The future of municipal golf courses?

[Kenny B]

1 hour ago, HardcoreLooper said:

Lobbying to close down golf courses is very much en vogue for some these days.  Hobbs, NM has a better idea.

https://www.rockwindgolfcourse.com/

Henrico County, just north of Richmond, almost repurposed their Tillinghast-designed course into a sports complex, but a determined group of local golfers and neighborhood families banded together to keep that from happening.  It can be done.

Almost took a job in Hobbs... but couldn't make myself move there!!

[PMookie]

Monroe, LA, already closed a 9 hole course and range years ago for a “road project”. Funny thing is, the road project never came to fruition, so it’s just overgrown land now. It had the best range in the area, and the course was fun, it was where the HS teams used to practice and hold some tournaments. The city still has the old classic 9 hole “course” that’s a goat ranch, and it’s almost never mowed, and then our 18 hole course that has a great layout, just no money put into it, and taken care of by a superintendent that was fired from two local country clubs because he could only grow weeds. Add to this workers get paid more to work at McDonald’s, so they don’t have but a few to even mow. Want to know how bad it got? The city hired a manager for the 18 hole course, and 9 hole where we used to practice, who had promised she could run both courses on $350,000 a year!!! That’s the total she said she’d need for salaries, hourly workers, equipment, chemicals, etc! No joke! The city HIRED HER, and she didn’t even spend $350,000 that year! You can’t even imagine how bad it was. Our city would have to be a yearly contender to win “worst run recreational facilities” in the nation if there were such an award.

My city needs to have the course run by one of the management companies because it’s horrible. If anyone has names of companies let me know! Seriously.

[GaDawg]

29 minutes ago, PMookie said:

Monroe, LA, already closed a 9 hole course and range years ago for a “road project”. Funny thing is, the road project never came to fruition, so it’s just overgrown land now. It had the best range in the area, and the course was fun, it was where the HS teams used to practice and hold some tournaments. The city still has the old classic 9 hole “course” that’s a goat ranch, and it’s almost never mowed, and then our 18 hole course that has a great layout, just no money put into it, and taken care of by a superintendent that was fired from two local country clubs because he could only grow weeds. Add to this workers get paid more to work at McDonald’s, so they don’t have but a few to even mow. Want to know how bad it got? The city hired a manager for the 18 hole course, and 9 hole where we used to practice, who had promised she could run both courses on $350,000 a year!!! That’s the total she said she’d need for salaries, hourly workers, equipment, chemicals, etc! No joke! The city HIRED HER, and she didn’t even spend $350,000 that year! You can’t even imagine how bad it was. Our city would have to be a yearly contender to win “worst run recreational facilities” in the nation if there were such an award.

My city needs to have the course run by one of the management companies because it’s horrible. If anyone has names of companies let me know! Seriously.

https://www.indigogolf.com/

https://www.americangolf.com/

https://www.thengfq.com/company/courseco-management-co/

[Kansas King]

1 hour ago, PMookie said:

Monroe, LA, already closed a 9 hole course and range years ago for a “road project”. Funny thing is, the road project never came to fruition, so it’s just overgrown land now. It had the best range in the area, and the course was fun, it was where the HS teams used to practice and hold some tournaments. The city still has the old classic 9 hole “course” that’s a goat ranch, and it’s almost never mowed, and then our 18 hole course that has a great layout, just no money put into it, and taken care of by a superintendent that was fired from two local country clubs because he could only grow weeds. Add to this workers get paid more to work at McDonald’s, so they don’t have but a few to even mow. Want to know how bad it got? The city hired a manager for the 18 hole course, and 9 hole where we used to practice, who had promised she could run both courses on $350,000 a year!!! That’s the total she said she’d need for salaries, hourly workers, equipment, chemicals, etc! No joke! The city HIRED HER, and she didn’t even spend $350,000 that year! You can’t even imagine how bad it was. Our city would have to be a yearly contender to win “worst run recreational facilities” in the nation if there were such an award.

My city needs to have the course run by one of the management companies because it’s horrible. If anyone has names of companies let me know! Seriously.

This isn't unusual. A company called Greatlife in the Midwest did a lot of this too. They would approach cities about managing their golf course for a fee that is generally lower than what they were paying for upkeep. Then they would let the whole course go except for the greens. Fortunately, many of the cities and course owners quit using Greatlife a year or two into their agreement as it was so bad.

[KurtActual]

20 hours ago, TBT said:

Almost all of the munis near me are packed all the time now….everybody took up golf during the COVID-19 lockdown.

I used to be able to get a tee time 1 or 2 days in advance….now it’s a full week everywhere 

I live just outside Houston city limits, and the non-resident fees are INSANE. Memorial is $120+ for a Tuesday at 1PM in August. I dont think that included a cart either.

