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Wedge Sole Grinds--Specialty or Versatile?


BostonSal
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I have three Edison Forged wedges, although I only like and tend to use the "middle wedge"  at 53º

 

The Edison is designed with perimeter weighting, just like a numbered iron.

On full shots, it's demonstrably more forgiving than classic, blade type wedges.

The Edison 53 is nice and straight, just like a "game improvement" 8 or 9 iron or set-matching wedge..

However, the Edison offers no grind and bounce options within the offered lofts.

They use the old Reid Lockhard "versatile" sole design that was also adopted by SCOR wedges and the new incarnation Hogan company.

The philosophy seems to be that players encounter all sorts of lies, and that it's impossible to bag wedges for every one of them.

The goal at Reid Lockhart was to design a versatile sole that could be effective in virtually all situations.

 

This philosophy lays a bomb with me.  For finesse shots around the green,

I want to be able to lay the leading edge completely down without keeping the hands so far in front of the ball.

I want to be able to play the ball forward without delofting the club.

The Reid-Lockhart / SCOR / Hogan Equalizer / Edison Forged wedge lines are simply not made for this.

 

Thus, instead of the mental comfort of having a matching wedge set where all of them feel somewhat the same,

I'm now more inclined to go with a mix and match wedge set that looks like it came from an odd used club bin at a driving range pro shop.

Mizuno MP-52___47º [numbered iron matching ]

Edison Forged___53º

Titleist / Vokey SM7  either 58-04 or 60-04, but probably 58.

Lovett Tour Lob___greenside bunkers or tangled rough only--no fairway lies.

 

What's My Golf Spy's take on this?

Do most of us believe in versatile grinds or specialty grinds on our wedges?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Same answer as your last wedge question.  Play the wedges that enables you to  execute the shots you need and help you shoot lower scores 

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6 hours ago, BostonSal said:

I have three Edison Forged wedges, although I only like and tend to use the "middle wedge"  at 53º

 

The Edison is designed with perimeter weighting, just like a numbered iron.

On full shots, it's demonstrably more forgiving than classic, blade type wedges.

The Edison 53 is nice and straight, just like a "game improvement" 8 or 9 iron or set-matching wedge..

However, the Edison offers no grind and bounce options within the offered lofts.

They use the old Reid Lockhard "versatile" sole design that was also adopted by SCOR wedges and the new incarnation Hogan company.

The philosophy seems to be that players encounter all sorts of lies, and that it's impossible to bag wedges for every one of them.

The goal at Reid Lockhart was to design a versatile sole that could be effective in virtually all situations.

 

This philosophy lays a bomb with me.  For finesse shots around the green,

I want to be able to lay the leading edge completely down without keeping the hands so far in front of the ball.

I want to be able to play the ball forward without delofting the club.

The Reid-Lockhart / SCOR / Hogan Equalizer / Edison Forged wedge lines are simply not made for this.

 

Thus, instead of the mental comfort of having a matching wedge set where all of them feel somewhat the same,

I'm now more inclined to go with a mix and match wedge set that looks like it came from an odd used club bin at a driving range pro shop.

Mizuno MP-52___47º [numbered iron matching ]

Edison Forged___53º

Titleist / Vokey SM7  either 58-04 or 60-04, but probably 58.

Lovett Tour Lob___greenside bunkers or tangled rough only--no fairway lies.

 

What's My Golf Spy's take on this?

Do most of us believe in versatile grinds or specialty grinds on our wedges?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Im probably different than most in that I only carry 1 wedge and need to be able to use it to hit a variety of shots from a variety of lies but I prefer versatile.  That way, I know that its going to work in any situation.

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Putter: Mizuno Bettinardi A-02

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I played a while before understanding the import of wedges from the overview perspective.

Although it's always subject to tweaking,.my set generally includes ten [10] fairway clubs: 

     17º fairway wood

     21º fairway wood

     5-9 irons

     47, 53, 58º  wedges

The other four clubs--driver, driving iron, specialty sand wedge, and putter--are pretty much dedicated to one specific purpose, non-fairway related.

