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Timidly stepping out of the super game improvement space


vandyland
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2 minutes ago, cnosil said:

I personally think the Hogan numbers look the most consistent.

I agree which is why the numbers can be so helpful. I didn't like the "feel" as much in the Hogans so I was kind of discounting them but, again, if I had to play for my life right now they would go in the bag. Also love the way they look and I had hogans a decade ago so I have some affinity there. Today was very surprising for me. Again, it kind of gave me pause on the MIM Tours because of the flier(s) I had. This isn't as easy as I thought. 

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2 hours ago, vandyland said:

I agree which is why the numbers can be so helpful. I didn't like the "feel" as much in the Hogans so I was kind of discounting them but, again, if I had to play for my life right now they would go in the bag. Also love the way they look and I had hogans a decade ago so I have some affinity there. Today was very surprising for me. Again, it kind of gave me pause on the MIM Tours because of the flier(s) I had. This isn't as easy as I thought. 

It isn’t. And too be Frank it will change on a daily basis. As you get better some things may fly better. Off days will have off results as well. Love your journey and think it’s cool how you are going about it. Interested for when my time comes for new irons, and likely graphite shafts, and plan to give a DTC a try. The hogans are high on my list if they are still around when I need them due to the V sole. The Sub70s are also gorgeous 

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Driver: :callaway-small:   Epic Max LS with RDX Blue 70g S 

2H: :callaway-small: Super Hybrid with Tensei Orange Pro Hyb 80 Stiff 

3H: :Sub70: 939X UST proforce V2 black F3 hybrid soft stepped XStiff 

4-AW: th.jpg.d6e2abdaeb04f007fd259c979f389de6.jpg  0211  with KBS Tour Stiff 2.5* up 1/4" long Unofficial Review

Wedges     :cleveland-small: Zipcore Tour Rack 54/full and 58/mid (review here)  (Backup 54*,60*: :ping-small:  S Tour KBS Tour Stiff 3* up)

Putter: TAII #2  Review here: TAIII Impact #2 Putter 

Ball: :Snell:MTB-X and :OnCore: vero X1 (may dabble in :titelist-small: proV1 at some point)

 

 

 

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Thanks for sharing the data it was a great read. I wonder if any of those spins were estimated, they would have been in italics on the display. Just something to keep in mind. They all seemed to perform well and hope the others are in the same category.

:callaway-small: Epic Max LS 9° HZRDUS Smoke Black 70g 6.5 (2021 Official Review) | :taylormade-small: '07 Burner 15° Reax 50 Stiff 

:titelist-small: 816 H1 18° Fujikura Speeder HB 8.8 Stiff | :titelist-small: 816 H1 21° Mitsubishi Diamana S+ Blue 70 Stiff

:ping-small:  I500 5 - UW Red Dot Dynamic Gold S300 | :Hogan: Equalizer 52° / 56° KBS Tour V 110 Stiff

:cleveland-small:  SOFT 11S Super Stroke Mid-Slim 2.0 | :ping-small: Hoofer Bag | :titelist-small: Left Dash Pro V1x| Right Handed 

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Are you going to try the MP-20 MMC if you try the HMB? If you have access to them at least.

Edited by Ethan21
  • Driver: Titleist 915D2
  • Woods: Taylormade RBZ 3 Wood 
  • Hybrid: Taylormade RBZ Stage 2 3 Hybrid
  • Irons: Taylormade RBZ-Soon to be replaced.
  • Wedges: Titleist Vokey SM5 60 and 56
  • Putter: Scotty Cameron Newport Select 1.5
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I have heard that MP-20 is getting phased out. Mizuno told my fitter that MMC and standard MP20 is low on inventory and not coming back. Apparently they still have a lot of HMB heads. 

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21 hours ago, vandyland said:

I have heard that MP-20 is getting phased out. Mizuno told my fitter that MMC and standard MP20 is low on inventory and not coming back. Apparently they still have a lot of HMB heads. 

Interesting, I hadn't heard that. Good to know though.

  • Driver: Titleist 915D2
  • Woods: Taylormade RBZ 3 Wood 
  • Hybrid: Taylormade RBZ Stage 2 3 Hybrid
  • Irons: Taylormade RBZ-Soon to be replaced.
  • Wedges: Titleist Vokey SM5 60 and 56
  • Putter: Scotty Cameron Newport Select 1.5
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4 hours ago, Ethan21 said:

Interesting, I hadn't heard that. Good to know though.

