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Timidly stepping out of the super game improvement space


vandyland

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Note: This could be long and potentially boring. Question is at the bottom in bold.

Have always played large cavity back irons (TM Rac OS, Ben Hogan EDGE CFTs and now Cobra F9s) largely due to an inferiority complex or some other fear keeping me from anything even remotely moving towards a "players" club. Any club that was described with the words "workability" "flighting" or "less offset" were no goes for me. However, I have been working on my game for the last year and moved from an 11 HDCP to a 5 HDCP (of course knowing that a HDCP is not always the best way to determine improvement in your game...let's just say I am hitting it better and out of the center a lot more). I take lessons regularly, practice fairly often and I am ready to ditch the one length experiment (I have found I am gripping down progressively on all my clubs after 7i which, to me, kind of defeats the purpose. But this is not an assault on one length. Rather, on a whim with my coach (who is also a fitter), I started hitting the Cobra RF proto blades (the Rickie irons that even rickie doesn't play anymore). Surprisingly, I would say 8 out of 10 were hit out of the center on a tight dispersion and consistent distance (blocked two of them off the planet though). I have no illusions of wanting to play this iron but it got me thinking. We then pulled out the JPX 921 tour, JPX forged and Cobra MIM Tour. Hit the Mizunos fine but that Cobra MIM was *chefs kiss*. It took everything not to just go out and order them immediately. Also, I have the KBS Tour 90 shafts in my current set and these test irons all had Nippon Modus 120 in them which I think I much prefer the extra weight as well.

In an effort to not make a rash decision, I am trying out clubs that are leaning towards a players iron. I think I am going to bypass some (not all) of the "players distance" irons (I have hit the forged TEC irons from cobra and honestly they feel and perform VERY similarly to my F9s on a LM and to my eye and hands). So that puts me in this space of players cavity back kind of irons. I want to try out a number of clubs (Apex Pro 21, Ben Hogan PTXpro, New Level 902 Forged, TM P770, Sub 70 639 CB, maybe even the Haywood Signatures) and be realistic about all this. I play fine with my current clubs so what am I trying to accomplish? It can't be ego or "how it looks in the bag driven." Also, not a ping or titleist guy. So, for anyone who has done this:

What should someone hope for when moving up in a class of irons? How best to test that before making a decision? Is this even necessary? In a perfect world, I would get a set of each and play 10 rounds in a variety of weather conditions but that is not possible. So the next best thing is to order demos from the DTCs, hit the Major OEMs in a golf shop and then eliminate based on feel and some squishy LM numbers and for the final 2 irons left make a real effort to hit them on a golf course under pressure etc. 

:mizuno-small: STZ 230 9.5* "Std" setting ➖ :mizuno-small: STZ 230 Hybrid 18* "lower" setting➖ :mizuno-small: Pro Fli-Hi 21.5* ➖ MALTBY TS1-IM 5-GW ➖ :benhogan-small: Equalizer II 54* ➖ :ping-small: Glide 4.0 (S) 58* ➖ L.A.B. Directed Force 2.1 
Maxfli Tour X Official Review -- https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/63068-testers-announced-maxfli-tour-x-golf-balls-with-max-align-technology/?do=findComment&comment=1021832

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So it all depends on what you are looking for and how those clubs react for you. If dispersion and distance are similar between models and at a level you can accept for those clubs then you are down to looks, sound, and feel to make your decision.

Of course most people find that some irons work better for them. Deciding which can be tricky, and most opt for a fitting or hitting them in a bay to get some idea about performance. Again for some that is the sole deciding factor, all performance and just play those. Others mix that with clubs they like the looks of. 

Ultimately the beauty is you will get to decide what this change means for your next irons. Compare to your gamers and see what is changing. Then you can decide if that is worth the money for thaf change. If that's more along, lower launch, or any number of things. Just go in with am open mind and see how they do for you.

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3 hours ago, vandyland said:

Note: This could be long and potentially boring. Question is at the bottom in bold.

Have always played large cavity back irons (TM Rac OS, Ben Hogan EDGE CFTs and now Cobra F9s) largely due to an inferiority complex or some other fear keeping me from anything even remotely moving towards a "players" club. Any club that was described with the words "workability" "flighting" or "less offset" were no goes for me. However, I have been working on my game for the last year and moved from an 11 HDCP to a 5 HDCP (of course knowing that a HDCP is not always the best way to determine improvement in your game...let's just say I am hitting it better and out of the center a lot more). I take lessons regularly, practice fairly often and I am ready to ditch the one length experiment (I have found I am gripping down progressively on all my clubs after 7i which, to me, kind of defeats the purpose. But this is not an assault on one length. Rather, on a whim with my coach (who is also a fitter), I started hitting the Cobra RF proto blades (the Rickie irons that even rickie doesn't play anymore). Surprisingly, I would say 8 out of 10 were hit out of the center on a tight dispersion and consistent distance (blocked two of them off the planet though). I have no illusions of wanting to play this iron but it got me thinking. We then pulled out the JPX 921 tour, JPX forged and Cobra MIM Tour. Hit the Mizunos fine but that Cobra MIM was *chefs kiss*. It took everything not to just go out and order them immediately. Also, I have the KBS Tour 90 shafts in my current set and these test irons all had Nippon Modus 120 in them which I think I much prefer the extra weight as well.

