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New, old, difference, irons


sub80

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I recently found the wonderful world of Ebay and used golf clubs.  I mean, I always knew it was there, but not how useful, and inexpensive things could be (comparatively).  And I also found Tom Wishons book--"The search for the perfect club".  And I have been using MGS "Most wanted" and reviews for clubs for a while.  But in terms of new stuff.   So--Wishon says if you have a cavity back--it's a cavity back--that's about as much (depending on depth of cavity) forgiveness/help as you can get.  His quote is something like--"if forgiveness is an 8 ounce glass, then any cavity back gives you 7.5 ounces, and the last half ounce is where "improvements" are made.  And greater distance is mostly/materially down to stronger lofts.

I was scouting new used clubs, and using MGS reviews among others to evaluate what I might want.

And I noticed something.  Going back to like 2012 or so, when reviewing club tests etc., I don't think there are material differences between clubs in terms of either distance (except as attributable to delofting) or dispersion ("forgiveness").  There are between types of clubs (blade v cavity back e.g.) but not between different "ages" of clubs--at least in the relatively modern area.  I did not do an actual calculation--but looking at say 7 irons--carry is usually 155-to 165 (except for really strong lofts) and dispersion among the leaders remains pretty similar.

Am I right?  Or delusional?

Because if I am right, there is no reason to buy new clubs (unless you just want to) AND every reason to simply pick what looks good to your eye and play that.  For like the last 10 years at least.   And none of the technology means anything really.  Ohh, and decide whether you want stronger lofts or not--which can be a curse, because if you hit lower balls, a more lofted club might actually get you more carry, thus more usable distance, though less total distance.

 

Thoughts???

 

Callaway x460 proforce purple and gold, stiff

Sub 70 3 wood, 5 wood, hybrid,

New level irons--623 mforged 5-g

elevate 95 r shaft

Mizuno SW

Seemore putter

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4 minutes ago, sub80 said:

I recently found the wonderful world of Ebay and used golf clubs.  I mean, I always knew it was there, but not how useful, and inexpensive things could be (comparatively).  And I also found Tom Wishons book--"The search for the perfect club".  And I have been using MGS "Most wanted" and reviews for clubs for a while.  But in terms of new stuff.   So--Wishon says if you have a cavity back--it's a cavity back--that's about as much (depending on depth of cavity) forgiveness/help as you can get.  His quote is something like--"if forgiveness is an 8 ounce glass, then any cavity back gives you 7.5 ounces, and the last half ounce is where "improvements" are made.  And greater distance is mostly/materially down to stronger lofts.

I was scouting new used clubs, and using MGS reviews among others to evaluate what I might want.

And I noticed something.  Going back to like 2012 or so, when reviewing club tests etc., I don't think there are material differences between clubs in terms of either distance (except as attributable to delofting) or dispersion ("forgiveness").  There are between types of clubs (blade v cavity back e.g.) but not between different "ages" of clubs--at least in the relatively modern area.  I did not do an actual calculation--but looking at say 7 irons--carry is usually 155-to 165 (except for really strong lofts) and dispersion among the leaders remains pretty similar.

Am I right?  Or delusional?

Because if I am right, there is no reason to buy new clubs (unless you just want to) AND every reason to simply pick what looks good to your eye and play that.  For like the last 10 years at least.   And none of the technology means anything really.  Ohh, and decide whether you want stronger lofts or not--which can be a curse, because if you hit lower balls, a more lofted club might actually get you more carry, thus more usable distance, though less total distance.

 

Thoughts???

 

I'm all in with that theory.

Grooves do wear over years, however,

but if you have a little streak of outlaw in you,

and aren't afraid of the USGA Police

they can be gouged back to sharpness with a cutting tool.

You know it's time when trajectory lowers and rollout is more than you expect.

 

Louisville Golf Persimmon___2, 4, 5, 7-woods;    Epon AF-906___driving iron;   Titleist T100 5, 6, 7, 8, 9-irons; 

Titleist T100S___48°;     Edison 2.0___53º;     Titleist SM-9 (T)___58º;   Tad Moore Otto Hackbarth___putter;   

Titleist Pro V1x___ball

 

 

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You are right on with the faces-but often they show the faces, so you can get a good idea. 
I see you play the

MP 52s--some nice sets on ebay!

Callaway x460 proforce purple and gold, stiff

Sub 70 3 wood, 5 wood, hybrid,

New level irons--623 mforged 5-g

elevate 95 r shaft

Mizuno SW

Seemore putter

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18 hours ago, BostonSal said:

I'm all in with that theory.

Grooves do wear over years, however,

but if you have a little streak of outlaw in you,

and aren't afraid of the USGA Police

they can be gouged back to sharpness with a cutting tool.

You know it's time when trajectory lowers and rollout is more than you expect.

 

So the Youtuber SAS Golf talks about this all the time. Most clubs have been pushed up against the performance limits for years now, so there aren't massive advancements that can be made year to year. If you have a club from the last five-ish years, you're probably not going to miss all that much in performance. Rather, you're going to find particular trends based on what that year's focus was. So it's more about figuring out what trend and what tech best fits the needs of your swing.

My "distance" driver is a Taylormade R1 with a stiff shaft, and I can rip it just as far as I can most clubs from the past year (longest drive with it was 285 total). And my "hurting back, safe swing" driver is a Wilson Triton with a reg flex Aldilla Silver shaft, and it is incredibly forgiving for me. So for a total of $40, I have two clubs that fit my needs almost as well as two "modern" clubs that would cost me $750+ combined.

Rag tag bag, but it does the job. 

Taylormade R1 driver.

Ping G400 3 wood.

Cleveland Halo Launcher 3 hybrid.

