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Shrink the Game.


Shankster

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47 minutes ago, Lacassem said:

not to get off subject. What do you do for the course? Would love to pick your brain, long term this is my goal at a facility management level.

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Just now, DPattGolf said:

I'm an assistant golf professional

Ok.  You have first hand knowledge of what goes on “behind” the scenes.  
 

Do you guys have a stock problem on normal golf balls?  Like V1’s, etc? 
 

I get it, Covid really messed up the supply chain.

I can’t get a fresh box in this town, except target had a box the other day.

How had your “normal” groups adapted to the influx of new players?  Anyone as grumpy as me?

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1 hour ago, revkev said:

Wow interesting that this thread went that way. I disagree with the Shankster here but I’m certainly not angry with him, He’s hardly the first person to not like change for crying out loud.  And it is in the spirit of MGS to be free to post an unpopular opinion. 

 

Personally, I like golf’s new found popularity. It’s a great sport. I’m glad others are enjoying it. In regards to course availability and pace of play it probably depends upon where you live.


I’ve had no trouble getting out and don’t recall a round much over 4 hours.  I haven’t noticed appreciably more footprints in traps or ball marks on greens, as others have noted they e always been there - less so at the clubs I play at more do the public tracks.

 

As for the increase in fees that some have experienced consider how much money these clubs lost when their real profit makers, booze and food were shut down- I know that my club lost 250k in revenue from canceled events - that revenue has to be made up somehow or people loose their jobs and course conditions suffer. 
 

I’d be careful characterizing management as greedy. If they truly were they’d sell the course to real estate developers 

 

I honestly don't see golf having a new found popularity here in New England, even as I certainly agree that it's a great sport.

More courses have closed than have opened.

You can just walk onto most of the green fee ones on weekdays at least.

People who used to play have stopped, which is always going to happen as players age out of the game, but some are stopping for the expense.

I don't see how manicuring 150 acres of real estate can be anything but hideously expensive.

In Boston, we have a nationally respected muni, the George Wright, but few of the 1930s WPA project munis still exist.  Most public courses are privately owned,

house lots are worth a fortune in the area, so if the public courses don't make a profit, you know what happens.

 

That the sport is gaining in popularity elsewhere is a good sign, but it's in a down cycle right now around here from my observations.  Things, of course, are always subject to unpredictable change, and this could change as well.

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44 minutes ago, DPattGolf said:

I'm an assistant golf professional

By the way I thought your criticism of the original points was extremely level and fair.

@Shankster we’ve never had a golf ball shortage so that’s a new one on me. I thought you had moved to the DC area. Is that true? 

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1 minute ago, Shankster said:

Ok.  You have first hand knowledge of what goes on “behind” the scenes.  
 

Do you guys have a stock problem on normal golf balls?  Like V1’s, etc? 
 

I get it, Covid really messed up the supply chain.

I can’t get a fresh box in this town, except target had a box the other day.

How had your “normal” groups adapted to the influx of new players?  Anyone as grumpy as me?

Gloves were worse than balls at the high point during COVID but neither was truly truly difficult to get a hold of unless you wanted yellow AVX. Those were very difficult to get ahold of for awhile. Clubs have periodically been difficult but that is primarily due to Golf Prides on going grip shortage (Supposedly they lost a shipping container or 2 full of grips in the middle of COVID). Other back orders have been for typical reasons you would see in any given year in the past. In general other than the very start of COVID when everything got hard shut down in Asia, getting ahold of product has been mostly a none issue (grips excluded). 

There will always be grumpy people. But most have adapted to make sure they can play. Most just make times a little farther out in advance so they can get as close to their preferred time as possible. Some have decided to play other public courses that just aren't as busy on specific days or all together. Some have decided to join a private or semi private clubs. Some have had to shift their typical play times to other less competitive times. Each course is a little different and has seen growth in different parts of the tee sheet. At the public resort I previously worked at, Noon and later became even more popular than it already was so more players started booking the max days in advance while others decided to make time or upgrade their pass to play a little earlier where it was less busy. At my new club its the opposite. Mornings are hyper competitive so more players have started playing in the afternoons. Both regions have very different golf climates too. Central Oregon has roughly 140,000 residents with 25+ courses (more rumored to come in the future too). The PDX and the surrounding area has a similar number of courses but a population of nearly 1 million. Courses in both regions are relatively equally busy. You may not get your 1st choice of tee time but there is a usually a spot to play at every course. You just may need to be more flexible to play a certain course depending on when you are trying to play and how soon you are trying to book.