In an effort to not make a rash decision, I am trying out clubs that are leaning towards a players iron. I think I am going to bypass some (not all) of the "players distance" irons (I have hit the forged TEC irons from cobra and honestly they feel and perform VERY similarly to my F9s on a LM and to my eye and hands). So that puts me in this space of players cavity back kind of irons. I want to try out a number of clubs (Apex Pro 21, Ben Hogan PTXpro, New Level 902 Forged, TM P770, Sub 70 639 CB, maybe even the Haywood Signatures) and be realistic about all this. I play fine with my current clubs so what am I trying to accomplish? It can't be ego or "how it looks in the bag driven." Also, not a ping or titleist guy. So, for anyone who has done this:

What should someone hope for when moving up in a class of irons? How best to test that before making a decision? Is this even necessary? In a perfect world, I would get a set of each and play 10 rounds in a variety of weather conditions but that is not possible. So the next best thing is to order demos from the DTCs, hit the Major OEMs in a golf shop and then eliminate based on feel and some squishy LM numbers and for the final 2 irons left make a real effort to hit them on a golf course under pressure etc. 

Id say thats a very personal decision and one that only you can answer.  Im a 15 handicap and probably should be playing SGI irons but I cant stand them.  I cant stand to look down at a thick topline, I cant stand look at a set of chunky soled irons in my bag and I cant stand the lack of feel that they have.

I prefer and only play blades or players' cavity back irons.  I dont struggle to hit my irons well, so forgivness isnt a big concern for me.  Im all about feel and distance control.

"I suppose its better to be a master of 7 than to be vaguely familiar with 14." - Chick Evans

Whats in my Sun Mountain 2.5+ stand bag?

Woods: Tommy Armour Atomic 10.5* 

Hybrid: Mizuno MP Fli-Hi 3H

Irons: Mizuno T-Zoid True 5, 7 and 9-irons

Wedge: Mizuno S18 54* and Top Flite chipper

Putter: Mizuno Bettinardi A-02

Ball: Maxfli Tour X

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Play any iron that is forgiving and gives you confidence to play well.  

I learned this lesson a few years ago...I played Titleist 670 & 962b irons for years...I could have played a more forgiving set and played just as well if not better.

I'd also add...Since you've played Hogan's I would strongly suggest you include the Ben Hogan PTx Pro and Player's Combo irons.  You and I are similar handicaps and the combo's are A-O-K 🙂

 

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Currently testing the 2024 PING S159 wedges…

https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/63483-testers-announced-ping-s159-wedges/

Was testing, still loving the 2023 Titleist T100 Irons 4-P

https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/60456-titleist-t-series-irons-2023-forum-review/

 

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Definitely including the PTx Pro in my testing. I just love how those clubs look and I have always wanted an excuse to get back in some Hogans. And, of course, the Icons look amazing but I am trying hard not to be seduced here. I have found I am liking a thinner sole on the club but also have to remind myself it hasn't rained in like 3 weeks so everything is extremely baked out here in TN. 

@bens197 - did you have to get the Nippon Modus 120 and put in yourself? I don't see it as an option on their website and that is the shaft I recently tested that I like (coming from a KBS Tour 90 which is definitely too light). In a pinch I guess I could get a TT X100 shaft as that seems to be the only 120g shaft they offer? Not ideal.

:mizuno-small: STZ 230 9.5* "Std" setting ➖ :mizuno-small: STZ 230 Hybrid 18* "lower" setting➖ :mizuno-small: Pro Fli-Hi 21.5* ➖ MALTBY TS1-IM 5-GW ➖ :benhogan-small: Equalizer II 54* ➖ :ping-small: Glide 4.0 (S) 58* ➖ L.A.B. Directed Force 2.1 
Maxfli Tour X Official Review -- https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/63068-testers-announced-maxfli-tour-x-golf-balls-with-max-align-technology/?do=findComment&comment=1021832

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Well so much for Ben Hogan...they don't ship to Tennessee?

 

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:mizuno-small: STZ 230 9.5* "Std" setting ➖ :mizuno-small: STZ 230 Hybrid 18* "lower" setting➖ :mizuno-small: Pro Fli-Hi 21.5* ➖ MALTBY TS1-IM 5-GW ➖ :benhogan-small: Equalizer II 54* ➖ :ping-small: Glide 4.0 (S) 58* ➖ L.A.B. Directed Force 2.1 
Maxfli Tour X Official Review -- https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/63068-testers-announced-maxfli-tour-x-golf-balls-with-max-align-technology/?do=findComment&comment=1021832

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Irons like putters are personal preferences. Play what looks good to your eye, what makes you want to grab the clubs and go play/practice.

Know what to expect from your normal contact and what the results are when you miss toe, heel, thin or high on the face.

Consistent distance is key with irons on good hits but also on mishits. 
 

I can’t stand the terms of SGI or GI. Clubs in if themselves don’t automatically improves one game. Working on ones swing and imeovinfg the mechanics and sequencing along with having clubs that fit a golfers swing and allows them to have the chance to improve their game

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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This is precisely what a good fitting is good for. There are many good fitters out there that will build you a club to test prior to ordering any full sets. Moving away from an SGI will potentially take away some forgiveness but I think the bigger difference will be getting used to less forgiveness from the sole. If you're comfortable using SGI irons, then there is no reason to feel obligated to play less forgiving irons, even if you are a good ball striker. Spending too much time on golf sites tends to influence people towards players irons because you aren't seeing constant erotic photos of people's Big Berthas or Wilson Launch Pads. Another thing to be aware of regarding SGI and players irons is that there are many irons that don't fit solely into any one category. The "players distance" category is a mess of a category with forgiveness and head sizes ranging from SGI to players levels. One thing about your current and past irons is that they all have low COGs, so that may be something worth pursuing in a new iron. The Cobra MIMs have a relatively low COG and that is probably one of the reasons you liked them plus testers in the recent MGS test like the feel as well.