[ejgaudette]

18 hours ago, Kansas King said:

2) It cost money to play. Municipal golf courses are generally one of the few city owned areas that require you to pay a fee before you can go on. Plus, generally speaking, golf isn't cheap. 

This is the one that gets me though. In England almost all those courses let people walk through the course for no cost. I know there is the risk of being hit by a ball is probably the reason, but you could have a nice walking track around the outside edge of the course to allow recreation that is free. I mean getting a nice trail to run on around a golf course sounds amazing versus running on the road. 

[Kansas King]

37 minutes ago, ejgaudette said:

This is the one that gets me though. In England almost all those courses let people walk through the course for no cost. I know there is the risk of being hit by a ball is probably the reason, but you could have a nice walking track around the outside edge of the course to allow recreation that is free. I mean getting a nice trail to run on around a golf course sounds amazing versus running on the road. 

I generally agree with the premise of your thoughts about maybe having a walking track but the U.S. is a litigious country and if someone gets injured, liability is on someone. Plus, paying golfers generally get extremely irritated when people that aren't golfing or working on the golf course slow down play, me being one of them (GET OFF MY LAWN!). I could see maybe having a specific walking path or trail if the course was designed with it in mind but most courses in the U.S. do not have a layout or design that would be conducive for it. Regarding legal liability for injuries, the federal and/or state governments would likely need to pass laws clarifying liability. Not that it couldn't work in the U.S., but there is an inherent level of danger on a golf course if everyone on the course isn't in a predictable location. Homeowners that live on golf courses in the U.S. generally have implied liability for damages caused by golf balls (broken windows, etc.) assuming the golfer wasn't maliciously targeting the house. A similar level of implied liability would need to be set in stone for nongolfers walking or running through a course but even then, it would be muddy because nongolfers on a course aren't standing in one place. Overall, it would just be messy and that is why all the courses I've ever known of don't allow nongolfers to walk the course, at least during normal golfing hours. 

[Kansas King]

1 hour ago, KurtActual said:

I live just outside Houston city limits, and the non-resident fees are INSANE. Memorial is $120+ for a Tuesday at 1PM in August. I dont think that included a cart either.

Has Houston just turned into a special kind of hell. I've not been to Houston yet and really don't have any plans to go down there. I've talked to some coworkers that live their and they talk about the cost of living, horrible commute, and spectacularly hot/humid weather. Outside of work, is there any reason people are attracted to Houston, it just seems kind of overcrowded. 

[Pandaman]

1 hour ago, ejgaudette said:

This is the one that gets me though. In England almost all those courses let people walk through the course for no cost. I know there is the risk of being hit by a ball is probably the reason, but you could have a nice walking track around the outside edge of the course to allow recreation that is free. I mean getting a nice trail to run on around a golf course sounds amazing versus running on the road. 

Well it's not so much 'letting them', from my understanding it's more like can't legally stop them. 

We have a huge, ancient, network of public footpaths that are legal rights of way, and you can't just close them off.  Many of these routes cross farm fields too, not just golf courses. Walkers are supposed to stay on the path and keep to the correct routes though.  

It does make your butt clench a bit when you smash a drive and a walker suddenly appears.

[ejgaudette]

20 minutes ago, Kansas King said:

I generally agree with the premise of your thoughts about maybe having a walking track but the U.S. is a litigious country and if someone gets injured, liability is on someone. Plus, paying golfers generally get extremely irritated when people that aren't golfing or working on the golf course slow down play, me being one of them (GET OFF MY LAWN!). I could see maybe having a specific walking path or trail if the course was designed with it in mind but most courses in the U.S. do not have a layout or design that would be conducive for it. Regarding legal liability for injuries, the federal and/or state governments would likely need to pass laws clarifying liability. Not that it couldn't work in the U.S., but there is an inherent level of danger on a golf course if everyone on the course isn't in a predictable location. Homeowners that live on golf courses in the U.S. generally have implied liability for damages caused by golf balls (broken windows, etc.) assuming the golfer wasn't maliciously targeting the house. A similar level of implied liability would need to be set in stone for nongolfers walking or running through a course but even then, it would be muddy because nongolfers on a course aren't standing in one place. Overall, it would just be messy and that is why all the courses I've ever known of don't allow nongolfers to walk the course, at least during normal golfing hours. 

Yes I get all that still feel like that would be a way to help in some cases to see it as more than a wasted space, but yes I doubt it would ever happen.

[TBT]

1 hour ago, KurtActual said:

I live just outside Houston city limits, and the non-resident fees are INSANE. Memorial is $120+ for a Tuesday at 1PM in August. I dont think that included a cart either.

Yes The rates at Memorial have skyrocketed since they did the redesign and moved the Houston open there

Hermann park is still a pretty good value add about 48 bucks including cart for weekend teetimes

[TBT]

1 hour ago, KurtActual said:

I live just outside Houston city limits, and the non-resident fees are INSANE. Memorial is $120+ for a Tuesday at 1PM in August. I dont think that included a cart either.