Cleveland CBX launcher irons (5-PW). 

Assorted wedges (48, 52, 58).

Odyssey White Hot Pro 2.0 putter.

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On 9/6/2021 at 2:47 PM, sub80 said:

recently found the wonderful world of Ebay and used golf clubs. 

I never would have bought used clubs before, but I just picked up a set of used Ben Hogan Icons on Ebay, after running though their demo program,  trying to finally replace my original set of irons that I've used my entire adult life. 

I'm also in the demo program for Sub 70 :  639 CB and TAIII -  loving the TAIII   I want to get these but with the 60 day no questions asked program from Sub 70 I don't know if there is enough light left at night to get out to play after work so I may wait until next spring to order these and let the new for me Hogan Icons finish out this fall.  

I'm trying to decide on the black Sub 70 TAIII forged black ironsSub70_TAIII_Irons_black-1.jpg or the raw finish: Sub 70 TAIII forged raw irons Sub70_TAIII_irons-3.jpg

What I've noticed is that the mishits on the blades are actually better than my mishits on the cavity backs,  based on driving range sessions using my Swing Caddie sc300i

Edited by tucker_jct

 

:Sub70:  849D 10.5* UST PROFORCE v2 Black, 939X Hybrid 3H Aerotech SteelFiber Hybrid HLS 780

:taylormade-small: SIM2 MAX USA EDITION for winning the 2021 Ryder Cup contest sponsored by Taylormade and MGS  

:Hogan:  GS53Max 10.5* HZRDUS Smoke Black 5.5 ,  GS53 Fairway 4W HZRDUS Smoke Black 5.5,   VKTR+Hybrid 18* 

:titelist-small:  975D 9.5* ,  975F  3-w , 5-w 

:Sub70:   699 Pro Utility Black 19.5*

:Sub70:   TAIII  RAW 4-AW , True Temper Dynamic Gold 105 (R) 

:benhogan-small:  ICON Black  4- PW , with SteelFiber i80 (R) shafts

:benhogan-small:  Wedges Equalizer II  50*, 54*, 56*,  58*, 60*  , UST Recoil 780-F4/Stiff (Graphite)

:Sub70:  005 Wide Blade putter - with :garsen: Max 17"

:Sub70:  002 Mid Mallet putter - with :garsen:  Max 17"

:Arccos: Smoke Sensors (GEN 3+) ,  Link (GEN 2) 

old clubs

:wilson_staff_small:   Wilson Dyna-Power II  3-PW,  R90 Sand iron

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The TAIII's are just sick looking irons... definitely eye grabbers.  Personally, I love the black PVD finish but the OCD side of me would struggle as the finish starts getting scuffed/removed.  This would leave me with the tough decision to get the non-coated also absolutely cool looking heads.  Aren't "no lose" situations great? 

In fact this thread has just added another possibility to my list of 1st build project set of irons. Those raw TAIII's on MMT80 shafts 👍.

:ping-small: G410 Plus, 9 Degree Driver 

:ping-small: G400 SFT, 16 Degree 3w

:ping-small: G400 SFT, 19 Degree 5w

:srixon-small:  ZX5 Irons 4-AW 

:ping-small: Glide 2.0 56 Degree SW   (removed from double secret probation 😍)

:EVNROLL: ER5v Putter  (Evnroll ER5v Official Review)

:odyssey-small: AI-One Milled Seven T CH (Currently Under Product Test)

 

 

 

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Black. Sure, they wear. But if you strike them, they wear right in the center giving a confidence inspiring bullseye. 

WITB:

Driver:   :taylormade-small: SIM2 Max 12° - Accra TZ6 M4

FW Wood:     th.jpg.d6e2abdaeb04f007fd259c979f389de6.jpg Gen5 0311 7w  Fujikura Motore X F3

Irons:   :srixon-small: ZX7 PW-7i, ZX5 6i-5i

Wedges: :cleveland-small:  Zipcore 50°, 58°

Putter:   :taylormade-small: MySpider X

Cart: image.png.5aa5e9b8c0d6e08a2b12be76a06a07ca.pngOnewheel XR+

Ball: :srixon-small: Z-Star Diamond/ Z-Star XV

  1

 

 

 

 

 

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On 9/10/2021 at 10:32 PM, fixyurdivot said:

The TAIII's are just sick looking irons... definitely eye grabbers.  Personally, I love the black PVD finish but the OCD side of me would struggle as the finish starts getting scuffed/removed.  This would leave me with the tough decision to get the non-coated also absolutely cool looking heads.  Aren't "no lose" situations great? 

In fact this thread has just added another possibility to my list of 1st build project set of irons. Those raw TAIII's on MMT80 shafts 👍.

Sub 70 has those as an option

SmartSelect_20210912-204938_Chrome.jpg

 

:Sub70:  849D 10.5* UST PROFORCE v2 Black, 939X Hybrid 3H Aerotech SteelFiber Hybrid HLS 780

:taylormade-small: SIM2 MAX USA EDITION for winning the 2021 Ryder Cup contest sponsored by Taylormade and MGS  

:Hogan:  GS53Max 10.5* HZRDUS Smoke Black 5.5 ,  GS53 Fairway 4W HZRDUS Smoke Black 5.5,   VKTR+Hybrid 18* 

:titelist-small:  975D 9.5* ,  975F  3-w , 5-w 

:Sub70:   699 Pro Utility Black 19.5*

:Sub70:   TAIII  RAW 4-AW , True Temper Dynamic Gold 105 (R) 

:benhogan-small:  ICON Black  4- PW , with SteelFiber i80 (R) shafts

:benhogan-small:  Wedges Equalizer II  50*, 54*, 56*,  58*, 60*  , UST Recoil 780-F4/Stiff (Graphite)