Overall, you can't really make a decision without getting the clubs in your hands. I recommend trying to limit how much time you spend researching clubs and reading reviews when you are trying irons to keep your mind as open as possible. What works for you will be different from what works for others. 

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I had Nike Vapor Fly, their last big sole fancy cavity/cast GI or Super GI iron, before leaving the club mfg biz in 2016.  I hit them well.  But I wanted more blade-like club on short irons, especially narrow sole.  I was fitted at Carlsbad Golf Ctr in Carlsbad CA.  Got Ping I 500 for 8-9-W.  Love them.  Forged face on a cast back.  Narrow sole allows more precise shot and forge face has better "feel".  I added a 6 iron.   

Driver: PXG 0211, A flex Evnflo Riptide (2021). And an old Callaway 454 TI (2004) on regular flex.

3 W: Callaway Steelhead Xr A flex Tensei CK 55 gram. The rest are Regular flex.

5 W : Titleist TSi 1 on Aldila Ascent regular flex.

Driving Iron: Mizuno MP 18 MMC 3 18 degree, on Mamiya Recoil reg flex.

4 iron:  Mizuno Fly-Hi, 24 degree hybrid iron, GFF, even tho it is a hollow body iron.

6,7,8,9,wedge: Ping I 500, on Recoil reg flex shafts.

Gap wedges: 52 x 9 Mizuno forged S5, wedge shaft; 60 x 6 Mizuno forged T7, wedge shaft.

Sand: Old original Hogan Sure Out on Apex original shaft, probably 56 / 12.

Chipper:  (yep I carry a chipper) old Don Martin "Up n In" bronze? copper? 🙂

Putter: Just switched Jan 2024 to a Odyssey Stroke lab "R" Ball with the 2 piece, multi material shaft.🙃

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I've played all different types of clubs, and it's just finding the ones that are comfortable in feel, looks, and performance. Invest $100 or so and go to Club Champion and get fit. These guys know their stuff. Big box store fitters just came from McDonald's with zero training. But the fitters at Club Champion will have you hitting every different type of head and a combination of shafts, until you find the right combination. Even if you don't buy the clubs there, you will know exactly what fits and what to buy.

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I would also encourage you to demo full on blades. If your handicap says something about your ball striking skills, you may like the feel of these even more. I play a “players distance” iron, the Apex 19 and recently one of the heads developed a problem. We think the tungsten in the head came loose. There is no fix. And since they don’t make these anymore (I just got them in August) they can only replace with the ‘21 model. This won’t happen with a blade. 
 

I have on order the Haywood signature MB’s and am excited to get them in the bag.

 

good luck and great playing !

Edited by Flying Zeke

Flying Fast 

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It's not entirely clear in your original post about what you are trying to accomplish by replacing your F9s.  Personally, I wouldn't swap them out unless you feel like they are holding you back for some reason.  Going to a players distance or players CB is probably going to cost you distance even on well struck balls and certainly will on the occasional mis-hits.  The benefit of those types of clubs is that they should be more workable, so if you think that you can improve your game by incorporating more shot shaping then a switch might be in order.  

What I would not do is make the switch just because you've improved your game to the point where you can play "better" irons.  They may not be better for your specific game, only you and your fitter can make that determination.  As others mentioned, I would definitely get fitted, and you could bring the DTC demo clubs to your fitting if you want to compare those with the others.  This is probably especially important if you're looking to make the jump from a lighter weight ~90 gram shaft to a 120.  

Also, for what it's worth, (and this is completely anecdotal) but I feel like I see a lot more people selling those categories of irons on BST shortly after purchase because they thought they could play them and it turned out to hurt their game compared to the other way around.  The last thing you want to do is regress after all of the hard work you have put in.  

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@HDTVMAN - my instructor is also a fitter BUT doesn't carry all makes (he has cobra, mizuno, TM and titleist) but has, to me, the ideal fitting setup. Basically a garage style door that opens out to the range with turf inside the garage and real range grass just beyond it. Has trackman and GEARS (which is more of a swing analysis thing but still pretty intense) so I think I can get a great idea using those tools once I narrow down my search. I will likely have to go to a CC or Golf Galaxy to hit the Apex Pro 21 and Apex but the thing I am equally interested in along with feel is how they get through the turf. I made the mistake of buying a wedge based off of how it interacted with artificial turf (I know, I know, I know...that was stupid) at Club Champion and found it to be quite a bit different once I hit off of grass. Won't make a final purchase on a wedge or iron without hitting it on real grass but I can still hit clubs in a bay at CC and say either "wow that felt effortless and soft" or "that felt like absolute shite."

@Flying Zeke - I looked at the Haywoods but felt I fell between the signature and the signature MBs. The signatures looked to be a power blade/hollow cavity blade that would give me similar ball speed issues (i.e. high volatility) as my current cobras. The MBs looked like a step too far but damn they look incredible. I would say the Haywoods are the best looking clubs out there to my eye. You are making me rethink this...again. 

