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Why aren't there more links courses on the PGA Tour?


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5 minutes ago, sixcat said:

it's links golf. It's not meant to be fair. You're forced to control your ball. The game is played as much on the ground as it is in the air.

I agree, this is the essence of playing real links golf.  I've been lucky enough to have visited Scotland and Ireland a couple times each, and I've enjoyed (and been frustrated by) the effects of the terrain on the results of the shot.  Not just macro-terrain, not just the big features, but little humps and hollows that are completely unpredictable from more than a few yards away.  I'll be really interested when I visit Sand Valley next week to see how it compares.  I expect to see links-like conditions with the sand base and fescue fairways, but its the micro-contouring which would have to be man-made.  Time will tell.

 

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14 minutes ago, sixcat said:

I do agree. Not only do we not have the turf, we don't have the seaside land available anywhere in the world to replicate it. Bandon would come the closest but even then, it's not exact. Whistling Straits isn't close in my opinion. It's contrived and doesn't resemble anything else in the surrounding area.

I harken back to Rory McIlroy's interview from earlier in the week. When asked about the history of the best players in the world complaining about the humps, bumps and blind shots at Royal St. George's, Rory said (paraphrasing) "it's links golf. It's not meant to be fair. You're forced to control your ball. The game is played as much on the ground as it is in the air. I'm just happy to be back playing links golf again. It's been, what, two years since Portrush?"

The reporter followed up by asking if he meant Open Championship golf or links golf? After all, the PGA was at Kiawah? Rory smiled and said "Kiawah isn't links golf! It's not an apples to apples comparison. I'm not sure your still comparing fruit at that point. It's apples to onions."

 

And this is where we get into the subjective rather than the objective. 
 

We have though answered the OPs question - I would also agree that you can’t replicate a links course like the ones found on the British Isles until such times as you are able to find similar land and use similar grasses.

 

In regards to Whistling it is what it is. I think that both of us have played there. It’s not my favorite Pete Dye course nor do I hate it.  I prefer the Blackwood run courses and particularly Meadow Valley because it fits the landscape so beautifully. I also prefer Sawgrass to Whistling and probably the Irish course, too.

 

What a lot of people don’t know us that Dye originally had fescue through the course at Whistling. The PGA insisted on reseeding it prior to it hosting a PGA tournament. That completely changed the courses character.

 

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2 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I agree, this is the essence of playing real links golf.  I've been lucky enough to have visited Scotland and Ireland a couple times each, and I've enjoyed (and been frustrated by) the effects of the terrain on the results of the shot.  Not just macro-terrain, not just the big features, but little humps and hollows that are completely unpredictable from more than a few yards away.  I'll be really interested when I visit Sand Valley next week to see how it compares.  I expect to see links-like conditions with the sand base and fescue fairways, but its the micro-contouring which would have to be man-made.  Time will tell.

 

But is the fact that it’s man made inherently bad? If you don’t have the topography why is it wrong to build it in? 

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Just now, revkev said:

But is the fact that it’s man made inherently bad? If you don’t have the topography why is it wrong to build it in? 

Not at all.  I think it takes real attention to detail to build humps and hollows that are irregular enough to seem natural, and that give an appropriate (but not excessive) randomness to golf.   And at this stage, we don't have a lot of choices, everything we're likely to see is going to be artificial to some extent.  To be honest, I've played links that are generally "smooth", and others that are extremely "rumpled".  They've all been fun.

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1 hour ago, revkev said:

But is the fact that it’s man made inherently bad? If you don’t have the topography why is it wrong to build it in? 

From a design civil engineering perspective (something @DaveP043and I have both done professionally for a long time) it's not inherently bad as long as it's well designed and thought out. When it's not, it creates an environmental mess that will have to be addressed at some point down the road. Jack Nicklaus courses are notorious for skirting environmental regulations. As is many of Dye's designs where he has been able to get away with it. See TPC Sawgrass and Kiawah! In my personal opinion, Nicklaus uses his celebrity to get away with things Dye wasn't always able to. Listen to The Fried Egg Podcast episode from March 6th called "Fried Egg Stories (Rerelease): The Making of TPC Sawgrass" They do a much better job explaining it than I could.

Golf course design isn't really any different in this regard than any other aspect of society. For instance, sinkholes don't typically happen as part of a natural phenomenon. They are almost always a result of poorly designed, poorly constructed, poorly maintained stormwater collection systems. The faulty buried pipe becomes silted (or blocked with debris) and fails. Once failure happens, the pipe begins to break down and leak. The leak washes away the disturbed ground around where original construction took place. 

1 hour ago, revkev said:

In regards to Whistling it is what it is. I think that both of us have played there. It’s not my favorite Pete Dye course nor do I hate it.  I prefer the Blackwood run courses and particularly Meadow Valley because it fits the landscape so beautifully. I also prefer Sawgrass to Whistling and probably the Irish course, too.

What a lot of people don’t know us that Dye originally had fescue through the course at Whistling. The PGA insisted on reseeding it prior to it hosting a PGA tournament. That completely changed the courses character.