:Sub70:  005 Wide Blade putter - with :garsen: Max 17"

:Sub70:  002 Mid Mallet putter - with :garsen:  Max 17"

:Arccos: Smoke Sensors (GEN 3+) ,  Link (GEN 2) 

old clubs

:wilson_staff_small:   Wilson Dyna-Power II  3-PW,  R90 Sand iron

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 I'm sending the Sub70 demos back, took some pictures six iron and nine irons in the demo program  639 CB in black,  TAIII in RAW,  639MB Plus in satin  

 

sub70-nine-back.jpg

sub70-nine-irons.jpg

sub70-six-back.jpg

sub70-six-irons.jpg

 

:Sub70:  849D 10.5* UST PROFORCE v2 Black, 939X Hybrid 3H Aerotech SteelFiber Hybrid HLS 780

:taylormade-small: SIM2 MAX USA EDITION for winning the 2021 Ryder Cup contest sponsored by Taylormade and MGS  

:Hogan:  GS53Max 10.5* HZRDUS Smoke Black 5.5 ,  GS53 Fairway 4W HZRDUS Smoke Black 5.5,   VKTR+Hybrid 18* 

:titelist-small:  975D 9.5* ,  975F  3-w , 5-w 

:Sub70:   699 Pro Utility Black 19.5*

:Sub70:   TAIII  RAW 4-AW , True Temper Dynamic Gold 105 (R) 

:benhogan-small:  ICON Black  4- PW , with SteelFiber i80 (R) shafts

:benhogan-small:  Wedges Equalizer II  50*, 54*, 56*,  58*, 60*  , UST Recoil 780-F4/Stiff (Graphite)

:Sub70:  005 Wide Blade putter - with :garsen: Max 17"

:Sub70:  002 Mid Mallet putter - with :garsen:  Max 17"

:Arccos: Smoke Sensors (GEN 3+) ,  Link (GEN 2) 

old clubs

:wilson_staff_small:   Wilson Dyna-Power II  3-PW,  R90 Sand iron

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25 minutes ago, tucker_jct said:

 I'm sending the Sub70 demos back, took some pictures six iron and nine irons in the demo program  639 CB in black,  TAIII in RAW,  639MB Plus in satin  

 

 

What did you think of them? 

WITB:

Driver:   :taylormade-small: SIM2 Max 12° - Accra TZ6 M4

FW Wood:     th.jpg.d6e2abdaeb04f007fd259c979f389de6.jpg Gen5 0311 7w  Fujikura Motore X F3

Irons:   :srixon-small: ZX7 PW-7i, ZX5 6i-5i

Wedges: :cleveland-small:  Zipcore 50°, 58°

Putter:   :taylormade-small: MySpider X

Cart: image.png.5aa5e9b8c0d6e08a2b12be76a06a07ca.pngOnewheel XR+

Ball: :srixon-small: Z-Star Diamond/ Z-Star XV

  1

 

 

 

 

 

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I hit the 639CB and the TAIII very well.   I believe i will be ordering the TAIII unless the team at sub 70 fits me into the 639cb and shows a big improvement in distance/forgiveness 

 

:Sub70:  849D 10.5* UST PROFORCE v2 Black, 939X Hybrid 3H Aerotech SteelFiber Hybrid HLS 780

:taylormade-small: SIM2 MAX USA EDITION for winning the 2021 Ryder Cup contest sponsored by Taylormade and MGS  

:Hogan:  GS53Max 10.5* HZRDUS Smoke Black 5.5 ,  GS53 Fairway 4W HZRDUS Smoke Black 5.5,   VKTR+Hybrid 18* 

:titelist-small:  975D 9.5* ,  975F  3-w , 5-w 

:Sub70:   699 Pro Utility Black 19.5*

:Sub70:   TAIII  RAW 4-AW , True Temper Dynamic Gold 105 (R) 

:benhogan-small:  ICON Black  4- PW , with SteelFiber i80 (R) shafts

:benhogan-small:  Wedges Equalizer II  50*, 54*, 56*,  58*, 60*  , UST Recoil 780-F4/Stiff (Graphite)

:Sub70:  005 Wide Blade putter - with :garsen: Max 17"

:Sub70:  002 Mid Mallet putter - with :garsen:  Max 17"

:Arccos: Smoke Sensors (GEN 3+) ,  Link (GEN 2) 

old clubs

:wilson_staff_small:   Wilson Dyna-Power II  3-PW,  R90 Sand iron

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On 9/7/2021 at 4:37 PM, Riverboat said:

I see a lot of talk about increases in distance being totally due to strengthened lofts, but I think those who focus on this miss a big point... while the lofts are stronger, the comparable shafts are still shorter in length than those lower numbered clubs... and most people are more accurate with shorter shafts. The 8 iron may have the loft of previous generations' 7 or even 6, but for most companies, it's still the shaft length of a traditional 8 iron, resulting in more accuracy for most players. Combine that with changes in weighting that result in comparable descent angles to previous generations' 8 iron (or whatever club you are hitting) and you have a far more effective attack weapon for many if not most, players. Irons have made big strides in recent years, I would say bigger than any other category, so don't be so quick to dismiss the advantages as simply a product of stronger lofts = more distance. 

 

 

Only true if you compare modern club lengths with the different lofts.  If you look at equipment history, not so much.

In the 50s and 60s, a 32* or 33* club would be 37" long.  Many modern sets, the 32*/33* club is 37" long, or longer in some cases. 