:mizuno-small: STZ 230 9.5* "Std" setting ➖ :mizuno-small: STZ 230 Hybrid 18* "lower" setting➖ :mizuno-small: Pro Fli-Hi 21.5* ➖ MALTBY TS1-IM 5-GW ➖ :benhogan-small: Equalizer II 54* ➖ :ping-small: Glide 4.0 (S) 58* ➖ L.A.B. Directed Force 2.1 
Maxfli Tour X Official Review -- https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/63068-testers-announced-maxfli-tour-x-golf-balls-with-max-align-technology/?do=findComment&comment=1021832

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9 minutes ago, Flying Zeke said:

I would also encourage you to demo full on blades. If your handicap says something about your ball striking skills, you may like the feel of these even more. I play a “players distance” iron, the Apex 19 and recently one of the heads developed a problem. We think the tungsten in the head came loose. There is no fix. And since they don’t make these anymore (I just got them in August) they can only replace with the ‘21 model. This won’t happen with a blade. 
 

I have on order the Haywood signature MB’s and am excited to get them in the bag.

 

good luck and great playing !

That's very interesting that Callaway said they cannot fix the club and that they don't have the ability to replace the head for you.  I assume they offered you a completely new bag of the Apex '21 clubs then?

I'd also say that yours is an extremely rare situation.  So much so that I certainly wouldn't be switching to blades to avoid a repeat of something like this.  Most irons can and will last a decade or two with proper care so I wouldn't be making a choice about the type of clubs to play based on reliability.  It's great that you found a set of blades that work well for you, but given all of the information presented by this site and others, it seems like almost no one should actually be playing blades so I'd be hesitant to start recommending it to people.  

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@ChitownM2 - I totally agree with a lot of your points. The last thing I would want to do is play a set out of vanity or expecting to "grow into it." The two problems I am trying to fix, in order of annoyance:

(1) Club Specs: I am no longer "into" the one length concept and I have started gripping down progressively on my 8-PW to compensate. Also, I have been demoing clubs with Nippon 120g Modus shafts and I much prefer the weight to the KBS Tour 80/90s that I have in my F9s and, interestingly, my club head speed has increased despite not trying to swing faster. So that has my attention.

(2) Flyer/Fliers: This may be recency bias but in the last 5 rounds I have had at least 1 iron shot (and in one round 4 iron shots) where I carried an iron 10+ yards longer than average. I am not a tour level ball striker or even close to it but I hit on a trackman several times a month and I know my dispersion and my carry. My 9 iron, for example, is 145 carry on a good/average strike. Call it 150 off a tee. I gunned a level (no elevation) flag at 153 that was in the center of a green that was 20 yards deep and plugged my tee shot 7 yards long of the BACK of the green at 160. As the ball sailed the green I had my friend gun the same flag and he got the same number, hit his 150 yard shot flush and was pin high. I can't really plan for a 9 iron that CARRY anywhere from 140-160 on a normal strike. And I have seen this at my lessons as well when hitting on trackman and in a groove with a 7 iron I can go 165, 168, 166, 183 all with similar swings and swing speeds. Again, not saying that I am wearing out a mm hole in my iron from flushing it shot after shot but I know a shot that is off the toe, heel, a few grooves low etc. This is not that. 

:mizuno-small: STZ 230 9.5* "Std" setting ➖ :mizuno-small: STZ 230 Hybrid 18* "lower" setting➖ :mizuno-small: Pro Fli-Hi 21.5* ➖ MALTBY TS1-IM 5-GW ➖ :benhogan-small: Equalizer II 54* ➖ :ping-small: Glide 4.0 (S) 58* ➖ L.A.B. Directed Force 2.1 
Maxfli Tour X Official Review -- https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/63068-testers-announced-maxfli-tour-x-golf-balls-with-max-align-technology/?do=findComment&comment=1021832

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2 hours ago, ChitownM2 said:

Going to a players distance or players CB is probably going to cost you distance even on well struck balls and certainly will on the occasional mis-hits.  The benefit of those types of clubs is that they should be more workable,

He may not even give up distance or could he gain consistency in distance. There’s several GI or close to GI as well as players distance irons that have been know to cause flyers from the fairway for guys with good consistency in their contact on the club face. He may also have a better chance at holding greens due to bette launch characteristics with a players iron epically as his swing has improved.

the benefit of them isn’t just workability but also consistency. Also ball flight laws don’t care what club it is they are same same regardless. Now it may require a larger differentiation between face and path to move the ball side to side with a GI because of the lower spin they produce but they can still be worked that way as well as up and down

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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Yep, as an example, the Cobra MIM Tour 7 iron I was demoing off turf is 33* and I was carrying it 165 on average (with no nuclear fliers) and my F9 is 29.5* and I was carrying it 170 on average (a few in there were like 180-185 which is the whole flier issue). Loft to loft that seems like I am not giving up distance and, again, my distances were more consistent in this very small sample size of one day. As I mentioned earlier, the strangest thing was I was swing the Cobra MIM several MPH faster (I was actively not trying to swing harder as I wanted to compare them) which I can only deduce is down to the heavier shaft even though that is a bit counter intuitive, to me at least. 

:mizuno-small: STZ 230 9.5* "Std" setting ➖ :mizuno-small: STZ 230 Hybrid 18* "lower" setting➖ :mizuno-small: Pro Fli-Hi 21.5* ➖ MALTBY TS1-IM 5-GW ➖ :benhogan-small: Equalizer II 54* ➖ :ping-small: Glide 4.0 (S) 58* ➖ L.A.B. Directed Force 2.1 
Maxfli Tour X Official Review -- https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/63068-testers-announced-maxfli-tour-x-golf-balls-with-max-align-technology/?do=findComment&comment=1021832

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@vandyland Your transition to basically low handicap from mid is amazing. I'd read a whole series on your training, drills, instruction, etc.

