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7 minutes ago, IONEPUTT said:

 and hope for Birdie to start your round. 

 

16 hours ago, HardcoreLooper said:

8th Hole - Belmont Golf Course - Richmond, VA
350 Yards

Someone else thought this was the first hole, but @HardcoreLooper specifically says its #8.  By the time a player gets there, he'll either have a bit of confidence in hitting it where he's looking, or will be a complete wreck, or maybe somewhere in between.  

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:callaway-small: Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X

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Right handed

Reston, Virginia

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I can’t hit the broadside of a barn a lot of times. Sometimes I’m over in the next fairway, yes, I yell fore if someone is on the hole.  I’m a 4 according to Arccos.  I play a fade with the driver, but I have been cursed/blessed with moon ball height. If I can’t get over the tree it is impossible for most.

I think we should go back to the initial question.  He wasn’t asking for people to tell him he needs lessons.  Taking lessons is not a strategy as how to play the hole with what he’s got.

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3 hours ago, seeking70's said:

1st hole of the day?  Not unless it's a scramble.  It says it's hole #8.

Oops; I misread that! I'd still play it at 210-220 though!

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No one has mentioned anything about the accuracy of the 19º hybrid.  We all assume that it's a fairway finder, but that's not stated.  What is the percentage of shots with the hybrid that find rough or worse at 130y from the green?  How many times have we seen pros hit an iron off the tee on a shortish hole to find the fairway and proceed to hit it in the rough.  I see it every week.

I would probably go with the layup shot if I could hit a PW into the green.  However, I'm agreeing with @RickyBobby_PR that the fairway is plenty wide for a driver shot if the player has reasonable control of the shot.  If they don't, then improve your shot.  Personally, I would much rather have 100y shot into the green than a 130y shot.

I certainly don't have 250y off the tee, but the fairway looks narrower at 210-220y which is where I would be hitting my driver.  I normally hit a small fade, but if I feel that I need to keep it straighter, I will hit a low driver shot that is straighter than my normal shot shape, and it will run out almost as far if course conditions allow it.  Sometimes you have to manufacture a shot for certain conditions and hole shapes.  

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I'd most likely be hitting hybrid if it were me and I absolutely needed to make par. Anything longer just brings too much trouble into play.

Driver: Mizuno ST190 9.5* Aldila RIP Alpha 60 S
Fairway Wood: Mizuno ST190 15* Fujikura Atmos Blue 6S
Hyrbrid: Mizuno CLK 19* Fujikura Speeder EVO HB
Irons: Bridgestone J40 CB (4-PW) Dynamic Gold Tour Issue X100
Wedges: Bridgestone Tour B XW-1 50*, 54*, & 58* Nippon Modus 3 105
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Sorry, it's the end of the quarter and things are a little nuts at work, so I didn't have time to respond.  Thanks to all who offered their opinions.  

 

11 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

The triangle is fine, but consider drawing a "triangle" using your normal shot shape for the two long legs.  On the left side it would have to stay right of the first batch of trees, ending up in the left-center of the fairway, maybe further right.  You know your shape, you can do this.  On the right side, the end has to stay left of the Penalty Area.  NOW what's the available width?  40 yards maybe?  45?  That does seem pretty tight to me.  If you can learn to hit the driver straighter or higher, that would open the hole up a good bit, but you have to make decisions on the shots you have right now.  I agree with you, the shorter club is probably the right choice.  And the right choice is not dependent on the length of the hole, to me, its a matter of getting the maximum distance possible while maintaining an acceptable level of risk.

 

@DaveP043 - What you're stating is what I'm thinking.  Here's the modified diagram:

image.png.c28e0ceead3984f84d20a994a85241d5.png

It's a bit of a SWAG, but I figure I'm giving away about 10-15 yards of the left side of the fairway with the left-to-right ball flight of my driver.  So yes, my effective cone width is probably more like 40 yards or so.  The fact that I can't hit the ball over those trees on the left side with a driver is a killer for me.  Hugging the left side of the fairway with my start line seems to me like shifting the center of the cone toward the trees left and brings them into play if my start line is anything left off perfect.

The 19* hybrid is a bit more accurate, and it definitely takes the penalty area out of play on the right (I can't reach it).  It also flies right to left (I draw everything but the driver; I can't hit a driver right to left and keep it on the planet so I set mine up for a fade).  If I put it in the trees to the left, I can punch out and advance the ball toward the green.  They aren't nearly as big an issue as the penalty area to the right.

