too and does not think he'll ever go back to steel... and the way the Recoils are performing, I wouldn't either.

I think i count as young still, and i am not going back to steel either. 

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Tester for the Titleist TSi Driver

Spring 2020 MGS Tester for the Fujikura Motore X Shaft

Updated 11/13/2021
Driver:titelist-small: TSi 2 - Autoflex
Fairway Woods:titelist-small: TSi2 3 wood, 5 wood - Aldila Ascent 60 S
Irons:titelist-small: T300 5 to SW - LAGP AXS Red 85 Stiff double soft stepped
Wedges:Miura: K-grind 2.0 58 wedge - Xcaliber RT Spin Wedge 100
Putter:  SIK DW Armlock - LAGP 180 armlock shaft

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1 minute ago, jlukes said:

His kept claiming it was a "business decision" to not internalize everything.

That is exactly the point.  Very few businesses insource everything.

But that whole discussion is secondary to the question.  His example of PING offshoring but effectively controlling the process as if it were in Phoenix was provided... this, like that discussion is moving off track.

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:ping-small: G400 SFT, 16 Degree 3w

:ping-small: G400 SFT, 19 Degree 5w

:srixon-small:  ZX5 Irons 4-AW 

:ping-small: Glide 2.0 56 Degree SW   (removed from double secret probation 😍)

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19 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Chris @Thin2winis young too and does not think he'll ever go back to steel... and the way the Recoils are performing, I wouldn't either.

Don’t tempt me

11080D04-6298-4B84-BBCB-3B8CA76D4CC0.png

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Driver: :callaway-small:   Epic Max LS with RDX Blue 70g S (Testing Ventus Velocore Black 6x 44.5")

2H: :callaway-small: Super Hybrid with Tensei Orange Pro Hyb 80 Stiff (Testing Ventus Velocore Blue 8s Hyb)

3H: :Sub70: 939X UST proforce V2 black F5 hybrid soft stepped

4-AW: th.jpg.d6e2abdaeb04f007fd259c979f389de6.jpg  0211  with KBS Tour Stiff 2.5* up 1/4" long Unofficial Review

Wedges     :cleveland-small: Zipcore Tour Rack 54/full and 58/mid (review here)  (Backup 54*,60*: :ping-small:  S Tour KBS Tour Stiff 3* up)

Putter: TAII #2  Review here: TAIII Impact #2 Putter 

Ball: :Snell:MTB-X and :OnCore: vero X1 (Winter ball :titelist-small: proV1 )

 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, jlukes said:

His kept claiming it was a "business decision" to not internalize everything.

That is exactly the point.  Very few businesses insource everything.

I get that is the point and that is the way most companies do business today since it is too expensive to hire the expertise and the equipment.  His discussion started around the fact that one of the most successful clubs in golf the Ping Eye2 were made with a single shaft and didn’t provide any options.  Companies could produce a single head, shaft, and grip and produce a club that would work for most golfers and   Players don’t need all the options that are provided.  His point really really wasn’t about the manufacturing process.

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Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15* set  to 16.5* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 816H1 19* set at 18* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  21*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
               :titelist-small: 915H 24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :callaway-small: 54-10S   :cleveland-small: 588  58-12
Putter:  :seemore-small: mFGP2

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2 minutes ago, rbsiedsc said:

Don’t tempt me

11080D04-6298-4B84-BBCB-3B8CA76D4CC0.png

Do it!! Fwiw, I really liked the Recoil SMACWRAP ES760 and 780 shafts and would have likely gone with the 760/F3 had I not been "marketed too" for the MMT 80's 🤣.

