Your "go to" Sand Wedge

[fixyurdivot]

Hey Spies, for those around the green shots out of the trap, what loft and bounce wedge is the one you pull most often? 

For years I played a McGregor "sand wedge" which was a hand me down from my Dad.  I liked playing it just for history. I honestly have no idea what the loft on the club is today - though suspect 54 or 56.  It worked OK but I finally decided to retire it. When I got the G410 irons, I included the UW and picked up a Glide 2.0 56/12 in lieu of the G410 SW.  I played around with both the UW and Glide for sand hots and tended to pull the UW a bit more often as I seemed to have a bit more consistency. It is a 12 deg bounce as well but only 50 deg loft. 

I have the AW in the new ZX5 set (50 deg) but I don't know what the bounce is on a v-sole. I love it's play out of the ruff and tight lies but not too certain it's a good option as a close in sand wedge?  Most information suggests 54-58 deg and 10-14 bounce.  Should I just get focused on the Glide 56/12 for sand work or might another arrow be worth considering? 

[dlow206]

I use to (as of very recent) been the worst bunker player that existed. Two to three shots to get out of the bunker and then barely get out.

Now I am almost always out in one, and the shots are respectable. I partially attribute it to my newest 58 degree wedge, Edel T-Grind. Bounce is unknown (Edel no longer provides a specific number). But seems to be very forgiving and work with my swing. 

[Chip Strokes]

for as bad as i am at golf, i’m a damn good bunker player. 

vokey sm8 f grind in 56/14

wide base, weight all on the left leg, open the face, and slap the living hell out of the sand an inch or two behind the ball 

[DiscipleofPenick]

I have a Vokey oil can 54/10 that I use out of green side bunkers. I know it's a bit old, but I know I can get out every time with a very simple swing. And this is my 100 yard club so I feel like I'll never miss the green with it. You can pry it out of my cold dead hands.

[fixyurdivot]

1 hour ago, dlow206 said:

I use to (as of very recent) been the worst bunker player that existed. Two to three shots to get out of the bunker and then barely get out.

Now I am almost always out in one, and the shots are respectable. I partially attribute it to my newest 58 degree wedge, Edel T-Grind. Bounce is unknown (Edel no longer provides a specific number). But seems to be very forgiving and work with my swing. 

So it's true... you can in fact buy lower scoring?   Pretty cool that a simple club change brought BIG improvement.  What had you been using prior to the Edel?

[Shankster]

Seve once claimed that he was the best bunker player.

 

I, however… have not claimed that.  I actually prefer a low bounce SW… but, the bunkers here… none of them are the same consistency… weird.

so, I just do my best to avoid them.  As much as possible.

[dlow206]

2 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

So it's true... you can in fact buy lower scoring?   Pretty cool that a simple club change brought BIG improvement.  What had you been using prior to the Edel?

I probably slightly improved technique, but not enough to be this much better out of the bunker. Prior to the Edel wedge, i had a Cleveland CBX Full Face wedge. I think what helps about the Edel with the T-grind is that you don't have to open up the face much at all to expose the bounce. So I can play the bunker shot with an almost square face. When I have to open the face up too much, that's when I start hitting the hosel rockets. 

This is more about the T-grind Edel:

"The T-Grind is a triple sole grind with three surfaces; utilizing a high bounce leading edge, followed by a crescent shaped lower bounce surface, and extreme heel relief. This grind is optimal for golfers with a moderate to steep angle of attack with normal sized divot. These three surfaces allow you to open the face without increasing the effective bounce for better performance on tight lies."

[Kenny B]

For years I played at a course that had no bunkers, so when I did play a course with bunkers, I was absolutely horrible.  On a whim I tried the Callaway 2019 PM Grind 54º and 60º wedges, and I don't see me changing anytime soon.  I use the 60/12 for most shots with the pin close (most of our bunkers around the green have fairly high lips), but I use the 54/14 for longer shots.  Monte's Use the Bounce 2.0 video of bunker play really helped my sand game.  I am no longer petrified of being in the sand, as I know I can get out and close many times.  I now actually prefer a sand shot over some of the weird lies we can get in the rough around the bunkers.