 

 

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3 Wood (16*) - :cobra-small: F8 - Aldila NV Blue 60 ( S )
3 Hybrid (19*) - :taylormade-small: RBZ
4i - PW - :wilson_staff_small: D7 Forged - Recoil 760 ( S )
GW - LW - :cobra-small: F8 - N.S. Pro Modus3 Tour105 ( S )
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allow me to offer another option: have you considered driving the green?

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4 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Exactly.

Assuming you are using all pros for that data point. I’m betting each individual pro has a much smaller dispersion area. Can you provide the link to this data point

The OP is a single digit handicap. Keeping the ball in play on this hole shouldn’t be a problem even if he takes 10 yards of the fairway away on the left side. He still has 40+ yards of fairway and plenty of room in the right rough to be able to hit driver every day. 

5 years of DJ tee shots:  dispersion pattern 120 yards wide.   Throw away some outliers and maybe down to 80 yards wide. 

E2pi4HGXEAEUSlo?format=jpg&name=medium

Bryson and Brendon Todd over 2 years. 

E2o-grqWEAAlXq2?format=jpg&name=small

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Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15* set  to 16.5* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 816H1 19* set at 18* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  21*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
               :titelist-small: 915H 24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :callaway-small: 54-10S   :cleveland-small: 588  58-12
Putter:  :seemore-small: mFGP2

Backups:  :bobby-grace-1: 6330, :taylormade-small:TM-180, :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, Bellum Winmore 787

 

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10 hours ago, DiscipleofPenick said:

I'm guessing the idea is to just keep the big number off the scorecard?

This was a good question, and I should have pointed it out from the start.  My goal is to make the lowest average score on the hole over multiple rounds.  This course is basically my new home course.

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What's in the bag:
Driver - :cobra-small: F8 - Aldila NV Blue 60 ( S )
3 Wood (16*) - :cobra-small: F8 - Aldila NV Blue 60 ( S )
3 Hybrid (19*) - :taylormade-small: RBZ
4i - PW - :wilson_staff_small: D7 Forged - Recoil 760 ( S )
GW - LW - :cobra-small: F8 - N.S. Pro Modus3 Tour105 ( S )
Putter - :ping-small: Craz-e
Bag - :1590477705_SunMountain: 2.5 (Black)
Ball -  :taylormade-small: TP5X Pix
Instagram - @hardcorelooper
Twitter - @meovino
Facebook - mike.eovino

 

 

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12 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

57 yards is a lot of room. That’s just over the width of a football field. Take driver from middle of the tee area aim just just inside the left corner of the triangle and swing away

57 yards is definitely narrower than my dispersion cone with my driver.  I'd be a much better player if I could average 250 off the tee and keep it to 57 yards side to side.  

If I set my start line down the left side of the triangle, just to the right of the tree, don't I bring that tree into play nearly 50% of the time?  I haven't done any analysis on this, but I'd have to think that I'm going to start the ball left of my intended start line about 50% of the time.  I've always thought that you need to aim to hit the center of your dispersion cone, because you're going to miss your start line left half the time and right half the time.

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What's in the bag:
Driver - :cobra-small: F8 - Aldila NV Blue 60 ( S )
3 Wood (16*) - :cobra-small: F8 - Aldila NV Blue 60 ( S )
3 Hybrid (19*) - :taylormade-small: RBZ
4i - PW - :wilson_staff_small: D7 Forged - Recoil 760 ( S )
GW - LW - :cobra-small: F8 - N.S. Pro Modus3 Tour105 ( S )
Putter - :ping-small: Craz-e
Bag - :1590477705_SunMountain: 2.5 (Black)
Ball -  :taylormade-small: TP5X Pix
Instagram - @hardcorelooper
Twitter - @meovino
Facebook - mike.eovino

 

 

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3 minutes ago, HardcoreLooper said:

If I set my start line down the left side of the triangle, just to the right of the tree, don't I bring that tree into play nearly 50% of the time?  I haven't done any analysis on this, but I'd have to think that I'm going to start the ball left of my intended start line about 50% of the time.  I've always thought that you need to aim to hit the center of your dispersion cone, because you're going to miss your start line left half the time and right half the time.

