Gapping

[thefullmonte]

With the driver taken care of, I’m working on retooling the rest of the big sticks in the bag.

I have carried a Ping G 3W (13.5*) for many years, and while the good shots with it are BOMBS…it leaves too much to be desired with consistency.  Essentially, if I’m leaving the driver in the Bag…I darn sure better find a fairway.  
 

From there, it’s a 3H (19*) and then 4 iron.  Both have their good days and bad days.  But primarily concerned that the 3H has the same issue as the 3H:  good ones are BOMBS that make playing partners say “wow,” and way too many that make them go “WTF were you aiming at?”

 

so the goal here is to stop caring as much about distance, and put together a top end of the bag that has at least ONE club I can count on when it’s a low margin of error shot.

Currently considering something like a 5W….then maybe a new Hybrid?  But a 3? 4? 5?

Edited September 14, 2021 by thefullmonte
Spelling

[jtgavigan]

Not trying to be a smart alec here, but have you looked at mechanics? That should also be in play.

The reason I ask is that I was really struggling like this off the tee last year, regardless of club. I also had some poor equipment fits as well that contributed. However,  a perfect club cannot overcome a really bad swing or even just a bad setup.

My biggest struggle is a stall of the hips and hands and arms try to square the club. It can lead to some really, really bad misses. It is not the club's fault. I also spend a ton of time on the range on an alignment stick so I know what good alignment looks like. The more offline I line up, the worsemy misses get. 

What is your swing speed with driver? Tempo? What flex shafts are you playing in your longer clubs? What is your handicap? Typical miss?

Edited September 14, 2021 by jtgavigan

[RickyBobby_PR]

Going to a 4 or 5w instead of the 3w is a good option. The added loft will help with contact and many amateurs hit the higher lofted woods as far or further than their 3w because of better launch conditions.

Same for a hybrid. The more loft one has  to hit.

The thread title is about gapping yet you want to forget about distance and find a club you can hit. They don’t have to be exclusive. You can find clubs that do both. Go to a good fitter and let them get you into a setup of head and shaft that works for your swing and also gives you the distances you need to fill distance gaps in your bag. Unless you are tied to one brand find a fitter that offer multiple brands and has good fitting carts. 

 

[thefullmonte]

So I’m thinking first step is to replace current 13.5 3W with a 16.5 (Titleist) or 17 (TM HL)

 

from there is gets dicey.  Thinking a 5 wood is likely dumb.  
 

7W?

2H and 5H?  Like to have something with a little better control into long par 3’s

[RickyBobby_PR]

5 hours ago, thefullmonte said:

So I’m thinking first step is to replace current 13.5 3W with a 16.5 (Titleist) or 17 (TM HL)

 

from there is gets dicey.  Thinking a 5 wood is likely dumb.  
 

7W?

2H and 5H?  Like to have something with a little better control into long par 3’s

The 3hl from TM is a good option as is the 4w from Titleist. I have the 3hl Sim2 and my go to in titleist is the 16.5. If you struggle with a 3h getting a 2h isn’t going to be any better off.

What you need to do is figure out what the distance is for the longest iron in your bag then determine what distances you need and find clubs that fit into those distances. And to limit yourself to a specific number on the hybrid or fw isn’t the best way. A 5h may be the same distance as your 5i depending on the brand you choose. A 5w may be close to the titleist or Tm. 
 

You say you aren’t worried about distance but if you don’t look at it you could end up with clubs in your bag that overlap. Getting a fitting or doing a gap session with a pro would be the best way to figure it all out. Otherwise it’s a guessing game and your guess will be as good as anyone who chimes in 

[BostonSal]

3 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

You say you aren’t worried about distance but if you don’t look at it you could end up with clubs in your bag that overlap.

I do that knowingly.

I usually bag a driving iron that pretty closely overlaps a fairway wood.

