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Is the 60º wedge really that hard?


BostonSal
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On 10/2/2021 at 2:22 PM, BostonSal said:

I've seen many posts where someone or other was quoted as saying that the average recreational player doesn't need such a lofted wedge.

Having experimented with the sixty since it was first introduced and eventually adopting it as a regular inclusion, I would opine that it depends on the sixty.

 

A low bounce sixty is for playing a somewhat skilled shot from forward in the stance.  

It's not a regular golf swing.  It has an exaggerated follow through and requires actually learning a specialty shot.  

I play the shot despite not being near scratch level, but I've played it for a long enough time to not get nervous or quit on it.

So maybe the low bounce sixty isn't for everybody.

 

A higher bounce sixty is played more like a regular wedge shot.

The ball is back in your stance.

Your hands are well in front, effectively delofting the club.

Once you get past the apprehension that you're swinging a little harder than you feel comfortable swinging for the length of the shot, it becomes just another club.

 

That's my take on the sixty.  If you don't play the sixty with bounce, it's mostly because it's not one of your 14 most needed clubs, not because it's particularly hard.

If you don't play the low bounce sixty, it's just because you're not interested in learning that shot or don't need it enough to worry about it.

Neither one is absolutely necessary to play with.  Either one can be played with practice.

 

i've used a 58' with 8' bounce for the last 20 years open it around the green n in the bunker.....I grew up with a Scottish Pro who gave me a hickory Mashie club to work with...I guess that is why the strength of my game is around the greens.....I learned how to open and hit high n low shots.....if you do not try it you will not like it.......would not leave home without the club

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I'm an 18 handicap and couldn't play without my 60 degree wedge.  I use it for most shots from up to 70 yards out, "flop" shots around the green, and to get out of bunkers with firm or wet sand.  Far from being a more difficult club to hit, the confidence that I can get it up quickly and land soft make it much easier for me than a normal sand wedge for these shots.

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On 10/2/2021 at 2:22 PM, BostonSal said:

I've seen many posts where someone or other was quoted as saying that the average recreational player doesn't need such a lofted wedge.

Having experimented with the sixty since it was first introduced and eventually adopting it as a regular inclusion, I would opine that it depends on the sixty.

 

A low bounce sixty is for playing a somewhat skilled shot from forward in the stance.  

It's not a regular golf swing.  It has an exaggerated follow through and requires actually learning a specialty shot.  

I play the shot despite not being near scratch level, but I've played it for a long enough time to not get nervous or quit on it.

So maybe the low bounce sixty isn't for everybody.

 

A higher bounce sixty is played more like a regular wedge shot.

The ball is back in your stance.

Your hands are well in front, effectively delofting the club.

Once you get past the apprehension that you're swinging a little harder than you feel comfortable swinging for the length of the shot, it becomes just another club.

 

That's my take on the sixty.  If you don't play the sixty with bounce, it's mostly because it's not one of your 14 most needed clubs, not because it's particularly hard.

If you don't play the low bounce sixty, it's just because you're not interested in learning that shot or don't need it enough to worry about it.

Neither one is absolutely necessary to play with.  Either one can be played with practice.

 

Nope. Wrong minded about wedges in general. If you play on courses where the fairways are flat, most courses will feature mounding in front of greens. A 60 is not only perfect but required(unless you want to open up your 56 or 58. 

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I tried a 60 with varying degrees of bounce.  Hit it thin or fat.  I grew up with a 56, learned how to be creative, open or close the face, ball positions depending on the shot.   I’ll stick with the Vokey 56

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I currently changed my wedge set up and carry a 52 and 58 but for most of the year carried a 60. I never really used it for full out swings unless the lie dictated it. Great for short bunker shots, hitting over a green side bunker or other hazards. I don’t carry a low bounce 60 or 58 because as you said, I don’t need it for the minimal times I’d use it. My current 58 has got 12 degrees. I have a fairly steep swing and it’s very versatile for me. I also have friends who carry nothing higher than a 56. I hate to admit that I use it because unfortunately I don’t hit enough greens. 

