My try at duplicating the Ben Hogan Swing

[Manavs]

More proof positive that one can play golf with muscles. also your one of the few that gets the angle of the back arm on that twisting rear double shot 0:47 correct. well done.

 

back to your swing, you may be limited by not wanting to hit your low ceiling. as your clubs "exit wound" through your body in the follow through DTL view is exiting between your hip and shoulder instead of shoulder and neck. the drills i mentioned will get you there faster than beating your head against the wall and having your wife continue to laugh at you well at least for this hehe you mustve been a treat on a contest diet

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

I second what Matt said. This is an absolutely fascinating project. Best of luck with it.

 

Lol!!! I am laughing hard at your comment becuase my wife see's nothing fascinating about Hogans swing, and she could care less about golf. Be careful.....she may put you in the same "insane" category that she's put me in already lol. She still asks "are you done with this golf waste-of-time yet?" But good thing is that she doesn't ask as much. Maybe she's getting used to it! Yeeeeeeehawwwwwwwwww!

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

I don't know much about Moe Norman, but the guy here looks close.

 

I can just hear a doubter saying "Moe Norman was the best ball striker EVER. Nobody can or will ever get close to swinging like him."

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8oIX8v8H8o

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUy0nwnndd0&feature=related

 

 

 

Why not the same for the Hogan swing?? Now where the heck is Hogan's best pupil hiding??

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

Is this really Hogan swinging here??

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOSfSY07qRo&feature=player_embedded

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

I get the same questions all the time regarding "why" I'm doing this. Here's my reply from another forum:

 

Is your primary goal to have a swing that visually replicates Hogan's as closely as possible or to improve your game ? Yes, visual replication is the goal, and if I am able to get the visual down, then that has to, in some way, give an indirect ballstriking result. And by visually, I mean putting my swing vs Hogans, side-by-side on a screen, and step through it frame-by-frame. If the positions are close, then I am making progress. I think game improvement will be an indirect, but automatic occurance.

 

How long have you been playing golf ? Picked up my first club in 2007 at a company outing. I was a competetive softball player back then. One of my coworkers bet me that I couldn't hit the ball 100yds into the fairway. Said I could use any club I wanted to. I picked the driver cause it was the biggest lol. Had no idea about loft and side spin and grooves. Gave me 10 chances at it. 1st ball went about 200yds but had a small steering wheel attached to it; turned hard right. Ball #10 sliced two fairways over; after that day, I was hooked!

 

How often do you play ? March thru October, about once per week. One thing I puposefully do on the course that probably seems strange: I take no practice swings.....ever. Not even when putting. I have a reason for this.

 

What do you usually shoot ? All-time low this year is a 92. Avg score the past few years has been 101-108. Putting avg is approx 1.7.

 

How will you measure the success of your experiment ? For this phase of the project, Visually. For future projects, Better scores and Better ball striking.

 

Do you find your experiment more satisfying than playing a round of golf ? Sorry, don't know yet. havent finished the expriment yet. But, I can say, that there is not much satisfaction hitting balls 13yds in my basement swing lab lol!

 

Other thoughts.....why did I chose to use Hogan as my example? Because I like the way the swing looks, and I've never seen any other ordinary person have a swing that looked aesthetically as his. It's the most eye-appealing to me. If I had to pick a player of today, it would be Rory McIlroy, but again, this is not based on wins or performance or driving distance or any of that kind of stuff.....only the aesthetics.

 

Another question I get a lot.....why don't you just put all the effort into the "swing you were born with," rather than focus on trying to change your "natural swing" into someone elses? I am confused as to how people come up with the definition of "natrual swing." To me, there is no natural swing that you are born with. Just as there is no speaking accent that you are born with. If a Korean child, born to Korean parents, in Korea, is put on a plane, and flown to a farm in South Georgia, and is raised from age 0 to 15 by a surrounding of people that speak with a southern accent, this Korean child will have a southern accent. Just because they are born to Korean-speaking, Korean-looking parents, does not mean that they will "naturally" speak the same as them.

 

Same for the golf swing......you weren't born with any type of predisposed "golf swing" built into your DNA. You learned it. If you grew up never ever seeing anyone speaking of, or playing golf, and someone handed you a club, you would just stare at it, and have no idea what it is for. You would either have to have someone tell you how to use it, or observe it being used. If they told you that you swing the club by squatting your butt all the way to the ground, then jump up and spin around in two circles, this would be your "natural" swing. And if you practiced the heck out of it, and burned it into muscle-memory, you could play golf with it.

 

There are natural ROM's for each of us, but not a specific golf swing.