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6 minutes ago, BostonSal said:

I honestly don't see golf having a new found popularity here in New England, even as I certainly agree that it's a great sport.

More courses have closed than have opened.

You can just walk onto most of the green fee ones on weekdays at least.

People who used to play have stopped, which is always going to happen as players age out of the game, but some are stopping for the expense.

I don't see how manicuring 150 acres of real estate can be anything but hideously expensive.

In Boston, we have a nationally respected muni, the George Wright, but few of the 1930s WPA project munis still exist.  Most public courses are privately owned,

house lots are worth a fortune in the area, so if the public courses don't make a profit, you know what happens.

 

That the sport is gaining in popularity elsewhere is a good sign, but it's in a down cycle right now around here from my observations.  Things, of course, are always subject to unpredictable change, and this could change as well.

This was true even when I left CT in 1989. There were never enough Public courses where I lived. I was stunned when I moved to the Midwest and found that there was an array of public courses at a wide variety of price points. 
 

Florida is similar to that - we have had 2 public courses close in the past 5 or 6 years but we had a private course open. We have enough courses to support the boom. And a variety of price points and quality as well. 

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It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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4 hours ago, Shankster said:

Yeah.  I hear your points, they are valid, but I’d say mine are too.  So we got that going for us.  You cannot put 10 pounds of stuff in a 5 pound bag.

I beg to differ. My wife can stuff 50lb of clothes in a carry on suitcase...😁😅🤣😜

 

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Gentlemen -

This has been heavy on my mind today.  Went home and talked it over with my wife (the sane one) of our family.  So here goes.

 

It isn’t that want to discourage anyone from taking up this great game, because that is not what I intended to come across as saying, but it sounded like it. I love this sport, but I also like to play it as fast as I can within reason.  I’m a ready golfer, and any sort delay on the course throws off my rhythm. Anything longer than 3 hours is way to dang long.  Less than 2:30 for 18 is my goal, which I was doing pretty much all summer.  Get above that and my interest level drops to nothing. (Yes, a new problem).

This isn’t just for golf, how many of you like showing up for your doctors appointment on time or early only to be seen a hour later than you were supposed to be? Time is something that you can’t get back.  Or sit around and wait for your cable company to show up between 8-5? 

My “no room” for new golfers is based on the fact that equipment makers have backlogs as I’ve read on here, and elsewhere. By room I meant it cannot handle the inundation of new players. Not that I don’t want new people to take up the game. Yea, covid played a huge part in this lack of clubs, gloves, etc… so that is what I meant there. No room as in where do you get the equipment needed, and find a tee time?

Moving along, where I’m at there are 3 courses that are within driving distance 35 minutes for me is the cap. The base course where I play 100% of the time.  A nice course I’ve yet to play, and one that looks like it needs a remodel.  There is a shortage of golf courses here.

Dicks Sporting Goods is out of ProV1’s, the pro shop only has a few TM, Cally, and Tour Softs… but 100000 pinnacles. And sparse on the V1x…  it sure why.

You can all throw sticks at me all you want, and I probably served it.  (Today at least)(and probably many times before)…

Stay Classy ~

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11 minutes ago, Shankster said:

I’m a ready golfer, and any sort delay on the course throws off my rhythm. Anything longer than 3 hours is way to dang long.  Less than 2:30 for 18 is my goal, which I was doing pretty much all summer.

For me I have no expectation unless playing solo twilight to be done in under 4:15 regardless of course. As mentioned earlier I don’t play any course with known pace of play issues. The first couple groups out typically finish in under that time but they can also ruin the pace by taking. 
 

I can see from an expectation standpoint why you feel this way.

12 minutes ago, Shankster said:

Time is something that you can’t get back.  Or sit around and wait for your cable company to show up between 8-5? 