Driver: TM Original One 11.5* set to 11*, Aldila NV75 X, 43.5" -or- SpeedZone, HZRDUS Black 75 6.5, 43.5"
3w:  Cobra King LTD, RIP Beta 90, 42" -or- Stage 2 Tour, NV105 X, 42.5"
2h or 3h:  TaylorMade Stage 2 Tour, Aldila NV105 S -or- RIP Alpha 105 S
Irons:  3-PW Mizuno MP37, Recoil Proto 125 F4 (reshaft in progress, slowly); 1i & 3-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S; 2-PW Golden Ram TW282, RIP Tour 115 R
GW: Dynacraft Dual Milled CNC 52*, Steelfiber 125 S; Scratch 8620 DS 53*, Steelfiber 125 S
SW:  Ram TG-898 56*, DGX ss2x; Ram Tom Watson 55*, DGX ss2x; Wilson Staff PMP 58*, DGS; PM Grind 19 58*, stock shaft
Putter:  Snake Eyes Viper Tour Sv1, 34"; Ping Scottsdale TR Craz-E, 35"; Cleveland Huntington Beach 1, 35"
Ball:  Wilson Staff Duo Professional, Bridgestone Tour B-RXS, Callaway Chrome Soft

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@sub80

You are correct about irons not really improving much the last decade. I think the biggest trend I've seen is increasing MOI numbers but at the cost of a higher CG. Ping, Wilson, Mizuno, and others have drifted this way. Titleist, Cobra, and others have gravitated towards lower CGs which naturally results in lower MOI. Some manufacturers like Callaway, are a mixed bag in terms of iron design. Hollow head designs have been popularized the last few years but I don't see any definitive proof that they actually perform better. Hollow-head designs allow for thinner faces as they can build support structures or use foam to support thinner faces. Even then, the CT limitation still comes into effect if they are trying to make a hotter face. 

I also agree with @Riverboat about stronger lofts allowing shorter shafts. I don't think this is really a improvement in technology as much as it just allows for another fitting option. The issue with stronger lofts on shorter shafts can become a swing speed and spin issue for fitters. However, like all things in golf their are trade-offs but I haven't seen any iron technology in the last decade that eliminates any trade-offs in club performance. Stronger lofts and shorter shafts can also be found on single length irons. Those have their own host of issues that technology has yet to resolve. Wishon tried to fix this with a set of heads that had variably hotter faces through the set to counteract some of the spin and distance issues on the longer irons. However, I don't think these heads really gained much traction in the market. If they truly made a huge difference, they would still be around. Wishon replaced them with the EQ1-NX set that uses more progressive CG placement throughout the set. However, none of these things are really a "new technology". 

Overall, I don't think there have been any real improvements in technology in the end result. There have been some improvements in manufacturing with all the hollow body designs but no real real world improvements at the end of the day. What we continue to have is the ever changing recipe of herbs and spices in iron design. Ultimately, every manufacturer continues to make several lines of irons because there isn't any iron that fits everyone the best. Iron design can't really go anywhere as long as CT/COR rule limitations are in place and tungsten remains the densest metal that can be manufactured with. 

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15 minutes ago, NRJyzr said:

 

Only true if you compare modern club lengths with the different lofts.  If you look at equipment history, not so much.

In the 50s and 60s, a 32* or 33* club would be 37" long.  Many modern sets, the 32*/33* club is 37" long, or longer in some cases. 

Being old enough to have played with a 32º 5-iron, I am keenly aware of how loft / length / club number correlations have substantially changed.

For some reason, many younger players go ballistic if one even brings up the subject.  Not sure why, but I just got here and have already been flamed for discussing the Hogan experiment with club numbers.  

 

So my take is yes, Riverview brings up interesting [to me] points, but I'm not going to argue with anybody about it because for reasons beyond my grasp, it seems to be a sore subject.

 

 

1 minute ago, BostonSal said:

 

 

Edited by BostonSal

Louisville Golf Persimmon___2, 4, 5, 7-woods;    Epon AF-906___driving iron;   Titleist T100 5, 6, 7, 8, 9-irons; 

Titleist T100S___48°;     Edison 2.0___53º;     Titleist SM-9 (T)___58º;   Tad Moore Otto Hackbarth___putter;   

Titleist Pro V1x___ball

 

 

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48 minutes ago, BostonSal said:

Being old enough to have played with a 32º 5-iron, I am keenly aware of how loft / length / club number correlations have substantially changed.

For some reason, many younger players go ballistic if one even brings up the subject.  Not sure why, but I just got here and have already been flamed for discussing the Hogan experiment with club numbers.  

 

So my take is yes, Riverview brings up interesting [to me] points, but I'm not going to argue with anybody about it because for reasons beyond my grasp, it seems to be a sore subject.


It's not a popular subject.  A great many golfers think there's something intrinsic about the club numbers; they don't realize they're essentially meaningless.
 

Driver: TM Original One 11.5* set to 11*, Aldila NV75 X, 43.5" -or- SpeedZone, HZRDUS Black 75 6.5, 43.5"
3w:  Cobra King LTD, RIP Beta 90, 42" -or- Stage 2 Tour, NV105 X, 42.5"
2h or 3h:  TaylorMade Stage 2 Tour, Aldila NV105 S -or- RIP Alpha 105 S
Irons:  3-PW Mizuno MP37, Recoil Proto 125 F4 (reshaft in progress, slowly); 1i & 3-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S; 2-PW Golden Ram TW282, RIP Tour 115 R
GW: Dynacraft Dual Milled CNC 52*, Steelfiber 125 S; Scratch 8620 DS 53*, Steelfiber 125 S
SW:  Ram TG-898 56*, DGX ss2x; Ram Tom Watson 55*, DGX ss2x; Wilson Staff PMP 58*, DGS; PM Grind 19 58*, stock shaft
Putter:  Snake Eyes Viper Tour Sv1, 34"; Ping Scottsdale TR Craz-E, 35"; Cleveland Huntington Beach 1, 35"
Ball:  Wilson Staff Duo Professional, Bridgestone Tour B-RXS, Callaway Chrome Soft

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... Quite simply your clubs should help you achieve the best combination of accuracy and distance. Sub categories depending on ability is trajectory and spin. I played some P790's in the soft Midwest conditions and they were a good fit for my game. Playing on hard, fast winter greens in the desert the P790's did not produce enough spin to hold greens or at least stop with consistent distance form my ball mark and I had to switch to P760's. If you struggle to get the ball in the air and strike the ball all over the face, the only thing that matters is producing decent shots on your mishits with more weight low and as much perimeter weighting as possible.