 

Regarding the "effort" queston, I do think I could tweek the "natural" swing I have developed over the past 4 years into scratch. But, I have decided that I don't like the swing "accent", and now want to change it. Naaaah, let me reword that.....I don't see anything wrong with my original swing accent, but now I want to see if it is at all possible to learn a new one.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

Still experimenting with lots of things. Haven't put together a solid training plan yet. Won't do that till I can get a basic understanding of a few more things. Only felt like doing some 3/4 swings today. My lower back has been giving me a tough time for the past few days; probably from me doing sort of a backwards lean as I swing through. Kim says I should give it up cause I'm tearing my body down. I say "no way....I'm in too deep and have learned too much." If it gets torn down to the point of needing a back transplant, I'll just work towards the Hogan in the Mr. Rogers yellow sweater. Until then........ONWARD MEN....ummmmm and women........C H A R G E !!!!

 

I am getting soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo stinkin tired of this basement. My daughter, the family artist, offered to paint a golf course mural on the white sheet I'm hitting into.

 

If the weather is good this weekend, I'm gonna get out in the front yard yard and hit some of those birdieballs onto the neighbors roof. Just hope I don't get that urge to tee up a ProV1 to see if I can fade it around the two houses at the cul de sac.

 

0:48 5-metal

2:57 Sam Snead 1-wood

3:46 Taylormade Driver 450cc (ball on mat no tee)

4:21 McGregor 5-wood (grip is hard as a rock and feels like plastic. Ball ricocheted up into the girders. Probably hit top of club cause it rotates in my palm from lack of tacky grip.)

5:01 3-metal

5:33 5-metal

6:65 Sam Snead 1-wood slo mo

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JL2nKT380ww

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

Made it to the course on Friday afternoon, but not to play. I watched Bruce and my Dad battle each other for December bragging rights. Too perfect a day for them to pass it up. 69-70 degrees with very little wind. They were a little baffled by my choice not to play. They know about my swing reconstruction goal and only tried to talk me into it about 100 times. But luckily, I didn't even bring my clubs, cause I'm not ready to focus on ball flight/course management yet. But I did need to get out of the solitary basement atmosphere to smell the green grass and listen to some fiendly trash talking.

 

They only played the front nine. After 8 holes, they were tied. My Dad won on the 9th hole by 1 stroke, after Bruce's 2nd shot pin-balled off a pine tree. Didn't bother me not playing cause I got to do lots of caddying and swing analysis. I've put so much time into looking at swing video the past few months that I'm starting to get an understand of what I am looking at, and how to pick out the things that are fundamentally good and bad. I'm definitely not a swing instructor, but one of my main goals, besides the Hogan duplication attempt, is to help my Dad with his golf game. He is 67 years old, freshly retired, and shoots in the 95-101 range. He has fun playing the game, but what I see now in his swing is absolutely no weight shift. He swings off his back foot, which makes him very armsy. He is working is butt off swinging with all upper body. I don't know how he makes it through 18 holes without being tired and drained.

 

He said he saw my Take 14 video and that my swing looks different, but that I will probably not be able to transition it from the basement to the course. Says he's working on his game too, and that he will be giving us extra strokes to keep things competitive. We'll see.......

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

I reluctantly hung out with Kim on Saturday; I don't mind spending quality time with her, but I do mind SHOPPING NONSTOP FOR 8 STINKIN HOURS!

 

I swallowed the above rant because when she stopped by a goodwill/thrift store, I got a chance to browse the "thrifty" golf area. There were a few used, off-brand clubs and bags that had been abandonded by their owners.

 

I stumbled across the following:

 

a Ben Hogan AMF 1-wood (cracked hozel area),

a Ben Hogan AMF 1-wood, (good)

a Ben Hogan AMF 3-wood, (good)

a Ben Hogan AMF 4-wood (missing screw in sole)

 

All appear to have the original AMF grip, based on the "exclusive Hogan AMF design" stamped on the end of the grip. I'm not sure if these are men's or women's clubs.

 

The 4-wood feels just like my TaylorMade 5-metal.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id8_kwyZdkU&feature=youtu.be

[jerryfoley1]

I reluctantly hung out with Kim on Saturday; I don't mind spending quality time with her, but I do mind SHOPPING NONSTOP FOR 8 STINKIN HOURS!

 

I swallowed the above rant because when she stopped by a goodwill/thrift store, I got a chance to browse the "thrifty" golf area. There were a few used, off-brand clubs and bags that had been abandonded by their owners.

 

I stumbled across the following:

 

a Ben Hogan AMF 1-wood (cracked hozel area),

a Ben Hogan AMF 1-wood, (good)

a Ben Hogan AMF 3-wood, (good)

a Ben Hogan AMF 4-wood (missing screw in sole)

 

All appear to have the original AMF grip, based on the "exclusive Hogan AMF design" stamped on the end of the grip. I'm not sure if these are men's or women's clubs.