While I agree I plan my time and activities around whatever I’m doing. If it’s a round a golf I know I’m going to be gone for X amount of time between driving and playing. If it’s an appointment I plan extra time around the front and backend of the appointment so that I’m not feeling rushed or impatient. But overall waiting for a block of time does suck.
 

 

14 minutes ago, Shankster said:

Moving along, where I’m at there are 3 courses that are within driving distance 35 minutes for me is the cap. The base course where I play 100% of the time.  A nice course I’ve yet to play, and one that looks like it needs a remodel.  There is a shortage of golf courses here.

Dicks Sporting Goods is out of ProV1’s, the pro shop only has a few TM, Cally, and Tour Softs… but 100000 pinnacles. And sparse on the V1x…  it sure why.

I’m the opposite. I rarely play within 30 mins of my house and the vast majority of the time it’s 45 mins one way with no traffic. So for me my options of where to play opens up and is really only limited by whether I’m playing as a single or with golf buddies.

Also opposite here with balls and gloves. DSG, my local range pro shop all have plenty in stock for balls and dsg had plenty of gloves. 
 

But for me this is where the loyalty program works. I order 4 dozen at release for the price of 3. That usually lasts me a season plus and I will order again the following spring so I’m rarely lacking for golf balls. 
 

I get where you are coming from in the post but it’s way more person and locale dependent 

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The National Golf Foundation keeps the stats. 

Fact:

There was a loss of 20 million rounds of golf at the start of COVID with courses shutting down in certain areas.

By years end there were 502 million recorded.

This was 61 million more than 2019 or a 14% increase.

However the majority of the rounds were not from new golfers but rather core golfers.

Public courses saw an increase in play by 12%, Private saw an increase of 20%

In the US 169 golf courses closed and 18 new ones opened. (There might have been more than 18 but this is what I quickly found)

 

Personally I have no problems in my area playing golf. Tee sheets are not full. You can still walk up and play public courses. The general unavailability of tee times is specific to locations and populations around that area. But the facts are the facts, more rounds were played in 2020 on less courses. So yes there were less tee times available.  

 

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12 minutes ago, tommc23 said:

Alan you and I are on the same page on pace of place I want my round done in about 3 hours.

My dad and I can do 3 hour rounds.  He’s 60 still hits bombs.  He’s a methodical player… so some would call him slow.  But if he can do a 3 hour round… anyone can.

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3 hours ago, Shankster said:

My dad and I can do 3 hour rounds.  He’s 60 still hits bombs.  He’s a methodical player… so some would call him slow.  But if he can do a 3 hour round… anyone can.

I'm in my 60's and play in two hours with a cart and 2 hours and 10 minutes walking. I want to shoot myself if it takes 4 to 5 hours. 

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@Shankster dude…. I got what you were getting at. I didnt read that the way a few did. Im not worked up. The rapid surge of new or returning golfers overwhelmed a lot of places. Im in MN. We have a ridiculous amount of courses here.  When covid hit, finding tee times inside of 4 days was very hard to do unless you were a single, willing to drive an hour or more, or wanted to play twilight, and that was even hard to do. Its slowed up a little, but its still tough. A lot of courses have cut down to 7min tee times (from 10) with full tee sheets of newbs and “Claw Braws”. This has led to course Marshall's being rude and slow play. Its not everywhere but its common. I personally dont mind a 4 hour round and will frequently play 36 if the first was 3 or so. I enjoy being at the course and playing all day when time allows. I love to see new people and kids getting into it and golf growing, AT A PACE THAT IT CAN HANDLE.

 

and before anyone says it, we are ALWAYS right behind the group in front lol. We arent the ones holding up POP.

Edited by Tyler86

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Another thought I had, I play as a single most every time.  So I picked the times when no one was there because I know how much of a pain it is to let someone play through.  Not many courses I’ve ever played allow a single to make a tee time, so there’s that.

Just doing my part to make it more enjoyable for everyone. Trying to go at the dead time of day.

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I had another thought tonight. Golf has been my way to decompress since before covid. But now, in these trying times, golf has been a huge key to me keeping my sanity. If full tee times all over the country means that there are that many people keeping their heads right, than bring it on. Lets fill these courses up!!!!! Even if it gets frustrating once in a while. 

