Getting rid of pulls/pull-draws off the tee (my old baseball swing comes back to haunt me on the golf course)

[funkyjudge 238]

I played two years of professional baseball, plus more than 14 years of very competitive “semi-pro” baseball prior to taking up golf at age 36+, and have frequently been told that I still have a “baseball swing”.  This has some distinct advantages for me on the golf course (much greater than average distance for a 72 year old is at the top of that list); however, it has one big disadvantage — pulls and pull-draws that occasionally turn into pull-hooks.  This happens primarily with my longer clubs (driver, fairway woods and hybrids) when hit off the tee), but it will occasionally happen with my longer/mid irons.  I can go a week or two (three to five rounds per week on good weeks) without having a bad case of the “pulls”, and then it returns with a vengeance.

Yesterday evening in my nine-hole recreational league, I hit every tee shot left to severely left. On the better tee shots, I ended-up just left of the fairway in the rough, but on several tee shots with driver, 3-wood and 17* hybrid, I was severely left, and I hit one big sweeping pull-hook OB on a par-5 hole.  I also got lucky on a long par-4 where my tee shot hit a tree that was OB and deflected back into the left rough about 195 yards short of the green with another tree blocking my path to the hole (I managed to hit a good draw around that tree with my #4 hybrid and left myself in the rough less than 10 yards short where I managed to get up-and-down for a par). 

Prior to last night’s 9-holes, I had managed to play 5 or 6 consecutive rounds where the dreaded pulls and pull-hooks had not shown-up more than a small handful of times (generally no more than once or at most twice per 18-hole round).  Why I was pulling everything left off the tee last night is a mystery to me, but I have been told that I roll my right wrist over the left as I get into the “hitting zone”, which is exactly what I did as a baseball player (I was a dead-pull hitter for about 90% of my baseball career, and I had a good power stroke, particularly for a guy who is 5’-10” to 5’11” tall and generally weighed no more than 190-195 lbs in my baseball days …. I’m at 170-173 lbs these days, and in very good shape, especially for my age).

My question for this group: How do I permanently overcome these pulls and pull-hooks?  I seemingly manage to overcome them for a week or two (even a month at times), but they always return and I don’t recognize what I am doing that causes the return.  I work VERY hard on keeping a bowed left wrist and every time I have had my golf swing videotaped it shows a late or semi-late release through the ball.  However, my predominant clubhead path is a couple of degrees out-to-in (generally between two and four degrees).  I have also worked on coming more in-to-out, but when I do this, my draws often turn into nasty hooks, which is why I actually prefer the slight out-to-in swing path which gives me a nice gentle fade when the pulls and pull-hooks don’t sabotage my golf game.

[RickyBobby_PR 9,550]

You need to fix your swing path and path to face relationship.  Without seeing a swing or launch monitor numbers showing face and path it’s hard to say if it’s from an ott type move or just a closed face ir a combo of each.

 

[scooterhd2 858]

Baseball players (although less and less the modern player) know how to swing a bat to produce a desired shot. Imagine you are at BP and I ask you to hit a grounder, hit a pop up, pull one to left field, push one to right field. That all registered, but unfortunately the baseball player then views the golf club as the bat.

 

The club is NOT the bat. The clubface is the bat. 

Pickup a golf club and hold the clubface. With this bat, how do you hit it high. Turn the palm up and add loft. How do hit it low? Turn the palm down and hood it. Make it go right, pull your fingers back. Pull it left, push your fingers forward. Just like batting practice. 

 

When you are gripping the club and taking a swing, you cannot simply generate velocity and seek contact. You have to be aware of the clubface. Be mindful of how the bat is coming into the ball. These angles are going to determine where the ball goes. 

[funkyjudge 238]

6 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

You need to fix your swing path and path to face relationship.  Without seeing a swing or launch monitor numbers showing face and path it’s hard to say if it’s from an ott type move or just a closed face ir a combo of each.

 

It is mostly a closed clubface. Even when I come into the ball from the inside (inside-out club path), I often see numbers like 3* closed clubface angle at impact on the launch monitors.  Obviously, when this happens, I hook the ball.  My misses yesterday were more straight pulls rather than draws or hooks, although a couple shots started down the middle to slightly left-of-center, then drew or hooked further left.  I suspect that most of these shot shapes came from a closed clubface with somewhat of an OTT move.

