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Is the 60º wedge really that hard?


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On 10/26/2021 at 12:06 AM, brutal brutus said:

Nah, what you really need instead of a 60°, is a 55° Sand Hybrid...

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LOL

LOL If I find one at the thrifts or a yard sale I would purchase it if it was cheap enough. Just to mess with for kicks and giggles around the yard. I do not front line play such equipment but love messing around with it

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Driver ---- Honma G1_X Stock tuned Honma R shaft---- 3 wood TM V-Steel Aldila 65G R Flex 15*--- 7 Wood TM V-Steel UST Pro Force 65 R flex 21*---- 9 wood TM V-Steel stock MAS Stiff shaft 24*---  Irons 4 thru 9 Mac Muirfield TT black label R-- PW Hogan Starburst 50* --- SW Cleveland 588 56*--- LW Cleveland 588 60*--- Putter -- Yep it is back Rusty Scotty Santa Fe 1997 vintage. Bag Old School Jones Original non stand

 

 

 

 

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On 10/18/2021 at 8:47 PM, Mackdaddy9 said:

I had an aha moment about 15 years ago hitting a 60* wedge and it helped me breaking 80.  

1) You have to hit the 60* about twice as hard as the distance looks like you would need to swing.

2) You have to turn through the shot with your hips and shoulders, even if it is just a small turn.  When you don't turn your hips and shoulders the tendency is to swing all arms and decelerate.  I find that the harder I swing the the more distance gets lost to height.  

I have seen a few people saying they don't want the hands forward in the stance.  I hope that they are still soling the club flat which tilts the shaft forward, you still need to have the grip in the center of your stance but the club will be soled back in your stance.  I see lots of people opening the face to about 80* because they want the head in the center of their stance it rarely works out for them.  

I was recently in Myrtle Beach where the Bermuda grass and it's long roots made hitting my 6* wedge crazy hard to hit.  I tried it on the first day and it was a nightmare for 9 holes.  At the turn I went to the car and got a 12* bounce lob wedge and after a few shots to adjust my feel I started to hit my normal excellent wedge shots.  On tight woven Bermuda grass a higher bounce wedge with a wider sole is very helpful in preventing digging.

Yep you have it correct on the Bermuda rough down here. My home course the Bermuda rough is not so penalizing due to it not being a resort course so to speak but being geared more towards the retirees. As SOP for me I only carry 12 clubs with only 2 wedges and that leaves me room to add where it is needed for different courses. Now for those who do not know me I play older stuff with my PW at 48* so I do not need a gap wedge and go straight to my 56*. I know how to loft up or deloft as needed. But I will concur on some courses with thick Bermuda rough and fluffy greenside bunkers I will slip a 60* in. On the 60* I have several with different bounces and sole grinds to suit my needs. I mess around my yard some with the 60* wedges and say like I know I am playing a course on Saturday I need a 60 on then I will practice my selected one

Driver ---- Honma G1_X Stock tuned Honma R shaft---- 3 wood TM V-Steel Aldila 65G R Flex 15*--- 7 Wood TM V-Steel UST Pro Force 65 R flex 21*---- 9 wood TM V-Steel stock MAS Stiff shaft 24*---  Irons 4 thru 9 Mac Muirfield TT black label R-- PW Hogan Starburst 50* --- SW Cleveland 588 56*--- LW Cleveland 588 60*--- Putter -- Yep it is back Rusty Scotty Santa Fe 1997 vintage. Bag Old School Jones Original non stand

 

 

 

 

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On 10/18/2021 at 5:43 PM, IONEPUTT said:

 

I totally understand what you are saying about what some coaches have to say about what to use. I remember a time I was playing a round with a local golf instructor, and I had about 25 yards to the flag and in deep rough. I pulled out my 60* wedge and set up to play a Flop shot, and the instructor told me to stop and play a regular Pitch shot instead, as it was a "Higher Percentage Shot". I told him "Not if it's what I practice the most". I went ahead and played my Flop shot with the face wide open and made a pretty big swing. Ball landed a few feet from the flag and left me with a simple "TAP IN" for birdie. That's when he told me it was pure LUCK and I could do it again. So I dropped another ball and did it again, only to have the ball end up inside 3 feet for another easy putt. That's when I told him a second time it's NOT a low percentage shot when it's the shot I practice the most. Needless to say, he didn't tell me what type of shot to play around the greens after that. 