Regarding your question, my best friend made the exact same path as you. He went from around a 13 to a 4 handicap in a year and a half. He made the jump to Ping i500s from his Big Bertha irons. He plays lights out with the new ones, but he tested a lot of clubs. He has one piece of advice:

Do an outdoor fitting experience if at all possible. 

I think you will find almost all the major manufacturers have clubs exactly in the space you're looking for. Most of them will have PRO DAYS where they will fit you outdoor on a GC2 or Trackman. I would choose the space you want to be in (players distance will probably give you good lofts and forgiveness), then sign up for a fitting at the pro days. That's how I knew my Apex Pro 21 specs, and late last year that's how I was fit for the P770s. 

I'm playing the Apex Pro 21s right now, I played the P770s for a while, combo sets, etc. If I closed my eyes and hit the ball, I couldn't feel the difference between my Apex Pros and my P770s. With the same C-Taper x-stiff shafts, they carried within a yard of each other on the same average line, similar heights, and extremely similar spin rates. The reason I went with the Apex Pros? I like the look. Still have the P770s and they look HOT as well. My point is that the fitting experience is crucial as you'd probably hit the club head the same from manufacturer to manufacturer. Most important fitting experience factor is likely the shafts.

  • Driver: image.png.c67e4844d8a191f8afb6a4e307a65ffa.png Stealth 8* turned down to 6* X-Stiff, Graphite Design Tour AD XC-6
  • 3 Wood: image.png.a1548764b69c6d3406f6f9f1ab1acd22.png Sim 14* X-Stiff, Aldila Rogue Silver
  • 2 Iron/2 Hybrid: Mizuno image.png.e2dedc2a71191940659367b8fac460ef.png MP-20 HMB, Graphite Design Tour AD; image.png.f066373041037bed32d08e715a7127f2.png Forged Tec set to 17* X-Stiff, Catalyst 6.0
  • P-4 Irons: image.png.d0a79f435e2331981ac11a33dd54e77a.png MP20, Dynamic Gold X100 
  • Wedges:  image.png.5e4bb78c97a6cf70133b4dfd9b768747.png Vokey SM9 50 degree 08F, 56 degree 08M and 60 degree 08M
  • My Putter: image.png.dce9f23e6ed6368fab8361d0c072c157.png B.2, LA Golf Shaft
  • Ball: image.png.0ca81de9028caab738d4428af820440f.png AVX
  • 5.3 Handicapped; Right Hander; from Salt Lake City, Utah
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2 hours ago, vandyland said:

@ChitownM2 - I totally agree with a lot of your points. The last thing I would want to do is play a set out of vanity or expecting to "grow into it." The two problems I am trying to fix, in order of annoyance:

(1) Club Specs: I am no longer "into" the one length concept and I have started gripping down progressively on my 8-PW to compensate. Also, I have been demoing clubs with Nippon 120g Modus shafts and I much prefer the weight to the KBS Tour 80/90s that I have in my F9s and, interestingly, my club head speed has increased despite not trying to swing faster. So that has my attention.

(2) Flyer/Fliers: This may be recency bias but in the last 5 rounds I have had at least 1 iron shot (and in one round 4 iron shots) where I carried an iron 10+ yards longer than average. I am not a tour level ball striker or even close to it but I hit on a trackman several times a month and I know my dispersion and my carry. My 9 iron, for example, is 145 carry on a good/average strike. Call it 150 off a tee. I gunned a level (no elevation) flag at 153 that was in the center of a green that was 20 yards deep and plugged my tee shot 7 yards long of the BACK of the green at 160. As the ball sailed the green I had my friend gun the same flag and he got the same number, hit his 150 yard shot flush and was pin high. I can't really plan for a 9 iron that CARRY anywhere from 140-160 on a normal strike. And I have seen this at my lessons as well when hitting on trackman and in a groove with a 7 iron I can go 165, 168, 166, 183 all with similar swings and swing speeds. Again, not saying that I am wearing out a mm hole in my iron from flushing it shot after shot but I know a shot that is off the toe, heel, a few grooves low etc. This is not that. 

 

13 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

He may not even give up distance or could he gain consistency in distance. There’s several GI or close to GI as well as players distance irons that have been know to cause flyers from the fairway for guys with good consistency in their contact on the club face. He may also have a better chance at holding greens due to bette launch characteristics with a players iron epically as his swing has improved.

the benefit of them isn’t just workability but also consistency. Also ball flight laws don’t care what club it is they are same same regardless. Now it may require a larger differentiation between face and path to move the ball side to side with a GI because of the lower spin they produce but they can still be worked that way as well as up and down

All very good points, I wasn't trying to say that it was a bad idea to upgrade or switch categories, only that there should be expectations outlined up front on what you wanted to achieve with the switch.  Obviously if you're getting flyers then that would be a problem, but is also dependent on the club not just the category.  People still get flyers from the P790 and other players distance clubs so that's really something to evaluate during the fitting.   

I can certainly understand wanting to get away from one length clubs as I've thought about them before but can't get past the fact that I don't like the idea of having a 7 iron length club for my PW-SW and mixing in variable length clubs with the OL kind of defeats the purpose.  

