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The future of municipal golf courses?


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2 hours ago, THEZIPR23 said:

In our lovely state it is worse than imaginable. They are trying to remove the zoning protections for all muni's. It will be a nasty fight and not all will close but if it passes there will definitely be some casualties. 

 

https://www.turfnet.com/news.html/are-municipal-golfs-days-numbered-in-california-r1538/

I'm not at all surprised.  What I don't get is that municipal golf courses, like parks with tennis courts, basketball courts, baseball fields, soccer fields, etc., are their for the enjoyment of the taxpayers who pay for them.  Why aren't the same proponents of closing them down for low income housing, etc., calling for parks to be repurposed?  I think they largely view golf as a "special interest group"... but just not one they favor.  

I'll hopefully have long since earned my wings by the time this grand idea makes its way to Montana.

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3 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

I'm not at all surprised.  What I don't get is that municipal golf courses, like parks with tennis courts, basketball courts, baseball fields, soccer fields, etc., are their for the enjoyment of the taxpayers who pay for them.  Why aren't the same proponents of closing them down for low income housing, etc., calling for parks to be repurposed?  I think they largely view golf as a "special interest group"... but just not one they favor.  

I'll hopefully have long since earned my wings by the time this grand idea makes its way to Montana.

Golf is easy to target for a few reasons:

1) It generally takes up way more space than any football or baseball field. One par four is going to be four football fields in size on it's own. 

2) It cost money to play. Municipal golf courses are generally one of the few city owned areas that require you to pay a fee before you can go on. Plus, generally speaking, golf isn't cheap. 

3) I don't know the numbers but I would assume there are more people that don't play golf than those that do and probably be a rather wide margin. Most Americans usually grow up playing baseball/softball but the same can't be said for golf. Plus, there is a whole subreddit dedicated to not playing golf called r/nongolfers. They support non-golf living and call it ateeism or anti-teeism. It's kind of funny. It's not a big group of people but golf is the only sport on reddit that I know of to have a contra-sport account. 

I don't know what the best arguments are against the three reasons I gave but I don't think it's hard to fathom why golf would be targeted. 

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My youngest is studying urban planning/development/policy. She's not a fan of golf courses due to the "wasted" space. I've already told her not to touch golf courses when she gets into her career. Especially since it would not surprise me a bit if she ended up in politics.

Ironically, my dad was an avid golfer but insisted on being cremated because he viewed cemeteries as a huge waste of space. Go figure.

In mature, stable areas like NE Ohio (no rapid expansion, perhaps a little contraction at times), I don't see or hear many clamoring for the real estate. As @DiscipleofPenick mentioned, a lot of the closures, at least in the Akron area, were more related to families wanting to get out of the business and many of those lots remain empty. A country club near my house closed a couple seasons ago, but they were bought out and apparently the new business model wasn't effective. They sold to developers and work is ongoing but it is no longer recognizable as a golf course - hundreds of trees gone, fairway sculpting flattened, etc. I'm not sure if it was zoned for business or presidential, but the area doesn't really need more traffic than it has right now - it's already one of the busier areas of Akron, especially during the holidays.

 

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Of for sure golfers are a majority but when you add up the number of parks, and costs associated with their upkeep, I'll bet we'd be surprised to find the total acreage and annual costs aren't that far off.  NYC has more than 30,000 acres of parks which includes 14 golf courses. At ~120 acres/course, that results in <6% of the total. That doesn't seem unreasonable (from a golfers eyes 🙂). I don't know for sure, but I'll bet collectively, the golf courses pay their way more so than the balance of the holdings.  When I see the proponents for closing golf courses suggest, with the same level of interest and reason for the greater good, the same be done for parks, I'll change my position.

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26 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Of for sure golfers are a majority but when you add up the number of parks, and costs associated with their upkeep, I'll bet we'd be surprised to find the total acreage and annual costs aren't that far off.  NYC has more than 30,000 acres of parks which includes 14 golf courses. At ~120 acres/course, that results in <6% of the total. That doesn't seem unreasonable (from a golfers eyes 🙂). I don't know for sure, but I'll bet collectively, the golf courses pay their way more so than the balance of the holdings.  When I see the proponents for closing golf courses suggest, with the same level of interest and reason for the greater good, the same be done for parks, I'll change my position.

Follow the money.  As long as golf courses are turning a good profit, like this past year, munis should be safe.  It's when they don't make money, or very little over expenses that they become targets.  That happened to many courses, both muni and private, after the Tiger boom ended.  

We have three munis, three other public courses, one private CC, and several 9 public hole courses.  All are crowded all the time.  That hasn't changed in 25 years, but our population has tripled in that time frame.  We could use more courses, but people are reluctant to spend money when the looked at the course closures all over the country.  Personally, I think that is a big reason that golf is not more popular; it's not easy to get a tee time.  It's not for a lack of space for us; lots of wide open spaces with the Columbia River running through the middle of our population center.