I am going to be harsh here----- Most swing gurus/ pros do not know what they are talking about. They want to jump to conclusions based on the book and percentages.  They can not fathom someone thinking outside the box of normal thinking. I do my own thing how I want to do it. I go against the modern grain in the fact I do a lot of bump and run 8 iron or 5 iron shots around the greens. Also any time I can get that putter in my hand I do so. Sounds like you have your act together on that shot and you have confidence in it. Confidence and trust and knowing your game is the key here despite what the book or swing gurus say. I never was an instructor nor wanted to be even when I was a Class A PGA because I have never believed there is one etched in stone proper way to play this game. Yep If I had been playing with you I would have given you your well deserved kudos for that shot as in " that man is good around the greens with that 60"

Driver ---- Honma G1_X Stock tuned Honma R shaft---- 3 wood TM V-Steel Aldila 65G R Flex 15*--- 7 Wood TM V-Steel UST Pro Force 65 R flex 21*---- 9 wood TM V-Steel stock MAS Stiff shaft 24*---  Irons 4 thru 9 Mac Muirfield TT black label R-- PW Hogan Starburst 50* --- SW Cleveland 588 56*--- LW Cleveland 588 60*--- Putter -- Yep it is back Rusty Scotty Santa Fe 1997 vintage. Bag Old School Jones Original non stand

 

 

 

 

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On 10/18/2021 at 5:54 PM, crimea_river said:

This discussion is meaningless because of QC. Odds are your wedge’s loft is within (-3; +3) of its stated loft.

General public I would somewhat agree. In my case I have my own loft and lie machine and know how to use it plus I have my flat plate and my bounce gauges

Driver ---- Honma G1_X Stock tuned Honma R shaft---- 3 wood TM V-Steel Aldila 65G R Flex 15*--- 7 Wood TM V-Steel UST Pro Force 65 R flex 21*---- 9 wood TM V-Steel stock MAS Stiff shaft 24*---  Irons 4 thru 9 Mac Muirfield TT black label R-- PW Hogan Starburst 50* --- SW Cleveland 588 56*--- LW Cleveland 588 60*--- Putter -- Yep it is back Rusty Scotty Santa Fe 1997 vintage. Bag Old School Jones Original non stand

 

 

 

 

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I use a 60* sometimes and it can be very useful. The reason I don’t use it more is the risk of blading it with the relatively long swing required. Just last Friday I was 40 yards from the pin, and bladed it. My next shot was 60 yards from the pin on the other side. Ouch. That’s the risk with higher and higher lofts for anyone…

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3 hours ago, Middler said:

I use a 60* sometimes and it can be very useful. The reason I don’t use it more is the risk of blading it with the relatively long swing required. Just last Friday I was 40 yards from the pin, and bladed it. My next shot was 60 yards from the pin on the other side. Ouch. That’s the risk with higher and higher lofts for anyone…

Yeah you have to practice them---- Back when I gambled and played Mini Tours I played or practiced darn near every day so I got good with one. When I retired from comp and gambling I did not play or practice as much so I basically got to doing exactly what you described. One of the reasons I went mostly 48 PW and 56 SW. Now when I played Saturday I blasted like 2 shots at 60 yards over the pin. Hit the good. My partner was like WTF? I had not been hitting the 56 that far in a while. Got to looking at the grass mark both times and I had flushed it. I have been hitting balls like everyday last week and my ballstriking is coming back evidently. Also narrowing my stance and doing a shorter swing has helped me keep my balance and so I am hitting the ball more solid. Got one of my 60* out in the yard today and i was hitting it solid and about 60 yards so it may be back in the bag again for regular play. I will see on that