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You are probably already doing this but make sure that you get fit. It can make a huge difference. It certainly did for me as I was moved to 1 degree flat and it got rid of my hook. i went from TM R7's to PXG 0211's via fit and I love my clubs. If you're looking at players clubs and need to get fit, consider the new PXG 0211 ST. Fitting is free if you live near a PXG fitter and the 0211 ST's are forged but very reasonable (they are on sale now for $119/club). I recently hit them and would hands down buy them if I hadn't bought new clubs 6 months ago. 

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10 hours ago, vandyland said:

Definitely including the PTx Pro in my testing. I just love how those clubs look and I have always wanted an excuse to get back in some Hogans. And, of course, the Icons look amazing but I am trying hard not to be seduced here. I have found I am liking a thinner sole on the club but also have to remind myself it hasn't rained in like 3 weeks so everything is extremely baked out here in TN. 

@bens197 - did you have to get the Nippon Modus 120 and put in yourself? I don't see it as an option on their website and that is the shaft I recently tested that I like (coming from a KBS Tour 90 which is definitely too light). In a pinch I guess I could get a TT X100 shaft as that seems to be the only 120g shaft they offer? Not ideal.

They arrived with Tour V and I did the Modus install on my own after member testing.  A year removed from beginning the test and these irons aren't going anywhere, I am incredibly pleased with them.

  • Titleist TSi3 Fujikura Speeder NX Blue 60X
  • TaylorMade SIM2 3 wood Fujilkura Ventus Blue 7-X
  • Titleist U505 2 Tensei 1K Black 85 X
  • Titleist T100 4-P Nippon Modus 3 120X
  • PING S159 50-S 55-H 59-T DG X100
  • Vokey SM8 50, SM9 54 & 60  Nippon Modus 3 120s
  • L.A.B. MEZZ Max Broom Accra 47" 79.5*
  • Srixon Z-Star XV 

Currently testing the 2024 PING S159 wedges…

https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/63483-testers-announced-ping-s159-wedges/

Was testing, still loving the 2023 Titleist T100 Irons 4-P

https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/60456-titleist-t-series-irons-2023-forum-review/

 

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@golfgod2k those PXGs look surprisingly good! Also, extremely small 😵. The shop where I would go to hit the Apex Pro 21s and TM770s also carries PXG so I will, timidly, check those out. 

@GolfSpy_TCG thank you, I hope I not undoing it or going on some wild goose chase via this equipment odyssey. I agree that any final decisions should be made off of grass. I would only use the turf in a store to, hopefully, narrow down the irons I am trying to consider based on some kind of nebulous "feel". I am standard lie (as of my last lesson) so I don't need anything bent which is helpful and the main change I am making in addition to head is the heavier shaft I referenced earlier. So long as I can find clubs to hit with a 115-125 g shaft then we're good. 

Ben Hogan customer service got back to me and sorted me out! I have a PTXpro headed my way as well as a Sub 70 639-cb. I will post my thoughts here when I get them and then get a chance to hit them if that is of any benefit to others. So the lineup (very much subject to change) to be tested:

1. Cobra MIM Tour - tested alongside Hogan and Sub 70. Hogan beat it on numbers and Sub 70 beat it on feel. 
2. Ben Hogan PTxpro - received demo and tested
3. Sub 70 639-CB and 699 Pro - received 639CB and tested. 639 is too much club for me.  
4. Callaway Apex - will have to hit in the shop
5. TM P770 
6. PXG 0211 ST - ditto (we did not get along)
7. New Level 902 Forged and MODB-1 - may or may not get one sent my way. Who can say?
8. Haywood Signature - may end up being too much of player's distance iron but I could always bend them weak
9. Srixon ZX5 - will have to hit in the shop
10. Mizuno MP-20 HMB - will hit on Saturday

Edited by vandyland
updated post testing

:mizuno-small: STZ 230 9.5* "Std" setting ➖ :mizuno-small: STZ 230 Hybrid 18* "lower" setting➖ :mizuno-small: Pro Fli-Hi 21.5* ➖ MALTBY TS1-IM 5-GW ➖ :benhogan-small: Equalizer II 54* ➖ :ping-small: Glide 4.0 (S) 58* ➖ L.A.B. Directed Force 2.1 
Maxfli Tour X Official Review -- https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/63068-testers-announced-maxfli-tour-x-golf-balls-with-max-align-technology/?do=findComment&comment=1021832

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41 minutes ago, vandyland said:

those PXGs look surprisingly good! Also, extremely small 😵. The shop where I would go to hit the Apex Pro 21s and TM770s also carries PXG so I will, timidly, check those out. 


PXG clubs are actually fairly large;  they are not intimidating looking clubs  

 

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15*  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :titleist-small: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite
Putter:   :taylormade-small:TM-180

Testing:   SPGC_logo.jpg

Backups:  :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, :seemore-small: mFGP2, :cameron-small: Futura 5W

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

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1 hour ago, vandyland said:

@golfgod2k those PXGs look surprisingly good! Also, extremely small 😵. The shop where I would go to hit the Apex Pro 21s and TM770s also carries PXG so I will, timidly, check those out. 

@GolfSpy_TCG thank you, I hope I not undoing it or going on some wild goose chase via this equipment odyssey. I agree that any final decisions should be made off of grass. I would only use the turf in a store to, hopefully, narrow down the irons I am trying to consider based on some kind of nebulous "feel". I am standard lie (as of my last lesson) so I don't need anything bent which is helpful and the main change I am making in addition to head is the heavier shaft I referenced earlier. So long as I can find clubs to hit with a 115-125 g shaft then we're good. 