[RickyBobby_PR 9,550]

52 minutes ago, funkyjudge said:

It is mostly a closed clubface. Even when I come into the ball from the inside (inside-out club path), I often see numbers like 3* closed clubface angle at impact on the launch monitors.  Obviously, when this happens, I hook the ball.  My misses yesterday were more straight pulls rather than draws or hooks, although a couple shots started down the middle to slightly left-of-center, then drew or hooked further left.  I suspect that most of these shot shapes came from a closed clubface with somewhat of an OTT move.

You the closed face needs to be open more and if you are combining it with the ott you are going to the pull hooks and on the really bad swings the big pull. 
 

look at your grip and see if it’s too strong of look at how you go about grippin the club and make sure that it doesn’t start square and then as you add your bottom hand doesn’t close if.
 

You could learn to play the shot by aiming down the right side of the fairway and play the shot shape.

[alfriday101 1,145]

First, I think scooterhd2's post above is brilliant.  I was going to comment about using baseball imagery to help with your golf, but my post could never be as helpful as the one above.

 

Second, you need to work on your awareness.  As you state in your post, you go weeks or months with no problem, and then the issue shows up--   "but they always return and I don’t recognize what I am doing that causes the return."  You need to dig down and find out what you are doing differently, and that starts with having awareness of what you are doing right most of the time.  Most of us don't really change our swings that much day to day or week to week.  Chances are you are setting up differently, but your perception is just enough off you are not aware of it.  Check the basics: grip, alignment, posture, ball position.   

[funkyjudge 238]

16 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

You the closed face needs to be open more and if you are combining it with the ott you are going to the pull hooks and on the really bad swings the big pull. 
 

look at your grip and see if it’s too strong of look at how you go about grippin the club and make sure that it doesn’t start square and then as you add your bottom hand doesn’t close if.
 

You could learn to play the shot by aiming down the right side of the fairway and play the shot shape.

I have done exactly that in the past when this shot path problem crops-up.  Then, all of a sudden, the ball straightens out and I’m in the right rough (or worse).  This week was the first time in several years that such a problem has persisted for an entire round of golf; it’s usually just for a few holes and then I manage to straighten it out.

This year, I also have the highest handicap index that I’ve had since about two years after I started playing golf at age 36.  I was hospitalized for more than a month early in 2021 (it actually began on December 26 and I was in the hospital through all of January, due to severe infections that I got in my bones, spine, and bloodstream following a surgery in late 2020).  Then, while I was still rehabbing from those infections, I got COVID-19 in late March.  Prior to this, I had played to a handicap of between 8 and 11 for several years.  I have suffered from occasional bouts of the “pulls” or pull-hooks over the past 20 years, but not as severely as what showed-up on Monday.  Since I returned to playing golf in mid-May, I have had a few rounds where a couple of these pulled tee shots occurred, but I was able to correct the issue within a few holes. In one round, I also had a couple of pulled iron shots, but I managed to overcome this and straighten-out my shot direction within two holes of it cropping-up.

By the way, I do tend to have a fairly strong grip.

Edited August 11, 2021 by funkyjudge

[funkyjudge 238]

19 hours ago, scooterhd2 said:

Baseball players (although less and less the modern player) know how to swing a bat to produce a desired shot. Imagine you are at BP and I ask you to hit a grounder, hit a pop up, pull one to left field, push one to right field. That all registered, but unfortunately the baseball player then views the golf club as the bat.

 

The club is NOT the bat. The clubface is the bat. 

Pickup a golf club and hold the clubface. With this bat, how do you hit it high. Turn the palm up and add loft. How do hit it low? Turn the palm down and hood it. Make it go right, pull your fingers back. Pull it left, push your fingers forward. Just like batting practice. 

 

When you are gripping the club and taking a swing, you cannot simply generate velocity and seek contact. You have to be aware of the clubface. Be mindful of how the bat is coming into the ball. These angles are going to determine where the ball goes. 

In all of my years of playing baseball, the most difficult thing for me to do, with a few exceptions, was to hit the ball the opposite way (right of second base as a right-handed batter).  I was actually a switch hitter in my early years of playing baseball, and it was easier for me to hit the ball to left field as a lefty hitter than to hit it to right field as a right-hander.  I could launch it high and far to left or left-center field, but you could probably count on two hands the number of doubles that I hit as a right-handed batter in the gap to right-center, and I honestly don’t remember any base hits that I had down the right field line.