 

With an unforced, controlled full swing, I'll hit the 58 somewhere around 85 yards or so.

With a full but smooth swing, it will usually back up just a little bit, generally moving diagonally rather than perfectly straight back.

Out of light rough, the 85 will fly a little farther and release rather than back up.  That makes things a little tougher to figure out, but there's supposed to be a penalty for missing the fairway so that's OK.

 

So we'll stick to the fairway.  From longer fairway wood to the 58, I've got a club for every yardage that I can reach.  Once we get inside of  85 yards, however, there are no full swing shots left in the bag.   This is where the matrix system is supposed to kick in. Actually, further out--all the way back to the distance of my strongest wedge.  We're supposed to take several different loft wedges and match them against several backswing lengths, the latter based on clock positions, and create a matrix of yardages we can use hitting into the green. 

Fat chance.  I'm old. I could never keep track of all that.  So instead, it's the 58 for everything inside of 85 yards.  It's look and it's feel,  and it will work no better than how I'm looking and feeling that particular day.   It's not until I get really close that my no bounce preference comes in. 

The ball is not going to spin back with a soft shot.  I don't want it to release.  I want it to come down and stay there to whatever extent I can make it do that.  In a perfect world, I want nothing but net as the basketballers say when they hit a jump shot.  That means I must play it forward in my stance where any bounce at all will make my leading edge belly into the ball and give me an excruciating headache.

That's why the versatile sole is useless to me in my highest lofted turf wedge.  It's just not correct for the way I play. If I played differently, I'd surely have different preferences.   Revkey says that he likes bounce.  We all fall into different style groups, and some of those groups are bigger than others.

 

 

 

Edited by BostonSal

 

 

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26 minutes ago, BostonSal said:

So we'll stick to the fairway.  From longer fairway wood to the 58, I've got a club for every yardage that I can reach.  Once we get inside of  85 yards, however, there are no full swing shots left in the bag.   This is where the matrix system is supposed to kick in. Actually, further out--all the way back to the distance of my strongest wedge.  We're supposed to take several different loft wedges and match them against several backswing lengths, the latter based on clock positions, and create a matrix of yardages we can use hitting into the green. 

Fat chance.  I'm old. I could never keep track of all that.  So instead, it's the 58 for everything inside of 85 yards.  It's look and it's feel,  and it will work no better than how I'm looking and feeling that particular day.   It's not until I get really close that my no bounce preference comes in. 

That means I must play it forward in my stance where any bounce at all will make my leading edge belly into the ball and give me an excruciating headache.

That's why the versatile sole is useless to me in my highest lofted turf wedge.  It's just not correct for the way I play. If I played differently, I'd surely have different preferences.   Revkey says that he likes bounce.  We all fall into different style groups, and some of those groups are bigger than others.

The matrix system is an option; others play by feel and don't really have set distances.   

Your statement of being to old is crap in my opinion.  You can do whatever you choose to do and if you can't remember,  stick a piece of tape to your shaft and write the numbers down or create a cheat sheet and put it in your pocket.   Lee Westwood writes the carry distance for his irons on the iron head itself.   

Playing the ball forward is an option but many players struggle with ball back or ball forward.   You can use high bounce wedges;  you just have to improve your technique when striking the ball.  

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3 hours ago, cnosil said:

 You can use high bounce wedges;  you just have to improve your technique when striking the ball.  

Probably true, cnosil.

Or I can play low bounce wedges and let my technique comfortably stagnate where it is now!

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8 hours ago, BostonSal said:

Or I can play low bounce wedges and let my technique comfortably stagnate where it is now!

Exactly.   Be you and do what works for you.  