 

The 4-wood feels just like my TaylorMade 5-metal.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id8_kwyZdkU&feature=youtu.be

[jerryfoley1]

I am simply fascinated by this post! I started a golf company a few years go to develop a golf swing device that could be programmed to assist a golfer to swing better. Along my journey I came across many stumbling obstacles but have gained much appreciation for how difficult the golf is to understand. Reading this post about copying Hogan's is truly an interesting read.

 

In the 6 years I have studied golf swings with our company research it has become obvious that there is no "one" swing that should be copied. Instead we discovered that every individual will develop his own custom swing that fits his body and to a lesser extent, their mind. How can I say these things? Because we have studied golf swings from most of the well known PGA Pro's and have reached some undeniable conclusions. Every golf swing does the same thing within the impact zone. That is, the club travels parallel to the target line with a square clubface. The only exceptions are intentional as the golfer plays a fade/draw/etc. And interestly most all swings look identical when you concentrate only on the swingpaths and clubface orientation. The exceptions are the unorthodox swings of Furyk/Garcia/and some others. But even they get back "on-plane" during the downswing. Why? Because they "have to". If they didn't the ball would go every which way.

 

The point then is why copy "any" great swing if in fact they are all alike? Well, you could do a lot of good picking a great swing to copy but don't do it for the reason you may think. Hogan and Arnie and Jack swung the way they did because their individual swings allowed them to be repeated and with enough velocity to propel the ball the distances they needed. If this were not true why don't Ben's and Jack's and Arnie's swings all look alike? But if you put those three on a "Bluescreen" and only showed their club being swung you would see some very common things. They all swung around their spines with almost perfect arcs or orbits and the clubfaces orient almost exactly. Their swinplanes vary because Hogan was very small and thus his swingplane was "flat". Jack swung fairly upright and Arnie was somewhere in between. But their swingpaths were consistent.

 

Touring pros today are models of consistent swingpaths. And they do it at 120MPH! Am's are lucky to hit 100MPH and because they have excess body motion in their attempt to gain power their swingpaths are wildly inconsistent. Again the point is consistency. So the "chicken or egg" conundrum continues with Hogan. Was his swing great because of how he controlled all his body placements and parts (as you are attempting to do) or did his body parts just fall into place naturally because he maintained a perfect swingpath? That is what my company is researching. We have our opinions and hope to forward our technology soon to prove it.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

Well, you could do a lot of good picking a great swing to copy but don't do it for the reason you may think.

 

The reason I may think is: to see if I can do it.

 

If I succeed, I will say, "Yeeeeeeeeehawwwww!," then play a round of golf from the white tees.

 

If I fail, I will say, "Ok, well now I know," then play a round of golf from the white tees.

 

Either way, I will say "I tried," then play another round of golf from the white tees.

 

 

And........ummmmmmmmm........doesn't matter much to me, but most of the guys and gals here don't take well to "sales" based posts. Best of luck with your company.

[apprenti23]

I think this is pretty incredible. The fact that you haven't quit or given up says a lot about your character. I apologize for not reading the entirety of your posts, read the entire first couple then just skimmed- too long. It's pretty awesome how close you are getting. I do have a few questions though: Are you the same body type, build, size as Hogan was? Had you played golf before you had this crush on BH? I mainly wonder that because I think it would be much more difficult and frustrating to change a golf swing that has been engrained for years than it would being a newbie. Once again, thank you for sharing your journey with us, and congratulations on being so close to your goal.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

I think this is pretty incredible. The fact that you haven't quit or given up says a lot about your character. I apologize for not reading the entirety of your posts, read the entire first couple then just skimmed- too long. It's pretty awesome how close you are getting. I do have a few questions though: Are you the same body type, build, size as Hogan was? Had you played golf before you had this crush on BH? I mainly wonder that because I think it would be much more difficult and frustrating to change a golf swing that has been engrained for years than it would being a newbie. Once again, thank you for sharing your journey with us, and congratulations on being so close to your goal.

 

Thanks apprenti.

 

I'm 5' 7-1/2" (I always just say 5'8"), 175lbs, Muscular build. The muscular part is a problem. My chest and biceps are getting in the way when I get to the top of the swing.

 

Lol!! Crush on Hogan...lolol. I don't think so, but my wife would probably agree with you. You should have seen the look on her face when I first got into this; I told her I needed some khaki pants, and to make sure they were 1 size too big, so I could pull them up over my navel lol. On a serious note, wearing the same type clothing makes it easier for me to see things when I analyze/compare video.

 

I got into the game in 2007, and only followed Tiger when he played on Sunday's. I learned of Hogan in July of this year. I had no idea he was such a dominant player. As I learned about him, he kind of sounded like the Tiger of his era.

 

I have about 4 years of an engrained swing. I do think it is more difficult to change a movement that you've practiced for so long, but not impossible. It would definitly be easier to train a newbie rather than a veteran that already has a built swing.

