Are my iron lengths wrong?

[rx1232]

Got fitted for new clubs and received them back in June. They were all lengthened by 1/2". Today i decided to compare their lengths, and from the 8i to the 7i, there just looks to be an odd increase in how long the club is (aka 7i is too long?) Pics attached of my 6i, 7i, 8i, and 9i.  Is this normal? Not even sure what I would ask my fitter to look at. Where would i measure the shaft length from/to?

 

Thanks for any thoughts.

[cnosil]

Doesn't look right;  looks like about a 1/4 inch extension in the photos with the 6 to 7 being less.  The question to ask your fitter is to see if each of these irons is 1/2" over standard length.  

 

[CarlH]

Doesn't look right.....almost looks like the grip for the 7 iron wasn't seated fully OR it's actually longer than it should be.  Only way to check would be to check them all against the standard lengths to see if each is 1/2 inch longer.  Were these cut 1/2 long or was an extension added to the existing irons?  In either case, it appears as if one or more of the irons weren't cut to the exact length (or the grip isn't on correctly)

[rx1232]

I regripped the 6 iron myself and stretched the grip down a lot when i did it, so it looks different than the others. It was my 2nd time regripping a club by myself.

 

The clubs were made to order by Club Champion. I'll just go back there and have them take a look. 

[edingc]

These are SIM MAX 2 irons, correct? Looks like TaylorMade doesn't go in 1/2" increments once you get past the 7 iron (spec sheet below):

[dlow206]

11 minutes ago, edingc said:

These are SIM MAX 2 irons, correct? Looks like TaylorMade doesn't go in 1/2" increments once you get past the 7 iron (spec sheet below):

Wow, 37.88". I don't know how TM came up with that number. It doesn't look like MOI balancing or anything like that. 

[edingc]

30 minutes ago, dlow206 said:

Wow, 37.88". I don't know how TM came up with that number. It doesn't look like MOI balancing or anything like that. 

I'd guess that's a distance thing, not sure if the extra 1/8" really adds that much, but I guess every bit counts when you're marketing the irons that way.

[rx1232]

That is interesting, looking at it now. The weird jump in my clubs is from the 8i to the 7i (to me) that looks longer than the rest though, and that still looks to be a 1/2" jump. Off the spec sheet, it's from the 7i to 6i where the length starts getting a little longer between clubs. 

Edited August 25, 2021 by rx1232

[rx1232]

I found the spec sheet that my clubs should have been made at. I dont have the same length jump as stock. 

[rx1232]

Update on this!

I went to the practice facility i take lessons at and they took a look at my iron lengths for me. The 5i-7i are all indeed 1/4" too long. Additionally, all the swing weights are around C9 and NOT D6 for the entire set. Ugh. 

 

I went to Club Champion immediately afterwards and explained it. They could not have been more dismissive about the whole situation and focused on absolving them of any wrong doing or error, and even going to the length of telling me that even if i wanted them to fix it, good luck getting the clubs back at any reasonable timeline cuz I would never be a priority. I thought about escalating up to the corporate level, but at this point, do I want this place touching my clubs anymore? No. 

In talking to the club builder at my practice facility, the overall cost to repair isnt so bad, so I'll just go that route. 

 

ANYWAY TL;DR don't trust Club Champion, at least the one in Bellevue, WA. 

 

Edited September 10, 2021 by rx1232

[pulledabill]

Id be curious if the fitter built them or TM did?  I doubt TM did to be honest if they are that much off. I'd take a grip off and see if if they added a shaft extension?  Did you remove a grip and did it have an extension?  If the fitter won't work with you, dig around and find out who your local TM rep a call and see what he says.  

[fixyurdivot]

3 hours ago, rx1232 said:

Update on this!

I went to the practice facility i take lessons at and they took a look at my iron lengths for me. The 5i-7i are all indeed 1/4" too long. Additionally, all the swing weights are around C9 and NOT D6 for the entire set. Ugh. 

 

I went to Club Champion immediately afterwards and explained it. They could not have been more dismissive about the whole situation and focused on absolving them of any wrong doing or error, and even going to the length of telling me that even if i wanted them to fix it, good luck getting the clubs back at any reasonable timeline cuz I would never be a priority. I thought about escalating up to the corporate level, but at this point, do I want this place touching my clubs anymore? No. 

In talking to the club builder at my practice facility, the overall cost to repair isnt so bad, so I'll just go that route. 

 

ANYWAY TL;DR don't trust Club Champion, at least the one in Bellevue, WA. 