[Beakbryce 60]

Without seeing a video, tough to say. 

Generally you could try:

Weaken your grip. This is like the easiest thing to do. Hold the club head up so it is perpendicular to the ground. Shake the grip with the left hand, put the right hand over the left. "V" should point just inside the right shoulder if done correctly. OK, it will feel weird, but if you let the big muscles swing and don't think about the hands, it will work.

If you have a wide stance, narrow your stance. This places your head over the ball and makes it harder to have a flat swing causing a hook and a ball to far forward in your stance causing a pull. Try hitting 150 yard drivers from a very narrow stance to help with path and timing. Then gradually widen and hit harder until a pull or pull hook returns. Most straight pulls are ball to far forward or trying to hit to hard.

If both feet point perpendicular to the ball line, it could be your hands are beating your hips to the ball. Try angling your left toe out so the left hip can turn through the ball. A narrow stance will help this as well.

Bend more at the hips so the swing is more up and down. This keeps the club straighter in the hitting area for a longer period of time. When bending over, don't reach for the ball. Keep the arms hanging naturally. May help your OTT.

Get a fitting, it may be that the shafts aren't "you" anymore, caused by your recent struggles. 

This may be counter productive, but maybe try not being the longest 72 year old out there. It is well known that trying to hit "to hard" often produces a pull. May be time to swing within yourself. Make the score, take the ribbing for less length. Just saying, they will be buying the beer, right?

[MattNJGolfer 0]

Had same issue, my problem was not enough hip rotation in backswing and a VERY high right shoulder coming through at impact. Now I stand slightly further from the ball, for more bend at the waist, and my backswing trigger is left shoulder and hip starting synchronized. Coming into impact I feel like I'm hitting a low tennis backhand and don't move my head until I feel my right shoulder move under my chin. Corrected my path issues as well as timing issues, and gave me a straight ball/ 2 yard draw off the tee.  Hope you can take something from this.  Good luck

[Keith J Garvin 2]

M. Mikasa spends a lot of time comparing golf and baseball swings and uses the analogy of the club-face being the bat. Check out his videos on YouTube for a start. 

I'd hop on your friendly neighborhood launch monitor <that shows face and path> and recreate the shots. 

Be sure to use some alignment aids too...

 

A straight pull means <assuming a center face hit> your path and face are aligned. <say 4° out-to-in path and 4° closed path. 

Where does your "stock" fade start? If it starts truly left of target and comes to center <let's say path is 4° out-to-in and face is 2° closed>  then your pull is coming, most likely, from closing the face to much <4 and 4>. 

 

If your fade is one that starts center/a tad left and drops to the right <say face is 2° open but path is zero > your path is probably causing issue. 

Sans a launch monitor go to the range and see if you can do Johnny Millers 9 shot shape warm up. <google it>. 

Try to hit a draw/ fade/ then pull/push then snap left/banana right. 

What did you change to make those shots happen? What feels like your miss on course? 

 

There's your correction. 

 

Edited August 12, 2021 by Keith J Garvin
Typo

[funkyjudge 238]

15 hours ago, MattNJGolfer said:

Had same issue, my problem was not enough hip rotation in backswing and a VERY high right shoulder coming through at impact. Now I stand slightly further from the ball, for more bend at the waist, and my backswing trigger is left shoulder and hip starting synchronized. Coming into impact I feel like I'm hitting a low tennis backhand and don't move my head until I feel my right shoulder move under my chin. Corrected my path issues as well as timing issues, and gave me a straight ball/ 2 yard draw off the tee.  Hope you can take something from this.  Good luck

Thank you …. That is actually quite helpful!  I had been concentrating a lot on keeping my right shoulder lower than my left from address all the way through impact and waiting for that right shoulder to almost force my chin and head to turn in my through swing. However, I think that I have been slacking-off or forgetting those swing thoughts and setup moves lately.  I will focus on those things on the range and during the two rounds that I am playing in a Ryder Cup style two-day match this weekend.

[RickyBobby_PR 9,550]

2 minutes ago, funkyjudge said:

Thank you …. That is actually quite helpful!  I had been concentrating a lot on keeping my right shoulder lower than my left from address all the way through impact and waiting for that right shoulder to almost force my chin and head to turn in my through swing. However, I think that I have been slacking-off or forgetting those swing thoughts and setup moves lately.  I will focus on those things on the range and during the two rounds that I am playing in a Ryder Cup style two-day match this weekend.