 

Thanks for the positive thoughts, but I am nowhere near my goal. One of my friends came over the house and said "Alright, I've seen you on youtube, but I wanna see the swing in person. MAN!!!! That's it! That's the swing! You've got it. Wow. So, now that you've gotten it figured out, what's Hogan's secret???"

 

Why did my friend think that? Cause he doesn't have a complete understanding of the Hogan swing dynamic. He just sees the address, the swing, then the similar finish. He doesn't see the stalled pivot, the right elbow straightening too early, the over-the-top, the club getting waaaaay off-plane, the left leg not doing what I want it to at impact, my head and upper body moving all over the place, my right knee not maintaining its kickstand, and another 15 things lol. This reminds me of when I was working on the drill you see in my Take7 vid. Back in September, I went to the course and got the same kind of reaction from the guys waiting at the teebox, but I think it was only cause I had on a Hogan-style hat, and had a similar finish. I'll find the journal entry and post it.

 

And my response to my friends question about Hogan's secret........there is no secret. No magic wand, no top hat, no cape. Everything he's doing is right there in his videos for everyone to see. Lol, only problem is that it's stinkin hard to see cause the resolution is so bad.

 

I think I'll be close to my goal in 5-10 years.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

@apprenti23.

 

Here's the journal entry from September I was talking about.....

 

Well, I finally got to the course on this past Saturday morning and it was outstanding! However it didn't start out that way. I left home an hour early to get plenty of time on the driving range and chipping green. As I drove up, there was the usual Saturday morning line at the 1st tee. I parked, and then walked to the pro shop to pay for 9 holes and a large bucket. I propped my bag against a wall outside the pro shop door, and walked inside to another long line of Nike and Taylor Made capped Men ready to whap at a few balls. As I walked in, there was a grey-haired elderly man sitting at one of the tables. You know, whenever I play at a municipal course, there's ALWAYS one of these dudes somewhere around the place lol!! I stood in the line for about 10 minutes; the elderly dude walked out and stood outside smoking a cigarette. He came back in….and that's where it all started…He said "Hey young buck, that your bag out there?" I said "YES SIR!!"with a LOT of enthusiasm, cause I was excited about getting out of the basement to the outdoors. He responded with "what chu know bout persimmon woods? You don't know nuthin bout that old school stuff." I laughed it off and said "they're just clubs…nothin special………..I'm tryin to learn a little something with them." He chuckled back and said "yeah, don't nobody round here know nuthin bout real wood clubs." That comment got the middle-aged guy behind the counter started. "He he he he…….yep, if you got persimmon in your bag, that means you know something bout the game." These types of comments are what I don't like to hear; people labeling me as some type of "good" player just because I have some wooden clubs in my bag. I paid for my 9 holes and large bucket, and quickly laughed myself right out of there; too much pressure lol. I need to get a special shirt made that I wear to the course that says "I am not a good golfer. I am working towards the swing mechanics of Ben Hogan. I wear these Khaki pants, white shirt, and Hogan hat to help make it easier to analyze and compare my swing to his. I swing with wooden clubs to keep a certain swing feeling, and cause I like how they look. I really have no idea what I am doing. Please do not watch me right now because you will be very disappointed. But you should see me in about a year……..I may surprise you!"

 

I immediately went to the range and started with my impact-elbow-hip drill. I'm still trying to get Kim to come up with a snazzy name for it; my hope is that it will allow her to become a part of the project. There was one guy on the range with blue shorts and a white shirt. As I walked towards the hitting area, I saw him swatting at balls. From a far-away distance, looked like he was only moving his arms and shoulders, but the ball was flying off the ground like bullets! As I got closer, I noticed all the intricacies of his swing compared to what I am trying to accomplish. Veeeeeeery different; his hips didn't move at all, but he had a consistent strike and the ball was going long……much longer than me. I dropped my bag on the ground and………it started again. He asked how I was doing, then said "whoa, you got real wood clubs lol??" I said, "Yep, just tryin something different today." I always use these clubs, but this is my common response so nobody is waiting to see anything spectacular from me. I worked on the impact-elbow-hip drill for about 15 minutes without a ball, then eased a few balls into the mix. Took some 60% effort swings; the first few went straight, but right, because I forgot to supinate the left wrist and pull the left shoulder back. When I did remember the left wrist/shoulder, flight was in the middle and acceptable.