My only real issue with Whistling Straits is the fact that it's manufactured. Admittedly, I am spoiled! I grew up playing golf in the sandy pines of southern Virginia, North Carolina and South Carolina. It's what golf looks like to me. Everything fits the surrounding topography. Nothing looks or feels contrived.

Whistling is the opposite. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the experience. But not enough to chose going back again over going to Pinehurst, Bandon, Streamsong or the UK.

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Just now, alfriday101 said:

Some of the most "links like" courses I have played are in Nebraska, about as far from the sea as you can get.   

And I think they're in similar geologic settings to the courses I'll be playing next week in Wisconsin, sand deposits laid down during the retreat of the glaciers.  That's one reason I'm looking forward to my time there, so see whether these inland "links" play similarly to the "true links" I've played overseas.  Of course, that's secondary to getting together with a bunch of buddies to play golf, gamble for a couple of bucks, and insult one another.

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Just now, DaveP043 said:

And I think they're in similar geologic settings to the courses I'll be playing next week in Wisconsin, sand deposits laid down during the retreat of the glaciers.  That's one reason I'm looking forward to my time there, so see whether these inland "links" play similarly to the "true links" I've played overseas.  Of course, that's secondary to getting together with a bunch of buddies to play golf, gamble for a couple of bucks, and insult one another.

I'm interested in hearing your thoughts about the Wisconsin courses.  They are about a 10 hour drive for me.  I loved Bandon and the way the courses were so similar to some of the courses in Scotland and Ireland.  A weekend trip to Wisconsin would be a lot easier than a trip to the coast or across the pond.  Wildhorse is only 4 hours away from me.  I love playing the Sandhills but no longer have a contact to get me on.  Hope you enjoy your trip.    

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9 minutes ago, alfriday101 said:

I'm interested in hearing your thoughts about the Wisconsin courses.  They are about a 10 hour drive for me.  I loved Bandon and the way the courses were so similar to some of the courses in Scotland and Ireland.  A weekend trip to Wisconsin would be a lot easier than a trip to the coast or across the pond.  Wildhorse is only 4 hours away from me.  I love playing the Sandhills but no longer have a contact to get me on.  Hope you enjoy your trip.    

Thanks, I'll post something for sure.  We're also playing Lawsonia Links and Lac La Belle, which are decidedly NOT links-like courses.  It'll be an interesting contrast in styles.

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Back at Sixcat I brought up the grass change at Whistling not because I love the course, I like it but prefer the other Dye offerings in Kohler because they fit the land better to my eye. I brought it up because it fits with a point that I’ve seen you make, one that I completely agree with, namely that the PGA homogenizes the courses that it uses. 
 

Beyond a doubt my favorite courses are the ones that use the land they are built on. There should be a difference between a course here and one in the hills of Virginia or coastal New England where I grew up or Wisconsin or Indiana where I lived for ten years. 
 

I honestly can’t say that I prefer the courses in any of those places. 
 

I just like golf 🙂

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13 hours ago, revkev said:

I just like golf 🙂

Perfect statement!!!

My issue is of my own doing. It's something of an occupational hazard. Being in this profession for 27 years has left me observing my surroundings with a "trained eye." It's a habit I'm trying to force myself away from. I thoroughly enjoy the game of golf. Playing a bad golf course is better than the best day in my office, hands down! I need to stop over-analyzing and enjoy the game I love.

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5 hours ago, Shankster said:

What about The Golf Links of America by Shinnecock?  Looks nice, but you have to be a zillionare to get a tee time, and another couple zillion just to become a member.  And probably $900 Gatorade’s…

I have a friend whose played it twice - I’ve seen it as a fan at a couple of US Opens. It’s a beautiful course. 

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On 7/16/2021 at 1:14 PM, revkev said:

I have a friend whose played it twice - I’ve seen it as a fan at a couple of US Opens. It’s a beautiful course. 

I think he was referring to National Golf Links, not Shinnecock. 
NGL is probably too short for the Tour and likely the members don’t want the hassle. And Shinnecock is right next to it, which itself does have links qualities. 

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I see homogenized courses have entered the conversation.

I've seen about all the railroad ties I want for my next two lives. 

Bunkering - From the wild and wooly at the Scottish Open to the sod faced pits at Royal St. George and other Open rota. US designers are a blind-following-blind troop. Firm, banked faces so the ball rolls nicely down to a flat firm base. Oh the bitching and moaning a few years back at Memorial when Nicklaus used bunker rakes that left small (small) ridges. You'd have thought that he was stealing food from their mouths with the complaints. Most of the tour fairway bunkers are a minor hindrance, perhaps even better than the nearby rough for play. Mad howling if the players could only advance the ball instead of getting pin yardages. It's a damn hazard. Make it play like one. Steep faces.

Next rant. No green books next year for any courses. No anchoring - arm lock crap. Putter held in the hands only. Clubs can make local rules for anyone with a disability needing help holding the club. 

Time for a Snickers bar.