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6 minutes ago, Kenny B said:

Follow the money.  As long as golf courses are turning a good profit, like this past year, munis should be safe.  It's when they don't make money, or very little over expenses that they become targets.  That happened to many courses, both muni and private, after the Tiger boom ended.  

We have three munis, three other public courses, one private CC, and several 9 public hole courses.  All are crowded all the time.  That hasn't changed in 25 years, but our population has tripled in that time frame.  We could use more courses, but people are reluctant to spend money when the looked at the course closures all over the country.  Personally, I think that is a big reason that golf is not more popular; it's not easy to get a tee time.  It's not for a lack of space for us; lots of wide open spaces with the Columbia River running through the middle of our population center.

That is so true for virtually everything, but in the case of golf course land for low income housing (as and example), where's the monetary carrot?  I get the humanitarian carrot, but there are other options that don't require closing down courses. There is no reason public golf courses should be held to a higher fiscal standard than the rest of the parks and recreation holdings.  They are, but shouldn't be IMO.  It would not surprise me that a number of courses in various cities are actually paying for themselves and the no pay for use holdings.  

I have a handful of other reasons why I think they are viewed/regarded as they are but that takes us down a bumpy, dead end road.  

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8 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

That is so true for virtually everything, but in the case of golf course land for low income housing (as and example), where's the monetary carrot?  I get the humanitarian carrot, but there are other options that don't require closing down courses. There is no reason public golf courses should be held to a higher fiscal standard than the rest of the parks and recreation holdings.  They are, but shouldn't be IMO.  It would not surprise me that a number of courses in various cities are actually paying for themselves and the no pay for use holdings.  

I have a handful of other reasons why I think they are viewed/regarded as they are but that takes us down a bumpy, dead end road.  

I think the fair way to look at a muni from a financial standpoint is to assess the cost to the city and compare it to the cost of maintaining it like a comparable park. I think most would find a muni that was even losing some money would be a lower cost to the city than having to maintain a park that doesn't bring in any revenue. With that said, most cities, including mine, have more ambitious desires for 80 - 120 prime acres than just having some grass and trees. So my comparison wouldn't be fair as a real comparison would have to include a discounted cash flow analysis that would look at the income brought in from any sales to developers, event venue income, fee income, etc. I also think you have to have a consideration for the number of jobs a golf course supports and compare it to the alternative. And, ultimately, you have to assess what the needs of the community and if having something other than a golf course would make a real different fitting a need. It's not a decision that is 100% based on dollars and cents.

The other problem with getting rid of munis is the challenge of actually trying to choose what to do with it once it's gone. In my city, they are trying to create a big multi-use park out of the old course. However, they are running into issues of cost and differences in desires for the space. Many are starting to question if getting rid of the golf course was the correct decision at all. I think a big reason they decided to end the golf course was that it was in a low- to moderate-income area that they thought they could revitalize with a big flashy new park. The new park would have a private restaurant or two, plane watching hill, promenade, indoor farmers market, sports fields/courts, etc. Anyone want to guess the estimated price tag? $28 million. 

Yep, $28 million. You can run a near break-even golf course for an eternity on $28 million. That doesn't even include the costs of upkeep on the new park. Even my more progressive urbanite friends grimaced a little when they saw the price tag for the proposed park. In our current environment, it actually wouldn't totally surprise me if the city ditched the whole idea of the park and turned it into a golf course again. They could probably reopen it as a course in great condition with refreshed facilities for under $1 million and have it break even on costs. I don't know of any analysis anywhere that could justify spending $28 million on a park. I would understand it if they could sell half the land to developers and use that money to pay for and maintain the park but that's not the case here.

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16 minutes ago, Kansas King said:

Yep, $28 million. You can run a near break-even golf course for an eternity on $28 million.

Adjusted using the OPM index, $28M looks like a bargain to some.  The bottom-line here is that there will never be a shortage of people who lobby to close down public courses for "better uses" nor the call by some to close all golf courses for their negative environmental impact.  Fortunately, we all still have some opportunities to formally argue against those plans.  I wish them the utmost failure in their endeavor.

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Lobbying to close down golf courses is very much en vogue for some these days.  Hobbs, NM has a better idea.

https://www.rockwindgolfcourse.com/

Henrico County, just north of Richmond, almost repurposed their Tillinghast-designed course into a sports complex, but a determined group of local golfers and neighborhood families banded together to keep that from happening.  It can be done.