 

I then went to the chipping area to do what I enjoy the most: to see how many I can chip in. Today it was 2 out of 20 minutes worth. I made it a point to over-exaggerate the impact-elbow-hip drill while chipping each ball. Looked just like what I am doing in the 'Take 7' video, except it's a small chipping movement, but same head down/hip thrust/left foot stomp/left knee snap/left shoulder roll-around. I probably looked ridiculous out there lol. My right side began to pain a little, because I am getting so crunched, and because it is a movement I have never done before a couple of days ago. As a bead of sweat began to drop from my nose, I wiped it on my sleeve and looked up towards the clubhouse back door. There was the old guy still puffing on the cigarette with one hand in his pocket staring at me. He yelled out "yah, I see ya down there…….you know what you're doin young buck lol……. I yelled back "nah, not really……I'm still tryin to figure it out!" That's when I picked up all the range balls and headed over to the upper putting green to check the green speed, but mainly to get out of his view lol.

 

Greens were medium speed. I waited for Bruce and Larry to arrive. While I waited, I sat at a bench on a hill above/behind the 1st tee box and watched the crowd of 5 carts and lots of walkers. I took note of everyone's practice swing and real swing, pointing out what they are doing that is in line with my goal. I noticed the younger guys (18-30ish) seemed to swing as hard as they could, and most of their balls curved right. Most of the older veterans (50-60ish) swung smooth and easy; most balls went down the middle or drew left. Note to self: get the mindset of an old veteran!

 

Bruce and Larry finally arrived and we met at the first tee. The crowd that was initially there had teed off and were well into the 2nd hole. It was surprising that it was not busy at 10:22am on a Saturday morn. First thing Larry says when he walks up is "MAN! You got real wood clubs. LOLOLOL! I gotta see this! You might make me get mine out of the closet!" Bruce says, "uhhhh, it will surprise you….I wish he would get rid of 'em….he's taken my money for the past month lol!" Bruce was right, but my improvement had nothing to do with the club, just the mechanics I am working on. We toss up a tee to select hitting order; it's Bruce, Larry, then me. Bruce hits a driver that pushes right, but is in-bounds. As we laugh aloud and comment on how lucky he is to be in bounds, 4 carts pull up and 3 more walkers with push carts. A minute ago, there was no one around, now the whole world. But I didn't mind because I had been on the range practicing my drill, and on the chipping area doing the same, so I had an idea of what the new swing feeling was. Almost my turn up at the plate! Larry is doing a bunch of practice swings and getting ready to hit his driver; his ball went towards where Bruce's was. Then it started again. One of the older lookin dudes standing behind his push cart said "you swingin real woods my man?"

 

I said "yah, just figured I would try somethin different today." He asked what it was and if he could see it. I handed him the 3wood and he swung it a few times. His buddy laughed and said "you can barely swing that $300 nike in ya bag. What you gonna do wit real wood!?" Then of course he told his friend, who started commenting about the clubs, then the guy next to him, then a wildfire lol. Everybody was talking about wooden clubs and how the game has changed. Then the worst part: the dude in the hawaiian looking shirt said "come on, give my man his club and let him do his thing. He didn't bring real wood out here for nuthin. Trust me, I saw him on the chipping green swingin it just like Ben Hogan. I ain't lying….."

 

I tried to offset the comment by saying "lol nooooooo, it's just the hat. My swing is nowhere near Hogan lol." This is when I wanted to be at home in the basement with just me and the crickets and spiders. If you've seen my post about the Taylor Made Tour bag, you will know what I am talking about. I seem to have issues with people expecting me to do a certain thing or perform a certain way based on the type of equipment or clothing I have on. When I finish the Hogan swing project, I'm gonna start a Ben Hogan Golf Mindset Project lol…..how to cancel out the gallery on the first tee box! I walked up to the white blocks and tried my best to stay focused on the elbow/hip/impact drill. Dropped a ball on the ground and did a few practice drills. I didn't swing all the way around my body; just enough to keep the elbow/hip/thrust feeling. I don't tee balls up if I'm swinging 3wood or smaller, cause when I'm on the fairway, no tees are allowed. I treat the tee box as just another fairway; gives me more fairway practice that way. I walked into the ball just as I've practiced the past few weeks. I did the waggle a few times, then set my left foot forward of my right about 1" closer to the target line, then right foot perpendicular to target line. The right knee was bent in a little, just as I had practiced. With my head down, I took the club back, and loaded my right side, and swung through with the elbow/hip thrust feeling I had practiced on the chipping green. I don't remember seeing the club make contact with the ball/ground (I gotta look into this…….as I think about it, I don't think I have ever seen the club make contact with the ball….what the heck am I looking at when I swing???? Maybe my eyes just roll around in my head or something lol!!!! Gonna get one of those high speed cameras and put it on my eyes !). Well, surprisingly, the ball went straight right with a nice high trajectory and landed just a little farther than Bruce and Larry. It was on a side-hill about 10 yards from OOB. I think it went right because I forgot to supinate during the downswing / impact area. One thing I do distinctly remember is the feeling of the drill movement during the swing, and that as I saw the ball heading on an ok path, I did the Hogan finish, where he falls back on the right heel, then steps forward on the left foot towards the target; kind of an out of balance adjustment he makes.

