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Finding Fairways?


thefullmonte
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9 hours ago, thefullmonte said:

I hit this club with (3) different shafts and all were awful for me, even making hosel adjustments as well.  I was no BS getting 6000-7000 RPM 

it’s likely all in my head, but I play midsize grips…and it feels like anytime I try to hit a club with a regular grip…it’s just awful.

the session with the 425 was just infuriating.  Yes, they were bad.  But they looked nothing like anything I hit on the course 

 

Ping has a comparatively heavier head and maybe with those shafts the swingweight was in the D5 range... combined with your shoulder issue and swing may have been a bad combination?  If you try it again, take the head weight off for a wild comparison and see what difference there is.  This is only for testing purposes to give a data point toward the type of driver that works better or worse for you. 

And yes it you are used to a larger size grip swinging with a standard size will make it feel like you're holding a pencil. 

Modern Bag: :Sub70:  849 Pro 9*, Hazrdous Smoke S Flex;   :titelist-small:  915F 3w, Diamana S+ 70 S flex;  Snake Eyes 15*, & 23* Hybrids; :mizuno-small: JPX 900 Forged 5 - PW, PX LZ 6.0;  :cleveland-small: Tour Action 49*, 53*, 57*; PX LZ 6.5 ;  :ping-small: Heppler Fetch;  Ball - :Snell: MTB-X; Bag - :1590477705_SunMountain: H2NO 

Classic Bag:  Driver - :wilson_staff_small: Persimmon; 3w - :Hogan: Speed Slot; 5w - :wilson_staff_small: Tour Block; 3 - pw - :wilson_staff_small: Dynapower; sw - Ram Tom Watson;  putter - bullseye standard or flange.

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3 hours ago, Shapotomous said:

Ping has a comparatively heavier head and maybe with those shafts the swingweight was in the D5 range... combined with your shoulder issue and swing may have been a bad combination?  If you try it again, take the head weight off for a wild comparison and see what difference there is.  This is only for testing purposes to give a data point toward the type of driver that works better or worse for you. 

And yes it you are used to a larger size grip swinging with a standard size will make it feel like you're holding a pencil. 

So a quick Google Machine reference tells me that the 425 Max us just 2 grams heavier than the current head I have (208 vs 206)

I looked up the TSi2 for reference, it’s actually lighter at 196g

reflecting on the mini 425 fitting, I’m not sure I actually used a shaft over 65g.  Current is 72g.  I guess I’m not sure how much difference those 2 or 6 gram differences in head or shaft would be expected to make 

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21 hours ago, Kansas King said:

However, the shaft is likely going to be your biggest factor.

Nope the thought amongst many of the shaft is used to fine tune launch. Head and loft are going to be where the golfer finds the right launch characteristics. Then the shaft will be used to get it to optimal levels. And a shaft alone will not have significant change in launch or spin for a golfer. This has been stated by several shaft manufacturers across various social media platforms 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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27 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Nope the thought amongst many of the shaft is used to fine tune launch. Head and loft are going to be where the golfer finds the right launch characteristics. Then the shaft will be used to get it to optimal levels. And a shaft alone will not have significant change in launch or spin for a golfer. This has been stated by several shaft manufacturers across various social media platforms 

Unless it is a poor fitting head/shaft combo.   Experience last night during 3 wood most wanted testing.  Hitting a 3 wood with a particular shaft and results were low spin, low launch, pull hooks.  Swing speed was about 102 and pin ranged from 700 to about 2800 on good strikes. Couldn’t force a fade.  Shaft was a 60ish gram stiff shaft.  We tried all the settings and moved the weighting around all the same result.  Put in a 55 gram regular shaft and launch went up and spin was more reasonable and ball flight straightened out.  Granted it was a club I would never put in my bag but the shaft did make a huge difference in performance.  