Depending on your philosophy on set configuration, you can go for gapping to cover specific distances,

or clubbing for specific kinds of shots and then improvising for distance control.

[RickyBobby_PR]

19 minutes ago, BostonSal said:

I do that knowingly.

I usually bag a driving iron that pretty closely overlaps a fairway wood.

Depending on your philosophy on set configuration, you can go for gapping to cover specific distances,

or clubbing for specific kinds of shots and then improvising for distance control.

Pretty nifty reply.

Most amateurs don’t have the ability to improvise shots/and or control distance. As you see on the forum there’s golfers here who struggle with anything that’s not a full swing, some with chips and pitches or bunker play.

Even some of the better players on the forum don’t vary much in the shots they play and avoid awkward distances. Some of the best players in the world try to avoid partial swings and play to certain numbers.

Without knowing the OPs game one can’t make the leap that he has the ability to create a shot not to mention he’s looking at the top of the bag issues which isn’t really a place that people are looking to be creative with shots but rather to either find a certain distance or to hit whatever club the furthest possible.

 

[cnosil]

57 minutes ago, BostonSal said:

I do that knowingly.

I usually bag a driving iron that pretty closely overlaps a fairway wood.

Depending on your philosophy on set configuration, you can go for gapping to cover specific distances,

or clubbing for specific kinds of shots and then improvising for distance control.

Everyone does things differently.  We have seem PGA pros carry 2 drivers to be able to work the ball different directions off the tee or changing changing club types to account for conditions.    
Hitting shot varieties is where the concept of chasing and optimizing numbers on launch monitors starts to have some holes.  As players we don’t always see optimal conditions on a. Course and have to manufacture shots to avoid obstacles, manage environmental conditions like wind, or hit a distance that falls in between our gapping.  Players also think they need 14 clubs but as people age the gap between clubs narrows which means they can allow for the overlap since they need fewer clubs to cover there longest and shortest club.  Lots of ways to build a bag and each player needs to determine what works for them as there isn’t a universal setup for everyone. 

[revkev]

Back at the original poster - my immediate thought was try 4w, 7w as a potential solution.  Do you know what your AoA is?  It could simply be that your swing is the type that works better with a larger platform because you have a shallow attack angle.  If you hit the ball pretty well you may not wish to try and chase 3 wood and less lofted hybrid with swing changes.

 

To BostonSal's comment us older guys learned to work the ball at least in regards to distance control when we were kids.  I'm going to guess that you were like me - when you started you just had odd irons - 3,5,7,9 maybe driver, 3 wood and putter - you learn to take something off or put something on when you play that way.  I can do it - especially I'm still good at taking something off of an iron shot into the green but I'd prefer to make a full swing most of the time.  I suspect nearly all of us are better, more consistent when we take full swings unless we have a lot of time to practice.  However, your course may require some tee shots where the iron is preferable to the wood/hybrid.  

[BostonSal]

2 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Pretty nifty reply.

Most amateurs don’t have the ability to improvise shots/and or control distance. As you see on the forum there’s golfers here who struggle with anything that’s not a full swing, some with chips and pitches or bunker play.

Even some of the better players on the forum don’t vary much in the shots they play and avoid awkward distances. Some of the best players in the world try to avoid partial swings and play to certain numbers.

Without knowing the OPs game one can’t make the leap that he has the ability to create a shot not to mention he’s looking at the top of the bag issues which isn’t really a place that people are looking to be creative with shots but rather to either find a certain distance or to hit whatever club the furthest possible.

 

A few notes.

1, I have you on ignore but your posts come through anyway. I don't know why.

2, Some amateurs are +4 handicappers.  The term "recreational player" better describes what you're talking about.

3. I merely suggested that some players equip for particular shots rather than even distance increments, but I didn't particularly recommend it.

 

Maybe it's me, but I sense a snarkiness in your correspondence with me that I can do without.