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On 10/2/2021 at 11:22 AM, BostonSal said:

I've seen many posts where someone or other was quoted as saying that the average recreational player doesn't need such a lofted wedge.

Having experimented with the sixty since it was first introduced and eventually adopting it as a regular inclusion, I would opine that it depends on the sixty.

 

A low bounce sixty is for playing a somewhat skilled shot from forward in the stance.  

It's not a regular golf swing.  It has an exaggerated follow through and requires actually learning a specialty shot.  

I play the shot despite not being near scratch level, but I've played it for a long enough time to not get nervous or quit on it.

So maybe the low bounce sixty isn't for everybody.

 

A higher bounce sixty is played more like a regular wedge shot.

The ball is back in your stance.

Your hands are well in front, effectively delofting the club.

Once you get past the apprehension that you're swinging a little harder than you feel comfortable swinging for the length of the shot, it becomes just another club.

 

That's my take on the sixty.  If you don't play the sixty with bounce, it's mostly because it's not one of your 14 most needed clubs, not because it's particularly hard.

If you don't play the low bounce sixty, it's just because you're not interested in learning that shot or don't need it enough to worry about it.

Neither one is absolutely necessary to play with.  Either one can be played with practice.

 

I agree on the high bounce 60 wedge. I use one and find it relatively easy to use. I just need to hit the ground directly under the back edge of the ball and it pops up like it should. It makes a loud thump from hitting the ground. The wedge also works well from the sand around the green. The ball gets up quickly and the wide sole prevents digging. The ball stops pretty quickly with some spin.

Callaway 816 Alpha DBD driver, 3 wood, 5 wood, Alpha 815 3 hybrid, RAZR X Forged cavity back irons 3-AW, 54-14 MD4 wedge, Maltby MS+ wide grind 60 degree lob wedge, 37 inch Rife Swithback Two putter. All clubs overlength - 47 inch driver, 45 inch 3wood, 44 inch 5 wood, 41 inch 3 hybrid, 39.5 inch 5 iron with other irons in line with that. All clubs graphite shafted and X-flex except flex of putter.

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I see the biggest issue with a 60° wedge from players who are struggling.. is that they try to use it on every shot. Instead of applying a pitch and run when needed or a skipped spinner they will try to fly it exactly to the hole. 

They wind up blading it or leaving it way too short. If you can learn what lies or shots that can apply to a 60° it can make playing that club relatively easy. 

My $.02

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I have had Vokey 60* wedge for several years and just last week purchased a used 62* for a second set I keep in Florida. I can pretty much use a 58, 60 or 62* wedge for the same shots as needed.

Driver: :taylormade-small: Stealth Plus - 10.5*, Oban Kiyoshi Purple O4Flex-65 Grams Purred
3 Wood: :taylormade-small: SIM - 15*, Graphite Design Tour AD DJ5 Stiff
Hybrid: :titelist-small: TS3 - 19*, Hzrdus Smoke 6.0 Stiff
Irons: :titelist-small:  7 - PW T100S, 4 -6 T200 all with Nippon NS Pro 880 AMC Chrome Stiff 

Irons: :cobra-small: 4 - PW King Forged Tec with Aerotech Steelfiber I95 Stiff

Wedges:  :titelist-small: Vokey SM 8 - 50*, 56*, 60*  Standard Wedge Shafts   

Putter:  :scotty-cameron-1: Phantom X 5.5           
Putter:  :scotty-cameron-1: Studio Select Newport 1.5
Ball: :titelist-small: Pro V1 or Maxfli Tour

 

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I use 58, 52, and 48.  Don't really consider 58&60 to be all that different.  I use it for full shot yardage gap. 

A lot of players add loft to the club, especially to irons and wedges, through impact.  The lob wedge can become a liability for many of those people from the fairway.  

Around the greens, it's questionable if the " average" golfer benefits from a higher lofted club. 

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I use the LW , learn to use the bounce and  and allowing myself hit fat a bit was my key to develop confidence    Only thing is  hitting thin and bladed LW comes of the blue when least expect it

I believe in risk free chipping  lower loft clubs around the green when all I need is a simple rollout

Short chips around the green that need  one bounce and rollout I just been closing the SW or PW    was more accurate than closing LW for me .