At address the trail shoulder should be below the lead purely based on the trail hand being lower on the club. Depending on the school of thought one follows it may be even lower from using the reverse k setup.

The trail shoulder is going to get higher than the lead shoulder as the swing starts and then for thru the early part of the transition point before they become about level along with the hips leveling out between lead arm parallel and shaft parallel as one moves into impact(often referred to as p5 and p6)

The lead shoulder should be working down and towards the ball in the takeaway.

[funkyjudge 238]

For those of you who have suggested that I get on a launch monitor, I am a professional clubfitter and have two launch monitors of my own, plus access to more than $400K worth of launch monitors at the fitting center near my home where I do fittings(I also do clubfitting work with the professional staff at the golf course where I play much of my competitive golf).  I have used these launch monitors regularly, and continue to use them frequently, including within the last two weeks.  Those launch monitor sessions, plus working with the PGA pro who owns the fitting center (one of the better teaching pros in this area) have helped me quite a bit.  My launch monitor sessions show a relatively consistent outside-in club path of between 2* to 4.5* (down from greater than 4* a few years ago); however, in some of my sessions with this pro I have managed to get to a slight inside-out path, mostly by closing my stance and creating somewhat of a Jim Furyk/Matthew Wolf-style “loop” in my swing.  That “loop” felt far too unnatural to me, and it was difficult for me to get it synced properly after spending 36-37 years with a more “conventional” swing, and thus it caused more problems than it cured.  The pro suggests that my 2* to 4* outside-in clubhead path is not necessarily a problem in and of itself, saying that many top golfers and even several of the touring pros have an outside-in swing.  The key is to get the clubface angle square to slightly open at impact to prevent the pulls that come from the outside-in club path with a closed face.  I will continue to work on that for sure!

As for being fitted to the proper golf shafts, I measured my clubhead speed in late April to mid-May when I was still rehabbing from my recent medical issues, and my driver speed was 93-95 MPH at that time; however, it has increased to 98-100 MPH more recently with the driver, and 95-97 MPH with a 3 or 4 wood (I have had a consistent 82-84 MPH clubhead speed with my mid-irons, that had dropped briefly to 77-80 MPH while I was rehabbing, but it’s back up in the low-mid 80s again).  Even while I was rehabbing, trying to hit most R-flex shafts turned into a total disaster for me, with a few exceptions.  I could (and still can) hit certain R and SR (stiff regular) shafts that are low torque with a stiff tip and midsection, but those shafts are few and far between.  I use the shafts that I do after much experimentation and testing, and these shafts have proven to be the best-performing shafts for me among the many shafts to which I have access as a fitter/dealer for several golf equipment and golf shaft companies (KBS, Fujikura, True Temper Group, Mitsubishi, etc. for shafts, plus Tour Edge and Sub 70 for clubs).  In my fitting matrix, I have scores of current shafts in every flex from ladies and soft A-flex to Tour-X flex, and believe me, I have hit clubs with nearly all of them installed.  If a shaft performed better for me than what is currently in ANY of my clubs, I would certainly be using it!

By the way, the equipment listed in my signature below is NOT what is currently in my bag, with the exception of the putter and ball.  I have edited this data in my profile over and over and saved it, but the old data still appears in my messages and posts.  If you are interested in what equipment I currently play, you can go to my profile and click on “about me” and see what I actually play.

Also, my handicap index is on the way back down, in spite of my recent case of the “pulls”; it has dropped 0.4 of a stroke in the last two weeks and the trend information shows it headed back to about an even 16, which is still disgusting to me since I was at a 13.4 index when I got sick in December, 2020, and have been as low as an 11 in recent years (up from a low point of 8.3 as recently as my mid-late 50s).

Edited August 12, 2021 by funkyjudge

[funkyjudge 238]

20 hours ago, Beakbryce said:

Without seeing a video, tough to say. 

Generally you could try:

Weaken your grip. This is like the easiest thing to do. Hold the club head up so it is perpendicular to the ground. Shake the grip with the left hand, put the right hand over the left. "V" should point just inside the right shoulder if done correctly. OK, it will feel weird, but if you let the big muscles swing and don't think about the hands, it will work.

