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I’m losing on average about 6 strokes per round from 150 and in compared to a scratch golfer.  I need to take a look at my strategy, and what club I’m hitting from these distances.  Worked on some more compact swings with the 58° out in the yard. This should be a PW (44°), 48°, 54° or a 58°.  Need to focus on accuracy here and not Brysoning the ball.
 

A “half” probably more like 3/4 goes 80 yards on a rope.  Now I just have to fill in the blank for 90, 100, 110, etc.  I’ve been taking full swings at 100-110 yards with the 58, and it is not always very accurate swinging full out.  Hoping that the 54° at 3/4 is 100, and the 48° is 115.  That would be great for those shorter distances.  I’d just have to commit to the smaller swing.  

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1 hour ago, Shankster said:

I’m losing on average about 6 strokes per round from 150 and in compared to a scratch golfer.  I need to take a look at my strategy, and what club I’m hitting from these distances.  Worked on some more compact swings with the 58° out in the yard. This should be a PW (44°), 48°, 54° or a 58°.  Need to focus on accuracy here and not Brysoning the ball.
 

A “half” probably more like 3/4 goes 80 yards on a rope.  Now I just have to fill in the blank for 90, 100, 110, etc.  I’ve been taking full swings at 100-110 yards with the 58, and it is not always very accurate swinging full out.  Hoping that the 54° at 3/4 is 100, and the 48° is 115.  That would be great for those shorter distances.  I’d just have to commit to the smaller swing.  

I'd challenge you to look a little deeper and see if your swing is really why you are losing those strokes.   What is your proximity to the hole from say 30-75 yards, 75-125, and 125-175?   Are you shooting at pins or are you selecting good targets and not trying to force shots to make birdies?

 

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Just now, cnosil said:

I'd challenge you to look a little deeper and see if your swing is really why you are losing those strokes.   What is your proximity to the hole from say 30-75 yards, 75-125, and 125-175?   Are you shooting at pins or are you selecting good targets and not trying to force shots to make birdies?

 

Well, for the most part the hole locations are pretty benign. Nothing tucked usually. Sometimes there are a few that are back right there I’m having a hard time getting to lately without the fade.  
 

Anything long is dead on the course that I play, like gone. So if I’m going to miss, it will be short.

 

Honestly I haven’t had too many 30 or in shots that I can recall.  As far as the other shots, I don’t know because I don’t set the flagstick location or Arccos.  Maybe I should.

 

Most of my approach shots fall in this range, so I need to tidy something up.  
 

Ever since I started playing I am aiming at the flagstick, that’s what they are for right? 🙃

 

I thought I was doing pretty well until I looked at the numbers.  Could be skewed I guess since I don’t set the hole locations.

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14 minutes ago, Shankster said:

Well, for the most part the hole locations are pretty benign. Nothing tucked usually. Sometimes there are a few that are back right there I’m having a hard time getting to lately without the fade.  
 

Anything long is dead on the course that I play, like gone. So if I’m going to miss, it will be short.

 

Honestly I haven’t had too many 30 or in shots that I can recall.  As far as the other shots, I don’t know because I don’t set the flagstick location or Arccos.  Maybe I should.

 

Most of my approach shots fall in this range, so I need to tidy something up.  
 

Ever since I started playing I am aiming at the flagstick, that’s what they are for right? 🙃

 

I thought I was doing pretty well until I looked at the numbers.  Could be skewed I guess since I don’t set the hole locations.

you're losing strokes,  are you missing greens and trying to hit more?  Are you hitting greens and just not getting it close?  short isn't bad if there is trouble long.  I'd personally reassess the strategy of aiming at every flagstick;  but that is just me.      

I think you need to have a better understanding of why you are losing the strokes.  There has to be more too it that just saying 150 and in.  

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I don't understand the "draw" thing.  Wedges shouldn't draw much, and it's difficult to make them move one way or the other... unless you're Bubba!  😂

At that range the ball should be going straight.  Yeah, I know, Ben Hogan said a straight ball is an accident, but I think most pros flight their ball down and hit it straight, even Zack Johnson.

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Just now, Kenny B said:

I don't understand the "draw" thing.  Wedges shouldn't draw much, and it's difficult to make them move one way or the other... unless you're Bubba!  😂

At that range the ball should be going straight.  Yeah, I know, Ben Hogan said a straight ball is an accident, but I think most pros flight their ball down and hit it straight, even Zack Johnson.