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Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15* set  to 16.5* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 816H1 19* set at 18* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  21*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
               :titelist-small: 915H 24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :callaway-small: 54-10S   :cleveland-small: 588  58-12
Putter:  :seemore-small: mFGP2

Backups:  :bobby-grace-1: 6330, :taylormade-small:TM-180, :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, Bellum Winmore 787

 

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

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6 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Unless it is a poor fitting head/shaft combo.   Experience last night during 3 wood most wanted testing.  Hitting a 3 wood with a particular shaft and results were low spin, low launch, pull hooks.  Swing speed was about 102 and pin ranged from 700 to about 2800 on good strikes. Couldn’t force a fade.  Shaft was a 60ish gram stiff shaft.  We tried all the settings and moved the weighting around all the same result.  Put in a 55 gram regular shaft and launch went up and spin was more reasonable and ball flight straightened out.  Granted it was a club I would never put in my bag but the shaft did make a huge difference in performance.  

True on that part. But I’m betting the reason more so was how you swim the club with each shaft. The weight and profile may have an impact on how the golfer swings which in turn would change how the club is delivered therefore changing the launch, spin, etc.

 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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2 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

True on that part. But I’m betting the reason more so was how you swim the club with each shaft. The weight and profile may have an impact on how the golfer swings which in turn would change how the club is delivered therefore changing the launch, spin, etc.

 

Agree 100%, but it was the shaft that influenced the swing.  The point being that just the shaft can have a big influence on how the golfer swings and delivers the club.  Obviously I could find better fits than that head, but this is what people actually do.  They lock in on a head and then try a few shafts to make something work. My impression with that club would have simply been avoid the head,  it just isn’t right for me.    Now it becomes perception,  was it the head or the shaft that had the bigger influence. 

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Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15* set  to 16.5* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 816H1 19* set at 18* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  21*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
               :titelist-small: 915H 24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :callaway-small: 54-10S   :cleveland-small: 588  58-12
Putter:  :seemore-small: mFGP2

Backups:  :bobby-grace-1: 6330, :taylormade-small:TM-180, :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, Bellum Winmore 787

 

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

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3 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Agree 100%, but it was the shaft that influenced the swing.  The point being that just the shaft can have a big influence on how the golfer swings and delivers the club.  Obviously I could find better fits than that head, but this is what people actually do.  They lock in on a head and then try a few shafts to make something work. My impression with that club would have simply been avoid the head,  it just isn’t right for me.    Now it becomes perception,  was it the head or the shaft that had the bigger influence. 

Agree but if a shaft doesn’t influence a change in the swing and the golfer swings the same with with two different shafts theres not going to any significant change in numbers.

This is also why most fitters start with the head first then shaft.

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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3 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Nope the thought amongst many of the shaft is used to fine tune launch. Head and loft are going to be where the golfer finds the right launch characteristics. Then the shaft will be used to get it to optimal levels. And a shaft alone will not have significant change in launch or spin for a golfer. This has been stated by several shaft manufacturers across various social media platforms 

 

5 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Agree but if a shaft doesn’t influence a change in the swing and the golfer swings the same with with two different shafts theres not going to any significant change in numbers.

This is also why most fitters start with the head first then shaft.

Maybe I am misreading but you originally said the shaft is fine tuning and the head controls launch.  But now you said the shaft could make significant changes in numbers.   Not trying to argue,  I think it is simply better to say that if you are getting really bad launch numbers with a shaft/head combo it might be easier to find a different head.  Of all the 3 woods in the fairway testing it only happened with 1 club head where we struggled this much to find a stock shaft that worked well.  Most were as you indicated fine tuning 

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Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15* set  to 16.5* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 816H1 19* set at 18* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  21*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
               :titelist-small: 915H 24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :callaway-small: 54-10S   :cleveland-small: 588  58-12
Putter:  :seemore-small: mFGP2

Backups:  :bobby-grace-1: 6330, :taylormade-small:TM-180, :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, Bellum Winmore 787

 

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

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Personal testing experience and trackman numbers and on course use tell me that different weight characteristics of different shafts within the same flex category (even though there is no standard) can have a big influence in the swing weight of a club and the overall performance while used on the same clubhead.  The differences for me weren't in the 'fine tuning' range but in the 'broad performance' range. 