 

[cnosil]

31 minutes ago, BostonSal said:

1, I have you on ignore but your posts come through anyway. I don't know why..

 

Ignore simply means you won’t be notified of a quote or post like.   The posts will still be visible.  

[RickyBobby_PR]

32 minutes ago, BostonSal said:

A few notes.

1, I have you on ignore but your posts come through anyway. I don't know why.

2, Some amateurs are +4 handicappers.  The term "recreational player" better describes what you're talking about.

3. I merely suggested that some players equip for particular shots rather than even distance increments, but I didn't particularly recommend it.

 

Maybe it's me, but I sense a snarkiness in your correspondence with me that I can do without.

 

Yet you keep quoting and responding to me.

I was pointing out in your initial reply to me that the op hasn’t given enough information as well as gapping based on distance control isn’t what most amateurs have the ability to do. Also as mentioned gapping for distance control and/or shot types is rare. 
 

 

[tigerpill]

13 hours ago, thefullmonte said:

So I’m thinking first step is to replace current 13.5 3W with a 16.5 (Titleist) or 17 (TM HL)

 

from there is gets dicey.  Thinking a 5 wood is likely dumb.  
 

7W?

2H and 5H?  Like to have something with a little better control into long par 3’s

My suggestion would be to work with a professional fitter on the gaps. In general the 5H should be easier to control - higher loft. Say a 25 degree versus the 21 or 19 degree hybrid. Same thinking as the 7W versus the 5. Regardless, the gapping is important and relates to what's the highest iron you want to carry.

[SharkyM]

If you're going from older woods, 2015-2013 or before, I'd try a newer head of more loft for sure.  I've seen posts in various boards stating that 'things haven't changed much for fairway woods' but I'd disagree.   My opinion and experience with this,  be honest with yourself about your swing tendencies and seek some fitting help for the right head and shaft combo, you could find that due to launch conditions, a 16.5 or 17 head is flying longer/higher/smash'd better than a 15 or 13.5.  It's a unicorn hunt / dark art to find a 3w that one really owns.  It will transform your game as you'll be attacking rather than guarding when that club is in your hands.

I went thru something similar and ditched a club that was sporadic good for me.  LOL got on in two at 18 at Pebble with it once with it, but I felt I should be hitting something more consistently.  I found the latest Srixon ZX 15 3W with a black Smoke handcrafted was the ticket, off the deck and off the tee, this is a monster...

I went 15* 3w 18* 5w, the 5w is one of my favorite clubs in the bag for its versatility and amount of trust I have in it.  

Try as many head/shaft combinations as you can and don't lock yourself to one manufacturer...I'm glad that on a whim I tried that Srixon at a local demo day, for me, it was night and day difference to others I had tried, 3 shots and I knew this was it...

[tobybtlr]

I play a G30 3wood and it basically acts as a 2nd driver on tight holes or holes with trouble left and right.  I rarely hit it off the deck.  Has to be a perfect lie.  The 5 wood I carry is consistent from shot to shot.  I also carry a 3 iron.  I like it from about 200 yards.   I’m not a long hitter so the top end of the bag carries a little more  

[barryschwartz56]

Seems to me if you can BOMB your 3W, 3H and 4i sometimes, and then other times its a WTF shot, the issue is your swing consistency.  Like many say, it's not the arrow, it's the Indian.  Maybe a lesson with the pro to figure out what's causing the WTF shots. 

[thefullmonte]

16 hours ago, BostonSal said:

I do that knowingly.

I usually bag a driving iron that pretty closely overlaps a fairway wood.

Depending on your philosophy on set configuration, you can go for gapping to cover specific distances,

or clubbing for specific kinds of shots and then improvising for distance control.

Ok, this post is sort of getting at my issue.  

Ive made some significant accuracy improvements off the tee with a properly fit driver recently.  However, the traditional issue prior to that…is that my accuracy, my ability to hit a narrow fairway…didn’t seem to increase at all with the 3W or the 3H.  
 