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@Tyler86 you mentioned 7 minute tee times.

4 dudes, 4 balls off in the junk.  “3” minutes looking for each, more like 5. You are looking at 12 minutes just for the drive.  Say one guy hits the fairway or can find it.  Now you are 9 minutes.  Say that two of them hit the fairway, and ply ready golf… 6, but the other two are still on a search and rescue mission… meanwhile the guys back on the tee are waiting to hit at their 7 minute window…

I see it every time I go out. Multiple times.  Then they still have to finish the hole. You’re really looking at 15+ Minutes at least per hole sometimes.  I waited on a tee box earlier this summer for 20 minutes on the 8th hole before I could tee off.

Busy times I think should be closer to the 12-13 minute apart tee times.  Get some earth under them before the next group puts balls in the air. But I’m no golf expert nor work in the business.  Just a consumer making an observation.

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I typically dont see to much delay on courses with 10 min tee times. Even with full tee sheets, foursomes seem to finish under 4 hours. But the 7 min tee times are almost always 4:30 or worse. Just an observation that i see. 

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I have only a small group of golfing buds, just enough to make a 4-some every weekend if someone sits out.  But most of my extended friend group are non-golfers.  We're all in our mid-to-late 30's and I would say the general feeling about picking up golf as a hobby are that it is "too expensive", "too dificult", and "takes too long".  These guys have young toddlers and find it hard to leave for 4-5hrs, or even take the time to practice.

I'm ALL for growing the game.  Golf was an elitist sport for generations before already.  By saying "Shrink the Game" carries a non-inclusive sentiment that already shrouded it for too long.  More with "Educate the Game", I definitely feel that new/struggling golfers should know their "lane" and stay off the longer, difficult courses and stick to the Par-3's or 9-holes.

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On 9/10/2021 at 12:49 PM, Shankster said:

It isn’t that want to discourage anyone from taking up this great game, because that is not what I intended to come across as saying, but it sounded like it. I love this sport, but I also like to play it as fast as I can within reason.  I’m a ready golfer, and any sort delay on the course throws off my rhythm. Anything longer than 3 hours is way to dang long.  Less than 2:30 for 18 is my goal, which I was doing pretty much all summer.  Get above that and my interest level drops to nothing. (Yes, a new problem).

This isn’t just for golf, how many of you like showing up for your doctors appointment on time or early only to be seen a hour later than you were supposed to be? Time is something that you can’t get back.  Or sit around and wait for your cable company to show up between 8-5? 

My “no room” for new golfers is based on the fact that equipment makers have backlogs as I’ve read on here, and elsewhere. By room I meant it cannot handle the inundation of new players. Not that I don’t want new people to take up the game. Yea, covid played a huge part in this lack of clubs, gloves, etc… so that is what I meant there. No room as in where do you get the equipment needed, and find a tee time?

Moving along, where I’m at there are 3 courses that are within driving distance 35 minutes for me is the cap. The base course where I play 100% of the time.  A nice course I’ve yet to play, and one that looks like it needs a remodel.  There is a shortage of golf courses here.

Dicks Sporting Goods is out of ProV1’s, the pro shop only has a few TM, Cally, and Tour Softs… but 100000 pinnacles. And sparse on the V1x…  it sure why.

You can all throw sticks at me all you want, and I probably served it.  (Today at least)(and probably many times before)…

Stay Classy ~

Mate, in reading through the thread, you seem to make the anchor point yourself and your convenience, even when talking about throwing sticks and staying classy. So that could be a critical block in communication. Others are talking about overall trends or the game as a whole, whereas you're still trying to narrow the focus to how you've been affected. 

Point 1 (Round Times): Saying anything longer than 3 hours is too long and that even a short delay throws off your rhythm is already asking for trouble. Just using simple math, you're saying anything over 10 minutes per hole is too long. Most local courses I've looked into (and in Salt Lake, there's a lot) have about 12-14 minutes per hole. Thanksgiving Point, which is one of the nicer courses in the valley, sets pace of play to be 4 and a half hours for 18 holes. So your view of fast is up to an hour and a half faster than the courses themselves could be requiring. And again, get about 2.5 to 3 hours and YOUR interest level drops. That's not on the people who are following proper pace of play, still ending an hour fast at 3.5 hours, but are half an hour to an hour slower than you'd like.