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Modern Bag: :Sub70:  849 Pro 9*, Hazrdous Smoke S Flex;   :titelist-small:  915F 3w, Diamana S+ 70 S flex;  Snake Eyes 15*, & 23* Hybrids; :mizuno-small: JPX 900 Forged 5 - PW, PX LZ 6.0;  :cleveland-small: Tour Action 49*, 53*, 57*; PX LZ 6.5 ;  :ping-small: Heppler Fetch;  Ball - :Snell: MTB-X; Bag - :1590477705_SunMountain: H2NO 

Classic Bag:  Driver - :wilson_staff_small: Persimmon; 3w - :Hogan: Speed Slot; 5w - :wilson_staff_small: Tour Block; 3 - pw - :wilson_staff_small: Dynapower; sw - Ram Tom Watson;  putter - bullseye standard or flange.

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4 hours ago, thefullmonte said:

So a quick Google Machine reference tells me that the 425 Max us just 2 grams heavier than the current head I have (208 vs 206)

I looked up the TSi2 for reference, it’s actually lighter at 196g

reflecting on the mini 425 fitting, I’m not sure I actually used a shaft over 65g.  Current is 72g.  I guess I’m not sure how much difference those 2 or 6 gram differences in head or shaft would be expected to make 

In my testing and experimenting, swapping between an Evenflow shaft and an Accra shaft of the same length changed the swingweight of the same G410+ head from D2 to D5.  Maybe for some that wouldn't be a big deal but for me it changed the performance of the club quite a bit.  I then experimented with different head weights to 'lighten' the swingweight and different positions to get a preferred ball flight and got a club that is very dependable for me.  If I hadn't got it to perform I was going back to my G10 / red Prolaunch and continuing the search.

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Modern Bag: :Sub70:  849 Pro 9*, Hazrdous Smoke S Flex;   :titelist-small:  915F 3w, Diamana S+ 70 S flex;  Snake Eyes 15*, & 23* Hybrids; :mizuno-small: JPX 900 Forged 5 - PW, PX LZ 6.0;  :cleveland-small: Tour Action 49*, 53*, 57*; PX LZ 6.5 ;  :ping-small: Heppler Fetch;  Ball - :Snell: MTB-X; Bag - :1590477705_SunMountain: H2NO 

Classic Bag:  Driver - :wilson_staff_small: Persimmon; 3w - :Hogan: Speed Slot; 5w - :wilson_staff_small: Tour Block; 3 - pw - :wilson_staff_small: Dynapower; sw - Ram Tom Watson;  putter - bullseye standard or flange.

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45 minutes ago, cnosil said:

 

Maybe I am misreading but you originally said the shaft is fine tuning and the head controls launch.  But now you said the shaft could make significant changes in numbers.   Not trying to argue,  I think it is simply better to say that if you are getting really bad launch numbers with a shaft/head combo it might be easier to find a different head.  Of all the 3 woods in the fairway testing it only happened with 1 club head where we struggled this much to find a stock shaft that worked well.  Most were as you indicated fine tuning 

Not saying the shaft will make any significant impact. The golfer alone is responsible for that. It a shaft whether weight, feel, stiffness or any combo of them causes the golfer to change their swing that will influence how the golfer delivers the club thus how the club makes contact with the ball.

 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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6 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Not saying the shaft will make any significant impact. The golfer alone is responsible for that. It a shaft whether weight, feel, stiffness or any combo of them causes the golfer to change their swing that will influence how the golfer delivers the club thus how the club makes contact with the ball.