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Personally I am a fan of low bounce in the lob wedge and mid to higher bounce in the sand wedge. 
 

for me that is a vokey 54*s grind (10*) and a 60* L grind (4*). I use the 60 for most shots around the green but if they get longer or I want a little more roll I use my 54*. I have been doing this for years and it works really well for me

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TaylorMade SIM 19* Tensei Pro White

Srixon ZX5 4&5 iron Modus 120

Srixon ZX7 6-AW Modus 120

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2 hours ago, Granata13 said:

Personally I am a fan of low bounce in the lob wedge and mid to higher bounce in the sand wedge. 
 

for me that is a vokey 54*s grind (10*) and a 60* L grind (4*). I use the 60 for most shots around the green but if they get longer or I want a little more roll I use my 54*. I have been doing this for years and it works really well for me

I do the same thing with my 58 K grind (6* of bounce) and my 54 F Grind (14* of bounce). 

All Depends on whether you lean the shaft, open the face, change your stance, or use hands to manufacture shots or not. If not, then just find a wedge that fits your stock shot and work on hitting that from all different lies and conditions, along with chipping. 

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11 hours ago, WildcatGolf said:

I do the same thing with my 58 K grind (6* of bounce) and my 54 F Grind (14* of bounce). 

All Depends on whether you lean the shaft, open the face, change your stance, or use hands to manufacture shots or not. If not, then just find a wedge that fits your stock shot and work on hitting that from all different lies and conditions, along with chipping. 

I like to hit a variety of shots with my 60* but I was taught learn one wedge and learn it well, learn what you can do and what you can’t. Only on the shots you can’t hit do you switch to another wedge.  For me I can hit a lot of different shots with my 60 but there are a couple of low shots I like the 54 better for. Even out to 50-60 yards

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TaylorMade SIM 19* Tensei Pro White

Srixon ZX5 4&5 iron Modus 120

Srixon ZX7 6-AW Modus 120

Vokey SM8 54* 60* Modus 125 wedge

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I prefer wedges that offer some level of variation in the grinds and bounce.
 

Cleveland with the dot system and the Vokey wedges have been my go too because they offer several bounce and grind options in most wedges especially once you get to the sw and lw lofts.

Ive used low bounce and high bounce sets to allow for different shots around the green and different bunkers. This was based of wedge fittings with a previous coach and also vokey fit. This year I’ve gone with same grind in both sw and lw. I haven’t had to use them out if bunkers much this year and in the few practice shots I hit with them a few weeks back I’m still undecided if I like having the same grind and bounce in both

like @cnosilsays play what’s best for you and your swing, but also consider course conditions and type of sand in the bunkers. I also think it’s important to get fit for wedges either via an online fit tool or with a fitter where you can hit off grass and out of bunkers

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  • 3 weeks later...

Is bounce measured in different ways?

I was scared off by the published ten degree bounce on the Callaway Full Toe 64° flop wedge.

When I actually saw one being played, you can apparently get the leading edge down.

I haven't seen that, so I find it somewhat confusing.

If I get the chance to try one and I can hit my parachute ball with it, I'll pull the trigger.

 

 

 

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18 minutes ago, BostonSal said:

Is bounce measured in different ways?

I was scared off by the published ten degree bounce on the Callaway Full Toe 64° flop wedge.

When I actually saw one being played, you can apparently get the leading edge down.

I haven't seen that, so I find it somewhat confusing.

If I get the chance to try one and I can hit my parachute ball with it, I'll pull the trigger.

 

As far as I know only one way to measure bounce.   Bounce is also combined with grinds which also has an influence on how a wedge sits at address.

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20 hours ago, BostonSal said:

Is bounce measured in different ways?

I was scared off by the published ten degree bounce on the Callaway Full Toe 64° flop wedge.

When I actually saw one being played, you can apparently get the leading edge down.

I haven't seen that, so I find it somewhat confusing.

If I get the chance to try one and I can hit my parachute ball with it, I'll pull the trigger.

 

Ping has a concept called Effective Bounce which incorporate the width of sole from front edge to the back of the flange. A grind with heel relief will allow you to open the face while lot lifting the leading edge which is a common feature on some Callaway wedges. There is a standard way to measure bounce, but that can play very different depending on the width of sole and grind. 