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Driver ---- Honma G1_X Stock tuned Honma R shaft---- 3 wood TM V-Steel Aldila 65G R Flex 15*--- 7 Wood TM V-Steel UST Pro Force 65 R flex 21*---- 9 wood TM V-Steel stock MAS Stiff shaft 24*---  Irons 4 thru 9 Mac Muirfield TT black label R-- PW Hogan Starburst 50* --- SW Cleveland 588 56*--- LW Cleveland 588 60*--- Putter -- Yep it is back Rusty Scotty Santa Fe 1997 vintage. Bag Old School Jones Original non stand

 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, BIG STU said:

Yeah you have to practice them---- Back when I gambled and played Mini Tours I played or practiced darn near every day so I got good with one.

 

... Anti Iverson, before back surgery when I could practice, I used to play 18 with a pard about 2-3 times a week. After 18 we would play #10 and #11 a second time as #11 ended near the parking lot and was a green that offered everything from trees and bushes to bunkers and deep rough. We would play a game until it got to dark where we took turns picking difficult locations and whoever got up and down in the least strokes won. Usually 15-20 different shots from under/over trees and bushes, stepped on in the bunker, deep rough or hardpan, etc. Really sharpened our short game and didn't feel like practice because we were competing but of course it was just rewarding practice.

... Any kind of practice you can do that is a challenge and fun is always a great way to get in some rewarding reps. When learning and struggling it is easy to just practice but once you get better, it can be boring and repetitive so finding ways to make it fun is always a bonus. 

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20 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... Anti Iverson, before back surgery when I could practice, I used to play 18 with a pard about 2-3 times a week. After 18 we would play #10 and #11 a second time as #11 ended near the parking lot and was a green that offered everything from trees and bushes to bunkers and deep rough. We would play a game until it got to dark where we took turns picking difficult locations and whoever got up and down in the least strokes won. Usually 15-20 different shots from under/over trees and bushes, stepped on in the bunker, deep rough or hardpan, etc. Really sharpened our short game and didn't feel like practice because we were competing but of course it was just rewarding practice.

... Any kind of practice you can do that is a challenge and fun is always a great way to get in some rewarding reps. When learning and struggling it is easy to just practice but once you get better, it can be boring and repetitive so finding ways to make it fun is always a bonus. 

I have always invented ways on the short game to hit shots. Back when I was a kid the 7th hole on our par 3 course was right beside our house. I kept an old wedge and 5 balls in the pump house. Used to hit all kinds of shots especially on the weekends when the big course was crowded. Also used to sneak over to the 3rd hole on the par 3 course and play 3 4 5 6 & 7 because the old man could not see me from the club house. What was so funny when I returned like 19 years later and worked there some the old Wilson wedge was still in the pump house. Rusty as heck. Wish I knew then what I know now because I think that wedge was a 58 Staff which was worn slap out anyhow.

We used to do exactly what you described a few years back at my then home course Indian Wells. We had a whole bunch doing crazy shots closest to the hole for $1. I remember one night we had really gotten it going had one of the assts cars in the chute with lights on and my PU on the end lights on. My wife pulled up saw what was going on shook her head and left. I think I got home like 10:00 that night.

I used to do the trick Ricky Fowler did the other day turning a wedge on its toe and hitting left handed. I actually used to practice it. Got to thinking last week I knew I could do it with a 588 Cleveland but wondered if I could do it with the high toe PM 56. Yep I can. One of the old Curmudgeons asked why I was doing that. I told him because I still can and besides I play my shots in normal play not kick them out 2 club lengths or more like they do. 

