GolfSpy MPR Posted August 20, 2021 Share Posted August 20, 2021 I started a Twitter discussion that I thought I'd bring over here as well: who is the best player on the PGA Tour who doesn't have one area of the game that is an obvious weakness for him? I'm going to restrict this to the PGA Tour. I got a lot of Nelly Korda nominations on Twitter, and she might well top the list. The problem is that the LPGA doesn't currently collect or publish SG stats. Traditional stats and the eye test certainly puts her in this conversation. For the player without obvious weaknesses, I didn't want to use SG:Total. For a player like Bryson, for instance, his dominant SG:Off the Tee number offset his really awful SG:Around the Green performance. He's 3rd overall in SG:Total; he's quite a bit lower in the rankings I produced. Here was my procedure to answer that question: I dumped the Tour Strokes Gained numbers for Off the Tee, Approach, Around the Green, and Putting into a spreadsheet. For a first go, I simply averaged each players ranking in those four categories. That produced this list: I kept digging into this spreadsheet, and found things both surprising and not. There are 206 players who qualify for rankings based on SG numbers. Of those: Brooks come in at 11, with 114th AtG. JT is 13th overall, hurt by his 126th in putting. Bryson is 17th, with 124th AtG. Rory is 18th: 87th AtG and 104th in putting. Morikawa is 170/206 in putting, dragging him down to a 34th place ranking in the averages. The list of guys who are Top-75 in all four SG categories: Cantlay, Rahm, Xander, Webb, and DJ. That's a good start for the list of guys without obvious weaknesses. At the other end of the spectrum are guys who are killed by one weakness. This list contains some usual suspects: Keegan: OtT 26, App 4, AtG: 47, Putt: 193 Sergio: OtT 3, App 54, AtG: 72, Putt: 194 Hideki: OtT: 49, App: 7, AtG: 41, Putt: 183 Any thoughts? Or what procedure would you use to answer the question I've posed? GolfSpy_SHARK, Nolan220, JerBooth and 2 others 5 Quote TS3 9.5°, Tensei Blue CBX T3 15°, Project X HZRDUS Black Epic Super Hybrid 18°, Aerotech Steel Fiber FC HYB S C722 21°, Ventus Blue 8S CBX Iron-Wood 25°, Project X HZRDUS Black 6.0 639 CB, Aldila NV 95 Graphite, 6–PW CBX 48° T22 54° and 60° EAS 4.0, Garsen G-Pro grip TP5x and Tour Response Full WITB with pictures Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GolfSpy_SHARK Posted August 20, 2021 Share Posted August 20, 2021 Strokes gained is Definitely the way to look at this I think. How did Cameron smith look overall? Guessing his OtT hurts him. I think it’s really tough to go against Rahmbo when ya add those recent wins to the SG Nolan220, GolfSpy BOS, GolfSpy MPR and 1 other 4 Quote Check out my reviews: G710 Irons Official Review I MC Shaft & V Series Putter Official Review 2022 Forged Tec's Official Review I Nitron Push Cart Official Review WITB: Weapons of grass destruction (link to WITB) Traverse is filled with all this shiny metal and tracked by RadSpeed 8* - MotoreX F1 6X SIM 3W - Project X HZRDUS Green U505 Driving Iron 17* - Project X HZRDUS Black SpeedZone 4H - Project X HZRDUS Black 2022 King Forged Tec's 4-PW - KBS $ Tape 130 48 (SM8), 52 & 60 (SM7) - Nippon Modus 125 S ER2VI PROV1X #19 Are you a veteran? Check out the Veterans Golf Association (VGA) Thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GolfSpy MPR Posted August 20, 2021 Author Share Posted August 20, 2021 2 minutes ago, Lacassem said: Strokes gained is Definitely the way to look at this I think. How did Cameron smith look overall? Guessing his OtT hurts him. I think it’s really tough to go against Rahmbo when ya add those recent wins to the SG You nailed it. Cam is 24th in my ranking: OtT: 116 App: 71 AtG: 29 Putt: 9 Nolan220, GolfSpy BOS and GolfSpy_SHARK 3 Quote TS3 9.5°, Tensei Blue CBX T3 15°, Project X HZRDUS Black Epic Super Hybrid 18°, Aerotech Steel Fiber FC HYB S C722 21°, Ventus Blue 8S CBX Iron-Wood 25°, Project X HZRDUS Black 6.0 639 CB, Aldila NV 95 Graphite, 6–PW CBX 48° T22 54° and 60° EAS 4.0, Garsen G-Pro grip TP5x and Tour Response Full WITB with pictures Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shapotomous Posted August 20, 2021 Share Posted August 20, 2021 Before looking at the list I guessed Xander. I am surprised Louis is #1 in sg putting since on the broadcast they harp on putting being a weakness of is the last few years. GolfSpy MPR, GolfSpy BOS and GolfSpy_SHARK 3 Quote Modern Bag: G410 LST 10.5*, Hzrdus Smoke RDX 6.5 Flex; 915F 3w, Diamana S+ 70 S flex; Snake Eyes 18* 2h, 23* 4h & 27* 5h; JPX 900 Forged 6 - PW, PX LZ 6.0; Edison 2.0 49*, 53*, 57* KBS Tour 120 S; Heppler