MP line every 2 years. The mp20s were available for retail in late summer or early fall 2019

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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The New Levels (MODB-1 and 902 Forged) are arriving today. I have my biases going into it which will likely be wrong but want to memorialize them here so I can laugh later. I am expecting the MODB-1s to be the most explosive iron I've tested so far and feel similar to my F9s I currently have. I ordered them as part of the demo kind of just on a whim and because I was feeling less confident at that moment. See, I'm already discounting them and that's not really very fair. 

The 902 Forged, I have high expectations for these. I am sadly sending the 639CBs back because they are a touch too penalizing on my bad swings but they feel so good. If, somehow, the 902s are a unicorn for me that can feel as solid/soft as the Sub70s AND give me a little more grace on my average/below average strikes then that would be the ideal outcome. Putting unreal expectations on a club is unfair but I did that with the Ben Hogans and Sub 70s so this is only fair. 

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Got up at 6:30 am today to go hit range balls because I couldn't wait any longer. This is all feel and sight and I will hopefully get on the Trackman this weekend. I took the PtxPro v. 902 Forged v. MODB-1

PTxPro - steady eddie over here. Launches mid-high, consistent distances, ho-hum. The one thing I was doing today was losing these left a bit which I haven't seen on any other irons. Could be the offset, could be the operator, could be the earth's axis. These are still finalists. 

902 Forged - these were great today. Shorter blade length felt like it made me focus a bit more and really fit my eye. Since I lose it out on the toe there was a subconscious thought of "it's going to be harder to miss it on the toe". That very may well be not true at all but that was the thought. Feel was soft but dare I say not quite as soft as the 639CBs? That said, I didn't have any harsh misses so either (a) I was centering it or close to it on all my shots (b) these are a touch more forgiving/less feeling. I was very tight on dispersion with these and distances were quite consistent. It was hard to put this club down to test the MODB-1. I am probably putting too much pressure on these but I am eagerly awaiting what trackman says. These could very well be finalists. 

MODB-1 - rocket launchers, both good and bad. These are players distance irons and to me would compare to Cobra Forged TECs. The feel was obviously less soft and specific vs 902 forged but I toed one rather badly (felt the club twist) and it still went 90% of the distance. That's the good. The bad is I hit some absolute lasers that probably flew 15 yards past my target. This almost felt like a driving iron on a perfect shot, a hint of click but less than my F9s. I could see me combo-ing these with the 902 forged if I didn't already play a 4 and 5 hybrid. Personally, there is no way I would trust these on the 8-PW because I would imagine I could hit a PW anywhere from 130-150 with a similar speed swing and that is a current issue I am trying to fix by upgrading my gamers. I will still test this on Trackman to make sure I am not spreading disinformation. Nice club to look at and would still probably play this over my F9s. Probably going to get dropped from coverage unless Trackman presents some compelling info. 

One question for any gear guys/gals - I have the KBS 120 C Taper in these and, to my eye, this is flighting them lower (and also a claim backed up by KBS' marketing department, if they are to be believed). Would such a shaft have any impact on "feel?" The Sub 70s have a KBS tour 120 shaft that to me feels a tad "softer". Would that contribute to feel on a center strike?

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4 minutes ago, vandyland said:

Got up at 6:30 am today to go hit range balls because I couldn't wait any longer. This is all feel and sight and I will hopefully get on the Trackman this weekend. I took the PtxPro v. 902 Forged v. MODB-1

PTxPro - steady eddie over here. Launches mid-high, consistent distances, ho-hum. The one thing I was doing today was losing these left a bit which I haven't seen on any other irons. Could be the offset, could be the operator, could be the earth's axis. These are still finalists. 

902 Forged - these were great today. Shorter blade length felt like it made me focus a bit more and really fit my eye. Since I lose it out on the toe there was a subconscious thought of "it's going to be harder to miss it on the toe". That very may well be not true at all but that was the thought. Feel was soft but dare I say not quite as soft as the 639CBs? That said, I didn't have any harsh misses so either (a) I was centering it or close to it on all my shots (b) these are a touch more forgiving/less feeling. I was very tight on dispersion with these and distances were quite consistent. It was hard to put this club down to test the MODB-1. I am probably putting too much pressure on these but I am eagerly awaiting what trackman says. These could very well be finalists. 