... Most golfers fall in-between those two and finding the right combination that compliments your swing is the goal. If you are skilled enough and playing 2021 hollow headed irons that don't produce enough spin for optimum results, you will be much better off with some older irons like the P760's. 

... I would add there are some technical improvements that make a noticeable difference compared to older models like slots in the sole improving thin strikes. 

Driver:     :taylormade-small:  Qi10 Max 10.5* ... Graphite Design AD-IZr
Fairway:  :cobra-small: Aerojet 3/5 ... Kai'li Blue 60R
Hybrids:  :ping-small:      430 Hybrid 22*... Steelfiber 780Hy 
                  :taylormade-small:  DHy #4 ... Diamana LTD 65r 
Irons:       :titleist-small:         '23 T200 5-Pw ... Steelfiber i95r
Wedges:  :taylormade-small: Vokey 50*/54*/58* ... Steelfiber i95r
Putter:     :EVNROLL:  Custom EV 5.1  33" 
Ball:           Maxfli     Maxfli Tour

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Trying P770, JPX 921 Tour, and T100 demo 7-irons at the Whirlaway, where I go for breakfast, not for the pro shop, I couldn't tell when I was switching models.

Perhaps if I had a +cap, I could, but I clearly don't and they all seemed remarkably OK to me.  Didn't think I would have screwed up too badly buying any of them.

 

 

Louisville Golf Persimmon___2, 4, 5, 7-woods;    Epon AF-906___driving iron;   Titleist T100 5, 6, 7, 8, 9-irons; 

Titleist T100S___48°;     Edison 2.0___53º;     Titleist SM-9 (T)___58º;   Tad Moore Otto Hackbarth___putter;   

Titleist Pro V1x___ball

 

 

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I think the biggest strides are just that there are a ton of different iron "types" out there now. Particularly if you have a specific need (to fix a club delivery issue) or a specific look or feel, there are a dizzying amount of options. But I can take my 1970s Sam Snead blades out and if I hit them in the center they have a very consistent distance and dispersion to them. The differences in say the Mizuno MP 20 MMC vs the Mizuno MP 57 would be minimal in so far as I don't know that there are many players who would have an appreciable difference in their results with one vs the other. My biggest mistake was selling my old Taylormade RAC LT irons, I loved them but was tricked into thinking I needed "more forgiveness" when, in reality, I just needed two lessons

I tested a ton of irons and did not see a significant difference in the DTCs (Sub 70, Ben Hogan, New Level) vs the major OEMs (Cobra, Titleist, Mizuno) in terms of build quality or consistency. My reasoning for moving on was I had improved my ballstriking to where super game improvement irons were hurting me being "too hot" in terms of a center strike could go nuclear every 4th or 5th shot and the lack of spin made it hard to hold some greens. 

:mizuno-small: STZ 230 9.5* "Std" setting ➖ :mizuno-small: STZ 230 Hybrid 18* "lower" setting➖ :mizuno-small: Pro Fli-Hi 21.5* ➖ MALTBY TS1-IM 5-GW ➖ :cleveland-small: Smart Sole 58* ➖ L.A.B. Directed Force 2.1 
Maxfli Tour X Official Review -- https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/63068-testers-announced-maxfli-tour-x-golf-balls-with-max-align-technology/?do=findComment&comment=1021832

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On 9/6/2021 at 2:47 PM, sub80 said:

I recently found the wonderful world of Ebay and used golf clubs.  I mean, I always knew it was there, but not how useful, and inexpensive things could be (comparatively).  And I also found Tom Wishons book--"The search for the perfect club".  And I have been using MGS "Most wanted" and reviews for clubs for a while.  But in terms of new stuff.   So--Wishon says if you have a cavity back--it's a cavity back--that's about as much (depending on depth of cavity) forgiveness/help as you can get.  His quote is something like--"if forgiveness is an 8 ounce glass, then any cavity back gives you 7.5 ounces, and the last half ounce is where "improvements" are made.  And greater distance is mostly/materially down to stronger lofts.

I was scouting new used clubs, and using MGS reviews among others to evaluate what I might want.

And I noticed something.  Going back to like 2012 or so, when reviewing club tests etc., I don't think there are material differences between clubs in terms of either distance (except as attributable to delofting) or dispersion ("forgiveness").  There are between types of clubs (blade v cavity back e.g.) but not between different "ages" of clubs--at least in the relatively modern area.  I did not do an actual calculation--but looking at say 7 irons--carry is usually 155-to 165 (except for really strong lofts) and dispersion among the leaders remains pretty similar.

Am I right?  Or delusional?

Because if I am right, there is no reason to buy new clubs (unless you just want to) AND every reason to simply pick what looks good to your eye and play that.  For like the last 10 years at least.   And none of the technology means anything really.  Ohh, and decide whether you want stronger lofts or not--which can be a curse, because if you hit lower balls, a more lofted club might actually get you more carry, thus more usable distance, though less total distance.

 

Thoughts???

 

100% AGREE WITH YOU.