 

i think sometimes we talk literally if the shaft makes a big difference or not (i.e. if you put two different shafts on the same head with a robot) vs. the shaft makes a big difference in context of the end results of when i swing a club with two different shafts, which takes into account that i as the golfer may deliver the club in some different way with a particular shaft. 

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Follow my golf journey to break into the 80s

Tester for the Titleist TSi Driver

Spring 2020 MGS Tester for the Fujikura Motore X Shaft

Updated 11/13/2021
Driver:titelist-small: TSi 2 - Autoflex
Fairway Woods:titelist-small: TSi2 3 wood, 5 wood - Aldila Ascent 60 S
Irons:titelist-small: T300 5 to SW - LAGP AXS Red 85 Stiff double soft stepped
Wedges:Miura: K-grind 2.0 58 wedge - Xcaliber RT Spin Wedge 100
Putter:  SIK DW Armlock - LAGP 180 armlock shaft

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Here’s Matt from TXG using the ventus velocore vs non velocore. Two very different shafts and the non velocore would be what pretty much everybody considers not a shaft that would be recommended for him.

The shafts didn’t cause him to alter his swing and produced nearly identical numbers.

Had he somehow had to slow down his swing or make a move to get the shaft to the ball in a different way then the numbers very likely would be quite different 

09DCA49E-E4AC-4F54-89DB-8806770558AD.png

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Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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7 minutes ago, dlow206 said:

i think sometimes we talk literally if the shaft makes a big difference or not (i.e. if you put two different shafts on the same head with a robot) vs. the shaft makes a big difference in context of the end results of when i swing a club with two different shafts, which takes into account that i as the golfer may deliver the club in some different way with a particular shaft. 

In simple terms a low/low shaft will not or launch significantly different from a high/high.

 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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7 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Here’s Matt from TXG using the ventus velocore vs non velocore. Two very different shafts and the non velocore would be what pretty much everybody considers not a shaft that would be recommended for him.

The shafts didn’t cause him to alter his swing and produced nearly identical numbers.

Had he somehow had to slow down his swing or make a move to get the shaft to the ball in a different way then the numbers very likely would be quite different 

09DCA49E-E4AC-4F54-89DB-8806770558AD.png

Although it shifted dispersion  and shape. As well, I know they filter out data. We don’t know what his bad shots on each looked like. 

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Driver: :callaway-small:   Epic Max LS with RDX Blue 70g S (Testing Ventus Velocore Black 6x 44.5")

2H: :callaway-small: Super Hybrid with Tensei Orange Pro Hyb 80 Stiff (Testing Ventus Velocore Blue 8s Hyb)

3H: :Sub70: 939X UST proforce V2 black F5 hybrid soft stepped

4-AW: th.jpg.d6e2abdaeb04f007fd259c979f389de6.jpg  0211  with KBS Tour Stiff 2.5* up 1/4" long Unofficial Review

Wedges     :cleveland-small: Zipcore Tour Rack 54/full and 58/mid (review here)  (Backup 54*,60*: :ping-small:  S Tour KBS Tour Stiff 3* up)

Putter: TAII #2  Review here: TAIII Impact #2 Putter 

Ball: :Snell:MTB-X and :OnCore: vero X1 (Winter ball :titelist-small: proV1 )

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Here’s Matt from TXG using the ventus velocore vs non velocore. Two very different shafts and the non velocore would be what pretty much everybody considers not a shaft that would be recommended for him.

The shafts didn’t cause him to alter his swing and produced nearly identical numbers.