Dont see as many player practicing with their irons around the green , but  occasionally for long chip with much green to work with I will take out the long iron and aim off the toe and gives me nice controlled chip

 

 

 

 

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I play a 58* lob wedge because of gapping.  Hitting lob wedge is not hard once you learn how.  

Keys I have learned over the years:

1)  when you sole the wedge you will notice that the shaft leans about 35*-40* forward.

    A) you need to set up with the grip centered in you stance not the ball or

    B) if you play the ball in the middle of your stance you are adding loft making it about a 68* wedge.  It feels like it is still soled but in fact it is sitting on the bounce.

2) you need to turn your hips & chest, even on very short shots, if you swing your arms without turning you open the blade more and expose the leading edge because you flip your hands at the bottom of the swing.  This is the error I see most wedge strugglers have.  It also makes decelerating a big issue.

3)  Speed effects both how far and how high the ball will go

    A)  so to add distance you need to add more speed than you do with less lofted clubs because the energy is split in height and distance 

    B)  we often loss perspective of distance around the green.  for example if you hit a full lob wedge 75 yards, 50 yards 3/4 wedge and 25 yard 1/2 wedge.   most greens are 25 yards long so when you are just short of reaching the green and hitting to the back pin it is a lot more swing than you want to believe and you have to trust the firm 1/2 wedge is needed to hit it back there.  lob wedge challenged players often hit this one 25 feet instead of yards.

All this is about stock wedge shots, not low spinners or flop shots which use different methods to hit.

The things people have already mentioned about wedge grinds and bounce amounts make a big difference and those are for fitters to  help you determine.  The differences of grasses matters too.  some fuzzy Bermuda into the grain is game changing, you better accelerate if you want to get through it. 

There is NO SUBSTITUTE FOR PRACTICING SHORT GAME!

 

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Driver: Callaway Epic Flash 10.5 * Accra Tour Z TZ6 55 M3 pure 

Fairways: Callaway Maverick 15*  Accra FX 2.0-100F M3 pure  

Hybrid: Callaway Maverick 4&5 Hybrids Accra FX 2.0-100H60 M3 pure  

Irons:  PXG Gen 3 0311 P 6-P  Fujikura Pro 75 pure

Wedges: Renegar RxF  50*,54* & 58*

Chipper: Cleveland Smart Sole C 46*  Great for just off the greens in the rough 

Putter: Positive Putter's custom P2 (think Edel putter meets Heavy Putter)

Ball: Pro V1, Left Dot if I can get them

All clubs have Winn Dri-Tac Wraps oversized

 

 

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My 60 degree normally sees a lot of play time on my course. In general we have smaller greens. Eight of the greens are elevated to the extent that you need a high soft landing shot onto the green. All three par fives are that way. The rest are par 4's. If you happen to come up short into a sand trap on a few of them you are in such a deep trap you can't see over the top to see the green or the flag. You got to get out high and soft. This course is at the base of the mountains and has dramatic elevation changes. Not one flat hole. Four of the par 4's are #1, 2, 3, & 4 handicap holes. 

As an example hole #2 is the # 2 handicap hole at 344 yards. You need to hit 200 yards to the left side of the fairway to be centered in the fairway to the almost 90 degree dog leg left. You are now left with 144 yards. No big deal right? Wrong, you need to hit a pured high 7 wood and play it as 185 to 190 yards. That's how far uphill it is. If you don't  execute perfectly, it's lob wedge time. You have to hit it to the right spot on the green as well and hope for a one putt. The green has many breaks and slopes from back to front. Also has two deep bunkers guarding the front with a 1 yard wide strip of grass between the two bunkers.

Needless to say I get a lot of practice with the 60 degree based on my course's design. 