Ben Hogan customer service got back to me and sorted me out! I have a PTXpro headed my way as well as a Sub 70 639-cb. I will post my thoughts here when I get them and then get a chance to hit them if that is of any benefit to others. So the lineup (very much subject to change) to be tested:

1. Cobra MIM Tour - have already hit off of grass with Trackman and I was very impressed but only compared it to my current F9 OL and 2 players Mizuno heads that I didn't get along with (JPX Tour and JPX forged)
2. Ben Hogan PTxpro - demo is en route
3. Sub 70 639-CB - demo is en route
4. Callaway Apex and Apex Pro - will have to hit these in the shop first
5. TM P770 - ditto
6. PXG 0211 ST - ditto
7. New Level 902 Forged - may or may not get one sent my way. Who can say?

Excited to watch this 'series' unfold! Any stats you get from fitting experience, would you be willing to take a picture for the Forum? I am very excited for you to go through the process.

  • Driver: image.png.c67e4844d8a191f8afb6a4e307a65ffa.png Stealth 8* turned down to 6* X-Stiff, Graphite Design Tour AD XC-6
  • 3 Wood: image.png.a1548764b69c6d3406f6f9f1ab1acd22.png Sim 14* X-Stiff, Aldila Rogue Silver
  • 2 Iron/2 Hybrid: Mizuno image.png.e2dedc2a71191940659367b8fac460ef.png MP-20 HMB, Graphite Design Tour AD; image.png.f066373041037bed32d08e715a7127f2.png Forged Tec set to 17* X-Stiff, Catalyst 6.0
  • P-4 Irons: image.png.d0a79f435e2331981ac11a33dd54e77a.png MP20, Dynamic Gold X100 
  • Wedges:  image.png.5e4bb78c97a6cf70133b4dfd9b768747.png Vokey SM9 50 degree 08F, 56 degree 08M and 60 degree 08M
  • My Putter: image.png.dce9f23e6ed6368fab8361d0c072c157.png B.2, LA Golf Shaft
  • Ball: image.png.0ca81de9028caab738d4428af820440f.png AVX
  • 5.3 Handicapped; Right Hander; from Salt Lake City, Utah
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Yep, happy to post numbers from Trackman and even video from the "showdown" (hopefully it is 3 clubs or less) whenever I get there. Less for my own vanity but more so for anyone going through a similar process can determine if I my game/opinion is comparable/credible. For reference I have eliminated the following clubs:

Mizuno JPX921 Tour - Loved the look at address and I think these look much better in person than in pictures. Didn't get a great feel out of the club and felt like the clubs were designed for someone who hits it a little better than I do as I was punished a bit more than I would like on slight mishits. Even on a really well struck shot it didn't feel as "soft" to me as the Cobra MIM which for my game blew these out of the water. 

Mizuno JPX921 Forged - Liked the look of this less compared to the Cobra and JPXtour but it was similar to my F9 in blade length. I hit this one better than JPXtour but I was so spoiled by the feel from the Cobra MIM (which I hit better/more consistently than both Mizunos anyway) that I didn't hit more than 15 balls with it. I'm not sure what "chromoly" is but I didn't love it in this iteration. This is a shame because in my mind I always wanted to be a Mizuno guy but so far I have not been. 

:mizuno-small: STZ 230 9.5* "Std" setting ➖ :mizuno-small: STZ 230 Hybrid 18* "lower" setting➖ :mizuno-small: Pro Fli-Hi 21.5* ➖ MALTBY TS1-IM 5-GW ➖ :benhogan-small: Equalizer II 54* ➖ :ping-small: Glide 4.0 (S) 58* ➖ L.A.B. Directed Force 2.1 
Maxfli Tour X Official Review -- https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/63068-testers-announced-maxfli-tour-x-golf-balls-with-max-align-technology/?do=findComment&comment=1021832

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4 hours ago, vandyland said:

 

@GolfSpy_TCG thank you, I hope I not undoing it or going on some wild goose chase via this equipment odyssey. I agree that any final decisions should be made off of grass. I would only use the turf in a store to, hopefully, narrow down the irons I am trying to consider based on some kind of nebulous "feel". I am standard lie (as of my last lesson) so I don't need anything bent which is helpful and the main change I am making in addition to head is the heavier shaft I referenced earlier. So long as I can find clubs to hit with a 115-125 g shaft then we're good. 

 

Also don't forget that there is no such thing as standard lie or length.  The cobra irons you mentioned are 37.25" & 62.5° where as Callaway Apex Pros are 37" & 62° and JPX Tours are 37" 61.5° so you may need the mizunos 1° upright to match the lie of what you are playing now or what you hit well.  Obviously the fitting should take care of this, but don't get hung up on being standard in anything as that varies from one manufacturer to the next and also even between lines from the same manufacturer.

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don't get hung up on being standard in anything as that varies from one manufacturer to the next 

 

@ChitownM2  - I would say that is an extremely important point and one that I, honestly, overlooked. As a person who loves to overanalyze I am now going back to check the specifications sheet on each 7 iron currently in the test (of course, there are always manufacturing tolerances to deal with and the lie on the spec sheet could obviously differ from the singular club I have in my hand). This is one of the great things about a message board is getting feedback and assistance from others!