FYI, give consideration to the shaft in the wedge.  I think it has a lot to do with performance of the club.  I did not like the feel of the PM Grind with the standard "wedge" flex shaft, but that could just be me.  I'm playing the KBS Tour 90 in regular flex, and the lie angle of the clubs are a little flatter than standard.

Oh BTW, I don't know what the bounce(s) are on the Srixons, but v-sole wedges typically have a high bounce near the leading edge, maybe 18 to 35 degrees, and a very low bounce on the rear, usually 4 to 6 degrees.  I played the SCOR wedges with the v-sole for several years.  The v-sole did take some getting used to.

[fixyurdivot]

1 hour ago, Kenny B said:

For years I played at a course that had no bunkers, so when I did play a course with bunkers, I was absolutely horrible.  On a whim I tried the Callaway 2019 PM Grind 54º and 60º wedges, and I don't see me changing anytime soon.  I use the 60/12 for most shots with the pin close (most of our bunkers around the green have fairly high lips), but I use the 54/14 for longer shots.  Monte's Use the Bounce 2.0 video of bunker play really helped my sand game.  I am no longer petrified of being in the sand, as I know I can get out and close many times.  I now actually prefer a sand shot over some of the weird lies we can get in the rough around the bunkers.

FYI, give consideration to the shaft in the wedge.  I think it has a lot to do with performance of the club.  I did not like the feel of the PM Grind with the standard "wedge" flex shaft, but that could just be me.  I'm playing the KBS Tour 90 in regular flex, and the lie angle of the clubs are a little flatter than standard.

Oh BTW, I don't know what the bounce(s) are on the Srixons, but v-sole wedges typically have a high bounce near the leading edge, maybe 18 to 35 degrees, and a very low bounce on the rear, usually 4 to 6 degrees.  I played the SCOR wedges with the v-sole for several years.  The v-sole did take some getting used to.

I've only tried the ZX5 AW out of traps twice and it seemed OK but definitely not like the G410 UW.  The soles are significantly different. As I mentioned, my results with the new PW and AW have been really good and the v-sole and I seem to be getting along just fine up through the 4i. I think I'll spend some time with the Glide 56/12 in the practice traps and see what that yields.  I probably should have been pulling that all along. It has the AWT "wedge" shaft which works just great for me in ruff and fairway.

You know, with my build bench in the works, I'll be looking for new projects.  Word is that is a real danger to having such equipment .

[Tin Cup2]

11 hours ago, Chip Strokes said:

for as bad as i am at golf, i’m a damn good bunker player. 

vokey sm8 f grind in 56/14

wide base, weight all on the left leg, open the face, and slap the living hell out of the sand an inch or two behind the ball 

That club is like cheating when getting out of the sand.

[MattF]

I'm useless out of the sand with a normal wedge so I bought a Cleveland Smart Sole S. Almost automatic out of the bunker now.

[DiscipleofPenick]

11 hours ago, Shankster said:

Seve once claimed that he was the best bunker player.

 

I, however… have not claimed that.  I actually prefer a low bounce SW… but, the bunkers here… none of them are the same consistency… weird.

so, I just do my best to avoid them.  As much as possible.

That's just the majority of public courses I think. 

Hot take: 90% of Public courses should get rid of bunkers. Here's my thoughts

1.  Courses don't have the money to maintain them and purchase proper sand to fill them

2. People are too lazy to bother raking them, or weren't educated on how to enter/exit bunkers and rake them properly.

3. The better players generally know how to avoid bunkers and if they get in one, they know how to get out. Bunkers are going to collect far more shots from poor golfers. Poor golfers who don't know how to hit a sand shot or take 3 to get out then can't be bothered to rake it. This just slows down play.