 

That really surprises me about CC.  I know they are on the pricey side for club builds but heard nothing but glowing reports on their post build support and "make it right" promise.  Personally, I would speak with that stores GM and then move to corporate if necessary to get the warranty you paid for.  The quip about not getting any priority is complete BS. I'd be standing on someone's air hose until I got the right response.

I had my ZX5's built by Fairway Jockey and they provided 2nd day shipping both ways, and called me from the build bench once the clubs were there to discuss what they were measuring on swing weight and make sure we were square on the repair.  7 day turn around with shipping.  Don't let CC off the hook that easy.

[rx1232]

So the story is that apparently the clubs are direct OEM from TaylorMade, so CC stands by absolutely nothing here. Apparently they (taylormade) have a "reputation" for getting stuff wrong, according to the CC rep in the store. This is in contrast to what CC told me when I was getting fitted and ordering - i knew i was getting OEM and a stock shaft, but that CC would still do the construction hence why the clubs had to ship from TaylorMade to their Chicago office to get work done, and then to the Bellevue office to get delivered to me. If the clubs are delivered pre-made by OEM i'm not sure why it needed to be delivered to Chicago at all, as it's probably them wasting money to ship it to me. 

I havent really decided what i wanna do about CC. If they were to fix it, it's either going to be to send it to Chicago and that would be a long wait, or this rep in the Bellevue office tries to fix it, and i definitely don't want that guy touching anything of mine. I'm older and have less free time these days and would like to spend more of it playing golf and less of it being "right" against some corporation i have zero interest in going back to. If there's a better option (than just getting it fixed myself) i'm not sure what it is . 

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, rx1232 said:

Apparently they (taylormade) have a "reputation" for getting stuff wrong, according to the CC rep in the store.

I have bought numerous TM clubs over the years and have several friends who play exclusively TM and others I know who have bought them over the years. Plus 7 years on golf forums and that reputation the rep speaks of is something I have not seen or heard much of.

One of the questions I’ll ask is did the person who measured the length use the TM measurement method or how he normally measures them. TM has used a different way of measuring and if it doesn’t match how they do it then the lengths that were stated to be 1/4” off will be wrong.

As for swingweight and other speeds that’s not something unfamiliar across brands. Especially in lifts and lies as there’s build tolerances that are higher than most people think. Iirc there’s a rather large tolerance for swingweight too.

Some brands that have been known for being good at builds have had issues in the last year because of the demand 

[fixyurdivot]

4 hours ago, rx1232 said:

So the story is that apparently the clubs are direct OEM from TaylorMade, so CC stands by absolutely nothing here. Apparently they (taylormade) have a "reputation" for getting stuff wrong, according to the CC rep in the store. This is in contrast to what CC told me when I was getting fitted and ordering - i knew i was getting OEM and a stock shaft, but that CC would still do the construction hence why the clubs had to ship from TaylorMade to their Chicago office to get work done, and then to the Bellevue office to get delivered to me. If the clubs are delivered pre-made by OEM i'm not sure why it needed to be delivered to Chicago at all, as it's probably them wasting money to ship it to me. 

I havent really decided what i wanna do about CC. If they were to fix it, it's either going to be to send it to Chicago and that would be a long wait, or this rep in the Bellevue office tries to fix it, and i definitely don't want that guy touching anything of mine. I'm older and have less free time these days and would like to spend more of it playing golf and less of it being "right" against some corporation i have zero interest in going back to. If there's a better option (than just getting it fixed myself) i'm not sure what it is . 

Even if they were assembled at TM's facility, CC is who did the fitting and coordinated your order (if I'm following this yarn correctly?) so, to my mind, CC is who should be stepping up and making things right for their customer (you).  If that means they have to stand on TM's air hose, so be it.  CC is a major player in the golf industry and most assuredly has the ear of the OEM's.  Quite frankly, I would ask they fabricate a new set made to the correct specs and, when they arrive, you'll send the effed up set back using their prepaid shipper.  There's no reason you should be out a set of clubs while they get things made right.  This is noise level stuff for these companies, don't let them off the hook.

[ChitownM2]

Part of the entire justification for the premium prices CC charges is for getting the clubs exactly customized for you.  I've seen numerous people say that htey build all of the clubs themselves here in Chicago to make sure they are "exactly right" because the manufacturer's can't build to the same tolerances.  

 

I would definitely make them fix the clubs and would start with a charge back to your credit card if they even hint at not being able to get it done in a timely manner.  The big issue with getting clubs lately isn't the time to build them it's getting the parts and you already have them so there is no excuse why they can't turn them around in 2 weeks.

[Middler]

On 9/10/2021 at 3:05 PM, rx1232 said:

Update on this!