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1 hour ago, vandyland said:

I think the biggest strides are just that there are a ton of different iron "types" out there now. Particularly if you have a specific need (to fix a club delivery issue) or a specific look or feel, there are a dizzying amount of options. But I can take my 1970s Sam Snead blades out and if I hit them in the center they have a very consistent distance and dispersion to them. The differences in say the Mizuno MP 20 MMC vs the Mizuno MP 57 would be minimal in so far as I don't know that there are many players who would have an appreciable difference in their results with one vs the other. My biggest mistake was selling my old Taylormade RAC LT irons, I loved them but was tricked into thinking I needed "more forgiveness" when, in reality, I just needed two lessons

I tested a ton of irons and did not see a significant difference in the DTCs (Sub 70, Ben Hogan, New Level) vs the major OEMs (Cobra, Titleist, Mizuno) in terms of build quality or consistency. My reasoning for moving on was I had improved my ballstriking to where super game improvement irons were hurting me being "too hot" in terms of a center strike could go nuclear every 4th or 5th shot and the lack of spin made it hard to hold some greens. 

The RAC LT irons were one of the best looking irons at address that I remember ever hitting. Too bad they don't conform to the new groove rules but dang, they were sweet. 

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On 9/6/2021 at 3:47 PM, sub80 said:

I recently found the wonderful world of Ebay and used golf clubs.  I mean, I always knew it was there, but not how useful, and inexpensive things could be (comparatively).  And I also found Tom Wishons book--"The search for the perfect club".  And I have been using MGS "Most wanted" and reviews for clubs for a while.  But in terms of new stuff.   So--Wishon says if you have a cavity back--it's a cavity back--that's about as much (depending on depth of cavity) forgiveness/help as you can get.  His quote is something like--"if forgiveness is an 8 ounce glass, then any cavity back gives you 7.5 ounces, and the last half ounce is where "improvements" are made.  And greater distance is mostly/materially down to stronger lofts.

I was scouting new used clubs, and using MGS reviews among others to evaluate what I might want.

And I noticed something.  Going back to like 2012 or so, when reviewing club tests etc., I don't think there are material differences between clubs in terms of either distance (except as attributable to delofting) or dispersion ("forgiveness").  There are between types of clubs (blade v cavity back e.g.) but not between different "ages" of clubs--at least in the relatively modern area.  I did not do an actual calculation--but looking at say 7 irons--carry is usually 155-to 165 (except for really strong lofts) and dispersion among the leaders remains pretty similar.

Am I right?  Or delusional?

Because if I am right, there is no reason to buy new clubs (unless you just want to) AND every reason to simply pick what looks good to your eye and play that.  For like the last 10 years at least.   And none of the technology means anything really.  Ohh, and decide whether you want stronger lofts or not--which can be a curse, because if you hit lower balls, a more lofted club might actually get you more carry, thus more usable distance, though less total distance.

 

Thoughts???

 

Im with you 100%.  I think that pretty much all of the, "new tech" is little more than marketing hype.  I play a 10 year old set of King Cobra irons, as well as a 20 year old set of Mizuno blades and to me, they play just like any other iron Ive ever played.

I dont play in tournaments, so I dont really care that the grooves arent legal.

"I suppose its better to be a master of 7 than to be vaguely familiar with 14." - Chick Evans

Whats in my Sun Mountain 2.5+ stand bag?

Woods: Tommy Armour Atomic 10.5* 

Hybrid: Mizuno MP Fli-Hi 3H

Irons: Mizuno T-Zoid True 5, 7 and 9-irons

Wedge: Mizuno S18 54* and Top Flite chipper

Putter: Mizuno Bettinardi A-02

Ball: Maxfli Tour X

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I agree with many that there is something here relative to used, old, performance.  Old clubs were DCI962's/S300s (still have them).  Was fitted about 1.5 yrs ago (after sporadic golf at best over 23 years) into Callaway APEX forged CF19's, Aerotech Steelfiber i80 shafts.  Did I see a difference?  Sure.  But after a year+, on a whim, picked up a used (inexpensive) good condition set of MP-14s, S300, std lie/loft on eBay.  Better feel at impact, predictable and consistent dist/launch.  Had to adjust to the loft difference (e.g. 50* PW).  But no degradation in index over about 15 rounds - more consistent scoring.  Don't mind at all being "told" when I'm off center on a strike.  And the club (to me) just looks easier to hit at address. Laughed at by some with the latest tech when I pulled them out ... sure .. but thick skin prevailed.  Was it a pre-mature fitting after time away from the game?  Maybe (likely).  Watching for some MP-32's for a possible next test.

"Tempus Fugit"

image.png.bd059c22cb4050f8745b4220a721d428.png TSi2 9*, 15*, 21*, 24*H

image.jpeg.3f8d53cfb4a8695176ed565d8adc45f6.jpeg Pro 223, 6-GW

image.png.a363921e369c312272cc51d3cb30b903.png 54/10/S, 58/10/S (or 60/08/M)

 image.png.31fa724e472f35ff773c6121993189d8.png Several in rotation: Phantom X5.5, '98 "oil can" classic NewportSpecial Select Squareback 2

image.jpeg

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3 hours ago, ZenGolfer said:

I think that pretty much all of the, "new tech" is little more than marketing hype. 

 

... I always find this viewpoint interesting. Since our economy is based on Capitalism, every product made could be considered marketing hype. Every *NEW* refrigerator, washer/dryer, shirt, shorts, car or thousands of other products are little more than marketing. Much like "Natural" on any food product means absolutely nothing other than a marketing ploy, reading/watching and comprehending what any OEM is marketing is up to the consumer. I absolutely 🥰  my Cobra King Tour irons and think they are the best irons I have played, but reading the Cobra website: 

"The MIM process is an evolution in manufacturing that is used to create the most precise and intricate shapes. The result is our purest, and softest feeling players iron that performs and looks unlike any other."

