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Ben Hogan Swing Project

My try at duplicating the Ben Hogan Swing

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sf5bRMk25k

 

In this video, I was just playing around with a few things that felt nothing like a golf swing. During my analysis, I ran the slow-mo a few times just to see how ridiculous the swing looked, and was shocked to see that I was SOMEHOW getting close to the angle-hinged position. I WISH I KNEW HOW I WAS GETTING THERE!!!!!!!! It would be so helpful if I could just type exactly what I am doing, but I have no idea right now.

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Alright guys......sorry for all the back-to-back posts, but thats my entire swing journal to date. Now you know what I've been up to since about July. I have an idea what is going on in the Hogan swing, but I haven't been able to train my body yet. Can't wait to get out of this basement and onto the course in March 2012!!

 

And yes, I know this is pretty insane and idiotic to try and copy a golf swing(my wife tells me daily lol). Is there anybody else using Hogan as a swing model?? Any luck with it?

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Just got through reading (most) of these posts and I have to commend you for the dedication! Best of luck as you continue with the project, I will be following closely.

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Just got through reading (most) of these posts and I have to commend you for the dedication! Best of luck as you continue with the project, I will be following closely.

 

I second what Matt said. This is an absolutely fascinating project. Best of luck with it.

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I second what Matt said. This is an absolutely fascinating project. Best of luck with it.

 

Thanks guys. But believe, me, I have heard more negative feedback than positive regarding what I am attempting. I've learned a lot so far, but I have a loooooong way to go.

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I'm also done reading now (you kept me busy the whole day at the office :lol:)

 

Not familiar with the Hogan swing, so can't say if it's good or bad.

However, the level of detail and dedications... really hats off to you!

 

Just a suggestion, you might want to update your project in a more regular interval. It's easier for us to follow step by step instead of chugging down 20 posts full of info at once.

 

Good job!

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I have gotten a lot of questions asking what my method is, and who my instructor is. Lol, there is no documented method, and the plain dude you see in my vids, better known as "me" is the instructor. Heck, I taught myself how to do the moonwalk, so why not a golf swing lol.

 

Here's my daily routine:

 

1. Set the computer up in DTL view.

2. Turn on the 100 degree spotlight that probably gives the neighbors the impression that I am lighting a nuclear reactor.

3. Press record on the computer.

4. Walk over and get into the address position. Hold it for a few seconds.

5. Go back to the computer. Stop recording. Draw a plane line from the hozel of the club, straight through my back.

6. Press record again.

7. Walk back over and get into address position, but this time, perform the full takeaway/upswing in concentration-drill tempo. Do this movement 5-6 times. Then do same movement in real body speed.

8. Go back to the computer. Stop recording. Run the video back of the concentration drill and watch as the club begins its climb.

9. Is club on the plane line? Yell "YES!!"

10. Is my right forearm in position? Yell "YES!!"

11. Is my right hand/wrist in position? Yell "YES!!"

12. Is my left shoulder nice and flat? Yell "YES!!"

13. Is my left shoulder still flat? Yell "YES!!"

14. When hands get to lower back, is club still on plane line? Yell "YES!!"

15. Is right leg starting to become a giant kickstand? Yell "YES!!"

16. Is left knee tired of playing hide-n-seek....now poking out pointing towards the target line? Yell "YES!!"

17. Watch my wife walk through the basement door, and over to the washer and dryer. As she walks back towards the door with a basket of clean clothes, she says "Ummmmmm, who are you yelling 'yes' to down here?" I say "the takaway concentration drill is getting close!! Couple more weeks!!" She gives me the blank stare again, and walks upstairs, cosing the door behind her. Then she opens the door, sticks her head through, and says "You know, there are medically supervised facilities for people like you," then closes the door again lol.

18. As video frames are forwarded, is club maintaing its glued-to-the-line relationship? Yell "YES!!"

19. Once club gets to the top, is left wrist in correct position, and right leg kickstand loaded? Am I in a position to spring the motherbluffing spit out of the shaft! Yell "YES!!"