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:titleist-small: Driver, TSi1 10* Stiff Flex

:taylormade-small: 3 Wood, SLDR  HL 17*  R Flex

:taylormade-small: 5 Wood, SLDR 19* R Flex

:cobra-small: 7 Wood, F6 22.5* R Flex

:Sub70: 939x 5 hybrid

:Sub70: Irons, 699 Pro's S Flex (6 - AW)

:Sub70:  JB Wedge 56*

:cleveland-small: Wedge, CBX 60*

:odyssey-small: Putter, Marksman Fang 35"

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I always carry at least one high lofted wedge, currently two - a 64* and a 58*, which I turn to fairly often during a round when that shot & club make sense. The 58* is good for full shots from 80yds, the 64* from 65yds. With greenside shots, I always try the most straightforward option. So I'll putt or play a 7-iron runner from the fringe, but when you're down a steep bank or in a deep pot, that 64* can work minor miracles!

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The 64 degree was very useful for me at a hilly course with lots of elevation greens.  Also I like using 64 by closing the face on steep downhills   For flatter course I’m usually using a SW/GW loft  around the greens 

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I use the 60° out of bunkers especially when short sided.  Best club for that shot.  If the length is a little more I go to the 56°.  On full swing non-bunker shots with either, I have found that placing the ball one ball back of the center of my stance with the sternum over the ball produces the most crisp shots.

My miss is to blade it and believe me it's from lingering on my right side instead of turning on the downswing and "covering" the ball. 

Edited by 6 Million Dollar Man
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PXG GEN 4 Driver 0811 X

:cobra-small:  Cobra F8 Fairway Woods, 3/4, 5/6, 7/8

:mizuno-small:  Mizuno Hot Metal JPC 921 Irons

:1332069271_TommyArmour: #2 Wide Body Putter

Maxfli Tour X Golf Ball

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On 2/14/2022 at 2:15 PM, chisag said:

... Many with todays equipment that wants to go hit and straight never think of "unusual" shots. I like to play rounds every now and then using one club only. My favorites are using only a 5 iron or a 5 wood. Everything means chipping and putting too. Teaches you so much from course management to using your imagination, which is in short supply on the golf course today. 

Before I was hurt I used to play quite a bit walking with like 5 vintage clubs. Yep it leads to invention and imagination, Used to play when I was gambling a lot of one club matches my choice a 5 iron. Also on the old Par 3 course played a lot of one club matches using a 56* wedge. Learned early on how to putt with a 56* and hit the belly wedge with one. In fact in my short game practice today I was belly wedging it with my old 588 56*. Could not do it as well with the newer Cally PM. Decided then and there to put my trusty 588s back in the bag not that I do not love the PM but I am much more versatile with the old 588s. And besides I was practicing with an old bud who is a good player and old school like me. He asked me point blank when I was going to quit screwing around with the new stuff and go back to hitting what I always have ? He was right I am more versatile with the old 588s. Man we had fun another guy he knows and introduced me to today got a putt off going. No money involved just fun. Him with a newer milled 8802 the other guy with an ancient Anser and me of course with the Rusty Scotty. We had the prim and proper tourists looking. Man that was fun I think we all tied. But yeah I have went back to my basics equipment wise with the stuff I know

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Driver ---- Honma G1_X Stock tuned Honma R shaft---- 3 wood TM V-Steel Aldila 65G R Flex 15*--- 7 Wood TM V-Steel UST Pro Force 65 R flex 21*---- 9 wood TM V-Steel stock MAS Stiff shaft 24*---  Irons 4 thru 9 Mac Muirfield TT black label --- PW  Vokey SM-4 51* stock shaft--- SW Vokey SM 5 L grind 58* stock shaft--- Putter -- Rusty Scotty Santa Fe fluted Bulls Eye shaft---. Bag Old School Jones Original non stand

 

 

 

 

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23 hours ago, wes91 said:

I tried a 60 with varying degrees of bounce.  Hit it thin or fat.  I grew up with a 56, learned how to be creative, open or close the face, ball positions depending on the shot.   I’ll stick with the Vokey 56

Oh yes I am the same way-- The reason for me to start carrying the 60 again especially the 588s is because I have different sole grinds on them. My 60 I have a more flatter sharp leading edge grind. I did the grind myself copied the Scratch JLM/EGG grind. But basically I do not expect anyone to understand the method to my madness.