You don't necessarily have to align yourself to hit down the center line.    This video might help explain what I am talking about.  While it is about practice,  the setup information still applies to playing on the course. 

 

 

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Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15* set  to 16.5* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 816H1 19* set at 18* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  21*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
               :titelist-small: 915H 24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :callaway-small: 54-10S   :cleveland-small: 588  58-12
Putter:  :seemore-small: mFGP2

Backups:  :bobby-grace-1: 6330, :taylormade-small:TM-180, :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, Bellum Winmore 787

 

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

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8 hours ago, RyckyRych said:

My son-in-law owns a house that borders this course but I've never had the chance to play it. Is it true that there are going to tear it up and make a 12-hole course out of it? I thought I had read that somewhere...

Henrico County (owner of the course) looked for a group to take over the management of the course after years of neglect and losing money.  First Tee of Greater Richmond wound up winning the bid. They decided to take the first six holes and turn them into a range (the course had no range), a short game practice area, a six hole par 3 course (similar to The Cradle at Pinehurst) and a massive putting course.  Then they renovated holes 7-18 into a 12 hole golf course.  They did a great job - they restored original green sizes and countours (many of the greens are really wild and fun to putt), they rebuilt and deepened all of the bunkers (much better to play from but much harder to get out of), they brought back some of the old back tees on some of the holes and basically revitalized it.

There have been some vocal complaints about losing 6 holes, but no one I've played with has complained about it.  I've played it four times since reopening, each time getting paired with other people.  I kinda like either being done after 12, playing the par 3 course, or going out and playing another 12.  Seniors who used to be able to play the course for around $25 have a legitimate complaint.  It's now $60 during the week to play it twice or $45 to play the 12 full-size holes and the par 3 course.  Seniors get a 10% discount.

Full disclosure, I've been a volunteer coach for about a decade, my younger daughter is a program participant and my older daughter is a camp counselor and former participant.

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What's in the bag:
Driver - :cobra-small: F8 - Aldila NV Blue 60 ( S )
3 Wood (16*) - :cobra-small: F8 - Aldila NV Blue 60 ( S )
3 Hybrid (19*) - :taylormade-small: RBZ
4i - PW - :wilson_staff_small: D7 Forged - Recoil 760 ( S )
GW - LW - :cobra-small: F8 - N.S. Pro Modus3 Tour105 ( S )
Putter - :ping-small: Craz-e
Bag - :1590477705_SunMountain: 2.5 (Black)
Ball -  :taylormade-small: TP5X Pix
Instagram - @hardcorelooper
Twitter - @meovino
Facebook - mike.eovino

 

 

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34 minutes ago, cnosil said:

You don't necessarily have to align yourself to hit down the center line. 

So just to make sure we're talking about the same thing - I wouldn't aim to start the ball down the centerline to hit the center of my dispersion cone.  Like Fawcett, I'll aim left of the center line to try to fade it back to the middle.  That's what makes that tree down the left close to the tee so maddening.  But if it weren't there, this hole would be a pushover.  There'd be no reason whatsoever to wind up in the penalty area right.

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What's in the bag:
Driver - :cobra-small: F8 - Aldila NV Blue 60 ( S )
3 Wood (16*) - :cobra-small: F8 - Aldila NV Blue 60 ( S )
3 Hybrid (19*) - :taylormade-small: RBZ
4i - PW - :wilson_staff_small: D7 Forged - Recoil 760 ( S )
GW - LW - :cobra-small: F8 - N.S. Pro Modus3 Tour105 ( S )
Putter - :ping-small: Craz-e
Bag - :1590477705_SunMountain: 2.5 (Black)
Ball -  :taylormade-small: TP5X Pix
Instagram - @hardcorelooper
Twitter - @meovino
Facebook - mike.eovino

 

 

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9 hours ago, THEZIPR23 said:

Buy a new driver that you hit 260 🤣. If 220 takes the penalty area out and doesn't bring anything else into play then that is the play. Leaving a wedge to the green even if it is a longer wedge is fine. If 220 doesn't remove the trouble or brings the bunkers into play then you may have to reassess. Is it any wider at 220? From the pic it appears it is the same width and 220 may bring the front of the hazard into play or bunkers? 55-60 yards is borderline for a driver but if there are no wider or better options send it is the right play. 