 

[DiscipleofPenick]

9 hours ago, Kenny B said:

For years I played at a course that had no bunkers, so when I did play a course with bunkers, I was absolutely horrible.  On a whim I tried the Callaway 2019 PM Grind 54º and 60º wedges, and I don't see me changing anytime soon.  I use the 60/12 for most shots with the pin close (most of our bunkers around the green have fairly high lips), but I use the 54/14 for longer shots.  Monte's Use the Bounce 2.0 video of bunker play really helped my sand game.  I am no longer petrified of being in the sand, as I know I can get out and close many times.  I now actually prefer a sand shot over some of the weird lies we can get in the rough around the bunkers.

FYI, give consideration to the shaft in the wedge.  I think it has a lot to do with performance of the club.  I did not like the feel of the PM Grind with the standard "wedge" flex shaft, but that could just be me.  I'm playing the KBS Tour 90 in regular flex, and the lie angle of the clubs are a little flatter than standard.

Oh BTW, I don't know what the bounce(s) are on the Srixons, but v-sole wedges typically have a high bounce near the leading edge, maybe 18 to 35 degrees, and a very low bounce on the rear, usually 4 to 6 degrees.  I played the SCOR wedges with the v-sole for several years.  The v-sole did take some getting used to.

My home course didn't have bunkers either. But I played a tournament last week and found 2. That's the confidence in finding a club a you trust out of the sand will do.

[Nolan220]

Ping glide 2.0 58 degree 12 bounce .. I will ope the face a little 

[fixyurdivot]

14 hours ago, DiscipleofPenick said:

That's just the majority of public courses I think. 

Hot take: 90% of Public courses should get rid of bunkers. Here's my thoughts

1.  Courses don't have the money to maintain them and purchase proper sand to fill them

2. People are too lazy to bother raking them, or weren't educated on how to enter/exit bunkers and rake them properly.

3. The better players generally know how to avoid bunkers and if they get in one, they know how to get out. Bunkers are going to collect far more shots from poor golfers. Poor golfers who don't know how to hit a sand shot or take 3 to get out then can't be bothered to rake it. This just slows down play.

 

Interesting thoughts.  Not arguing your points but I would personally miss them... Circling Raven just wouldn't play the same for me .  Seriously, I like the dimension they add to the game.

 

14 hours ago, MattF said:

I'm useless out of the sand with a normal wedge so I bought a Cleveland Smart Sole S. Almost automatic out of the bunker now.

That good eh... may have to look into a good used one to evaluate.

[Kenny B]

15 hours ago, DiscipleofPenick said:

That's just the majority of public courses I think. 

Hot take: 90% of Public courses should get rid of bunkers. Here's my thoughts

1.  Courses don't have the money to maintain them and purchase proper sand to fill them

2. People are too lazy to bother raking them, or weren't educated on how to enter/exit bunkers and rake them properly.

3. The better players generally know how to avoid bunkers and if they get in one, they know how to get out. Bunkers are going to collect far more shots from poor golfers. Poor golfers who don't know how to hit a sand shot or take 3 to get out then can't be bothered to rake it. This just slows down play.

 

I have to agree with @fixyurdivot that bunkers are an essential part of a golf course.  Without bunkers there are no consequences for less than a good shot.  Players work on the range trying to improve their game trying to hit straighter shots and work on the green trying to putt better.  However, I NEVER see anyone use our practice bunker learning how to get out of bunkers.  It's not that hard of a shot if you take lessons and practice even a little.  Playing golf on a course with bunkers, never practicing that shot, and being frustrated that they can't get out of the sand is nuts!!  It's part of the game people are trying to learn.

If poor players are in sand and can't get out, there is always the option to take a drop outside the bunker with two penalty shots.  Unfortunately, most players don't know the rules and, as you say, use the time on course for bunker practice!!  

Yes, people are lazy about raking bunkers.  The same people also don't replace divots, fill divots with sand, or repair ball marks on greens.  It's the nature of public courses with people that had no golf etiquette instruction.  We deal with it.  I have found that when the course properly maintains sand throughout the year, has plenty of rakes, and most people make an effort to rake them, even the poorer players will make some effort whereas they won't in poorly maintained bunkers.  COVID-19 bunkers with NO rakes made people lazy!!