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  • 3 months later...

Does anyone have any experience with the Callaway wedges, in particular the PM and Tiger grinds?

I am used to playing a pair of Cleveland CG 12 10* ounce with a DSG distinguished sole grind. 

What I love about them is their versatility.  I can lay them flat for flop shots or bunker shots.  I can play them for stock shots and 

I can hit low flight high spinning shots too.  I have tried the Jaws X grind 10* but it is to diggy on touch shots and low spiny shots.  I find the same 

issue with the RTX 4 one dot they tend to sit either open or dig to much on stock shots and way to much on low spinney shots.  

I didn't like the MP20 it felt to heavy for touch shots.  

The SM 8 s grind 10* was fine but some lies exposed the leading edge to much on flops.  I may try a C grind.

What I am asking about are the Taylormade MD3 Tiger grind and the PM grind.  Has anyone played either or better yet both of them?

Can you hit all three types of wedge shots with them?  

 

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Fairways: Callaway Rouge 15*  Accra FX 2.0-100F M3 pure  

Hybrid: Callaway Maverick 4&5 Hybrids Accra FX 2.0-100H60 M3 pure  

Irons:  PXG Gen 3 0311 P 6-P  Fujikura Pro 75 pure

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Chipper: Cleveland Smart Sole C 46*  Great for just off the greens in the rough 

Putter: Positive Putter's custom P2 (think Edel putter meets Heavy Putter)

Ball: Pro V1, Left Dot if I can get them Testing the Srixon Z-Star divide ball

All clubs have Winn Dri-Tac Wraps oversized

 

 

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14 hours ago, Mackdaddy9 said:

Does anyone have any experience with the Callaway wedges, in particular the PM and Tiger grinds?

I am used to playing a pair of Cleveland CG 12 10* ounce with a DSG distinguished sole grind. 

What I love about them is their versatility.  I can lay them flat for flop shots or bunker shots.  I can play them for stock shots and 

I can hit low flight high spinning shots too.  I have tried the Jaws X grind 10* but it is to diggy on touch shots and low spiny shots.  I find the same 

issue with the RTX 4 one dot they tend to sit either open or dig to much on stock shots and way to much on low spinney shots.  

I didn't like the MP20 it felt to heavy for touch shots.  

The SM 8 s grind 10* was fine but some lies exposed the leading edge to much on flops.  I may try a C grind.

What I am asking about are the Taylormade MD3 Tiger grind and the PM grind.  Has anyone played either or better yet both of them?

Can you hit all three types of wedge shots with them?  

 

I haven't tried the TM MG Tiger Grind.   I've been using the Callaway '19 PM Grind for 2.5 years... 54º and 60º.  Even though they are high bounce, the C-grind sole allows me to hit any shot I need, even off hard turf.  The 60º is my goto club for most shots around d the green; the 54º is for fluffy lies and longer bunker shots.  I don't care for the new Jaws clubs; I bought a new 60º PM Grind last summer to replace my 60º when it gets a little more worn out.

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We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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I've never fretted about grinds perhaps because I'm not quite good enough to know how different grinds come into play.  I have stock CBX2 which don't have grind options.

I think for me it's pretty simple.  50 (GW/AW) is a full shot club for me.  For SW and LW, I need heel relief as I will need to open up the face on occasion on bunkers and in the greenside rough.   Anything else, I wouldn't even know what I would use it for.  What would I do with toe relief?  I never play a shot where I close the clubface.

Low bounce?  I don't carry a low bounce wedge.  With tight lies, I would never play anything fancy.  I play the ball in further back in my stance taking the bounce away and try to make ball first contact.  

I suppose I would care more about the bounce/grinds if I had arsenal of wedge shots I can play/execute.  OR I could just be missing out on making wonderful shots because I don't have the right bounce/grinds.   