220 definitely takes the penalty area out of play.  It's about 210 to carry the bunker left, so it comes into play with the 19*.  But, I can hedge out to the right to avoid the bunker.  The right trees are pretty playable; it's the penalty area that's a problem.

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What's in the bag:
Driver - :cobra-small: F8 - Aldila NV Blue 60 ( S )
3 Wood (16*) - :cobra-small: F8 - Aldila NV Blue 60 ( S )
3 Hybrid (19*) - :taylormade-small: RBZ
4i - PW - :wilson_staff_small: D7 Forged - Recoil 760 ( S )
GW - LW - :cobra-small: F8 - N.S. Pro Modus3 Tour105 ( S )
Putter - :ping-small: Craz-e
Bag - :1590477705_SunMountain: 2.5 (Black)
Ball -  :taylormade-small: TP5X Pix
Instagram - @hardcorelooper
Twitter - @meovino
Facebook - mike.eovino

 

 

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11 hours ago, cnosil said:

5 years of DJ tee shots:  dispersion pattern 120 yards wide.   Throw away some outliers and maybe down to 80 yards wide. 

E2pi4HGXEAEUSlo?format=jpg&name=medium

Bryson and Brendon Todd over 2 years. 

E2o-grqWEAAlXq2?format=jpg&name=small

That’s over how many courses and in how many different weather conditions. I guarantee that if you someone’s looked at their patterns on a specific hole at a course they play frequently that pattern drops significantly. Which is what we are talking about here with playing the same course quite frequently.

10 hours ago, HardcoreLooper said:

57 yards is definitely narrower than my dispersion cone with my driver.  I'd be a much better player if I could average 250 off the tee and keep it to 57 yards side to side.  

If I set my start line down the left side of the triangle, just to the right of the tree, don't I bring that tree into play nearly 50% of the time?  I haven't done any analysis on this, but I'd have to think that I'm going to start the ball left of my intended start line about 50% of the time.  I've always thought that you need to aim to hit the center of your dispersion cone, because you're going to miss your start line left half the time and right half the time.

I’m not saying start it down the left side of the triangle. Look at the where the left side of the triangle meets the base of the triangle going across the fairway. Pic a spot inside of that like around where the cart path curves in front of the tree. Your normal ball flight is a fade with driver. You still have 40+ yards to work with for a ball to be in play and more than 50 yards for your ball to reach the penalty area. If you typical fade moves 120+ feet that at not a fade but a very bad slice. Even if you pull the ball which is what you say is a miss with fj e driver you are still in a spot to play your next shot to the green unless you snap hook it or have a big yank.

Use the full extent of the teeing area to your advantage. Setup on the right side of the tee box and aim down the inside of the cart path and swing away

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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6 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

That’s over how many courses and in how many different weather conditions. I guarantee that if you someone’s looked at their patterns on a specific hole at a course they play frequently that pattern drops significantly. Which is what we are talking about here with playing the same course quite frequently.

I doubt that is true, as a shot pattern is a shot pattern and on any given swing you don’t know where that ball will go.  I know on courses I play regularly my pattern doesn’t get any narrower.  

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Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15* set  to 16.5* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 816H1 19* set at 18* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  21*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
               :titelist-small: 915H 24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :callaway-small: 54-10S   :cleveland-small: 588  58-12
Putter:  :seemore-small: mFGP2

Backups:  :bobby-grace-1: 6330, :taylormade-small:TM-180, :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, Bellum Winmore 787

 

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

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2 minutes ago, cnosil said:

I doubt that is true, as a shot pattern is a shot pattern and on any given swing you don’t know where that ball will go.  I know on courses I play regularly my pattern doesn’t get any narrower.  

Every single digit handicap I play with or have played with has a predictable ball flight. Do they occasionally pull one or maybe fade/slice one that’s outside their norm? Yup which is obviously what leads to people having whatever their shot pattern is.

None of them or myself will stand on a tee thinking that my shot pattern is X and if I play my normal fade down the left side of the hole it will end up 50+ yards on the right. None are even worried about it being on the right half of the fairway. 
 

Again if a person has a ball that moves that far left to right they need lessons to fix their swing and control their ball flight better. 
 