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In Utah, the main complaints I've heard regarding golf courses haven't centered around space, but rather around resources. Utah's one of the driest states in the country, and so people complain when two of the highest sources of water usage are sports fields and golf courses. Utah is fortunately a very golfer heavy place, and despite having so many courses, including munis, Salt Lake is always packed. But even then, there seems to be far more kids and soccer/baseball/football parents than golfers, so golf tends to be the sacrificial lamb of the two that gets complained about more. 

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1 hour ago, HardcoreLooper said:

Lobbying to close down golf courses is very much en vogue for some these days.  Hobbs, NM has a better idea.

https://www.rockwindgolfcourse.com/

Henrico County, just north of Richmond, almost repurposed their Tillinghast-designed course into a sports complex, but a determined group of local golfers and neighborhood families banded together to keep that from happening.  It can be done.

Almost took a job in Hobbs... but couldn't make myself move there!!

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Monroe, LA, already closed a 9 hole course and range years ago for a “road project”. Funny thing is, the road project never came to fruition, so it’s just overgrown land now. It had the best range in the area, and the course was fun, it was where the HS teams used to practice and hold some tournaments. The city still has the old classic 9 hole “course” that’s a goat ranch, and it’s almost never mowed, and then our 18 hole course that has a great layout, just no money put into it, and taken care of by a superintendent that was fired from two local country clubs because he could only grow weeds. Add to this workers get paid more to work at McDonald’s, so they don’t have but a few to even mow. Want to know how bad it got? The city hired a manager for the 18 hole course, and 9 hole where we used to practice, who had promised she could run both courses on $350,000 a year!!! That’s the total she said she’d need for salaries, hourly workers, equipment, chemicals, etc! No joke! The city HIRED HER, and she didn’t even spend $350,000 that year! You can’t even imagine how bad it was. Our city would have to be a yearly contender to win “worst run recreational facilities” in the nation if there were such an award.

My city needs to have the course run by one of the management companies because it’s horrible. If anyone has names of companies let me know! Seriously.

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29 minutes ago, PMookie said:

Monroe, LA, already closed a 9 hole course and range years ago for a “road project”. Funny thing is, the road project never came to fruition, so it’s just overgrown land now. It had the best range in the area, and the course was fun, it was where the HS teams used to practice and hold some tournaments. The city still has the old classic 9 hole “course” that’s a goat ranch, and it’s almost never mowed, and then our 18 hole course that has a great layout, just no money put into it, and taken care of by a superintendent that was fired from two local country clubs because he could only grow weeds. Add to this workers get paid more to work at McDonald’s, so they don’t have but a few to even mow. Want to know how bad it got? The city hired a manager for the 18 hole course, and 9 hole where we used to practice, who had promised she could run both courses on $350,000 a year!!! That’s the total she said she’d need for salaries, hourly workers, equipment, chemicals, etc! No joke! The city HIRED HER, and she didn’t even spend $350,000 that year! You can’t even imagine how bad it was. Our city would have to be a yearly contender to win “worst run recreational facilities” in the nation if there were such an award.

My city needs to have the course run by one of the management companies because it’s horrible. If anyone has names of companies let me know! Seriously.

https://www.indigogolf.com/

https://www.americangolf.com/

https://www.thengfq.com/company/courseco-management-co/

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1 hour ago, PMookie said:

Monroe, LA, already closed a 9 hole course and range years ago for a “road project”. Funny thing is, the road project never came to fruition, so it’s just overgrown land now. It had the best range in the area, and the course was fun, it was where the HS teams used to practice and hold some tournaments. The city still has the old classic 9 hole “course” that’s a goat ranch, and it’s almost never mowed, and then our 18 hole course that has a great layout, just no money put into it, and taken care of by a superintendent that was fired from two local country clubs because he could only grow weeds. Add to this workers get paid more to work at McDonald’s, so they don’t have but a few to even mow. Want to know how bad it got? The city hired a manager for the 18 hole course, and 9 hole where we used to practice, who had promised she could run both courses on $350,000 a year!!! That’s the total she said she’d need for salaries, hourly workers, equipment, chemicals, etc! No joke! The city HIRED HER, and she didn’t even spend $350,000 that year! You can’t even imagine how bad it was. Our city would have to be a yearly contender to win “worst run recreational facilities” in the nation if there were such an award.

My city needs to have the course run by one of the management companies because it’s horrible. If anyone has names of companies let me know! Seriously.

This isn't unusual. A company called Greatlife in the Midwest did a lot of this too. They would approach cities about managing their golf course for a fee that is generally lower than what they were paying for upkeep. Then they would let the whole course go except for the greens. Fortunately, many of the cities and course owners quit using Greatlife a year or two into their agreement as it was so bad.