 

The Hawaiian shirt guy then says "I TOLD YA! My man can swing that wood!" That's about all I did was swing it. Really all I did was get lucky under pressure lol. Wish I had that on camera to analyze. Want to know what my left wrist/hand was doing at impact, as well as the overall areas I have been working on night and day.

 

I got better with the supination as we played along. A quick note on this supination attempt; I'm not sure if I should be trying to do this or if I should be doing something else to make it happen on its own. I'll know when I officially get to that part of the project. After a while, the swing started to feel "natural". Now it definitely wasn't perfect. I had my fair share of mis-hits and flubs, but overall, it was gooooooood because based on "feeling", I was doing what I had been drilling all week. My 9-hole score of 44 was nothing to be writing home about, but I did beat Bruce by 13 strokes…..again lol.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

I've been reviewing my share of Hogan videos and have yet to see a full swing of him with his left heel planted.

 

Has anyone seen any full-swing vid of Hogan where his left heel DOESN'T raise as he gets to the top?

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

Even in his 3/4 swings, left heel is coming up, then slamming back down like he's stomping a bug. Veeeeeewy intwesting. Then next question is, why don't today's players stomp the bug?

[RookieBlue7]

I've read this whole post and watched the videos, and I applaud your determination. I tried something similar to this one time, trying to duplicate another great's swing, and I ended up causing myself more problems than doing good. Of course I've been playing the game a lot longer, and had my own swing that I've developed over the years, and trying to completely change lots of aspects really hurt me. With you being relatively new to the game, this appears to be an easier undertaking for you than someone that's been playing 15-50 years. So again, I applaud your effort, determination and dedication and wish you success in both visually duplicating the swing and shooting better scores.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

I've read this whole post and watched the videos, and I applaud your determination. I tried something similar to this one time, trying to duplicate another great's swing, and I ended up causing myself more problems than doing good. Of course I've been playing the game a lot longer, and had my own swing that I've developed over the years, and trying to completely change lots of aspects really hurt me. With you being relatively new to the game, this appears to be an easier undertaking for you than someone that's been playing 15-50 years. So again, I applaud your effort, determination and dedication and wish you success in both visually duplicating the swing and shooting better scores.

 

Thanks Rookie. What swing did you try? And what were the roadblocks for you?

[RookieBlue7]

I tried emulating a few positions Tiger was getting in, having an athletic build at the time and being close to the same height. I also tried getting into a few positions Jack got to as well. I have taken a few things from them, modifying a few things to work for me. It did help but I couldn't get to the exact positions they were getting into and it feel right. In a feel player and always have been. Like you, I don't use a teacher and never have. I have had a friend that's a head pro look at my swing to spot flaws but she corrected nothing, just videoed it and told me what was causing my problem at the time. I fixed it on my own. I've always felt like I can do things for myself. My handicap has been close to scratch before when I had time to work on my swing all the time before being married and having children. Now, I do what I can when I can and play 3-4 times a month and still manage to break 80 nearly every time (of my rounds this year, 3 were above a 79).

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

I tried emulating a few positions Tiger was getting in, having an athletic build at the time and being close to the same height. I also tried getting into a few positions Jack got to as well. I have taken a few things from them, modifying a few things to work for me. It did help but I couldn't get to the exact positions they were getting into and it feel right. In a feel player and always have been. Like you, I don't use a teacher and never have. I have had a friend that's a head pro look at my swing to spot flaws but she corrected nothing, just videoed it and told me what was causing my problem at the time. I fixed it on my own. I've always felt like I can do things for myself. My handicap has been close to scratch before when I had time to work on my swing all the time before being married and having children. Now, I do what I can when I can and play 3-4 times a month and still manage to break 80 nearly every time (of my rounds this year, 3 were above a 79).

 

Yah, I was a big Tiger fan when I first got into the game. At that time, I wasn't into the duplication attempt mindset; never thought much about what was happening in his swing, but I did wear a red shirt on the course a few times lol.

 

Your scoring sounds good! I hope to be able to do the same someday. You got any videos of your swing?

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

I think I'm finished with all the general experimenting now. I have a basic idea of what is happening in the swing, and am ready to put together an actual training plan.

 

Based on my Take14 vid, I thought I was making pretty ok progress, but after re-analyzing Hogan's concentration drills, a lot more is starting to make sense. And when I say "make sense," I'm talking about how I translate what I see vs what I feel that I am doing physically.

 

I have had my biggest breakthru this week while analyzing the concentration drills from Coleman video, and Fr. Keller video. I've now made major changes in the setup of my feet, leg position, and weight distribution. From the address to the top, real vs concentration are veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery close in mechanical nature. This tells me I can now focus on concentration movements, because they closely match the real swing.