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:ping-small: G410 Plus, 9 Degree Driver 

:ping-small: G400 SFT, 16 Degree 3w

:ping-small: G400 SFT, 19 Degree 5w

:srixon-small:  ZX5 Irons 4-AW 

:ping-small: Glide 2.0 56 Degree SW   (removed from double secret probation 😍)

:EVNROLL: ER5v Putter  (Evnroll ER5v Official Review)

 

 

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I agree with Mark, and I don't. Yes, the stock shaft is a good shaft. The OEM's definitely pick a few shafts that produce good to great results for the big part of the bell curve. And for a big chunk of the curve, finding actual measurable on course between stock and aftermarket would be hard. Our changing swing from one tee to the next introduces a much larger dynamic then a shaft could account for. And I think this is were Mark has drawn the line. For 99% of golfers(self included). the money spent on a new shaft would do much less than money spent on a set of lessons with a good pro. Mark is a great teaching pro and is probably annoyed with the buy a better game gearhead crowd. 

but where I think Mark misses is that with everything, quality does matter. and repeatability does matter. We have all been fit, I just went earlier this year. I tried... I don't know, 10 different shafts. If I just looked at the average distance and spin for them, the numbers would have been nearly identical for the most part. But if you look at the dispersion chart on how it got those numbers, you get some real differences. I definitely saw some that were +/- 15y in distance and +/- 40y in L/R dispersion, and others that were +/- 5y in distance with L/R in the +/- 20y. The averages were the same, but taking the one that hits a smaller target is obviously important for scoring.

The strokes gained on a different shaft are definitely less than the strokes gained on lessons. But there are strokes to be gained, and even if that is only 1 every other round, that is real and 1 per round, 2 per week for a PGA pro is a lot of money. 

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Driver:   :taylormade-small: SIM2 Max 12° - Accra TZ6 M4

FW Wood:    :cobra-small: F7 17.5° - Fujikura Pro

Utility:    :cobra-small: King Forged 20.5° Utility - Catalyst X

Irons:   image.png.cbfb2d938ea45d82004d9bdeb23cf643.pngD7 Forged GW-5i - Recoils

Wedges:   :Sub70:  JB 52° , 286 56°

Putter:   :taylormade-small: MySpider X

Cart: image.png.5aa5e9b8c0d6e08a2b12be76a06a07ca.pngOnewheel XR+

 

 

 

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22 minutes ago, jlukes said:

The shaft profile stuff is corrupted by marketing to.  Low launch low spin, high launch mid spin, etc etc.

Makes people think they can move to a low launch low spin shaft and move their numbers down from 16 launch and 3200 spin into a more reasonable window

As an instructor, I can see why that marketing and consumer mindset pisses him off.  

Yeah that’s another area that needs improvement. 
 

The flex and the identification of launch and spin profile are kind of necessary evils for the brands to sell clubs off the shelf. But also unfortunately many people including those on forums don’t understand contact points and launch characteristics and they go down a rabbit hole of trying to get a shaft to fix a swing flaw because of how it’s advertised.  
 

If more brands did what Graphite Design does with listing what the “stiffness” is in each section and then include the launch/spin it might help. 
 

I don’t like a stiffer butt end so even if two shafts have the same EI profile but one has a stiffer handle I’m going to along better with the softer handle one 

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Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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36 minutes ago, Thin2win said:

but where I think Mark misses is that with everything, quality does matter. and repeatability does matter. We have all been fit, I just went earlier this year. I tried... I don't know, 10 different shafts. If I just looked at the average distance and spin for them, the numbers would have been nearly identical for the most part. But if you look at the dispersion chart on how it got those numbers, you get some real differences. I definitely saw some that were +/- 15y in distance and +/- 40y in L/R dispersion, and others that were +/- 5y in distance with L/R in the +/- 20y. The averages were the same, but taking the one that hits a smaller target is obviously important for scoring.

This dispersion isn’t necessarily quality. This could easily be attributed to the EI profile and/or torque. which would impact weight, feel and how you react to that. Some shafts will have a golfer change their swing without them realizing it. My titleist fitter noted that with two shafts in a fitting I did for the 917. All 3 shafts we narrowed down to gave good numbers but one shaft I felt like I needed to go harder at and another three off my rhythm of the swing.