Yes, bunkers have a maintenance cost.  Better run courses have that cost included in their annual budget, and some courses have replaced bunkers with grass bunkers.  We have a LOT of sand area on our muni; not a lot of bunkers, but some are huge... like from 170y to the green along the right hand side of the fairway.  Sand is provided by the City.  I suspect that many lower tier public courses probably just don't care that much about maintaining them.

[MattF]

8 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

That good eh... may have to look into a good used one to evaluate.

They are if you don't decelerate...like me. 

[DiscipleofPenick]

@Kenny B @fixyurdivot

Good points guys. Let me explain further. First, I think courses need to decide if the bunkers are worth keeping. There are about a dozen to 20 courses around me that use the high quality sand and have the equipment to really take care of them. And like one of you said, the majority of them are munis.

I think bunkers have a place on the course but most fairway and greenside bunkers can be removed. The bunkers that should be kept, or even added, should be to prevent balls from going into hazards or into waste areas. Mostly I'm thinking that bunkers should be on down slopes near lakes and the woods to prevent balls from running through. My course removed all their bunkers a few years ago and I am already thinking of half a dozen or so I would like to see brought back. Lost balls will slow down play even more than extra bunker shots.

There is another course in my area called Grey Hawk, it's a von Hagge design. On the 10th hole alone you can see the remains of at least 12 bunkers they removed in the last few years. There's still 5 bunkers guarding the green on this. What is the purpose of 17 bunkers on a 550 yard par 5 other than it looks pretty or is a neat architecture quirk? On another hole I counted 13 removed. I understand this is extreme, but I wanted to point this out by using a high end course by a world famous architect. And they've decided to remove all that sand.

 

[THEZIPR23]

59* 3* bounce. Have always used about the lowest bounce possible for bunkers. It works well for me unless they are really fluffy, then I have to change my technique a little bit. Most of the bunkers around here have about and inch of sand and are very firm underneath. 

[Kenny B]

29 minutes ago, DiscipleofPenick said:

@Kenny B @fixyurdivot

Good points guys. Let me explain further. First, I think courses need to decide if the bunkers are worth keeping. There are about a dozen to 20 courses around me that use the high quality sand and have the equipment to really take care of them. And like one of you said, the majority of them are munis.

I think bunkers have a place on the course but most fairway and greenside bunkers can be removed. The bunkers that should be kept, or even added, should be to prevent balls from going into hazards or into waste areas. Mostly I'm thinking that bunkers should be on down slopes near lakes and the woods to prevent balls from running through. My course removed all their bunkers a few years ago and I am already thinking of half a dozen or so I would like to see brought back. Lost balls will slow down play even more than extra bunker shots.

There is another course in my area called Grey Hawk, it's a von Hagge design. On the 10th hole alone you can see the remains of at least 12 bunkers they removed in the last few years. There's still 5 bunkers guarding the green on this. What is the purpose of 17 bunkers on a 550 yard par 5 other than it looks pretty or is a neat architecture quirk? On another hole I counted 13 removed. I understand this is extreme, but I wanted to point this out by using a high end course by a world famous architect. And they've decided to remove all that sand.

 

 

I do agree that some courses have way too many bunkers.  A few years ago my wife and I played a couple of weeks in Phoenix and our favorite course (now gone, turned into houses).  One par 4 hole had an uphill green protected by 4 bunkers in the front; no way to run a ball up onto the green, which required my wife to lay up after her drive because she couldn't get the ball up the hill and past the bunkers on her second shot.  It was difficult for me as well; I could get to the green, but the green was wide and shallow and I couldn't hold the green with a shot.  I ended up in a bunker many times during our trip.  Near the end of our stay, they were removing two of the bunkers and replacing with sod.  That helped a lot, but sadly the course closed a couple of years ago.

The location, positioning, and depth of bunkers has a lot to do with a course's rating and slope assigned by the state's golf association.  A few years ago I followed a rating team from our WSGA when they rated two courses in our area.  So, it depends on how difficult a course wants to be.  One of the raters told me that a course in western Washington spent a lot of money putting in a bunker and wanted the WSGA to review their rating.  When the WSGA rating rep arrived, he said that the rating and slope wouldn't change because the bunker was put in a location that the USGA rating guidance doesn't consider for a scratch or bogey golfer.  Wasted money to achieve a higher course rating, and probably detrimental to less skilled players.  Never heard if they took it out.