Also if you ever want to get together and play I’m all for that, the guys I play with most of the time can only get out maybe once or twice a month.

[GaDawg]

1 hour ago, Kansas King said:

Has Houston just turned into a special kind of hell. I've not been to Houston yet and really don't have any plans to go down there. I've talked to some coworkers that live their and they talk about the cost of living, horrible commute, and spectacularly hot/humid weather. Outside of work, is there any reason people are attracted to Houston, it just seems kind of overcrowded. 

Sounds like Atlanta, Ga., but Atlanta probably has worse crime

[KurtActual]

2 hours ago, TBT said:

Also if you ever want to get together and play I’m all for that, the guys I play with most of the time can only get out maybe once or twice a month.

I'm probably not able to play much more often than your buddies. Luckily my 9 year old is in First Tee, so I get to play when he needs to get a round in.

Tee times are insane out NW where I am. Booked 5+ days in advance and all at premium pricing. 

[KurtActual]

2 hours ago, Kansas King said:

Has Houston just turned into a special kind of hell. I've not been to Houston yet and really don't have any plans to go down there. I've talked to some coworkers that live their and they talk about the cost of living, horrible commute, and spectacularly hot/humid weather. Outside of work, is there any reason people are attracted to Houston, it just seems kind of overcrowded. 

Sorry, thought I had added both quotes to the last post.

"Houston" is more of a geographic area than a city. It takes an hour and a half to get anywhere. You have to drive 45+min in any direction to get to an affordable cost of living.

If it werent for my occupation, I'd live anywhere else in the US.

 

[Kansas King]

1 hour ago, KurtActual said:

Sorry, thought I had added both quotes to the last post.

"Houston" is more of a geographic area than a city. It takes an hour and a half to get anywhere. You have to drive 45+min in any direction to get to an affordable cost of living.

If it werent for my occupation, I'd live anywhere else in the US.

 

What you say about Houston seems to mimick some of my coworkers. 

[HardcoreLooper]

20 hours ago, TBT said:

Yes The rates at Memorial have skyrocketed since they did the redesign and moved the Houston open there

Hermann park is still a pretty good value add about 48 bucks including cart for weekend teetimes

How are the rates for residents?  I don't really have an issue with sticking it to out-of-towners if it subsidizes cheaper greensfees for locals.

[Jzcrouse]

Milwaukee does a pretty good job with munis. I guess it may be because there are very few courses that are privately owned in Milwaukee county and the ones not owned by the city are mostly private. I'm not really sure how they go about the business but they have really only ever improved their courses. Perhaps it's the Monopoly they essentially have with 6 regulation courses and a few executive courses. I don't see them going anywhere anytime soon. 

Edited August 20, 2021 by Jzcrouse
Typo

[ZenGolfer]

On 8/18/2021 at 10:38 AM, Kansas King said:

In my part of the country along with most others there are more nongolfers than golfers. This has led to some interesting trends or undercurrents regarding the politics of municipal golf courses in some cities. As cities grow, I see more and more proposals from individuals and groups about turning munis into parks and other things. In my city, we already lost one muni to this. The pandemic has helped the muni budgets tremendously and has probably slowed down the conversations about converting golf courses. However, the pressure still remains that publicly owned areas that are used for golf courses be turned into more accessible areas that can be used by anyone. Golf courses are easy targets because they are usually lined with trees and well maintained. For me, the scariest part is that if an influential group latches on to the idea, they really only have to convince three or four city councilmen to vote a certain way.

I'm curious how much this is happening elsewhere and if anyone has seen a good argument in favor of the golf course over something like a park. Do you see this trend going away or picking up steam?

Id say it all really just depends how popular golf is in that area and how much demand there is for parks vs golf courses.

I never lived in Milwaukee but when I lived in small town Wisconsin, there were very few munis (probably a byproduct of living in a small town).  All of courses that I played were privately owned ones that were either public or semi-private.

I dont know about everywhere else either but here in Columbus, Ohio; the muni courses are not for profit, so its all about operating on a shoestring budget in order to fit within the budget that the city sets for them.

Here in Columbus, golf is pretty popular and all of the munis have pretty stacked tee time sheets, at least until football season starts.

Ive lived here for about 10 years and I can only think of 1 muni that has gotten shut down and turned into a park.  In the case of that one, it was more a matter that the clubhouse was severly in need of getting renovated/rebuilt (it looked like the 1970s inside and was practically falling down) and the city just couldnt justify the cost of building a new clubhouse and making the other improvements that the course needed, especially when there were 7 other muni courses in a 2 million person city, not to mention that dozens and dozens of other golf courses.

As with anything else when it comes to dealing with the government, its all about votes, winning elections and consolodating and maintaining power.  If they think that its something that could either win or lose them an election, you can bet they will act on it.