For me trick shots were always fun and still are. My Old Man who was by the book hated me doing that. Told me I ought to be a trick shot artist. I still do it when I practice. The other day the wind was blowing straight into my face on the range. I had like 108 to the pin on the first practice green. I got tired of hitting the high cut 8 iron and switched to a shoulder high 30 yard cut 5 iron. Yeah I love stuff like that. My old course the small putting green was right beside the starter shack and the tourons never used it. Good for me my starter buds used to give me bad lies and such to see what I would do---- yeah fun practice for me---- Now days since I am feeling better I have started doing some of my trick shots again mostly from behind the range shack where the ball dispenser is where the old farts will not bother me by asking questions

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Driver ---- Honma G1_X Stock tuned Honma R shaft---- 3 wood TM V-Steel Aldila 65G R Flex 15*--- 7 Wood TM V-Steel UST Pro Force 65 R flex 21*---- 9 wood TM V-Steel stock MAS Stiff shaft 24*---  Irons 4 thru 9 Mac Muirfield TT black label R-- PW Hogan Starburst 50* --- SW Cleveland 588 56*--- LW Cleveland 588 60*--- Putter -- Yep it is back Rusty Scotty Santa Fe 1997 vintage. Bag Old School Jones Original non stand

 

 

 

 

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... Many with todays equipment that wants to go hit and straight never think of "unusual" shots. I like to play rounds every now and then using one club only. My favorites are using only a 5 iron or a 5 wood. Everything means chipping and putting too. Teaches you so much from course management to using your imagination, which is in short supply on the golf course today. 

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I love the low bounce 60° for greenside finesse shots but it goes nowhere on full swings.

If you hit it harder, it just goes higher, not further.

With so little bounce, you can't play it back in your stance to hood the loft, because it could dig in.

 

In the end, the 58° is the more versatile wedge for me.

I still want the minimal bounce for finesse shots, however.

 

With the SM8 and SM9 versions, Titleist eliminated the L Grind 58-04. 

It was my favorite wedge since the zero bounce 58 that Cleveland featured decades ago in their 691 line, 

well hidden behind the iconic 588 models that I'm sure you remember. 

 

Well, there's a company in Arizona called The Iron Factory.

(That's in our actor-friend's part of the world, I believe.)

They will strip and rechrome your old wedge.

They will repaint the stampings and fill in any you don't like.

They will swingweight the clubhead to go with your new shaft and grip.

They will obviously get the loft and lie angles precise.

Then they will machine cover-shredding, non-conforming box grooves for aggressive spin if that's what you want.

(That's what I want.)

And it will all cost more than a brand new wedge, so you better know what you want.

 

They're doing my SM6 58-04 right now.

But if I discover that I absolutely NEED a new sixty, which I doubt,

the 60-04 is still in the SM9 line.    Just the 58-04 is missing.

 

 

 

 

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To put it as simply as I know how, the most difficult club in the bag is the one that you spend the least amount of time trying to get good at. 

IMO, the high lofted wedge just doesn't get as much attention as it deserves in the practicing lineup, therefore earning it an unjustified title of "difficult" club. 

 

 

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For me, I don’t see the 60 as being particularly hard to hit. I also don’t think I am any better with my 58 that I use now than I was with the 60 I used to use. If you had me hit both clubs at a target I’d say both were equally easy and good.

All this said, since I switched to a 58 the outcome of my chipping during rounds has become noticeably better and more consistent. Take that as you will.

 

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My vote is YES.. I don't carry one. Never had success with it. I rarely use my 56 either (But I don't play a courses with a lot of sand bunkers).  I think that the transition from 56 to 60, somewhere in that loft range, is where I see shots that tend to slip up the face and end up short, or I blade them across the green because I had to swing harder than I am comfortable with from short distance. 

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At one point used a old Vokey 60/4 for all chips, really any shot inside 75 yards.  Hit everything high with spin.  Practiced using that club all the time.  Got really good at using it.  Left that club on a green on vacation and have never found one I like as much.  These days carry 50/8 54/12 58/4 but almost chip exclusively with the 54.  I use the 58 primary for full approach shots inside 100 yards.  Try to keep the ball lower these days with some roll out on chips.  One of my goals this year is to practice chips and pitches with less loft and get good at using different clubs for different shots.  Trying to keep the ball low more often.  Big change from my old technique, but gradually have been moving in that direction.  Plan on buying new wedges this year when more get released.  Might skip any form of "lob" wedge and throw my old 2 iron back in the bag.   