Point 2 (Equipment shortages): A lot of newbies, youtubers, MGS members, etc have gone on and on about finding older gear that is on the market now. Enough equipment is there. The issues are with regard to NEW equipment. Most new golfers I know who have taken up the game of golf went to Goodwill or a thrift store to get some cheap clubs while they learn. Or, like my wife, they were given a set from friends. There is more than plenty of room if you're willing to bend a little or get creative. 

Point 3 (Courses): Again, the focus is on courses within your driving cap of 35 minutes. So the caveat and basis is about what is convenient to you. Which is fine, but that doesn't mean there's no room in golf for others. Like you, I don't like driving more than a half hour, but I've done so for openings, events and to golf with family at their home courses. It's not terrible. 

Point 4 (Golf balls): Again, the focus being on the shortage of golf balls you prefer. If they don't have ProV1s that day, try the other golf balls that are available. Try ordering online, whether that be new ones on amazon or the pga superstore, or reused/refurbished ones from  lostgolfballs.com. The costs are up due to COVID (as they are with every resource), but there are still ways to get what you want.

 

Just trying to say take a step back and to not look at it from a matter of your personal convenience. While those definitely affect you, that doesn't necessarily equate to the effect on the game as a whole. 

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Personal convenience and the overall trends of the game will likely not overlap, but despite that,

while non-parallel, both are important considerations to the player.

 

I'm not in a hurry when I play with my older friends on a weekday morning.

I've got all day, and the round takes as long as it takes.

This suits my convenience, but I perfectly understand that it couldn't possibly fly as an overall trend of the game.

 

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On 9/9/2021 at 7:59 PM, DiscipleofPenick said:

I think what's going on right now is still being driven by Covid. I'm not seeing more golfers, just more bodies on the course. Can't go to a bar? Skittish about being inside with friends? Well, it'll cost us a little more, but we can drink here! I think I got my dad's clubs somewhere, Kirklands are cheap, let's go pound some claws brah.  It's that crowd. I think a lot of these bodies will cycle back to their usual routine next year, fingers crossed were finally through this.

+1.  Golf was one of the few (perhaps the only?) sport that seemed to remain open during the worst of the pandemic.  I think you're right that this spike will subside once the little microscopic ball with the weird spikey things all over it goes off into the flaming annals of hell... and even that is probably too good a ending.

 

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On 9/11/2021 at 5:55 AM, Shankster said:

@Tyler86 you mentioned 7 minute tee times.

4 dudes, 4 balls off in the junk.  “3” minutes looking for each, more like 5. You are looking at 12 minutes just for the drive.  Say one guy hits the fairway or can find it.  Now you are 9 minutes.  Say that two of them hit the fairway, and ply ready golf… 6, but the other two are still on a search and rescue mission… meanwhile the guys back on the tee are waiting to hit at their 7 minute window…

I see it every time I go out. Multiple times.  Then they still have to finish the hole. You’re really looking at 15+ Minutes at least per hole sometimes.  I waited on a tee box earlier this summer for 20 minutes on the 8th hole before I could tee off.

Busy times I think should be closer to the 12-13 minute apart tee times.  Get some earth under them before the next group puts balls in the air. But I’m no golf expert nor work in the business.  Just a consumer making an observation.

In Montana, many carry firearms, slow play is rarely an issue.  Absolutely no idea if there is a connection between these facts, just laying that out there 🙂.

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6 hours ago, BostonSal said:

I'm not in a hurry when I play with my older friends on a weekday morning.

I've got all day, and the round takes as long as it takes.

This suits my convenience, but I perfectly understand that it couldn't possibly fly as an overall trend of the game.

 

This brings up an interesting point. Many who were able to work from home during the past year found some time to hit the links during the course of their work day. These are also the same people that are trying to get back to their home office to get more work done, make it back for a conference call, or teams meeting. So when they run into groups not in a rush thats when I could see problems arising. 