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I order the lowest bounce available at every loft, whatever the manufacturer happens to call that particular grind.

I go 4° on my sixty.

The Edison wedges that I mentioned in starting the thread are gone.

As with many recent purchases, I took a bath on them.

 

If something actually gets good playing time, it stays forever--it stays as if part of a collection--

but if I hate it early, I take my beating and sell it for whatever I can get,which is usually not much.

 

 

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1 hour ago, BostonSal said:

I order the lowest bounce available at every loft, whatever the manufacturer happens to call that particular grind.

I go 4° on my sixty.

The Edison wedges that I mentioned in starting the thread are gone.

As with many recent purchases, I took a bath on them.

 

If something actually gets good playing time, it stays forever--it stays as if part of a collection--

but if I hate it early, I take my beating and sell it for whatever I can get,which is usually not much.

I like to hit all kinds of wedge shots and have played as low as 6* of bounce , it makes flop shots easy and tight lies much easier for some shots.  We have Billy bunkers at my home course and the sand is very easy to go thru and dig into if you don't have enough bounce.   

I like a tight leading edge on my wedges and some heal relief.  The toe down relief for short bump and runs from just off the green is nice but I don't do it often enough to choose a C grind just for that.  The grooves to the edge are great on the PM and the high toe is cool but ugly too.  I just feel like the PM grind sits open when you just set it down.  I like a wedge to sit at the standard loft not fall open every time that is my only issue with the PM grind.   

Driver: Titleist TSR 3 10* Accra Tour Z TZ6 55 M3 pure 

Fairways: Callaway Rouge 15*  Accra FX 2.0-100F M3 pure  

Hybrid: Callaway Maverick 4&5 Hybrids Accra FX 2.0-100H60 M3 pure  

Irons:  PXG Gen 3 0311 P 6-P  Fujikura Pro 75 pure

Wedges: Cleveland CBX 2 50*, Taylormade MG 3 Tiger grind 56 bent to 54* & Renegar RxF  58*

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Putter: Positive Putter's custom P2 (think Edel putter meets Heavy Putter)

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All clubs have Winn Dri-Tac Wraps oversized

 

 

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  • 2 months later...

    I have tried most major companies wedges and many grinds.  I can play most of them well enough to score around the course.  Recently I have switched back to a set of wedges few people know.  Renegar Wedges, were reviewed here on this site many years ago and I was intrigued  enough to give them a try.  Back then I was still developing my wedge game and I liked them just fine until the next big thing came along and pushed them out of play.  I was a brand hoar in the early years of playing and was not skilled enough then to make full use of the Renegar wedges.  I played cheap tracks and had very little versatility in my wedge game. 

   Now I am Semi retired and play premium tracks with tight fairways and have developed a strong wedge game.  The things I love about these wedges are the lowered leading edge which makes sliding the club under the ball on a tight lie much easier.  I like that they are well designed for hitting a flop shot or bunker blast.  The bounce is very effective without being in the way.  Because the leading edge has that lower profile it slides under short and tight wedge shots and gets great spin even on cheeky little nippy chips, almost like a new wedge grooves.   

Driver: Titleist TSR 3 10* Accra Tour Z TZ6 55 M3 pure 

Fairways: Callaway Rouge 15*  Accra FX 2.0-100F M3 pure  

Hybrid: Callaway Maverick 4&5 Hybrids Accra FX 2.0-100H60 M3 pure  

Irons:  PXG Gen 3 0311 P 6-P  Fujikura Pro 75 pure

Wedges: Cleveland CBX 2 50*, Taylormade MG 3 Tiger grind 56 bent to 54* & Renegar RxF  58*

Chipper: Cleveland Smart Sole C 46*  Great for just off the greens in the rough 

Putter: Positive Putter's custom P2 (think Edel putter meets Heavy Putter)

Ball: Pro V1, Left Dot if I can get them Testing the Srixon Z-Star divide ball

All clubs have Winn Dri-Tac Wraps oversized

 

 

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