Driver ---- Honma G1_X Stock tuned Honma R shaft---- 3 wood TM V-Steel Aldila 65G R Flex 15*--- 7 Wood TM V-Steel UST Pro Force 65 R flex 21*---- 9 wood TM V-Steel stock MAS Stiff shaft 24*---  Irons 4 thru 9 Mac Muirfield TT black label --- PW  Vokey SM-4 51* stock shaft--- SW Vokey SM 5 L grind 58* stock shaft--- Putter -- Rusty Scotty Santa Fe fluted Bulls Eye shaft---. Bag Old School Jones Original non stand

 

 

 

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

Been using the PW around the greens more often  The Lw or sW has useful for the high stopping lob type shots   But feeling I don’t need to do that all the time 

With PW it’s more versatile can open or close the blade with roll out I think there a better chance to hole with PW.  If I have at least 8-12 feet of flat green to roll out the cup, will consider this option.  

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On 10/18/2021 at 8:50 PM, Isthisyourhomeworklarry said:
On 10/17/2021 at 8:48 PM, chisag said:

Great insight! And I play Chicago 80% of the year. I have gotten confident enough on the range to hit my wedges in buckets…. But throw a drought and lie into the equation and your +3-4 pretty quick! Playing drought Chicago, Variation of Midwest parkland/links and AZ. I think I may go 54&58 to manage the variation. 🙂

... When I first started playing I hit waaaaaaay too many bad shots with my 60* so I was deterred to make it my go to club around the green and used it for every shot. I figured once I became proficient using it, I would develop other shots like 8i bump and runs. After 2 years of constant use and even more practice I became very efficient using only my LW and never did go to other shots. Served me well for 35 years in the soft midwest conditions but moving to the hard fast desert courses in Phoenix with Bermuda grass, that philosophy came back to haunt me. Sticky Bermuda grain has grabbed the leading edge when hitting a millimeter behind the ball, which would be fine back in Chicago but actually stops the clubbed like ABS brakes. Grain also makes high lofted pitches either release down grain or grab into the grain, something a low running chip does not have to deal with. It has taken me a year but I am getting much better at a variety of shots around the green. So where you play can have as much effect as how you play when using a LW.

... My experience teaching and playing with higher index golfers is they don't have the trust or feel required to use a LW. Taking a longer swing and blading a LW over the green leaves scar tissue and the LW almost demands longer swings than most Am's are comfortable making. Obviously having the right bounce for the conditions you play or the shots you like to hit is very important, but the margin for error is so great for high and some mid index players and if they don't practice like they are on tour, a LW is probably best left out of the bag. And while taking longer swings with short shots, full shots are almost always better with 1/2 or 3/4 swings. I can hit the ball farther with a 3/4 swing than I can taking a LW to parallel. It is a unique club in that those using it well don't see any problem with a LW and those using it poorly curse it's very existence. 

... I played with a low index senior golfer a few weeks ago that surprised me by using a "chipper" around the green. He was very good with it and again showed me why they make so many different clubs that can all do the same thing. 

Expand  

Hey you may want to try the Renegar wedges for the nasty Bermuda.  They have a great leading edge and the bounce is good too.  Back in the old days MGS did an article on them and they are my go to Bermuda weapons.  

Driver: Callaway Epic Flash 10.5 * Accra Tour Z TZ6 55 M3 pure 

Fairways: Callaway Maverick 15*  Accra FX 2.0-100F M3 pure  

Hybrid: Callaway Maverick 4&5 Hybrids Accra FX 2.0-100H60 M3 pure  

Irons:  PXG Gen 3 0311 P 6-P  Fujikura Pro 75 pure

Wedges: Renegar RxF  50*,54* & 58*

Chipper: Cleveland Smart Sole C 46*  Great for just off the greens in the rough 

Putter: Positive Putter's custom P2 (think Edel putter meets Heavy Putter)

Ball: Pro V1, Left Dot if I can get them

All clubs have Winn Dri-Tac Wraps oversized

 

 

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