I went to the practice facility i take lessons at and they took a look at my iron lengths for me. The 5i-7i are all indeed 1/4" too long. Additionally, all the swing weights are around C9 and NOT D6 for the entire set. Ugh. 

 

I went to Club Champion immediately afterwards and explained it. They could not have been more dismissive about the whole situation and focused on absolving them of any wrong doing or error, and even going to the length of telling me that even if i wanted them to fix it, good luck getting the clubs back at any reasonable timeline cuz I would never be a priority. I thought about escalating up to the corporate level, but at this point, do I want this place touching my clubs anymore? No. 

In talking to the club builder at my practice facility, the overall cost to repair isnt so bad, so I'll just go that route. 

 

ANYWAY TL;DR don't trust Club Champion, at least the one in Bellevue, WA. 

 

I’m not a fan of Club Champion by any means, but I can’t imagine 1/4” would make any significant difference to any amateur. The difference in length between your 4 iron and your lob wedge is probably more than 4” - so you’re perfectly able to adjust to different lengths. Your metal woods are probably 8-9” longer than your wedges, and you adapt to that every time you play.

And some people choose and prefer one length irons. Other players choke up substantially (way more than 1/4”). Unless you’re really wrist-to-floor tall, or short, length isn’t an overriding factor - and a 1/4” variance even less so.

Swing weight might be a factor, but not precise length…

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, Middler said:

I’m not a fan of Club Champion by any means, but I can’t imagine 1/4” would make any significant difference to any amateur. The difference in length between your 4 iron and your lob wedge is probably more than 4” - so you’re perfectly able to adjust to different lengths. Your metal woods are probably 8-9” longer than your wedges, and you adapt to that every time you play.

And some people choose and prefer one length irons. Other players choke up substantially (way more than 1/4”). Unless you’re really wrist-to-floor tall, or short, length isn’t an overriding factor - and a 1/4” variance even less so.

Swing weight might be a factor, but not precise length…

1/4” changes the dynamic lie able by roughly 1*. This also has the tendency to get the club further away from a person when is over by that much. This can change the swing dynamics for a golfer and a bad swing sequence then becomes worse. 

If it’s shorter by that much it will get the club closer than where it should be for a golfer as well as effect the dynamic lie angle

edit: some of the guys more into club building can correct me if I’m wrong but the 1/4” also changes swing weight by 1.5 points. That could be enough to effect someone’s swing especially those who are sensitive to swing weights or overall weight and that sensitivity isn’t just for those who are low single digit ir better handicaps

[BostonSal]

I'm somewhat curious as well as to the effect of length on wedges.

I normally order all wedges at 35½" so as to be the same length,

so the the middle wedge is often ordered  ¼" long and the short wedge is often ordered ½" long,

more or less.  Effect on swingweight isn't even considered.

 

I also order them 1º flat unless they're Mizunos which are already set at 63º lie.

The actual effect of 1º lie could be debated, but it matters in my head, and the way golf works, that's important.

None of this is determined properly on a launch monitor, unfortunately.

I just make new stuff match old stuff with which I felt comfortable.

 

Which begs the question, things like ¼" length, 1º lie, a degree or two of bounce, a degree or two of loft....

to a handicap player like myself without a robotically repeatable swing ,  could it possibly ALL be  in my head?

Would it matter? Does anybody change ways of thinking  this late in the game?

 

[Middler]

1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

1/4” changes the dynamic lie able by roughly 1*. This also has the tendency to get the club further away from a person when is over by that much. This can change the swing dynamics for a golfer and a bad swing sequence then becomes worse. 

If it’s shorter by that much it will get the club closer than where it should be for a golfer as well as effect the dynamic lie angle

edit: some of the guys more into club building can correct me if I’m wrong but the 1/4” also changes swing weight by 1.5 points. That could be enough to effect someone’s swing especially those who are sensitive to swing weights or overall weight and that sensitivity isn’t just for those who are low single digit ir better handicaps

Less than 1 for a standard 7i based on the trig, about .65 degrees. Most amateurs wouldn’t notice 1/4” unless they can deliver the club face like a robot, but I know you’ll disagree. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, Middler said:

Less than 1 for a standard 7i based on the trig, about .65 degrees. Most amateurs wouldn’t notice 1/4” unless they can deliver the club face like a robot, but I know you’ll disagree. 

I will because I’m basing my thoughts on experience. I’ve seen it in the 6 years I did demo days at the local range which included 3 years doing them across the DC area for Cleveland/Srixon.