If you have a wide stance, narrow your stance. This places your head over the ball and makes it harder to have a flat swing causing a hook and a ball to far forward in your stance causing a pull. Try hitting 150 yard drivers from a very narrow stance to help with path and timing. Then gradually widen and hit harder until a pull or pull hook returns. Most straight pulls are ball to far forward or trying to hit to hard.

If both feet point perpendicular to the ball line, it could be your hands are beating your hips to the ball. Try angling your left toe out so the left hip can turn through the ball. A narrow stance will help this as well.

Bend more at the hips so the swing is more up and down. This keeps the club straighter in the hitting area for a longer period of time. When bending over, don't reach for the ball. Keep the arms hanging naturally. May help your OTT.

Get a fitting, it may be that the shafts aren't "you" anymore, caused by your recent struggles. 

This may be counter productive, but maybe try not being the longest 72 year old out there. It is well known that trying to hit "to hard" often produces a pull. May be time to swing within yourself. Make the score, take the ribbing for less length. Just saying, they will be buying the beer, right?

Very good advice — thanks!  When I just try to put a smooth swing on the ball and not try to “kill” the ball, I almost always get my best results. I did that in the 5 rounds that I played two weeks ago, and played some of my best golf in years. I also hit some shots that were absolutely unbelievable (long and straight) when I thought that I was just swinging easy.

Edited August 12, 2021 by funkyjudge

[PetePetros 2]

7 hours ago, funkyjudge said:

Very good advice — thanks!  When I just try to put a smooth swing on the ball and not try to “kill” the ball, I almost always get my best results. I did that in the 5 rounds that I played two weeks ago, and played some of my best golf in years. I also hit some shots that were absolutely unbelievable (long and straight) when I thought that I was just swinging easy.

I've had the exact same problems with the pulls. Check out Milo Lines on YouTube an x baseball player and now golf instructor talk about the similarities of both swings. It helped me out alot.

[PetePetros 2]

I've had the exact same problem with the pulls. Check out Milo Lines on YouTube an x baseball player now golf instructor talk about the similarities of both swings . It helped me out a lot. 

[liermann.mark 39]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkhwBX3anEA&t=305s

 

This video is exactly why I pull my shots.

[saz0418 21]

When I hit pulls or pull hooks with longer clubs, its is usually ball position... or at least ball position relative to your swing.  Your swing goes on a arc... to the right, then square, then to the left (right handed golfer).   If you get the ball too far forward in your stance, you hit it with the left-going part of your swing arc.  Even a couple of degrees with a driver is probably off the fairway.   So the easy fix in the midst of a round is to move the ball back in your stance about a ball width (more or less).    The same equivalent happens if you don't transfer your weight forward on your swing.   "Hanging back"  will push your swing path left-- and that is more likely as you try to stay behind and hit UP  on your driver.    

Finally, I will not that I can hit a pull or pull-hook off the planet out of nowhere during a round.  I finally diagnosed that to not getting the hands ahead of the ball (enough) during the set up (or dynamically during swing).  If you normally set up with your hands ahead of the ball... and then you set up with hands even with the ball (or less ahead), that can absolutely point your face left and introduce a dead pull or pull/hook.    You can prove that to yourself by just setting up, and then pulling the handle back away from target.  The face closes several degrees for each inch or so that you move the handle back.  If that is how you come into the ball, your face is left and the ball is going left.  

[funkyjudge 238]

I played 18 holes today in day one of a two-day tournament (Ryder Cup style event between teams from top-tier golf courses in NJ and PA). I only hit a semi-pull off the tee on one hole, and that was a long par-5 where I was trying to avoid a huge pond that runs up the right side of the hole for the first 320+ yards. I still managed to par this 543-yard hole for a net birdie.

I did hit a couple of shots with my 4-hybrid and mid/long irons that went left, and one with my 3-wood (an ill-advised attempt to get close to another par-5 in two when my partner's ball was already in the fairway inside of 135 yards). Other than that 3-wood shot, none of these were what I would call severe pulls or pull-hooks, and all but the 3-wood shot left me in no worse than light to medium rough about 15-20 yards left of my target.

I was generally pretty happy with this turnaround from my recent case of severe "pull-itis" .... Let's see if it continues tomorrow in day two of the tournament.  Now, if only my putting were better ... LOL!

 

Edited August 15, 2021 by funkyjudge