... What did Cobra really just say? MIM is an "evolution in manufacturing" soooo isn't just about every new product? MIM makes shapes that are precise and intricate compared to others but no mention of those shapes being better for your golf game or help you hit a better golf shot. "Purest and softest feeling players iron" that again could mean next to nothing considering they may be 5% softer than comparable irons which may or may not even be noticeable to the vast majority that play golf. And then "performs and looks unlike any other" which could pretty much be said about every iron on the market. So I don't see any marketing "hype" at all... just good old fashioned marketing. Nowhere on the website does it say I will hit better shots or score better with MIM irons, yet everything they do say appeals to me as a single digit player. I like marketing and appreciate all the effort that goes into producing Metal Injection Molding as well as precise and intricate shapes with the purest and softer players irons. But I also know other than a little more confidence that they instill by their look, feel and shape, I will probably not score any differently than I did with my T100S irons, which I also loved. Confidence can be the difference between a good round and a great round but that comes from the player, not the clubs even though those clubs are what gives me that confidence. 

Driver:     :taylormade-small:  Qi10 Max 10.5* ... Graphite Design AD-IZr
Fairway:  :cobra-small: Aerojet 3/5 ... Kai'li Blue 60R
Hybrids:  :ping-small:      430 Hybrid 22*... Steelfiber 780Hy 
                  :taylormade-small:  DHy #4 ... Diamana LTD 65r 
Irons:       :titleist-small:         '23 T200 5-Pw ... Steelfiber i95r
Wedges:  :taylormade-small: Vokey 50*/54*/58* ... Steelfiber i95r
Putter:     :EVNROLL:  Custom EV 5.1  33" 
Ball:           Maxfli     Maxfli Tour

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5 hours ago, ZenGolfer said:

I'm with you 100%.  I think that pretty much all of the, "new tech" is little more than marketing hype.  I play a 10 year old set of King Cobra irons, as well as a 20 year old set of Mizuno blades and to me, they play just like any other iron Ive ever played.

I don't play in tournaments, so I don't really care that the grooves aren't legal.

I think that the marketers do their job and the engineers do theirs.   

The human is the most variable thing in the golf swing, so in all likelihood, the engineered product, this year's or that from ten years ago, is capable of better shots than the player.   The MP-52s that I bought in, if memory serves, 2009, are still capable of better shots than the player swinging them.  If the current model is minutely superior from an engineering standpoint, is mine the swing that will confirm that?  Hardly.

I have clubs in my bag dating from a then unique face-balanced putter from 1978

to a smaller volume head, higher lofted driver that I bought this year.

I also have a newer five wood, set at 18º, as my long fairway wood,

and a late nineties five wood, set at 21º, as my lofted fairway wood.

The newer five wood clearly flies longer and the older one easily leaps tall trees when I load up trying to reach a short par 5

and put my drive on an adjacent fairway.

I could be 100% wrong, not being the typical internet golf forum member,

but I basically buy new gear when I've got a jones for something new.

It's almost NEVER to fill a real need.   Almost  never.

 

As for ZenGolfers non-conforming grooves, my cart nag is designed to hold fifteen clubs.

 

Edited by BostonSal

Louisville Golf Persimmon___2, 4, 5, 7-woods;    Epon AF-906___driving iron;   Titleist T100 5, 6, 7, 8, 9-irons; 

Titleist T100S___48°;     Edison 2.0___53º;     Titleist SM-9 (T)___58º;   Tad Moore Otto Hackbarth___putter;   

Titleist Pro V1x___ball

 

 

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I agree there’s a lot of marketing hype with all clubs, not just irons. Every 10 years will usually be more than enough to replace clubs. I hit Mizuno JPX921 Forged vs my JPX900 Forged and there was no difference in launch monitor length, trajectory or dispersion, if anything I liked the feel of my JPX900F’s better than the new version (1025 Boron vs Chromoly 4120) - and I wanted to like the 921’s better! Lessons and practice are terribly underrepresented on golf forums IMO, that’s where 90%+ of us can improve the most…

  • Titleist TSR2 11° HZRDUS Red CB 50 6.0 w Lamkin UTx Midsize
  • Titleist TSR2 16.5º HZRDUS Red 60 CB 6.0 & TSR2 21º HZRDUS Black 4G 70 6.0 w Lamkin UTx Midsize
  • Mizuno JPX923 HMP 4-GW, T22 54.12WS, T22 58.04DC w Lamkin ST+2 Hybrid Midsize
  • Evnroll EV5.3
  • Maxfli Tour & ProV1
  • Ping Pioneer - MGI Zip Navigator AT
  • Payntr X 002 LE, Ecco Biom C4, FJ DryJoys
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21 hours ago, chisag said:

 

... I always find this viewpoint interesting. Since our economy is based on Capitalism, every product made could be considered marketing hype. Every *NEW* refrigerator, washer/dryer, shirt, shorts, car or thousands of other products are little more than marketing. Much like "Natural" on any food product means absolutely nothing other than a marketing ploy, reading/watching and comprehending what any OEM is marketing is up to the consumer. I absolutely 🥰  my Cobra King Tour irons and think they are the best irons I have played, but reading the Cobra website: 

"The MIM process is an evolution in manufacturing that is used to create the most precise and intricate shapes. The result is our purest, and softest feeling players iron that performs and looks unlike any other."