MODB-1 - rocket launchers, both good and bad. These are players distance irons and to me would compare to Cobra Forged TECs. The feel was obviously less soft and specific vs 902 forged but I toed one rather badly (felt the club twist) and it still went 90% of the distance. That's the good. The bad is I hit some absolute lasers that probably flew 15 yards past my target. This almost felt like a driving iron on a perfect shot, a hint of click but less than my F9s. I could see me combo-ing these with the 902 forged if I didn't already play a 4 and 5 hybrid. Personally, there is no way I would trust these on the 8-PW because I would imagine I could hit a PW anywhere from 130-150 with a similar speed swing and that is a current issue I am trying to fix by upgrading my gamers. I will still test this on Trackman to make sure I am not spreading disinformation. Nice club to look at and would still probably play this over my F9s. Probably going to get dropped from coverage unless Trackman presents some compelling info. 

One question for any gear guys/gals - I have the KBS 120 C Taper in these and, to my eye, this is flighting them lower (and also a claim backed up by KBS' marketing department, if they are to be believed). Would such a shaft have any impact on "feel?" The Sub 70s have a KBS tour 120 shaft that to me feels a tad "softer". Would that contribute to feel on a center strike?

Shafts in general can have an impact on feel. They can impact how the weighting and balance feels to a person as well as how they feel when making contact with the ball and the feedback received in the hands and arms.

As for the c tapers they are going to feel harsher than the tour. I was not a fan of the c taper and have a buddy who swings faster than me that played them for a year and hated them as well and switched out of them. He’s gone thru px and iirc dg x100 again

 

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Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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I see you play the Nippon Modus in your irons. So far, I feel like I like that shaft the best (it is what my instructor has recommended for me in the past), however it is going to increase the cost of a set of irons like $120-$150 over the KBS Tour V. I guess I just have to decide if there is a discernible difference for me that justifies that cost. If I settle on a head I like that can be the next rabbit hole I guess, haha. If you can't tell, I'm enjoying this a little too much.

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7 minutes ago, vandyland said:

I see you play the Nippon Modus in your irons. So far, I feel like I like that shaft the best (it is what my instructor has recommended for me in the past), however it is going to increase the cost of a set of irons like $120-$150 over the KBS Tour V. I guess I just have to decide if there is a discernible difference for me that justifies that cost. If I settle on a head I like that can be the next rabbit hole I guess, haha. If you can't tell, I'm enjoying this a little too much.

Yeah I’ve played the modus 120 now in 3 different heads and have liked it. It’s been a popular shaft for several brands in the 120 and 105 versions. 
 

The modus 120 give me a good feel in weight and balance and I don’t have any issues in how they feel when I most hit a shot. Other than how the balance in weight feels between the 120 and 105 I haven’t seen much difference in ball flight between the two, just can’t get past the lighter feel of the 105. 

If some of the brands I played offered recoil 110s in the irons I would just convert at purchase but there’s only a few that offer them even as an upcharge. But more than likely I’m just going to end up sourcing them and having will peoples do my builds going forward. 
 

 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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Second and final trackman session this weekend, good chance to see if what I am seeing and feeling is coming through in the data. Coming into it I expected the MODB-1 to carry the farthest with the fastest ball speed but have inconsistent spin, the Mizuno MP-20 MMC to flight the lowest and spin the most and the New Level 902 to be in the middle. All clubs tested are 7 irons but the MODB-1 is 30* vs Mizuno and New Level at 32*. I took the PGA Tour averages (I know I am nowhere near them but just to get an idea) even though their lofts might vary. Just seemed like some kind of a baseline performance to test against. Again, there were some surprising results. (DISCLAIMER: I am not an elite ball-striker. I am not a fitter. I am not an equipment expert. I am just a guy trying to intensely over analyze a buying decision that I have typically made impulsively. Do not assume that one person's opinion is anything other than a single data point. So far all the clubs I have hit do something very well and have a specific intention that may or may not suit ME.)

Here's my numbers, I accumulated 10 average or better shots. I threw out mishit shots and counted how many mishits I had. I also did a very subjective "strike quality" indicator that I was tracking on each shot. A is average, AA is above average and AAA is absolutely pured. This is all based on the feel of the shot in the moment and not the numbers on the trackman so there could be some incongruity between me saying I "AAA"'d a shot and then the numbers not bearing that out. I was trying to swing as I would on the course, at a target and with my preshot routine and all that. I would hit 5 of each club and then switch. I played 18 holes before hand (and used the clubs in this demo whenever possible for approach shots) so I was warmed up and, potentially, a bit tired as I walked in 90* heat. 