The PW can Bubba it, I used to practice hitting all sorts of shapes with all of my clubs, but have went to a stock shot now. The 54° hasn’t had a chance yet.  Only hit it a few times.  The 58° is usually pretty straight, But I tend to pull it on my miss with it, sometimes leading to a pull draw.

 

I don’t practice anymore.  It made me worse, I am not lying.  I was practicing myself into playing crap golf every year.  Not happening this year.  Haha.

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1 hour ago, Shankster said:

I do miss greens.  I’m less than 50% I’d say on average.  Usually left….

This generally happens when I am swinging too hard with the short irons/wedges.  I've found that I'm much more accurate with distance and direction using more club at 1/2 and 3/4 swings -- additionally, the ball contact is much crisper and I get great spin control with that shot.  I spend a lot of time at a practice hole at our club working on partial shots with everything from the LW to PW .... I rarely hit a full LW, SW, or AW anymore.

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10 hours ago, CarlH said:

This generally happens when I am swinging too hard with the short irons/wedges.  I've found that I'm much more accurate with distance and direction using more club at 1/2 and 3/4 swings -- additionally, the ball contact is much crisper and I get great spin control with that shot.  I spend a lot of time at a practice hole at our club working on partial shots with everything from the LW to PW .... I rarely hit a full LW, SW, or AW anymore.

If I swing easy they go even further left.  It’s a swing flaw for sure, but I’m making it work for the most part.

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12 hours ago, Shankster said:

I do miss greens.  I’m less than 50% I’d say on average.  Usually left….

First goal should be to hit more greens which may Mean not shooting at all the pins.  
 

let me ask this: how close do you expect to hit the ball from these distances.  I personally don't think this is a single answer so break it down however you normally would break something like this down.  

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13 hours ago, Shankster said:

Well, for the most part the hole locations are pretty benign. Nothing tucked usually. Sometimes there are a few that are back right there I’m having a hard time getting to lately without the fade.  
 

Anything long is dead on the course that I play, like gone. So if I’m going to miss, it will be short.

 

Honestly I haven’t had too many 30 or in shots that I can recall.  As far as the other shots, I don’t know because I don’t set the flagstick location or Arccos.  Maybe I should.

 

Most of my approach shots fall in this range, so I need to tidy something up.  
 

Ever since I started playing I am aiming at the flagstick, that’s what they are for right? 🙃

 

I thought I was doing pretty well until I looked at the numbers.  Could be skewed I guess since I don’t set the hole locations.

I hit 14 greens yesterday, I aimed at 3 pins (and those were from inside 50 yards). I was a little more conservative than normal as I was playing match play and had a lead pretty much all day, but pars are way easier from the green. 

12 hours ago, Shankster said:

The PW can Bubba it, I used to practice hitting all sorts of shapes with all of my clubs, but have went to a stock shot now. The 54° hasn’t had a chance yet.  Only hit it a few times.  The 58° is usually pretty straight, But I tend to pull it on my miss with it, sometimes leading to a pull draw.

 

I don’t practice anymore.  It made me worse, I am not lying.  I was practicing myself into playing crap golf every year.  Not happening this year.  Haha.

Been there done that. Practice is great but you have to have a plan for practice and then commit to execution of that as much as a round of golf. 

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4 minutes ago, THEZIPR23 said:

pars are way easier from the green. 

So are the birdies that everyone wants.  

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41 minutes ago, cnosil said:

First goal should be to hit more greens which may Mean not shooting at all the pins.  
 

let me ask this: how close do you expect to hit the ball from these distances.  I personally don't think this is a single answer so break it down however you normally would break something like this down.  

In the hole of course.  I don’t know, I’m just using Arccos’ stats.  I’m losing strokes with the scoring clubs, could be a proximity thing?  I rarely 3 putt anymore so it is not that.  Putting is on fire really for me.
 

I get the whole aim at the center of the green thing.  Usually the flagstick is there anyways or close by, nothing too tricky.

 

Ill have to mark the flagstick location so I can see how far I am away.  But losing strokes from the fairway isn’t good. 

 

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1 hour ago, Shankster said:

If I swing easy they go even further left.  It’s a swing flaw for sure, but I’m making it work for the most part.

Oh!  oops!

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1 hour ago, Shankster said:

In the hole of course.  I don’t know, I’m just using Arccos’ stats.  I’m losing strokes with the scoring clubs, could be a proximity thing?  I rarely 3 putt anymore so it is not that.  Putting is on fire really for me.
 