Steve Smith

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 7/15/2021 at 5:27 PM, alfriday101 said:

I'm interested in hearing your thoughts about the Wisconsin courses.  They are about a 10 hour drive for me.  I loved Bandon and the way the courses were so similar to some of the courses in Scotland and Ireland.  A weekend trip to Wisconsin would be a lot easier than a trip to the coast or across the pond.  Wildhorse is only 4 hours away from me.  I love playing the Sandhills but no longer have a contact to get me on.  Hope you enjoy your trip.    

Well, I survived my trip, and had a blast.  Pertinent to this discussion, Sand Valley, Mammoth Dunes, and the Sandbox (17 holes par-3) played very much like the Scottish and Irish links of my memory from tee to green, very firm and very tightly cropped grass.  Putting was very reasonable from a long ways away, as were any number of chip and run options, and balls could bounce onto the green from well short when the terrain allowed it.  What was different was that the greens were very firm (typical of links), pretty dang fast (not typical), and very contoured(not typical), something that I don't remember from my trips abroad.  

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i'm playing Trump Links Ferry Point this weekend.  is ferry point not considered a links course? i haven't seen it mentioned in this thread.

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24 minutes ago, Chip Strokes said:

i'm playing Trump Links Ferry Point this weekend.  is ferry point not considered a links course? i haven't seen it mentioned in this thread.

From a traditionalist standpoint, it wouldn't qualify based on its geologic setting, as its built on a closed landfill.  But its possible that the fill soil imported to build it could give it a very links-like playing character.  Is it mostly sand, is the grass cut very short, does it play really firm?  In the photos I've seen, the fairways and greens look to be a very bright green, lush, which isn't typical of either the grass or the maintenance practices at links-like courses.  If I remember correctly from the 2014 US Open, Mr. Trump really disliked the "brown" look at Pinehurst #2, so he may have chosen to have his course be maintained to a different standard than real links.

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11 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

From a traditionalist standpoint, it wouldn't qualify based on its geologic setting, as its built on a closed landfill.  But its possible that the fill soil imported to build it could give it a very links-like playing character.  Is it mostly sand, is the grass cut very short, does it play really firm?  In the photos I've seen, the fairways and greens look to be a very bright green, lush, which isn't typical of either the grass or the maintenance practices at links-like courses.  If I remember correctly from the 2014 US Open, Mr. Trump really disliked the "brown" look at Pinehurst #2, so he may have chosen to have his course be maintained to a different standard than real links.

thanks for the breakdown, Dave.  i'll get back to you with answers after my round saturday.  

i know it's really windy, being a peninsula set out in the bay. and there are no trees, just tall mounds of fescue.  so maybe it's "links" in name and appearance only

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6 minutes ago, Shankster said:

Enjoy that.  Looks beautiful, and fun.  Take some pictures of the place! 

interesting weekend i've got coming up.  

trump links on saturday, then a local 9 hole goat track on sunday morning.  

i should make a thread comparing the two 😂

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I would wonder how much it has to do with having patrons on the course. Really not a lot of places to stand or put seating if everything is in play

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6 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

Well, I survived my trip, and had a blast.  Pertinent to this discussion, Sand Valley, Mammoth Dunes, and the Sandbox (17 holes par-3) played very much like the Scottish and Irish links of my memory from tee to green, very firm and very tightly cropped grass.  Putting was very reasonable from a long ways away, as were any number of chip and run options, and balls could bounce onto the green from well short when the terrain allowed it.  What was different was that the greens were very firm (typical of links), pretty dang fast (not typical), and very contoured(not typical), something that I don't remember from my trips abroad.  

Thanks for the info.  On my "to play" list.  

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6 hours ago, Chip Strokes said:

i'm playing Trump Links Ferry Point this weekend.  is ferry point not considered a links course? i haven't seen it mentioned in this thread.

If you ever get an invite out to some of those courses out on Long Island, and you are looking for a Shanker… let me know.  
 

I almost got stationed right near Shinnecock… that would have been torture being right there and never getting to play it.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 7/28/2021 at 12:22 PM, Chip Strokes said:

interesting weekend i've got coming up.  

trump links on saturday, then a local 9 hole goat track on sunday morning.  

i should make a thread comparing the two 😂

OK, time for me to nag you, how did it go at Ferry Point, and at the goat track?

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15 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

OK, time for me to nag you, how did it go at Ferry Point, and at the goat track?

ferry point was beautiful.  it was an expensive day and the course was pretty tough.  not something i'd do more than once a year.  

the goat track was pretty awesome and i'll be going back again and again.  so laid back and easygoing there.  a little buggy around the "pond" on the 7th hole but other than that, just fine.

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6 minutes ago, Chip Strokes said:

ferry point was beautiful.  it was an expensive day and the course was pretty tough.  not something i'd do more than once a year.  

And to the topic of this thread, did you think Ferry Point played the way you believe a "links course" should play?

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1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

And to the topic of this thread, did you think Ferry Point played the way you believe a "links course" should play?

it's definitely not a "true links" course going off of the definition you provided.  

BUT...

it's windy, it looks like a links course, the fairways are full of undulations, and the fescue is brutal.  

i think i hit from more uphill downhill and sidehill lies that round than i have the rest of the season combined.

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