Had he somehow had to slow down his swing or make a move to get the shaft to the ball in a different way then the numbers very likely would be quite different 

09DCA49E-E4AC-4F54-89DB-8806770558AD.png

Haven't watched that video for a long time, but I thought i remember him hitting some hooks with the non-Velocore (more than normal for him)

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Follow my golf journey to break into the 80s

Tester for the Titleist TSi Driver

Spring 2020 MGS Tester for the Fujikura Motore X Shaft

Updated 11/13/2021
Driver:titelist-small: TSi 2 - Autoflex
Fairway Woods:titelist-small: TSi2 3 wood, 5 wood - Aldila Ascent 60 S
Irons:titelist-small: T300 5 to SW - LAGP AXS Red 85 Stiff double soft stepped
Wedges:Miura: K-grind 2.0 58 wedge - Xcaliber RT Spin Wedge 100
Putter:  SIK DW Armlock - LAGP 180 armlock shaft

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For what it's worth. I too was interested in hitting more fairways and didn't care as much about distance. During my fitting I hit a ton of different combos and the one that worked for me was the Ping 425LST with the KBS TD60 shaft. My FIR has increased significantly.

ping.png.7c5862342023c35b77c4616604806e90.png Driver: 425LST w / KBS TD60 X-Stiff

callaway-golf-vector-logo.png.493ab23d387785f73cfea313e1af01a6.png 3-Wood: Callaway Rogue

596048109_ScreenShot2021-02-28at3_28_30PM.png.6dfa8b67ed327055667700b4ef19afd1.png Sub70 699Pro: 5&6 Irons w/ Aldila NV Graphite Shaft - Stiff - 1/2" short

596048109_ScreenShot2021-02-28at3_28_30PM.png.6dfa8b67ed327055667700b4ef19afd1.png Sub70 639CB: 7-PW w/ Aldila NV Graphite Shaft - Stiff - 1/2" short

596048109_ScreenShot2021-02-28at3_28_30PM.png.6dfa8b67ed327055667700b4ef19afd1.pngHybrid - 939X: with Proforce V2 Stiff

1884238425_Titleistlogo.png.90c97c2fbcb19171e8ef7dc60bee0fc4.pngSM7 50* & 56*

167032231_GELlogo.jpeg.060ddfab800aed4c79ddd5d4ccc47ee0.jpegPutter: OPAL

vicegolf_logo.png.26dae2f1802c046450d6ce62d44baf39.png VICE - Pro Plus

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On another site there was a long series of posts with multiple folks testing a single driver.  The shaft data was pretty eye opening.  Specifically the variety of shafts that were used to optimize the club for like 10-12 different folks.

in unrelated news…I spent about 90 minutes last week attempting to get fit for a TSi2 the other day and the results from the indoor track man were insanely frustrating.  I may simply be allergic to indoors.

Then this weekend I go out and have my best round of the summer for FH with my old stick.

maybe the good Lord is telling me to keep gaming it

 

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I’ve always averaged 4-5 FIRs per round. When I was a 20+ handicap, I hit 4-5 fairways a round; I’m now a 4 handicap, and still hit 4-5 fairways a round. What did change is I went from 4-5 GIRs a round, to 11-12 per round.
 

“Forgiveness” when used as a driver term  is a slippery slope. Not sure any driver is “forgiving” when you hit the ball  all over the face. For my swing, I find forgiveness in a driver to correlate to higher backspin,and shorter distance. In my search, I found the ping g410 LST to be the lowest spinning head I can still control. I then tried 13 different shafts, buying 5. None of the shafts changed my spin numbers, but 2 proved to have significantly smaller dispersion circles. 
 

What do I take from all this? Don’t do what I did; go see teaching pro who speaks in terms that you can translate into feels/moves. No driver can fix a swing or miss that’s inconsistent.

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0CDA9F85-FD71-4495-9BD9-CF9DB38DF4E5.png

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Quick update to the OP…after a little time on the range with a pro…I’ve got a TSi2 w/ a 75g Tensi White Board on the way.  We didn’t do the full spectrum of shaft testing, just the stock options, so there may be additional room for improvement with this still

 

on a semi related note…I have suddenly had the best stretch of FH with the old Nike.  This little beotch knows it’s being replaced and is suddenly behaving itself 

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