There’s a lot more that notice it in setup than you think and some that don’t see the difference in ball flight and how the miss can be worse. 
 

Ive worked with some fitters who use length to fit vice changing lie angle.

Again theres also the change in weight/swingweight and balance that more amateurs than you think can feel that difference and change their swing to make it work.

[BostonSal]

Iron length affects swingweight for sure, but I wonder if the importance of swingweight is what it used to be.

Many years ago, we played with a matched set of woods as well as a matched set of irons. 

Matching swingweights were one of the main advantages of pro line clubs.

 

Now, a typical bag is stuffed with clubs that were bought essentially one at a time. 

Maybe a few matching numbered irons, but that's about it.

I suppose that some professionally fitted gear involved going through the entire bag to match swingweights,

but I couldn't guess how many.

 

I couldn't even guess how many swingweights share space in my own bag.  Same with graphite shafts.  They're all R-flex but that's about it. Otherwise, it's a bouquet of colors.  At least I make the grips match.

Maybe the modern player is more of a hitter than a tuned in swinger, but that's only wild speculation.

I

[rx1232]

I've cooled down now from the initial discovery so not as mad anymore. I'm getting my 5-7 cut down a little bit and will proceed from there. I'm honestly hitting my 8i and up really well at around D0 so if anything is sus it's likely the initial fitting of me to a D6. 

I'm not sure what I'll do with the 5-7i going forward. My 8i is around 145y carry and my 4h is around 180 carry. The 5-7 in theory fill in the gaps but now I'm wondering why make this harder on myself and just go with some higher lofted hybrids or try out some one length cobra irons for that gap. 

All this to say I'm just gonna put club champion behind me and move on .  I didn't pay a premium for the clubs over what TM would have charged me, which makes this easier. (I checked before ordering).

I appreciate all the feedback here and the discussion!

 

[Middler]

21 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

I will because I’m basing my thoughts on experience. I’ve seen it in the 6 years I did demo days at the local range which included 3 years doing them across the DC area for Cleveland/Srixon.

There’s a lot more that notice it in setup than you think and some that don’t see the difference in ball flight and how the miss can be worse. 
 

Ive worked with some fitters who use length to fit vice changing lie angle.

Again theres also the change in weight/swingweight and balance that more amateurs than you think can feel that difference and change their swing to make it work.

Again I know you’ll disagree.

By setup I assume you mean at address. Almost no one can see a 0.65 degree lie angle at address on grass, if even on a mat. Very few players deliver the club at impact exactly as at address, on exactly the same plane, some are more upright or less at impact, or their hands can be higher, lower, inside, outside, etc. 

I contend the OP with a 25 HI will not see any difference in club performance due to a 1/4” change in club length.

OTOH I definitely agree anyone can feel the difference between C9 and D6.

Just trying to keep lessons and practice on the table, there’s way too much fixation by some here on what fitting alone can do. Fitting is NOT always the answer.

[RickyBobby_PR]

2 hours ago, Middler said:

By setup I assume you mean at address. Almost no one can see a 0.65 degree lie angle at address on grass, if even on a mat. Very few players deliver the club at impact exactly as at address, on exactly the same plane, some are more upright or less at impact, or their hands can be higher, lower, inside, outside, etc. 

I contend the OP with a 25 HI will not see any difference in club performance due to a 1/4” change in club length.

Yes at added and yes extra length of even 1/4” is noticeable for more golfers than you think, whether it’s longer or shorter. It’s why some fitters will look at contact point on the face at delivery and use the length to adjust than alter lie. Using length can get someone in a better setup position that allows them to have a chance at making a better swing.

A 25 hdcp who is has a playing light even a 1/4” off will see a change in contact point and ball flight. If someone is already standing further away from the ball than optimal and you give them 1/4” longer shaft they will be further away and their already flawed swing will give them even worse results same for someone who stands too close, shortening their shaft is going to make it worse.

This is based off in person experience and learning. 
 

Edit: @Golfspy_CG2when be was fit at TPI as a 20ish hdcp the fitter pondered having him go 1/4” shorter than standard in his irons. This was after getting him from +1 or 1.5 down to standard. Most people on here would say right off the bat a 6’7” golfer should play longer clubs. I’ve know Rob for 7 years now and while he’s taking some lessons getting in the right length has played a big role in his iron game. 

[rx1232]

Thought I was done updating here, but i did just get my clubs back.  Funny story...

After he (club builder) took off the grips, he realized that the grips weren't put on all the way. The shafts were all the correct length, the grips just didnt get seated on right. No shafts got cut, grips got put back on all the way, and the lengths look normal now. Also feels way better to hit with them.