New Level MODB-1 7 iron at 30* in a KBS C Taper Stiff - really easy to hit, felt hottish off the face but gave some feedback and some softness but definitely had the feel closer to a players distance iron. Launch actually looked a bit low but let's see the numbers

image.png.17dae92fae2196ac0bf9d38b3a6ffe37.png

Have to say that I was very pleased, surprised, impressed by the low variability across the board (ESPECIALLY IN SPIN, that is probably the smallest range I have had on any iron. The only thing is launch was visibly low and it is low on the chart. See dispersion below as well which was good but had a tendency to flare right a tad (this is my miss which is more of a block than a fade):

image.png.de7c77b45ac9f5722e6aa332eb182788.png

 

Mizuno MP-20 MMC 7 iron at 32* in a Nippon Modus 120 Stiff - Really nice looking iron that looks better in person. Had a good bit of tech in it that I could feel and I would say it reminded me of the Cobra MIM Tour in feel at impact (solid/soft) but was a tad less forgiving. Felt hottish off the face for the type of iron it was so I expected ball speed to be decent to good. 

image.png.f00e559fa5cc2ea5615c4f7d11b9d2c0.png

Spin and carry variability were all over the place. When I pured this iron it was nuclear, distance wise, and had some serious jumpers for me (like the Cobra MIM). Good feedback on misses and soft on center strikes (but not as soft as the 639CB, that was the softest iron I hit!). Ultimately, this is too much club for me as I am not quite consistent enough (see my attack angle as the main culprit) for it. Also, it is basically sold out so I wouldn't be able to get it anyway (new). So this was a fool's errand from the start. Dispersion below:

image.png.0fcd3bb19b2a7537bf29047e81dc2c37.png

 

New Level 902 Forged 7 iron at 32* with KBS C Taper - I had unreasonably high hopes for this iron. It does a lot of good things, it was slightly more forgiving that other one piece CBs I have hit and had a nice soft muted feel on center strikes. Well constructed and attractive. But it definitely lacked a little ball speed which would be fine if I got a bunch of "control" from that but based on the numbers it isn't a match FOR ME.

image.png.5183d24bf6d6f00ccdd9ab0114ed76f3.png

The main takeaway was I had a lot of throwaway shots (4) on this club. I "felt" like it was more forgiving that the Mizuno but I think it may have just been that the Mizuno had harsher feedback. When I went and looked at the throwaways, this club lost way more ball speed on mishits. That said, on solid hits the range is more manageable than the Mizuno BUT less impressive than the MODB-1. Dispersion below:

image.png.094b87e76614a4ba5b6571b031ed47c4.png

 

All in all, the MODB-1 won this group which was shocking to me. I thought the MODB-1 was a bit of an afterthought as I was a tad chunkier than I wanted it to be and has this rounded bottom that looks a bit like a whale's tail but the club just worked for me on the day and during the 18 hole round. I had a second shot into a par 5 that was a 175 carry over a bunker (181 to the flag) and I pured it to like 12 feet (missed the eagle putt of course). Hit two other MODB-1s from 165-175 out and GIRs both times. Hit the New Level twice and flew a green by 5 yards once and had a GIR on the other. Hit the Mizunos twice and had GIRs both times but was 30 and 45 ft away on those. From a confidence standpoint the MODB-1s were the top and then seeing the numbers come out better two made the MODB-1s the clear winner in this group.

 

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It’s cool you found something out of your testing that worked for you. The loft and shafts in each wasn’t exactly an apple to apples comparison.  But if not going to do an actual fitting or to further test on your own with a specific head and/or shaft to find the best combo then you could go with what you have here
 

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Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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So there is now a championship final between the New Level MODB-1 and the Ben Hogan PTxPros. These two irons were the most consistent in my testing and so now they have made it through my bracket and are facing off with my instructor who is also a fitter. I will have him put me through the paces with the two irons and we will come to a consensus. To refresh:

Ben Hogan PTxPro took down the following clubs: Cobra MIM Tour, Mizuno JPX 919 Tour, Sub 70 639CB, Mizuno JPX Forged

New Level MODB-1 took down the following clubs: Mizuno MP-20 MMC, Mizuno MP-20 HMB, New Level 902 Forged, Cobra Forged TEC

Ultimately, this is more a reflection on my game and not the clubs. I don't have anything truly negative to say about any of the clubs I tested and I think I could game all of them on my better days. The key takeaway I have now is that Direct to Consumer clubs can absolutely compete (and surpass) major OEM offerings. I do want to toss out some winners from my testing:

Best Feel/Feedback - Sub 70 639 CBs. Best feeling irons I hit and it wasn't close and mishits were very specific. 