Fetch; Ball - MTB-X; Bag - Jones MyGolfSpy Edition! Shot Scope H4, MG600 Rangefinder Classic Bag: Driver - Persimmon; 3w - Speed Slot; 5w - Tour Block; 3 - pw - Dynapower; sw - Ram Tom Watson; putter - bullseye standard or flange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GolfSpy MPR Posted August 20, 2021 Author Share Posted August 20, 2021 Here's the same data above, but taking each player's worst category and counting it triple value. This means that if a player has one bad category, it will definitely get emphasized. As a neat side effect: all players in the top 10 on this list are top 100 in every SG category: GolfSpy BOS, JerBooth and GolfSpy_SHARK 3 Quote TS3 9.5°, Tensei Blue CBX T3 15°, Project X HZRDUS Black Epic Super Hybrid 18°, Aerotech Steel Fiber FC HYB S C722 21°, Ventus Blue 8S CBX Iron-Wood 25°, Project X HZRDUS Black 6.0 639 CB, Aldila NV 95 Graphite, 6–PW CBX 48° T22 54° and 60° EAS 4.0, Garsen G-Pro grip TP5x and Tour Response Full WITB with pictures Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shankster Posted August 20, 2021 Share Posted August 20, 2021 There needs to be a category for attitude. In a major BK is a different beast. He gains strokes with his attitude at those events. This of course is unmeasurable, and has no bearing on anything that you’ve asked. Here I go again. GolfSpy_SHARK, GolfSpy BOS and GolfSpy MPR 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GolfSpy MPR Posted August 20, 2021 Author Share Posted August 20, 2021 Just now, Shankster said: There needs to be a category for attitude. In a major BK is a different beast. He gains strokes with his attitude at those events. This of course is unmeasurable, and has no bearing on anything that you’ve asked. Here I go again. Yeah, I had one comment that said Rahm's temper was his weakness. Maybe. But it's hard to see that in the numbers. Kansas King, GolfSpy BOS, HeathS16 and 2 others 5 Quote TS3 9.5°, Tensei Blue CBX T3 15°, Project X HZRDUS Black Epic Super Hybrid 18°, Aerotech Steel Fiber FC HYB S C722 21°, Ventus Blue 8S CBX Iron-Wood 25°, Project X HZRDUS Black 6.0 639 CB, Aldila NV 95 Graphite, 6–PW CBX 48° T22 54° and 60° EAS 4.0, Garsen G-Pro grip TP5x and Tour Response Full WITB with pictures Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GolfSpy BOS Posted August 20, 2021 Share Posted August 20, 2021 47 minutes ago, GolfSpy MPR said: Yeah, I had one comment that said Rahm's temper was his weakness. Maybe. But it's hard to see that in the numbers. I think I'd lean with Rahm. His game looks incredibly solid right this year and he also seems to have worked on his temped a lot since he had his kid. It's amazing how something like that can change you overnight. Maybe it helped him a bit with a perspective change? At any rate, he's obviously still passionate and fiery, but he seems to be using it to more of an advantage now. GolfSpy_SHARK 1 Quote Epic Max LS 10.5 - Motore X F3 6X | Speedzone 5-wood - Ventus Blue 8S | TSi3 20* Hybrid - KBS Proto 85S SMS Pro 4-PW - Steelfiber i110S | MG3 Raw Black 50.09, 54.11, 58.11 - DG TI S200 ER2B | Pro V1x | NX9 Slope | Jones Trouper R | CaddyLite EZ v8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerBooth Posted August 20, 2021 Share Posted August 20, 2021 I have to say I'm surprised by Hideki's putting. Putting at Augusta is not the easiest, maybe not the hardest. I wonder if it was just a fluke he did putt half decent and the rest of his game saved him. On the flipside, I'm surprised by Brooks Around the Green number being that low. I always thought he was half decent greenside. To be fair, I've never really looked into this stuff in the way you have MPR. I'll definitely be paying a little more attention. Even my own game to see where I can improve. GolfSpy MPR 1 Quote Driver - Mavrik w/ Aldila Rogue White 130MSI 60X 3-Wood - RocketBallz 3 HL Hybrid - Apex 2 w/ Kuro Kage 65g Stiff Irons - Steelhead XR's w/ KBS Tour-V 90 - 5-PW, AW - Stiff Wedges - Kirkland Signature 52*, 56*, 60* Putter - Spider S #1 Platinum/White Grips - Golf Pride Tour Velvet Midsize Ball - Srixon Z-star.....Q-Star in Spring and Fall Jeremy Booth Swing easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickyBobby_PR Posted August 20, 2021 Share Posted August 20, 2021 They all have a weakness. The ones who avoid it disrupting their game that week usually wins. Nelly as we saw today like several others struggles in the greens Quote Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4 Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120 Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60 Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1 Ball: Titleist