I get the whole aim at the center of the green thing.  Usually the flagstick is there anyways or close by, nothing too tricky.

 

Ill have to mark the flagstick location so I can see how far I am away.  But losing strokes from the fairway isn’t good. 

 

It isn’t aim at the center; it is aiming at the correct spot based on dispersion.   Everyone hits balls left and right of their target and by a wider margin than they want to believe. I also don’t know you green sizes.  The reason I asked how far you think you should be front the hole is people very often have unreal expectations.  And based on your answer I am guessing you really think you should be closer than you are hence this thread.  
PGA tour average proximity to the hole is 37.6’; from 125-150 the average is 23.6’ and they hit the green on average 70% of the time; from 50-125 they average 19.1’ from the hole.  
 

Arccos stats are fine, but let’s look at the numbers it is based on.  I don’t know the baseline for Arccos but Strokes gained numbers on the PGA tour are:

150 - 2.95, 140 - 2.91, 130 - 2.88, 120 - 2.85…..   note they are all under 3.  
LPGA dips below 3 at 130

so that means if you don’t birdie from 150 and in you are losing strokes.   Here is a great example ;  let’s say every approach shot you had was 100 yards and you got a par on every hole.  You shot 72 but lost 3.6 strokes because stroke gained for 100 yards is 2.8

 

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1 hour ago, Shankster said:

In the hole of course.  I don’t know, I’m just using Arccos’ stats.  I’m losing strokes with the scoring clubs, could be a proximity thing?  I rarely 3 putt anymore so it is not that.  Putting is on fire really for me.
 

I get the whole aim at the center of the green thing.  Usually the flagstick is there anyways or close by, nothing too tricky.

 

Ill have to mark the flagstick location so I can see how far I am away.  But losing strokes from the fairway isn’t good. 

 

I think what @cnosil is getting at, or maybe just wondering, is if your GIR issues stem from being over-aggressive trying to force birdies rather than letting birdies happen.  If your approach shot dispersion isn't as tight as you'd like it, that should probably compel you to pick more conservative targets rather than firing at every pin, which is really never a good strategy no matter how squared away your ball-striking is.

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21 minutes ago, Shankster said:

This is why I aim at the flag.  Eventually one is going to go down.

 

You can play whatever strategy you want but how do you know he was aiming at the flag?  He could have been aiming 20 feet right and pulled the shot.  

What is more important to understand is the dispersion pattern.  Here are Rory and JT hitting 50 shots from 148 yards on a tee with no on course pressure;  look at the total dispersion of balls.  

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14 minutes ago, Shankster said:

I guess I should clarify. I aim at the spot where I think I should start it, but have it end on the flag.  So for my PW it is about 3-5 yards right to account for the draw.  If I aimed at the flag it would be off the green a lot of times.

you are still aiming at flags, just accounting for the draw and not taking the total dispersion pattern into consideration.   This  potentially results in difficult up and downs and the lost strokes gained shots that you talked about in the first post.     My point wasn't that Jiminez was aiming at a spot to hit the flag, but aiming at a spot to minimize the chance for a bogey.  

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I get what you are saying,  I do this with my tee shots.  Trying to set up the best approach.  Sometimes it works, others it doesn’t.
 

But I if I took in account for my worst shots I’d be aimed at a completely different hole sometimes.

Ive always been an aggressive player, and a horseshoe player.  You aren’t aiming for anything but the stake.  I guess I don’t understand the whole concept, the green is only so big.

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@cnosilAre you steering toward Decade here? Sounds like what I’ve read about it. 

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This hole, and the location of the little white dot on the green is a common set up.  There is a very subtle two tier on this green.  Short Is dead, long is dead, left is dead, right is meh...  I usually aim at the bunker on the right a play a draw off of it, regardless of the top or bottom tier location.  Being on the right tier is a must here.

I don’t know my side to side dispersion, but front to back is pretty decent with the shorter clubs.  This would be a full 48°.

 

what am I not looking at that I should be?

4F6D0265-B4B0-4C0A-AC50-130D019E45DB.png

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57 minutes ago, PMookie said:

@cnosilAre you steering toward Decade here? Sounds like what I’ve read about it. 

I’m sure he is, and he’s right.  It comes down to understanding that we’re out there firing shotguns, not sniper rifles. Going for every flag, whether accounting for a draw, fade, or straight shot, is generally too aggressive and doesn’t account for the dispersion pattern of that shotgun.