I think the move away from the current 13.5* 3W is a must.  It’s just determining if that’s a 15, 16.5….or if the distance drop to an 18 is worth it if it gives me a club I trust on those tighter holes.

That decision, then leads me to the Hybrid discussion.  I’ve played quite a few courses this summer with long Par 3’s.  What can I trust off the box there?  I feel really comfortable with a 210 yard hole.  230 yards and I’m left without a club in the bag that I’m REALLY confident in to hit the green.

but to the quoted post point…certain shots need different clubs…even if the distance is the same.  

 

[Shapotomous]

I've read more than a few times that a good reliable 3w is the club that pro's hold onto the longest (except maybe a putter) because it is the hardest for them to get dialed in.  I think some of those same difficulties translate into our recreational games.  Some 3w's behave better off the deck than off the tee for me, some had nothing in them but a left miss, some were way too hook faced and I couldn't get any altitude with them.  For me if the face is square to slightly open to my eye then its all about getting the shaft that gets the  trajectory I want consistently.  As others have said figure out what you need from the club (distance, tee or fw or both, trajectory or shot shape) and either get fit or experiment on your own to fill that slot.  I am a mix of self fit & then experiment since that is the most fun for me.

If tight dispersion is the main goal over distance you may want to try a flex stiffer than 'normal'.  I had a 13.5* TM 3w in the bag for quite a few years that 'worked' and when I took it out for a stinger club last year SWMBO tried it and it has stayed in her bag.  It would be universally agreed that the shaft is way too stiff for her ss but she hits it consistently straight and it is gapped between her driver (R flex) & 4w (S flex).  I guess I need to find another one for my bag as it doesn't seem like she is giving that one up or that 4w i picked up from a member here.  But the course I play the most I really don't need that distance in my bag, a 15* hybrid at about 225 is the longest driver alternative I really need so there hasn't been any urgency.

[thefullmonte]

7 hours ago, Shapotomous said:

I've read more than a few times that a good reliable 3w is the club that pro's hold onto the longest (except maybe a putter) because it is the hardest for them to get dialed in.  I think some of those same difficulties translate into our recreational games.  Some 3w's behave better off the deck than off the tee for me, some had nothing in them but a left miss, some were way too hook faced and I couldn't get any altitude with them.  For me if the face is square to slightly open to my eye then its all about getting the shaft that gets the  trajectory I want consistently.  As others have said figure out what you need from the club (distance, tee or fw or both, trajectory or shot shape) and either get fit or experiment on your own to fill that slot.  I am a mix of self fit & then experiment since that is the most fun for me.

If tight dispersion is the main goal over distance you may want to try a flex stiffer than 'normal'.  I had a 13.5* TM 3w in the bag for quite a few years that 'worked' and when I took it out for a stinger club last year SWMBO tried it and it has stayed in her bag.  It would be universally agreed that the shaft is way too stiff for her ss but she hits it consistently straight and it is gapped between her driver (R flex) & 4w (S flex).  I guess I need to find another one for my bag as it doesn't seem like she is giving that one up or that 4w i picked up from a member here.  But the course I play the most I really don't need that distance in my bag, a 15* hybrid at about 225 is the longest driver alternative I really need so there hasn't been any urgency.

Based on some of the fitting stuff I went through with the driver....I think I have too light of a shaft in both the current 3W and 3H; especially in the 3W.  Plus, I'm likely could benefit from a higher loft as well.

[korsmot]

I am not really sure this is about gapping.

I really think this is more about more consistency (Hooks and slices?) with the 3w, so your options are: Change the 3W to one you hit just as far but you "hit better", fix the swing issue that is causing the inconsistency, or give up some distance to increase consistency.   By generic definition, the higher the lofted club the less dispersion you will have.  That's the physics part, not accounting for "I don't like this club" mental side of it.

I agree you need a fairway "finder" shot, 3W, knockdown driver, 5W.