 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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10 hours ago, HardcoreLooper said:

So just to make sure we're talking about the same thing - I wouldn't aim to start the ball down the centerline to hit the center of my dispersion cone.  Like Fawcett, I'll aim left of the center line to try to fade it back to the middle.  That's what makes that tree down the left close to the tee so maddening.  But if it weren't there, this hole would be a pushover.  There'd be no reason whatsoever to wind up in the penalty area right.

My view, if you're hitting driver, is you'd use the adapted cone, the one you did with the "fade path", and try to have the ball end up in the center of the zone.  This means you're lining up left of center, but not at the left limit of the cone.  As you say, that first tree limits your available options, so maybe its only 40 yards between a ball that whacks off the first tree, and a ball that ends up in the PA.  Giving up distance widens your available area significantly by taking the PA out of play.

Generally, I don't choose to give up distance when it doesn't widen my area of acceptable outcomes, my dispersion isn't that much tighter with a hybrid or 3-wood than it is with a driver.  This hole is different, which makes hitting hybrid look like a pretty good option.

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:callaway-small: Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X

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Right handed

Reston, Virginia

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3 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Every single digit handicap I play with or have played with has a predictable ball flight. Do they occasionally pull one or maybe fade/slice one that’s outside their norm? Yup which is obviously what leads to people having whatever their shot pattern is.

None of them or myself will stand on a tee thinking that my shot pattern is X and if I play my normal fade down the left side of the hole it will end up 50+ yards on the right. None are even worried about it being on the right half of the fairway. 
 

Again if a person has a ball that moves that far left to right they need lessons to fix their swing and control their ball flight better. 
 

 

I don’t disagree.  I play a fade off the tee and I can hit everything from a straight pull to a push slice.  But I establish my setup based on my shot pattern….I am generally on the right side of the tee box,  I align myself left of my target, and I expect the ball to curve to the middle of my pattern.  While I expect the tee shot to do what I visualized,  I also understand I could be left or in the example provided in this thread in the hazard area.  
 

when planning a hole strategy; which should really take place before you are even on the course, I take the entire shot pattern into consideration to determine where I could possibly end up and from there I determine my target line to optimize where the ball will end up.   Earlier You talked  about a hole that a player has played regularly and how the pattern will be reduced.  I believe that simply means the player has an established plan on how to play the hole.  They have sight lines and know how the hole will play.  On tour the player should have  a plan for every hole; that is what they use the yardage book and practice rounds to obtain.  Familiarity with a hole does not change how I hit the ball on any given swing, they are independent things, it  does influence my target line.  

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Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15* set  to 16.5* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 816H1 19* set at 18* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  21*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
               :titelist-small: 915H 24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :callaway-small: 54-10S   :cleveland-small: 588  58-12
Putter:  :seemore-small: mFGP2

Backups:  :bobby-grace-1: 6330, :taylormade-small:TM-180, :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, Bellum Winmore 787

 

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

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2 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

None of them or myself will stand on a tee thinking that my shot pattern is X and if I play my normal fade down the left side of the hole it will end up 50+ yards on the right. None are even worried about it being on the right half of the fairway. 

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

As you say, that first tree limits your available options, so maybe its only 40 yards between a ball that whacks off the first tree, and a ball that ends up in the PA.  Giving up distance widens your available area significantly by taking the PA out of play.

I'll quote myself for @RickyBobby_PR to read, to me this is the critical thing.  Given his moderate fade, the OP has about a 40-yard window between two rather disastrous consequences, at driver distance.  Left of the window, his ball hits a tree about 100 yards off the tee, right of the window he's in a Penalty Area or lost.  How many of your single digit players (I'm playing off 5 now, I'm in that group) can keep it within 20 yards of the center of the pattern most of the time.  Maybe they hit 30 or even 40% of their drivers outside of that window.  I've read that DEcade suggests a 70-yard window be considered for most players, 40 yards is incredibly small.  Every single time the tee shot is outside of that window, the cost is at least one stroke, and at least sometimes two strokes.  Given that by dropping back to hybrid, the OP has the chance to expand his "window" to 60 or 70 yards, and the worst result is a ball playable in the trees.  Outside of an unplayable lie, penalty strokes are off the table.  I drive the ball pretty straight, but to me the increased window makes the hybrid the better choice.

 

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:titelist-small: Irons Titleist AP2 714, KBS Tour S, 3 flat

:callaway-small: Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X

:vokey-small: 52, 56, and 60 wedges

:ping-small: B60 G5i putter

Right handed

Reston, Virginia

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