 

I did an analysis a few months ago of the Coleman DTL vid that shows the likeness.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSZo43FwmTk

 

Tonite, I have just finished putting together the same type of analysis of the Fr. Keller video; a comparison of real vs concentration. I tried putting audio on it. Still converting it and trying to load onto youtube.

 

I will also be doing the same 'real vs concentration' comparison of the Coleman FO view this weekend.

 

What do these vids tell me? That it should be absolutely no excuse for not mastering the takeaway/upswing/the top. (Boy, I hope I don't eat those words.)

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNlDRFvwxws

 

Based on this "real swing" vs Concentration Drill, there are many likenesses. The following appear to be veeeeeeery close:

Setup

Waggle

Forward Press

Takeaway

Upswing

At the top

 

I'll be intently focused on the concentration drill for the next few months.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

Ben Hogan Coleman Beach "Real Swing" vs "Concentration Drill" comparison FO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iWEtB-tbko

 

Based on this "real swing" vs Concentration Drill, there are many likenesses. The following appear to be veeeeeeery close:

 

Setup

Waggle

Forward Press

Takeaway

Upswing

At the top

 

What do these vids tell me? That it should be absolutely no excuse for not mastering these parts of the swing.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDZz6dJPX4A

 

I am putting together my training plan. The angle measurements listed here are nothing absolute or scientific. Just me having fun with a bunch of lines and numbers. I am comparing the real swing vs concentration, and noting the range.

 

Example: The angle of the outer right leg is ~77 degrees in real swing, and ~81 degrees in concentration. Range is 77-81 degrees.

 

This same type of data wil be gathered for DTL, R, LF, and all other views.

[Phana24JG]

The reason I may think is: to see if I can do it.

 

If I succeed, I will say, "Yeeeeeeeeehawwwww!," then play a round of golf from the white tees.

 

If I fail, I will say, "Ok, well now I know," then play a round of golf from the white tees.

 

Either way, I will say "I tried," then play another round of golf from the white tees.

 

 

And........ummmmmmmmm........doesn't matter much to me, but most of the guys and gals here don't take well to "sales" based posts. Best of luck with your company.

 

I salute you on your dedication, your originality, and the rather unigue algorithm you have devised to achieve your goal. While I happen to agree with the opinion that this is not the best way to improve your game, it is obvious to anyone who has followed this thread that "success" is not the point. You are having a hell of a lot of fun (along with frustration) pursuing your goal and that is paramount. Best of luck!!!!

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

I salute you on your dedication, your originality, and the rather unigue algorithm you have devised to achieve your goal. While I happen to agree with the opinion that this is not the best way to improve your game, it is obvious to anyone who has followed this thread that "success" is not the point. You are having a hell of a lot of fun (along with frustration) pursuing your goal and that is paramount. Best of luck!!!!

 

Thank you!

 

I'm having more fun than frustration (most times). The unique algorithm was done by my 8th grade daughter. Great practice for her geometry class.

 

And...errrrr....ummmmmmmm......."success" is defined by its owner. Success is definitely the point of my project.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

I got an interesting comment from someone. What they said is very true......."If you learn to make your [Hogan] backswing right with slow motion (according the camera) it can be something totally different with normal speed".

 

My main roadblock in the beginning was the difficulty involved in analyzing Hogan's real speed swing. I had always heard guys say "you need to focus on the concentration drill." Well, I didn't trust that he was doing anything close to the concentration that he's doing in the real speed swing. Probably because I've heard so many people say that Hogan had a secret, and he took it with him to the grave. So I deduced that if there was a big secret, then why would he show it all across the world at ProAms and clinics. I was caught up in the "secret" belief. I was becoming programmed by the thoughts/beliefs of the golfing community. And when top 100 teachers spoke of this same "secret" I figured it was the gospel.

 

Then, just for fun, I decided to put the slow-mo of the real swing, vs concentration, side-by-side; and compare dynamic movement as well as angular position. From the waggle to the top, I was shocked to see that they are just about the same movement, dynamic, position, etc. Nothing secret when I saw them side-by-side broken down. I am now transitioning from experimentation to major focus on the concentration drill.

 

I do agree that doing it in super-slow snail-paced fashion is much different than at rattlenake-strike pace.

I'll just start working at .0000000001 mph and ease it up throughout the years.

 

Current "concentration drill" focus will only be the waggle and setup. This could easily take a year, but who knows, I could get lucky and have a learning spike.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

I made a fun observation yesterday. While I was on my laptop looking at grainy Hogan footage, my daughters set up the Wii game. They put in "Just Dance." Kim (my wife) was on the sofa beside me folding clothes. I glanced up at the TV and noticed the CG person dancing. I then glanced at my 4th grade daughter and noticed she was doing something similar to the CG. Hmmmmmm! Then I began my questions...

 

Me: 4th grade daughter, what are you doing?

 

4th: I'm dancing!