Prov1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LICC Posted August 20, 2021 Share Posted August 20, 2021 Putting can vary greatly year to year. My first reaction was Xander, Rahm, and Morikawa. I wonder what the numbers look like for majors only. Koepka would obviously be right there as well. GolfSpy MPR and GolfSpy_SHARK 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnosil Posted August 20, 2021 Share Posted August 20, 2021 Interesting discussion but I think it is hard to just rank players based on strokes gained. It is definitely the best metric, but what is the difference between the top player and where the subject player is on the list. meaning is the difference between 1 and 100 less than .05 strokes or is it closer to 1 stroke? Also is one of the strokes gained categories more beneficial and another more penal? I think Lou Stagner has put together data charts that show being better off the tee is better than better at putting. But to answer your question, IMO the current top players would probably be Rahm and Morikawa. GolfSpy BOS, GolfSpy_SHARK and GolfSpy MPR 3 Quote Driver: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven Fairway: TS3 15* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke Hybrids: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype 915H 24* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype Irons: TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite Wedge: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite Putter: Sacks Parente MC 3 Stripe Backup Putters: Milled Collection RSX 2, mFGP2, Futura 5W, TM-180 Member: MGS Hitsquad since 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GolfSpy MPR Posted August 20, 2021 Author Share Posted August 20, 2021 1 hour ago, cnosil said: Interesting discussion but I think it is hard to just rank players based on strokes gained. It is definitely the best metric, but what is the difference between the top player and where the subject player is on the list. meaning is the difference between 1 and 100 less than .05 strokes or is it closer to 1 stroke? Also is one of the strokes gained categories more beneficial and another more penal? I think Lou Stagner has put together data charts that show being better off the tee is better than better at putting. But to answer your question, IMO the current top players would probably be Rahm and Morikawa. I wanted to address your questions earlier when I talked about not trying to find the best player. For that, I think the best category we have is SG:Total. That one takes into account, for instance, that Bryson's advantage over the 10th ranked player off the tee is bigger than Oosthuizen's advantage over the 10th best putter. What I'm looking for is the best player who's game is balanced: that there isn't one aspect of the game in which he has a glaring liability. Morikawa, statistically, is one of the bottom 20% putters on Tour. GolfSpy_SHARK 1 Quote TS3 9.5°, Tensei Blue CBX T3 15°, Project X HZRDUS Black Epic Super Hybrid 18°, Aerotech Steel Fiber FC HYB S C722 21°, Ventus Blue 8S CBX Iron-Wood 25°, Project X HZRDUS Black 6.0 639 CB, Aldila NV 95 Graphite, 6–PW CBX 48° T22 54° and 60° EAS 4.0, Garsen G-Pro grip TP5x and Tour Response Full WITB with pictures Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnosil Posted August 20, 2021 Share Posted August 20, 2021 47 minutes ago, GolfSpy MPR said: I wanted to address your questions earlier when I talked about not trying to find the best player. For that, I think the best category we have is SG:Total. That one takes into account, for instance, that Bryson's advantage over the 10th ranked player off the tee is bigger than Oosthuizen's advantage over the 10th best putter. What I'm looking for is the best player who's game is balanced: that there isn't one aspect of the game in which he has a glaring liability. Morikawa, statistically, is one of the bottom 20% putters on Tour. I saw you post on Twitter so I knew about the SG:Total decision. As I look across the top players it seems like putting is category that that is the area that most players have as a weakness. Quote Driver: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven Fairway: TS3 15* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke Hybrids: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype 915H 24* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype Irons: TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite Wedge: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite Putter: Sacks Parente MC 3 Stripe Backup Putters: Milled Collection RSX 2, mFGP2, Futura 5W, TM-180 Member: MGS Hitsquad since 