Most people would be shocked to find out that most shafts don’t use a lot of high end materials and typically only have 1-2 pieces of prepeg that would be considered premium. This is both for cost but also to make sure a shaft isn’t too brittle. The stiff a shaft gets the more brittle it becomes. The t1100 shaft only has 1 flag of t1100 in it. The Fujikura Ventus only has a single 70t flag.  
 

I have a 1 of 1 even flow blue shaft that had the middle layer replaced with a lesser material but two extra flags of it to increase the torque of mine compared to the retail version. It didn’t change the quality or performance one but.

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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Maybe another good question to ask which can help clarify some of the discussion is have you ever used a shaft in any club that simply just did not work? Most of us have shafts we like or prefer, but what is your experience with shafts that simply don't and what head was used? 

The best example for me was the Callaway Epic irons with steelfiber shafts... honestly I could not hit the face. It was embarrassing with my coworkers when we got them to try. I tried various swings and was just awful, put in a Modus and started flushing them (added some of the longest irons I have ever tried), either way steel fiber and me not friends. The others or XP95's, I had them in my Mizuno JPX EZ Forged, but tried them in various other heads when I worked at a shop and just could not get consistent results with them.  

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 ⛳🛄 as of Sept 24, 2020

SuperSpeed 2020 from 100-112 and climbing!

Driver:   :callaway-small: Epic Sub Zero - Set at 10* with Aldila Rogue Max 65 gram 

Wood:    :cobra-small: F7 3 wood 14.5* w/ weight back

               :ping-small: G410 Crossover - 2 and 4 iron

Irons:     :ping-small: i210 5-U w/ Nippon Modus 105 stiff (2018 Tester)

Wedge:  :ping-small: Glide 2.0 54* 58* w/ Nippon Modus 105 Stiff

Putter:   :odyssey-small: Stroke Lab 7 35* and oversized grip (2019 Tester)

Balls:      :srixon-small: Z Star

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1 hour ago, fixyurdivot said:

Do it!! Fwiw, I really liked the Recoil SMACWRAP ES760 and 780 shafts and would have likely gone with the 760/F3 had I not been "marketed too" for the MMT 80's 🤣.

If only I could convince my wife that I need a set so I don’t hurt myself. Haha. Although I would probably prefer TGI kbs shafts since I love the feel of the tour steel

Driver: :callaway-small:   Epic Max LS with RDX Blue 70g S (Testing Ventus Velocore Black 6x 44.5")

2H: :callaway-small: Super Hybrid with Tensei Orange Pro Hyb 80 Stiff (Testing Ventus Velocore Blue 8s Hyb)

3H: :Sub70: 939X UST proforce V2 black F5 hybrid soft stepped

4-AW: th.jpg.d6e2abdaeb04f007fd259c979f389de6.jpg  0211  with KBS Tour Stiff 2.5* up 1/4" long Unofficial Review

Wedges     :cleveland-small: Zipcore Tour Rack 54/full and 58/mid (review here)  (Backup 54*,60*: :ping-small:  S Tour KBS Tour Stiff 3* up)

Putter: TAII #2  Review here: TAIII Impact #2 Putter 

Ball: :Snell:MTB-X and :OnCore: vero X1 (Winter ball :titelist-small: proV1 )

 

 

 

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38 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Maybe another good question to ask which can help clarify some of the discussion is have you ever used a shaft in any club that simply just did not work? Most of us have shafts we like or prefer, but what is your experience with shafts that simply don't and what head was used? 

The best example for me was the Callaway Epic irons with steelfiber shafts... honestly I could not hit the face. It was embarrassing with my coworkers when we got them to try. I tried various swings and was just awful, put in a Modus and started flushing them (added some of the longest irons I have ever tried), either way steel fiber and me not friends. The others or XP95's, I had them in my Mizuno JPX EZ Forged, but tried them in various other heads when I worked at a shop and just could not get consistent results with them.  