... What did Cobra really just say? MIM is an "evolution in manufacturing" soooo isn't just about every new product? MIM makes shapes that are precise and intricate compared to others but no mention of those shapes being better for your golf game or help you hit a better golf shot. "Purest and softest feeling players iron" that again could mean next to nothing considering they may be 5% softer than comparable irons which may or may not even be noticeable to the vast majority that play golf. And then "performs and looks unlike any other" which could pretty much be said about every iron on the market. So I don't see any marketing "hype" at all... just good old fashioned marketing. Nowhere on the website does it say I will hit better shots or score better with MIM irons, yet everything they do say appeals to me as a single digit player. I like marketing and appreciate all the effort that goes into producing Metal Injection Molding as well as precise and intricate shapes with the purest and softer players irons. But I also know other than a little more confidence that they instill by their look, feel and shape, I will probably not score any differently than I did with my T100S irons, which I also loved. Confidence can be the difference between a good round and a great round but that comes from the player, not the clubs even though those clubs are what gives me that confidence. 

Id say though that the difference is that most people buy a new washing machine when their old one dies or is worn out.  People buy new golf clubs every year under the guise that its going to improve their game and based upon claims by the OEMs that are mostly BS.

"I suppose its better to be a master of 7 than to be vaguely familiar with 14." - Chick Evans

Whats in my Sun Mountain 2.5+ stand bag?

Woods: Tommy Armour Atomic 10.5* 

Hybrid: Mizuno MP Fli-Hi 3H

Irons: Mizuno T-Zoid True 5, 7 and 9-irons

Wedge: Mizuno S18 54* and Top Flite chipper

Putter: Mizuno Bettinardi A-02

Ball: Maxfli Tour X

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19 hours ago, BostonSal said:

I think that the marketers do their job and the engineers do theirs.   

The human is the most variable thing in the golf swing, so in all likelihood, the engineered product, this year's or that from ten years ago, is capable of better shots than the player.   The MP-52s that I bought in, if memory serves, 2009, are still capable of better shots than the player swinging them.  If the current model is minutely superior from an engineering standpoint, is mine the swing that will confirm that?  Hardly.

I have clubs in my bag dating from a then unique face-balanced putter from 1978

to a smaller volume head, higher lofted driver that I bought this year.

I also have a newer five wood, set at 18º, as my long fairway wood,

and a late nineties five wood, set at 21º, as my lofted fairway wood.

The newer five wood clearly flies longer and the older one easily leaps tall trees when I load up trying to reach a short par 5

and put my drive on an adjacent fairway.

I could be 100% wrong, not being the typical internet golf forum member,

but I basically buy new gear when I've got a jones for something new.

It's almost NEVER to fill a real need.   Almost  never.

 

As for ZenGolfers non-conforming grooves, my cart nag is designed to hold fifteen clubs.

 

Hey, Im with you for buying new clubs because you want new clubs.  I can respect that.  The issue that I have and the one that gets an eye roll from me is when people buy new clubs thinking that its going to improve their golf game or who think that new clubs have all this revolution club technology as compared to their 2 year old clubs.

"I suppose its better to be a master of 7 than to be vaguely familiar with 14." - Chick Evans

Whats in my Sun Mountain 2.5+ stand bag?

Woods: Tommy Armour Atomic 10.5* 

Hybrid: Mizuno MP Fli-Hi 3H

Irons: Mizuno T-Zoid True 5, 7 and 9-irons

Wedge: Mizuno S18 54* and Top Flite chipper

Putter: Mizuno Bettinardi A-02

Ball: Maxfli Tour X

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I didn't think of it in these exact terms before, but it occurs to me....

I buy a new set of irons with the expectation that it will play pretty much the same as the old set.

It could be a matter of dull grooves or shabby cosmetics precipitating the change,

but if there's a noticeable difference in feel or performance,

I would see that as having made a mistake,

Old dogs aren't really looking to learn new tricks.

 

Louisville Golf Persimmon___2, 4, 5, 7-woods;    Epon AF-906___driving iron;   Titleist T100 5, 6, 7, 8, 9-irons; 

Titleist T100S___48°;     Edison 2.0___53º;     Titleist SM-9 (T)___58º;   Tad Moore Otto Hackbarth___putter;   

Titleist Pro V1x___ball

 

 

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2 hours ago, ZenGolfer said:

Id say though that the difference is that most people buy a new washing machine when their old one dies or is worn out.  People buy new golf clubs every year under the guise that its going to improve their game and based upon claims by the OEMs that are mostly BS.

 

...  We will just have to disagree on this point. While I agree many golfers buy new clubs thinking they will improve their game or scores, I don't think OEM's mislead anyone or make any claims that aren't true. Sure, plenty of marketing about their new product and how it is sooooo very awesome but nothing about improving your game or even being better than any other club. Those are leaps made by the buyer that wants to believe they can buy a new game because it is easier than taking lessons and putting in the work. Read the marketing of the P790's that again tell you about all kinds of wonderful technology but nothing about making you a better golfer or even being better than the irons you are playing now. If you find any BS in the P790 marketing feel free to post it because I can't find it. 


https://www.taylormadegolf.com/P790-Irons/DW-TA228.html?lang=en_US

Driver:     :taylormade-small:  Qi10 Max 10.5* ... Graphite Design AD-IZr
Fairway:  :cobra-small: Aerojet 3/5 ... Kai'li Blue 60R
Hybrids:  :ping-small:      430 Hybrid 22*... Steelfiber 780Hy 
                  :taylormade-small:  DHy #4 ... Diamana LTD 65r 
Irons:       :titleist-small:         '23 T200 5-Pw ... Steelfiber i95r
Wedges:  :taylormade-small: Vokey 50*/54*/58* ... Steelfiber i95r
Putter:     :EVNROLL:  Custom EV 5.1  33" 
Ball:           Maxfli     Maxfli Tour

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