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            :taylormade-small: Stealth DHY 4H, :Fuji:Ventus Blue 8 S, 80g Stiff

Irons: :edel-golf-1: SMS 5-6, SMS Pro 7-PW, Aerotech Steelfiber i95 Stiff

Wedges: :vokey-small:SM9 48 F Grind, 52 F Grind, 56 M Grind, Aerotech Steelfiber i95 Stiff

Putter: :odyssey-small: Sri-Hot 5K Triple Wide, Stroke Lab shaft

Ball: :titelist-small: Pro V1

Click here for my HONMA TR20 Official Review!  :honma:

Click here for my Arccos Caddie Bundle Official Review!   :Arccos:

Click here for my Edel SMS & SMS Pro Irons Official Review:edel-golf-1:

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48 minutes ago, PMookie said:

@cnosilAre you steering toward Decade here? Sounds like what I’ve read about it. 

yep, steering toward DECADE type stragegy.

48 minutes ago, Shankster said:

This hole, and the location of the little white dot on the green is a common set up.  There is a very subtle two tier on this green.  Short Is dead, long is dead, left is dead, right is meh...  I usually aim at the bunker on the right a play a draw off of it, regardless of the top or bottom tier location.  Being on the right tier is a must here.

I don’t know my side to side dispersion, but front to back is pretty decent with the shorter clubs.  This would be a full 48°.

 

what am I not looking at that I should be?

4F6D0265-B4B0-4C0A-AC50-130D019E45DB.png

Seems like you are looking at everything correctly on this hole. 

 

Lets look at more details.  Your first post was about stroke gained and losing shots; par on this hole loses you .1 strokes and based on your description par is a good score and you should walk off happy with that score.  The strokes gained number reinforces that.  

Based on the quoted post:  Short Is dead, long is dead, left is dead, right is meh.     Google earth shows this green is 15 yard wide and 30 yard deep.  Drawing in a dispersion pattern that is probably close to accurate;  it will skew long left and short right as shown by the circle.   At 142 yards with a 15 yard wide green you want to be slightly right of the greens midline from front to back to favor the right miss since every other direction is dead.  Target line for the green in the picture below is probably just left of the right bunker.  If the pin is back, you can probably move the line a few yards left.    you mention being on the right tier;  based on a dispersion pattern like the one shown,  some will be on the right tier and some won't.  

hole.jpg.8164b23de4a866e7d47c5561156a6f72.jpg

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15*  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :titleist-small: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite
Putter:   :taylormade-small:TM-180

Testing:   SPGC_logo.jpg

Backups:  :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, :seemore-small: mFGP2, :cameron-small: Futura 5W

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

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Thanks.  I was not trying to be argumentative, just trying to figure out the logic behind it all.  Makes sense.  That is how I look at everything, I do play to miss on the “best” spot if I do miss hit it.  For example, if the stick is 2 from the left and 3 on, I set up to play for giving myself the room on the right.

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29 minutes ago, cnosil said:

yep, steering toward DECADE type stragegy.

Seems like you are looking at everything correctly on this hole. 

 

Lets look at more details.  Your first post was about stroke gained and losing shots; par on this hole loses you .1 strokes and based on your description par is a good score and you should walk off happy with that score.  The strokes gained number reinforces that.  

Based on the quoted post:  Short Is dead, long is dead, left is dead, right is meh.     Google earth shows this green is 15 yard wide and 30 yard deep.  Drawing in a dispersion pattern that is probably close to accurate;  it will skew long left and short right as shown by the circle.   At 142 yards with a 15 yard wide green you want to be slightly right of the greens midline from front to back to favor the right miss since every other direction is dead.  Target line for the green in the picture below is probably just left of the right bunker.  If the pin is back, you can probably move the line a few yards left.    you mention being on the right tier;  based on a dispersion pattern like the one shown,  some will be on the right tier and some won't.  

hole.jpg.8164b23de4a866e7d47c5561156a6f72.jpg

Does the Decade app get you the ability to access the Google Earth pics and put-in the dispersion ovals? Wondering how to measure the green then put those on the image. I’m computer illiterate 

Driver: Ping G430 Max 9*, Ping Tour 70X

Fairway: Ping G425 15*, Ping Tour 70X

Hybrid: Ping G425 22*, Ping Tour 80X

Irons:  Ping i230 4-GW, TT DG X100

Wedges: :edel-golf-1: SMS 50D/54V/58D:Nippon:Modus 130 stiff, +1”

Putter:  :edel-golf-1: EAS 1.0

Ball: Titleist 2023 AVX

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