[DiscipleofPenick]

1 hour ago, Kenny B said:

I do agree that some courses have way too many bunkers.  A few years ago my wife and I played a couple of weeks in Phoenix and our favorite course (now gone, turned into houses).  One par 4 hole had an uphill green protected by 4 bunkers in the front; no way to run a ball up onto the green, which required my wife to lay up after her drive because she couldn't get the ball up the hill and past the bunkers on her second shot.  It was difficult for me as well; I could get to the green, but the green was wide and shallow and I couldn't hold the green with a shot.  I ended up in a bunker many times during our trip.  Near the end of our stay, they were removing two of the bunkers and replacing with sod.  That helped a lot, but sadly the course closed a couple of years ago.

The location, positioning, and depth of bunkers has a lot to do with a course's rating and slope assigned by the state's golf association.  A few years ago I followed a rating team from our WSGA when they rated two courses in our area.  So, it depends on how difficult a course wants to be.  One of the raters told me that a course in western Washington spent a lot of money putting in a bunker and wanted the WSGA to review their rating.  When the WSGA rating rep arrived, he said that the rating and slope wouldn't change because the bunker was put in a location that the USGA rating guidance doesn't consider for a scratch or bogey golfer.  Wasted money to achieve a higher course rating, and probably detrimental to less skilled players.  Never heard if they took it out.

That's a good point, with the rating. Putting a bunker 200 yards off a tee is only going to catch the balls of bad golfers. Frame the 240-280 landing zone.

And provide openings to roll a ball onto the green!

[Kenny B]

2 hours ago, DiscipleofPenick said:

That's a good point, with the rating. Putting a bunker 200 yards off a tee is only going to catch the balls of bad golfers. Frame the 240-280 landing zone.

And provide openings to roll a ball onto the green!

Well, we sorta migrated away from the topic of this thread.  Sorry.
One comment and the discussion can get back to sand wedges.

A bunker placed at 200 yards is going to catch balls of more than bad golfers.  I'm a 9 index and and that bunker is in my range from the tees I play.  In addition, there are a lot of bad golfers that hit the ball 250 yards.

My experience with the Course Rating Committee was 5 years ago this month.  I posted about my experiences here:
https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/17020-my-experience-with-the-wsga-course-rating-committee/#comments

In summary from my post:    The criteria for rating courses assumes a scratch male golfer hits a drive 250 yards and a second shot 220 yards, whereas the bogey golfer hits a drive 200 yards with a 170 yard second shot.  For the female scratch golfer, the drive is 210 yards with a 190 yard second shot, and the drive for the bogey female is 150 yards with a 130 yard second shot.  These numbers are important because what we did on each hole is drive to the spot in the fairway where the scratch and bogey players would end up and measure fairway width, observe types of hazards and distance to them, and distance to OB if any.  If a bunker on the course was not within 20 yards of the landing area, it is not considered for that player. 

 

[Shankster]

3 hours ago, DiscipleofPenick said:

That's a good point, with the rating. Putting a bunker 200 yards off a tee is only going to catch the balls of bad golfers. Frame the 240-280 landing zone.

And provide openings to roll a ball onto the green!

Frame the 320+ Range.

[fixyurdivot]

6 hours ago, DiscipleofPenick said:

@Kenny B @fixyurdivot

Good points guys. Let me explain further. First, I think courses need to decide if the bunkers are worth keeping. There are about a dozen to 20 courses around me that use the high quality sand and have the equipment to really take care of them. And like one of you said, the majority of them are munis.

I think bunkers have a place on the course but most fairway and greenside bunkers can be removed. The bunkers that should be kept, or even added, should be to prevent balls from going into hazards or into waste areas. Mostly I'm thinking that bunkers should be on down slopes near lakes and the woods to prevent balls from running through. My course removed all their bunkers a few years ago and I am already thinking of half a dozen or so I would like to see brought back. Lost balls will slow down play even more than extra bunker shots.