If you want to talk gapping, I  would recommend you start from the other side of the club list related to gapping, from Lob wedge going down, are your other 11 clubs (LW to lowest club not 3W or D) all gapped well?  10-15 yards apart in full stock shot distances?  I fully believe you want your "hole" in the gapping (if you have one, down in the low woods / plus 200 yard range)

Ideally, there would be no hole but the gaps would get a little larger as the clubs get longer.  Most people just can't accurately hit FW woods and Low Hybrids precisely enough.  

Example for me: 7I =160, 6I=170, 5I =180, 5W=200 3W= 230 D=250.  You can see my irons run about 10 yards apart then pushes open in the woods.  How often are you hitting 200 plus yards using FW woods into the green?  But if you are using them off the tee, you are trying to get them into a particular area, i.e. short of a bunker/water, to a nice wedge distance on a short par 4, etc, and you have a much bigger circle to land it in vice the green.

BTW, I don't have an iron below 5 iron because they keep jacking the PW lofts and I like to have good gaps in my wedges (60, 56, 52, 48, PW) and I like using a LW.  If I took out the LW, I would add a hybrid to 190 yards (also nice to putt with out of the rough)  Lots of people don't like LW and have extra club slot for a hybrid or 4I or 5 W.

Just remember that 1/2 of all shots will be inside a 100 yards.  That is also where all the scoring is.

Cheers

Tigger

[thefullmonte]

Ok, so first two plunges in this experiment 

I picked up a TSI2 18* fairway wood (that needs a new shaft) and a 24* TSI2 Hybrid that should be here later this week.  
 

Looking for the Hybrid to fit the “long par 3” hole in the bag.  When demoing the fairway wood, I hit that exact combo I purchased…and it was the best feeling hybrid I’ve ever hit.  
 

The Fairway wood has a 70g HZRDUS RDX shaft in it; like to get a 80 or 85g in there ASAP. But even that was consistently 215-220-ish.  

Will start with these two and see where we go.

[NRJyzr]

I wonder if you should just try a somewhat shorter and slightly heavier fairway wood.  It can even be close to the same loft as your 3w.  

Personally, I've recently done this with my own 3w.  I managed to find 90g and even 100g+ shafts that I could plug in to one of my 3w's.  It's helped with consistency quite a bit.  They're not easy to find, but they're still out there.  My current options have been RIP Alpha 80, RIP Beta 90, and NV105, the last being essentially impossible these days.

I realize I'm chiming in a little late. 
 

[thefullmonte]

The shafts in the existing clubs were without question too light.

 

even the last 12 hours, I’m trying to shop for a heavier shaft in the new fairway wood…and I can’t find anything without spending more on a shaft than I did the club

[NRJyzr]

If you're a Stiff flex guy, and like the NV, here's an NV95 S
https://www.ebay.com/itm/383603831953?epid=1502300808&hash=item595091f491:g:hGYAAOxyUrZSsgV-

Same seller has an RIP Beta 90 X, if that hits your target (this was my source for my two RIP Beta 90 shafts).  There's also some Tour Green and Tour Blue 85 shafts of various flexes available in their store.

Disclaimer:  unaffiliated with them, other than as a (repeat) customer
 

Edited September 22, 2021 by NRJyzr

[KDM0716]

I went to a 5W & 7W and my consistency has increased tremendously. I never could hit a hybrid consistently. Adjusted the 7W to play at 23 degrees and fits perfectly between my 5W and 5i. The trajectory is nice and high and lands softly. It holds well into most greens and it has actually become one of my favorite clubs. 

[thefullmonte]

5 hours ago, KDM0716 said:

I went to a 5W & 7W and my consistency has increased tremendously. I never could hit a hybrid consistently. Adjusted the 7W to play at 23 degrees and fits perfectly between my 5W and 5i. The trajectory is nice and high and lands softly. It holds well into most greens and it has actually become one of my favorite clubs. 