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GolfSpy MPR Posted August 20, 2021 Author Share Posted August 20, 2021 15 minutes ago, cnosil said: I saw you post on Twitter so I knew about the SG:Total decision. As I look across the top players it seems like putting is category that that is the area that most players have as a weakness. For some of the top players, yes. Which is yet further confirmation that "putt for dough" remains wrong. But there are players who are major outliers in other areas: Spieth | Tee: 121, App: 23, AtG: 7, Putt: 22 Ancer | Tee: 23, App: 27, AtG: 111, Putt: 35 Harmon | Tee: 62, App: 118, AtG: 21, Putt: 22 (this one shocked me; I would have guessed OtT as his weak point) Day | Tee: 19, App: 120, AtG: 19, Putt: 92 (I had no idea that Day's putting had slipped so much, or that he was a mediocre iron player) Niemann | Tee 12, App 47, AtG: 147, Putt: 17 (Niemann is shockingly good in three areas and really bad around the green) Berger | Tee: 39, App: 6, AtG: 149, Putt: 30 (I didn't realize that Niemann and Berger are the same golfer) Hoffman, Sungjae, Homa, and Kokrak are also done in chiefly by bad AtG numbers. McNealy is solid in everything but approach play. Spieth, ZJ, Cam Smith, Reed, Power Lebioda, Gooch, Grace, and Perez are whole list of guys who are 1) 100th or worse in driving and 2) 99 or better in the other three categories. cnosil 1 Quote TS3 9.5°, Tensei Blue CBX T3 15°, Project X HZRDUS Black Epic Super Hybrid 18°, Aerotech Steel Fiber FC HYB S C722 21°, Ventus Blue 8S CBX Iron-Wood 25°, Project X HZRDUS Black 6.0 639 CB, Aldila NV 95 Graphite, 6–PW CBX 48° T22 54° and 60° EAS 4.0, Garsen G-Pro grip TP5x and Tour Response Full WITB with pictures Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnosil Posted August 20, 2021 Share Posted August 20, 2021 7 minutes ago, GolfSpy MPR said: For some of the top players, yes. Which is yet further confirmation that "putt for dough" remains wrong. But there are players who are major outliers in other areas: Spieth | Tee: 121, App: 23, AtG: 7, Putt: 22 Ancer | Tee: 23, App: 27, AtG: 111, Putt: 35 Harmon | Tee: 62, App: 118, AtG: 21, Putt: 22 (this one shocked me; I would have guessed OtT as his weak point) Day | Tee: 19, App: 120, AtG: 19, Putt: 92 (I had no idea that Day's putting had slipped so much, or that he was a mediocre iron player) Niemann | Tee 12, App 47, AtG: 147, Putt: 17 (Niemann is shockingly good in three areas and really bad around the green) Berger | Tee: 39, App: 6, AtG: 149, Putt: 30 (I didn't realize that Niemann and Berger are the same golfer) Hoffman, Sungjae, Homa, and Kokrak are also done in chiefly by bad AtG numbers. McNealy is solid in everything but approach play. Spieth, ZJ, Cam Smith, Reed, Power Lebioda, Gooch, Grace, and Perez are whole list of guys who are 1) 100th or worse in driving and 2) 99 or better in the other three categories. Sounds like everyone has some Achilles heel in their game or even things that are considered average at because others excel in one particular area. Definitely an interesting comparison. Kenny B, GolfSpy MPR and GolfSpy_SHARK 3 Quote Driver: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven Fairway: TS3 15* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke Hybrids: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype 915H 24* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype Irons: TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite Wedge: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite Putter: Sacks Parente MC 3 Stripe Backup Putters: Milled Collection RSX 2, mFGP2, Futura 5W, TM-180 Member: MGS Hitsquad since 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny B Posted August 20, 2021 Share Posted August 20, 2021 9 minutes ago, cnosil said: Sounds like everyone has some Achilles heel in their game or even things that are considered average at because others excel in one particular area. Definitely an interesting comparison. Just like us mere mortals cnosil and GolfSpy_SHARK 1 1 Quote “We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LICC Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 Whoever said Cantlay is looking good today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShimmyCocoBop Posted December 27, 2021 Share Posted December 27, 2021 I missed Charlie Woods' name on the list... Quote After retiring from the PGA of America, I did some demo days and club fitting for TaylorMade, Callaway, Titleist, Ping, Cobra, Srixon and Mizuno. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LICC Posted April 21, 2022 Share Posted April 21, 2022 Add Scottie Scheffler to this list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.