Best Looking - The Mizuno MP-20 MMCs were beautiful in person. They look much better in hand than on the website.

Most Surprising - New Level MODB-1s, their consistency was a total shock. 

Mother Teresa's (most forgiving) - To me, this is a tie between the Forged TEC and the Ben Hogans. 

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Posted (edited)

We have a winner. Hit the New Level MODB-1s vs the Ben Hogan PTxPros on Trackman with my coach/fitter/spiritual guru with the understanding that the numbers would guide us. The short answer is the PTxPros won and I already placed an order for 5-PW. Added bonus is that Ben Hogan is running a special where they will boost your trade-in value on your clubs 50% for any purchase this month. Great! I was already planning on buying them and then I saw that. Serendipity!

To determine the winner, I would hit 3 shots with the PTx then 3 shots with the MODB-1 and then repeat for a total of 12 full shots. Also hit 5 shaped shots with each which is trying to flight draws down. Anything terrible was discarded (there were 2 terrible shots out of the 34, one on each...how fitting). Key metrics were consistency across carry distance, spin, land angle, launch and dispersion. To be honest this was pretty close. The MODB-1s are much better than I gave them credit for and just kept making this difficult. Where the Hogans separated, for me, was the launch and land angle control. I can hit Hogans high (like really high), middle and low. I have never really had irons that can do that. The MODB-1s launched fairly low for me and that was really all I could do was hit them lowish middle and really low. We don't have a ton of wind here in Nashville but we do have some baked out greens so being able to hit it high and low is key. Also, I had a wider dispersion with the MODB-1s. In talking with my coach, I wanted to get his opinion on if this was entirely to do with the fact that MODB-1s are 4* stronger. Based on the dispersion, I was blocking the MODB-1s slightly and the longer blade length made me wonder if I wanted a clubface that long in the shorter irons. 

If hybrids didn't work so well for me, I could see a world where I had a 4 and 5 iron in the MODB-1. They are easy to hit and have good ball speed but still spin a good bit, just flighted down. They actually launched lower than my New Level 902 demos (and more than just 2* of loft separation would provide) which was interesting. 

Quick Summary:

Feel - PTxPro more specific feedback and a bit softer on center strikes

Spin - PTxPro spins a bit more, even when normalizing for the difference in lofts, which is what I wanted but the MODB-1s spun a little more consistently. 

Look - PTxPros look better to my eye with a shorter blade length.

Ease of use/forgiveness - MODB-1s are very easy to launch

Control - this is subjective but I felt like the Hogans were easier to manipulate high, low, left right. 

Both great clubs and I think I would have been fine with either. Hogans are going to look really good in the bag and that matters too, I guess. 

 

Edited by vandyland
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  • 2 months later...

As an update to this we are about 7 rounds later and I have no regrets about the iron change. Overall GIR is up (both overall and on iron approaches) and, anecdotally, dispersion seems much tighter on left to right misses with the Hogan vs the Cobra F9s. Spin is also higher and more consistent so well struck balls seem to fly more consistent distances. Very pleased and I still just stare at these irons when they are in my bag. They looking absolutely beautiful. Definitely liking the heavier shafts as well. Overall I am very pleased. 

The only negative I have noticed is that, as noted previously, the "feel" of these Hogans is not quite what I would expect. I am still disappointed when I mishit a shot and I have no idea where I hit it on the face. I can often guess by the ball flight but there is no specific feedback with these like I had with the Sub 70 639 CBs and Mizuno MP-20 MMC. Sigh, you can't have it all. The flipside to that is they perform VERY WELL on thinned shots I have found. That is now my miss and I get away with it all the time. 

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46 minutes ago, vandyland said:

The only negative I have noticed is that, as noted previously, the "feel" of these Hogans is not quite what I would expect. I am still disappointed when I mishit a shot and I have no idea where I hit it on the face

Is this more sound than feel? Setting aside the shots that are 100% pure strikes some clubs have a different sound from a center strike and an off center one, some don’t have any and the only difference in sound is the pure strike from a regular one.

In my experience the players category and to some extent payers distance the feel in the hands from vibration as well as club twisting are noticeable enough to know where the shot was struck. When I talk feel this is what i reference 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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