Today was the first round with the new 5W in the bag.   I still want to get a slightly heavier shaft in it, but I had a couple beautiful shots that really surprised me.

 

I’ll say this, I am absolutely smitten with the new Titleist TSi2 line.  

[thefullmonte]

Feedback here has been extremely helpful.  Wanted to provide an update and ask another question.  
 

5 Wood had another dynamite day on the course; last two rounds have been the lowest scores of the season.  Couldn’t be happier with mew additions to the bag.

5W has been consistently between 220-235 yards with the heavier (loaner from a friend) shaft in.  

Today was first day on the course with the TSi2 5 Hybrid.  The intent here was for something on long Par 3’s and more difficult lies.  Absolutely delivered today in both categories.  Even had an Eagle where I stuck the Hybrid about 15 ft from the pin.

This is going to be sort of an odd comment…but I almost feel like there isn’t quite enough gap between the two though.  The Hybrid was 210-ish on a couple shots.

Given the difference in the ball flights, I’m thinking the similarity isn’t the biggest issue.  But I’m almost tempted to either loft the Hybrid up…or add another hybrid???  It’s already a 24* and it almost feels absurd to go for another 

[RickyBobby_PR]

6 hours ago, thefullmonte said:

Feedback here has been extremely helpful.  Wanted to provide an update and ask another question.  
 

5 Wood had another dynamite day on the course; last two rounds have been the lowest scores of the season.  Couldn’t be happier with mew additions to the bag.

5W has been consistently between 220-235 yards with the heavier (loaner from a friend) shaft in.  

Today was first day on the course with the TSi2 5 Hybrid.  The intent here was for something on long Par 3’s and more difficult lies.  Absolutely delivered today in both categories.  Even had an Eagle where I stuck the Hybrid about 15 ft from the pin.

This is going to be sort of an odd comment…but I almost feel like there isn’t quite enough gap between the two though.  The Hybrid was 210-ish on a couple shots.

Given the difference in the ball flights, I’m thinking the similarity isn’t the biggest issue.  But I’m almost tempted to either loft the Hybrid up…or add another hybrid???  It’s already a 24* and it almost feels absurd to go for another 

You have at least a 10 yard gap and as much as a 25 yard gap between the hybrid and 5w that’s not too similar and where most people should be, although the 15 yard gap in the 5w between shots is a lot I’m guessing that’s more of a strike/swing issue. 
 

Unless you have a big gap between the hybrid and the iron below it i don’t see a need to add another hybrid. Playing with the loft settings to tweak the hybrid or the 5w is where I would start.

Then if still debating on adding a club go find a fitter who offers bag gapping and have the numbers analyzed to see what works best for your needs and swing and then setup the bag based on that 

[cnosil]

7 hours ago, thefullmonte said:

5W has been consistently between 220-235 yards 

The Hybrid was 210-ish on a couple shots.

 

What you are describing is 227 on average with the 5w and average of 210 with the hybrid.  Seems like a good gapping.    Golf clubs are like shotguns and not sniper rifles..it is a dispersion circle not a dispersion do.  some shots go longer and some shorter and there may be a slight overlap between the club above and below.   

[thefullmonte]

4 hours ago, cnosil said:

What you are describing is 227 on average with the 5w and average of 210 with the hybrid.  Seems like a good gapping.    Golf clubs are like shotguns and not sniper rifles..it is a dispersion circle not a dispersion do.  some shots go longer and some shorter and there may be a slight overlap between the club above and below.   

I was incredibly pleased with the left to right dispersion; but less confident in the distance dispersion with the Hybrid.  I carded an eagle yesterday with it sticking the second shot from 200-ish.  But the last hole I was 210 out and flew the green by 15 yards.   My irons are usually really consistent re distance.  I’m guessing that’s something that likely comes with a few more rounds with it in the bag.