The normal mens group of retired guys is out for a leisurely round like they normally do and are not in a rush. The guys on a mission to get back to work get pissed because they can't get done in 3 hours. So in essence the weekday rounds are now similar to Saturday rounds. Partially due to increased volume. 

 I see this on my course as well and it's private. We have several groups that go off the same time and take up a few start times all retired guys that play 3 to 4 times a week and its their day to play and take as long as they want and do not play ready golf. But they always had the course to themselves for the most part. Now they have company with a different agenda. So with them following each other around you can't play through. The only option is to skip holes and come back. You can't do that on most courses. 

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On 9/10/2021 at 8:28 AM, Tom the Golf Nut said:

Never had cart fees before. I'm not complaining about the new cart fees it's only $6.00. It's more the way it was introduced. Blame the pandemic which is justified then when you allow two to a cart again you still keep it n place. Plus they raised guest fees by $5.00 because more people were coming out to play with members. So in my opinion it is taking advantage of a pandemic to increase your profits. 

I'm on a mountain type course walking is difficult. Every hole has elevation changes and I mean every hole. You can walk it and I have done it but I prefer not to. An old back injury prevents me from carrying. I use a three wheel on occasion but pushing or dragging it up the hills is rough. 

$6!!!!!!! Dang! Cart price around us is $20-$28. 

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On 9/10/2021 at 9:40 AM, Shankster said:

Yes.  I guess everyone likes parking lots and lack of equipment.  That’s fine.  
 

Have you seen the uptick in ridiculous Instagram accounts of the bunker jumping, and generally acting like a Jack wagon on the course…

I can do without all of that, and this “boom”… 

Yes, I can't stand these golf Bro's that have no respect for the courses and go for shock & awe just to grow their InstaTok followers. I'm really starting to detest the lame golf memes everywhere I look too. But, I'm old, so.

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I've seen it both ways, the seasoned golfer and the new golfer, both taking their leisurely time into a 5 hour round. I even had the seasoned golfer take 40 minutes for the last 2 holes with nothing but rain clouds surrounds us. In a way I don't love having to wait for tee times or booking constantly 2 weeks in advance but if it keeps the courses in good financial shape where they are able to make some capital improvements, it's good for everyone. The divots and replacing pitch marks is a problem throughout, not just the new golfer. At the same time it takes a few words and maybe some teaching to show these newbies how to fix divots and ball marks on the green. It was a few years back that someone kindly showed me how to fix these same divots and marks when I started playing golf 2 years ago. I know everyone won't take instruction as kindly... I think about it as my good deed for the day lol

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13 hours ago, Tom the Golf Nut said:

This brings up an interesting point. Many who were able to work from home during the past year found some time to hit the links during the course of their work day. These are also the same people that are trying to get back to their home office to get more work done, make it back for a conference call, or teams meeting. So when they run into groups not in a rush thats when I could see problems arising. 

The normal mens group of retired guys is out for a leisurely round like they normally do and are not in a rush. The guys on a mission to get back to work get pissed because they can't get done in 3 hours. So in essence the weekday rounds are now similar to Saturday rounds. Partially due to increased volume. 

 I see this on my course as well and it's private. We have several groups that go off the same time and take up a few start times all retired guys that play 3 to 4 times a week and its their day to play and take as long as they want and do not play ready golf. But they always had the course to themselves for the most part. Now they have company with a different agenda. So with them following each other around you can't play through. The only option is to skip holes and come back. You can't do that on most courses. 

Seniors play in order rather than play "ready golf" to have eight eyes on a shot, Tom.

Looking for balls in the middle of the fairway or elsewhere because your old eyes didn't see them land 

doesn't do anything to speed up the game either.

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Titleist T100S___48°;     Edison 2.0___53º;     Titleist SM-9 (T)___58º;   Tad Moore Otto Hackbarth___putter;   

Titleist Pro V1x___ball

 

 

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4 hours ago, Headhammer said:

$6!!!!!!! Dang! Cart price around us is $20-$28. 

The $6.00 is my private course. Cart fees were included in your membership in the past. Typically golf is inexpensive in my area if you walk. A local public course near me is $16.00 to walk for 18 holes and $28.00 with a cart. A good majority of golfers don't walk the local courses due to elevation changes. 

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