There is another course in my area called Grey Hawk, it's a von Hagge design. On the 10th hole alone you can see the remains of at least 12 bunkers they removed in the last few years. There's still 5 bunkers guarding the green on this. What is the purpose of 17 bunkers on a 550 yard par 5 other than it looks pretty or is a neat architecture quirk? On another hole I counted 13 removed. I understand this is extreme, but I wanted to point this out by using a high end course by a world famous architect. And they've decided to remove all that sand.

 

 

I think Pete Dye just raised his eyebrows at this post (removing bunkers) .  He put 103 of them in at TPC Louisiana.  I like the idea of positioning them along hazards to reduce the chance of balls running through. I have played courses that converted sand bunkers to waste bunkers and, if they are not mowed correctly, way more penalizing than sand. Yes 103 might be a few too many - but I still want them as part of the experience.  

The odd thing is that I like the challenge of making shots from them and, for the most part, do just fine extricating myself in one attempt.  I just want to be more proficient at distance which is pretty much secondary in the order of importance.  As @Kenny B points out, we amateurs spend way too little time practicing bunker play. 

Looking at the Cleveland Smart Sole, it has a much larger footprint than my Glide 2.0.  Lots of rave reviews on the interwebz about its sand play help. It seems this was designed primarily for sand use as opposed to sand and turf?  @MattFhow does this work off tight lies?

 

 

 

[Kenny B]

3 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

I think Pete Dye just raised his eyebrows at this post (removing bunkers) .  He put 103 of them in at TPC Louisiana.  I like the idea of positioning them along hazards to reduce the chance of balls running through. I have played courses that converted sand bunkers to waste bunkers and, if they are not mowed correctly, way more penalizing than sand. Yes 103 might be a few too many - but I still want them as part of the experience.  

The odd thing is that I like the challenge of making shots from them and, for the most part, do just fine extricating myself in one attempt.  I just want to be more proficient at distance which is pretty much secondary in the order of importance.  As @Kenny B points out, we amateurs spend way too little time practicing bunker play. 

Looking at the Cleveland Smart Sole, it has a much larger footprint than my Glide 2.0.  Lots of rave reviews on the interwebz about its sand play help. It seems this was designed primarily for sand use as opposed to sand and turf?  @MattFhow does this work off tight lies?

 

 

 

Before I bought my PM Grind Callaways, I purchased a Callaway Sure-Out 58º wedge with a gift card from Dick's.  Very similar in performance to the Cleveland Smart Sole S and all the other infomercial wedges, as well as the old Hogan Sure-Out and Wilson Sandy Andy from many years ago.  I played it for 2 years and did much better out of sand than with my SCOR wedges I had at the time.  Basically, you don't open the club face; just play the shot square.  It was also fine from thick rough, but I had trouble from tight lies.  I don't remember how much bounce it had, but it's a lot.  It was great in soft sand, but not for hard packed bunkers or with little/no sand.  The bounce might be similar to my PM grinds, but the C-grind sole on the PM Grinds makes hitting off tight lies and thin sand much, much easier.  

So, I was carrying an extra wedge primarily for bunker play.  It wasn't what I wanted in my game, so I invested in better bunker play technique with Monte's help, and the PM Grind wedges made it so much easier.  If people need a wide sole, high bounce wedge to get out of the sand, I'm all for it.  Whatever works!  Vanity-wise, I just didn't like it for me.

[MattF]

12 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

@MattFhow does this work off tight lies?

Well...you actually have to give it some forward lean to take some loft off it for chipping otherwise you're going to hit a reasonable flop. If you want to hit a flop with it, that'll work too.

[RickyBobby_PR]

Currently have 54 and 60 vokey sm8 d grind also have the tw wedges in 56-12 and 60-11

ive used different grinds and bounce in previous vokeys based on whatever the fit tool spot out.

Typically use less bounce in hard/firm bunkers and more bounce in softer bunkers. Haven’t had to mess around in bunkers with the sm8s