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20 hours ago, TBT said:

Almost all of the munis near me are packed all the time now….everybody took up golf during the COVID-19 lockdown.

I used to be able to get a tee time 1 or 2 days in advance….now it’s a full week everywhere 

I live just outside Houston city limits, and the non-resident fees are INSANE. Memorial is $120+ for a Tuesday at 1PM in August. I dont think that included a cart either.

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Tiger is the GOAT, change my mind.

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18 hours ago, Kansas King said:

2) It cost money to play. Municipal golf courses are generally one of the few city owned areas that require you to pay a fee before you can go on. Plus, generally speaking, golf isn't cheap. 

This is the one that gets me though. In England almost all those courses let people walk through the course for no cost. I know there is the risk of being hit by a ball is probably the reason, but you could have a nice walking track around the outside edge of the course to allow recreation that is free. I mean getting a nice trail to run on around a golf course sounds amazing versus running on the road. 

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37 minutes ago, ejgaudette said:

This is the one that gets me though. In England almost all those courses let people walk through the course for no cost. I know there is the risk of being hit by a ball is probably the reason, but you could have a nice walking track around the outside edge of the course to allow recreation that is free. I mean getting a nice trail to run on around a golf course sounds amazing versus running on the road. 

I generally agree with the premise of your thoughts about maybe having a walking track but the U.S. is a litigious country and if someone gets injured, liability is on someone. Plus, paying golfers generally get extremely irritated when people that aren't golfing or working on the golf course slow down play, me being one of them (GET OFF MY LAWN!). I could see maybe having a specific walking path or trail if the course was designed with it in mind but most courses in the U.S. do not have a layout or design that would be conducive for it. Regarding legal liability for injuries, the federal and/or state governments would likely need to pass laws clarifying liability. Not that it couldn't work in the U.S., but there is an inherent level of danger on a golf course if everyone on the course isn't in a predictable location. Homeowners that live on golf courses in the U.S. generally have implied liability for damages caused by golf balls (broken windows, etc.) assuming the golfer wasn't maliciously targeting the house. A similar level of implied liability would need to be set in stone for nongolfers walking or running through a course but even then, it would be muddy because nongolfers on a course aren't standing in one place. Overall, it would just be messy and that is why all the courses I've ever known of don't allow nongolfers to walk the course, at least during normal golfing hours. 

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1 hour ago, KurtActual said:

I live just outside Houston city limits, and the non-resident fees are INSANE. Memorial is $120+ for a Tuesday at 1PM in August. I dont think that included a cart either.

Has Houston just turned into a special kind of hell. I've not been to Houston yet and really don't have any plans to go down there. I've talked to some coworkers that live their and they talk about the cost of living, horrible commute, and spectacularly hot/humid weather. Outside of work, is there any reason people are attracted to Houston, it just seems kind of overcrowded. 

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1 hour ago, ejgaudette said:

This is the one that gets me though. In England almost all those courses let people walk through the course for no cost. I know there is the risk of being hit by a ball is probably the reason, but you could have a nice walking track around the outside edge of the course to allow recreation that is free. I mean getting a nice trail to run on around a golf course sounds amazing versus running on the road. 

Well it's not so much 'letting them', from my understanding it's more like can't legally stop them. 

We have a huge, ancient, network of public footpaths that are legal rights of way, and you can't just close them off.  Many of these routes cross farm fields too, not just golf courses. Walkers are supposed to stay on the path and keep to the correct routes though.  

It does make your butt clench a bit when you smash a drive and a walker suddenly appears.

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20 minutes ago, Kansas King said:

I generally agree with the premise of your thoughts about maybe having a walking track but the U.S. is a litigious country and if someone gets injured, liability is on someone. Plus, paying golfers generally get extremely irritated when people that aren't golfing or working on the golf course slow down play, me being one of them (GET OFF MY LAWN!). I could see maybe having a specific walking path or trail if the course was designed with it in mind but most courses in the U.S. do not have a layout or design that would be conducive for it. Regarding legal liability for injuries, the federal and/or state governments would likely need to pass laws clarifying liability. Not that it couldn't work in the U.S., but there is an inherent level of danger on a golf course if everyone on the course isn't in a predictable location. Homeowners that live on golf courses in the U.S. generally have implied liability for damages caused by golf balls (broken windows, etc.) assuming the golfer wasn't maliciously targeting the house. A similar level of implied liability would need to be set in stone for nongolfers walking or running through a course but even then, it would be muddy because nongolfers on a course aren't standing in one place. Overall, it would just be messy and that is why all the courses I've ever known of don't allow nongolfers to walk the course, at least during normal golfing hours. 

Yes I get all that still feel like that would be a way to help in some cases to see it as more than a wasted space, but yes I doubt it would ever happen.

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