I have been fit into several different counterbalanced designed shafts however the tensei orange is one that doesn’t work. The dispersion side to side is unplayable and the feel is off. Tried in three different brands with same results. 
 

Hzrdus black is a shaft I could play but it’s not optimal in launch characteristics and not a preferred feel. The smoke black wasn’t an improvement. 

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Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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14 minutes ago, rbsiedsc said:

If only I could convince my wife that I need a set so I don’t hurt myself. Haha. Although I would probably prefer TGI kbs shafts since I love the feel of the tour steel

I tested those as well and they were in the middle of the pack for me, numbers and feel wise.  Accra/MCA/KBS/Recoil/SteelFiber. Funny thing is that if I repeated the fitting with these candidates a handful of times, good chance they don't stay in that order... except the SF which just felt like rebar to me.

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:ping-small: G410 Plus, 9 Degree Driver 

:ping-small: G400 SFT, 16 Degree 3w

:ping-small: G400 SFT, 19 Degree 5w

:srixon-small:  ZX5 Irons 4-AW 

:ping-small: Glide 2.0 56 Degree SW   (removed from double secret probation 😍)

:EVNROLL: ER5v Putter  (Evnroll ER5v Official Review)

 

 

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  • 2 months later...

My golf buddy just went to a golf department store looking for new irons. After a few shots the golf tec suggested a senior shaft. He balked at the idea, then the tec snuck a senior shaft into the mix and both ball flight and distance went up. Needless to say he bought the clubs. In this case, the shaft made a definite difference. So is this a case of being at the low end of the bell curve?

:titelist-small: TSi3 #1-3-5 all with Tensi Blue S-flex

:callaway-small: 2019 Apex Pro black 3 & 4H Catalyst 70 or    

:titelist-small: TSi3 #2-3 depending on how I’m playing. Tensi Blue

:callaway-small: 2019 Calloway Apex Pro black, 5-PW, Catalyst 100 - 6.0, Super Stroker Jumbo   

:cobra-small:  2020 RadSpeed OL 4H, 5-GW … won’t get to actually use till warmer weather

:callaway-small: 2019 PM-grind, 56° & 60°, KBS steel, Green Cap

:taylormade-small: Blue Spider EX

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1 hour ago, B_R_A_D_Y said:

My golf buddy just went to a golf department store looking for new irons. After a few shots the golf tec suggested a senior shaft. He balked at the idea, then the tec snuck a senior shaft into the mix and both ball flight and distance went up. Needless to say he bought the clubs. In this case, the shaft made a definite difference. So is this a case of being at the low end of the bell curve?

Hard to say as we would probably need to see the numbers from the fitting and understand what heads he was testing.  I personally can hit everything from ultralight shafts graphite to heavy steel in a variety of flexes.  Yes there are differences in performance between them but I can make them work somewhat after swinging them a few times.   But I have also had shaft head combos that don't work in any way shape or form.   An example was during 3 wood most wanted testing where I tried several shafts and ultimately had to put a lightweight regular flex shaft to get any reasonable performance from the club.  In that case it simply came down to a head that really didn't work for me.  

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Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15* set  to 16.5* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 816H1 19* set at 18* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  21*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
               :titelist-small: 915H 24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :callaway-small: 54-10S   :cleveland-small: 588  58-12
Putter:  :seemore-small: mFGP2

Backups:  :bobby-grace-1: 6330, :taylormade-small:TM-180, :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, Bellum Winmore 787

 

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

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Crossfield has long stated or been in the "the shaft doesn't matter camp".. I completely disagree and have seen in both personally and in others that it really does matter. 

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Driver: SIM 9 Motore X F1 7X tipped 1 inch

Utility Iron: Cobra King Utility irons 18 degree Aldila rogue 90 X

Irons: Cobra King forged CB 4-PW KBS $ Taper 130 X

Wedges: Cleveland 49,52.58.64

Putter: Kronos Release.

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