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It's not hard if you understand how to use it and where it fits your game.  It's a specialized club just like a driver or a putter and has its time to use and it's time to leave it in the bag.  It is a specialized animal and when used right when it is needed can be a stroke saver.   Don't carry one because everyone else does - practice and understand to see if it fits a a gap in your game.  I have one but it took a year to tame it.  Now it is a three different swing club for me and gets used half a dozen times per round.

 

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For me the 60 degree is a wasted club in the bag.  Too few situations where it is necessary/handy and you can make a 56 degree wedge do what you need and it is a much more versatile and useful club over a round.

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On 10/4/2021 at 8:08 AM, NRJyzr said:

Not all 60* wedges are the same.  

I've carried a 60 on and off over the years, and found the sole and bounce are key for me.  I do a little less well with the Tom Watson Scoring System 60*, it doesn't have a lot of bounce.  The Maltby Design 60* I got from GolfWorks is much better.  It has a low bounce angle, but a wider sole, which increases the effective bounce.  I've found it works well in chipping and the like.  

That said, I've found I can generally get away with even a moderately high bounce 56* with no higher lofts in my bag.  I'm able to open the club to do what I wish to for shorter shots, and use a form of the Pelz clock theory for short to mid range pitches.

I expect my results may not apply to all.  😉
 

Completely agree. I have a range of wedges, and every one is different. I have a Sub 70 that I'm comfortably chipping from 20 feet to 80 yards, and I have a 64 Cleveland that I'm not comfortably hitting for any distance at all but can flop from 30 yards and drop it dead. If I try to work the ball from a distance with the Cleveland, certain death awaits. But from a sand trap? I get out of sand traps more than 9 times out of 10 on the first attempt, and I nearly always cover most of the distance to the pin. And that's with the 64. I wouldn't use ANY other wedge from the trap. 

I guess the point is like yours—it all depends on the player and the club.  

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On 10/2/2021 at 11:37 AM, Middler said:

Or maybe because:

  • you usually don't need that much loft, unless you play on a course with hazards everywhere around most greens
  • starting online is just easier with a lower lofted club because it's a shorter swing, e.g. a 9i vs a 60º
  • hitting thin with a 60º results in the worst outcome vs another loft (way long)
  • with a fluffy lie, the danger of going under the ball and hitting off the top of the face results in the worst outcome vs any other loft (way short) - often compounded because most players use a 60º when short sided going over a bunker, water, etc. that you're now in, defeating the original purpose

If you make your 60º your go to club for all chipping, and practice with it more than any other wedge, it could indeed be more versatile. That would lessen but not eliminate the mishit pitfalls. It is a harder club to get good at because of the high loft, no matter what bounce.

Because I have room in my 14 club limit, I carry a 60º low bounce (and a 56º high bounce) and I have had some great results with it when short sided, but I've had enough mishits that I won't use it unless it's the only choice. I use it less than once a round, a true special purpose club for me. YMMV

Though I don't disagree, I think the main reason people don't play them, at least with any skills, is because they are too busy trying to figure out how to eke another 3 yards out of their driver instead of how to chip a left bend around a tree to land on the green 30 yards away while not hitting any branches. 'Cause where's the fun in that? 

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I think it really depends on how much you practice. I would argue that anyone can become a great 60 wedge player if they play around with it enough to be comfortable. I like many others try to limit my 60 use to only when I need to carry a bunker or have no green to work with. I find I need less practice to get it close with a 9 iron than I do with a 60, although I have done both.

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I have a 17.4 index and I use a 60 degree wedge.  I grew up on hard flat courses and I use a sweeping swing path.  I use it for short-sided shots as I do not spin the ball as much as most golfers especially over bunkers or lakes when the pin is tucked behind them.  May not be the best shot for must but works for me.
 

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