 

Me: Wow..that's cool. You're dancing just like the person on the screen. Looks like fun. I wanna try it too.

 

4th: Daaaaaaaaaaad, you're too old!

 

Me: Nooooooooo, lol, not too old. Didn't you see me at the New Year's party bustin a groove?

 

4th: But this isn't the same. You can't just do what you want to do. You have to keep up with the person on the TV and move just like they do, or you lose points.

 

Me: Well, how did you learn to move just like they do?

 

4th: I just looked at it over [our neighbor's] house and started doing it.

 

Me: Soooooooo, you didn't take a class at school on it?

 

4th: LOLOL! Noooooooooooooooo.

 

Me: Ummmmmmm, you didn't read a book about it to learn how to do it?

 

4th: LOLOL! Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad! Noooooooooo. You're messing me up! I'm losing points now!

 

Kim: Ummmm, I see what you're doing.....can you just leave them alone and let them play their game??

 

4th: Mahhhhhhhhhm, He's trying to make me lose!

 

Me: Nooo, I'm not trying to make you lose. I just want to know who showed you how to do that, so I can get them to show me.

 

4th: (She hits pause now, and turns to me) I already told you, you just have to look at what the person is doing and do just like it. It's EASY!!!!!! (She restarts the game)

 

Me: Yep, it looks easy to me. Wow...look at that...you're doing your feet and arms just like they are. You're good at this. Sooo, how long have you been doing that song? Is it your first time doing that one?

 

4th: (She takes a deep breath and kinda slams her arms down to her side, then pauses the game again) NooooooooooOOO. (She turns to Kim) Mom...can you tell Dad to stop. He's making me lose.

 

Kim: (She stares at me, shaking her head, and mumbles under her breath) Ummph, ummph, ummph....will it ever end. (By this time, I'm trying to keep a straight face and not laugh, cause the 4th grader has no idea what I'm doing).

 

She finally finishes the game (and yep she lost), so I wait for her to play the same song a few times to get the score she is after. Then I ask her a few final questions.

 

Me: Well, looks like you've gotten that one figured out. You're getting better each time you play it.

 

4th: Yahh, it's one of my favorite songs!

 

Me: So, you never told me how long you had been playing that song.

 

4th: Me and [the neighbor] have been playing it since Christmas day.

 

Me: Well, why don't you stop playing that one, and pick a song you have never ever heard of before. See what your score is. You should be real good at it because you were really good with that favorite song you just did.

 

4th: Noooooooooooooooooooooooo, LOLOL, that doesn't make any sense. I won't have a good score cause I don't know what the moves are. I've never seen it.

 

Me: Oh, ok. So that means you will never know how to do that one then. Oh well. I thought you were good at this. (Then I get up and start walking away).

 

4th: (Now she's kinda huffing and puffing cause she can't understand how I don't get it.) Daaaaaaaaaad, I just have to play it for a while and I will be good at that one too!

 

Me: Ohhhh. Ok. I thought that 9 year olds couldn't learn stuff like that. I thought they had to be told how to do it by their teacher.

 

4th: Nope. I don't HAVE to have my teacher. I can learn anything I want to!

 

Me: (I raise both my arms like I've crossed the finish line at a marathon race and yell) YES!!!!!!

 

Kim: (Still shakin her head) Lol, you need help lol.

 

8th: (Then my 8th grade daughter who has been listening to the whole conversation jumps in) Dad, I know what you were doing, you weren't fooling me. You were trying to say that what 4th grade is doing is something like your Hogan Project. She was learning what she sees the people doing on the game.

 

Me: Lol, Ummmmmmmm, I have no idea what you are talking about. Now how would you come up with something like that lol. I was just watching you guys play the game.

 

8th grader says "yeah...right" and leaves. Now it's just me and Kim sitting there.

 

Me: I gotta put this on the forum!

 

Kim: Ummmm. make sure you don't say anything crazy about me cause I am not a part of your little Hogan stuff..... and don't use my name.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

Lol, I just realized that I am long-winded and type too much. Some of my posts are a whole stinkin page long!

 

I need to invest all this typing time into club moving time!!

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

I am commonly asked..."which Hogan are you looking at to copy? Before he found out the secret? After the secret, after the crash, after he stopped playing competitively?"

 

I'm analyzing and experimenting with all of them, but so far, based on my flexibility and muscular boob, I may be working towards these (I have no idea what year they are, and if they are pre or post secret):

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9g7CZGx5WI&feature=player_embedded

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtrOaujiy6s&feature=player_embedded

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFrycHnCvGI&feature=player_embedded

 

I don't think my swolen upper body will allow me to do this:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w92wg52nYxU&feature=player_embedded

 

Basically, I think I can physically get close to however he was swinging in his 40, 50, and 60 year-old range. But I'm using something from all the different eras to get an understanding.