 

:mizuno-small: STZ 230 9.5* "Std" setting ➖ :mizuno-small: STZ 230 Hybrid 18* "lower" setting➖ :mizuno-small: Pro Fli-Hi 21.5* ➖ MALTBY TS1-IM 5-GW ➖ :benhogan-small: Equalizer II 54* ➖ :ping-small: Glide 4.0 (S) 58* ➖ L.A.B. Directed Force 2.1 
Maxfli Tour X Official Review -- https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/63068-testers-announced-maxfli-tour-x-golf-balls-with-max-align-technology/?do=findComment&comment=1021832

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On 6/28/2021 at 2:53 PM, vandyland said:

What should someone hope for when moving up in a class of irons? How best to test that before making a decision? Is this even necessary?

Having recently been through all this, I'm going to suggest not getting too hung up on iron categories.  First because the lines between a good many products on the market have been blurred to the point they can (and do) keep people from making the right choice.  Second because the choice should be, first and foremost, based on performance with ego checked at the door... easier said than done... looks are a factor.

While my primary goal of recent fitting was to find and switch from steel to composite shafts, my secondary goal was to try and move to the most "player" category iron I could handle - and these goals were shared with my fitter.  So why then after watching me warm up and capturing baseline data with my 6i did he not start pulling T100's, P770, Apex Pro, or i210's?  That would be because he was doing his job.  

When he pulled the ZX5's from the drawer and I compared them to my G410's, I was immediately thinking PCB... a postage stamp on a stick.   While very much debatable, the ZX5's are listed in the GI category.  They ended up producing the best numbers, edging the G425's by a bit.  I went as far as to travel 2 hours to a Srixon Demo in order to try them on turf and get a second data point.

Check out my "Sticker Shock" thread for some additional info.  Bottom-line is to find a competent fitter and let the data drive at least 95% of your decision... looks do not help scoring.  In fact, there is a recent thread started that argues more folks should be moving away from player category irons - at least for part of the set.  Good luck.

 

44770845_G425vsZX5Sole.jpg.d4bf91438ed99e1f2d15911dadf3f67c.jpg

:ping-small: G410 Plus, 9 Degree Driver 

:ping-small: G400 SFT, 16 Degree 3w

:ping-small: G400 SFT, 19 Degree 5w

:srixon-small:  ZX5 Irons 4-AW 

:ping-small: Glide 2.0 56 Degree SW   (removed from double secret probation 😍)

:EVNROLL: ER5v Putter  (Evnroll ER5v Official Review)

:odyssey-small: AI-One Milled Seven T CH (Currently Under Product Test)

 

 

 

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I like to buy slightly used clubs I want to try on Ebay. I try them out and if happy they stay in the bag a while (my Odyssey Tank 7 putter and Cleveland Mashie hybrids with X-flex Miyazaki shafts). If not, I resell on Ebay or Facebook Marketplace (often for more than I paid). Getting ready to try a third iron set (Titleist AP1 714s, Aerosteel 95 X-flex shafts) in the last 12 months. So far I am up $100 for the year while replacing my Taylormade M1 driver with a Ping G400 LST that is staying in the bag for  a while and my Tour Edge CBX 3W with the newer CBX T3 (including a Paderson Ballistic TP shaft) that is also a keeper. Used the extra $100 on a used range finder and lesson. Life is good.

Should mention, don't sell your current clubs until you decide you really like the new ones. I still have my Taylormade Tour Preferred irons with the 1st gen KBS Tour X flex shafts I got from a tour pro. Haven't found an iron yet that I like better. Eventually my method will yield a replacement but not in a big hurry. Maybe these Titleists are the ones.....

 

 

 

 

Short game savant, driving disaster...

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Having recently been through all this, I'm going to suggest not getting too hung up on iron categories.  First because the lines between a good many products on the market have been blurred to the point they can (and do) keep people from making the right choice.  Second because the choice should be, first and foremost, based on performance with ego checked at the door... easier said than done... looks are a factor.

I agree and I think I have a pretty good cross-section of clubs at the moment. I was surprised because I would have thought I would like the Cobra Forged TECs or P790s that my fitter had but when I hit them they were nuclear, distance wise, and felt very similar to my F9s. Then I hit the Cobra MIM Tour (that I assumed was for a much better player) and the tuning fork just went off. Like, "can I get a set of these right now after the first 5 shots I hit" kind of excitement. This kicked off a whole conversation with my coach/fitter who was talking about my game and such (note: he pushed me to try clubs he doesn't have and NOT buy the Cobras right there which makes me feel better he is not just trying to sell me new irons). 

Ultimately, is a new set of irons going to make me a noticeably better player? No. Practice, strategy, execution and some luck will do that. Will a new set of irons eliminate me going 10 yards over the green every round on a well struck shot? Not entirely, that is always a risk and will always be in play for someone like me who is not an elite ballstriker BUT a new set could have more spin and less ball speed variances on similarly struck shots so that at least I should be able to predict when I am going to come up short or long based on feedback rather than feel like I am rolling the dice. 

The worst possible outcome is I hastily buy a set based on one good range session and then later determine I bit off more than I can chew. I like to think I have control of my ego but, then again, some of these irons are extremely attractive 😄

:mizuno-small: STZ 230 9.5* "Std" setting ➖ :mizuno-small: STZ 230 Hybrid 18* "lower" setting➖ :mizuno-small: Pro Fli-Hi 21.5* ➖ MALTBY TS1-IM 5-GW ➖ :benhogan-small: Equalizer II 54* ➖ :ping-small: Glide 4.0 (S) 58* ➖ L.A.B. Directed Force 2.1 
Maxfli Tour X Official Review -- https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/63068-testers-announced-maxfli-tour-x-golf-balls-with-max-align-technology/?do=findComment&comment=1021832

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