20. Say to myself, "ok concentration drill mastered. All positions are acceptable. Looks close to Hogan!"

21. Now fast-forward to the part of the recording where I did the real speed movement.

22. Do same frame-by-frame analysis.

23. Watch as club remains glued to plane line, and wrists do exactly what they are supposed to, and legs/knees cooperate.

24. Then withing a half-a-second, watch as everything gets off plane and all positions get out of whack.

25. Cuss

26. Scratch my head and wonder "I can do it in concentration speed, but WHEN THE HECK WILL I BE ABLE TO DO IT AT REGULAR SPEED!?"

27. Go back to step #7 and repeat everything a few times, then get tired of cussing, and forget about the takeaway all together, and just start hitting balls, like I promised myself I would not do lol.

 

Then repeat all this for the next 20 years!

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I'm also done reading now (you kept me busy the whole day at the office :lol:)

 

Not familiar with the Hogan swing, so can't say if it's good or bad.

However, the level of detail and dedications... really hats off to you!

 

Just a suggestion, you might want to update your project in a more regular interval. It's easier for us to follow step by step instead of chugging down 20 posts full of info at once.

 

Good job!

 

I am sooooooo sorry for all the posts at once, but this was just a swing journal that I've been keeping. Everything is up-to-date now. When one of my golf buddies told me "you should check out mygolfspy.....they have a good forum about the golf swing," I had to check it out. Glad I'm here!!

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I also applaud your effort at this, even though i think your micro managing this a little bit, i'll put my two cents into this.

 

Your backswing is good enough frame by frame.

 

Your issues that reveal themselves in the follow through/finish are actually startdown issues that when fixed you'll look closer to Hogan than you are.

 

What I see first is that your right side is riding high on the downswing - evident in the over the plane of the first video downswing. Your right hand at impact is released over your left hand to the left making the over the top move. Which is why your in follow through, your right shoulder is high and your club isnt matching hogans plane line.

 

the fix i would suggest would be to start down with more of an under move with your right palm staying skyward longer. in other words if you were skipping a stone with your right hand towards the ball, the way your right hand is throwing would sink the stone - too much palm down.

 

remember hogan wanted to play a cut/fade shot. so therefore i'd suggest you keep your right side under long swinging more towards the flag and keep your right side/shoulder under the left the entire time from downswing to finish.

 

review hogans 5 fundamentals book where the image of throwing the medicine ball at the flag, but feel that your left palm is face down / right palm is face up at impact with that medicine ball and you'll see some huge changes in your swing.

 

Michael

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I also applaud your effort at this, even though i think your micro managing this a little bit, i'll put my two cents into this.

 

Your backswing is good enough frame by frame.

 

Your issues that reveal themselves in the follow through/finish are actually startdown issues that when fixed you'll look closer to Hogan than you are.

 

What I see first is that your right side is riding high on the downswing - evident in the over the plane of the first video downswing. Your right hand at impact is released over your left hand to the left making the over the top move. Which is why your in follow through, your right shoulder is high and your club isnt matching hogans plane line.

 

the fix i would suggest would be to start down with more of an under move with your right palm staying skyward longer. in other words if you were skipping a stone with your right hand towards the ball, the way your right hand is throwing would sink the stone - too much palm down.

 

remember hogan wanted to play a cut/fade shot. so therefore i'd suggest you keep your right side under long swinging more towards the flag and keep your right side/shoulder under the left the entire time from downswing to finish.

 

review hogans 5 fundamentals book where the image of throwing the medicine ball at the flag, but feel that your left palm is face down / right palm is face up at impact with that medicine ball and you'll see some huge changes in your swing.

 

Michael

 

 

Thanks Mike! Everything you point out is on my list too.

 

But here's where everybody's gonna open their eyes really wide, and make their eyebrows go up extra high......I've never read the 5 fundamentals book, and don't plan to until I get close to finishing the project. The reason: I've heard of tons of people that have read the book 10's of times, and can explain it in great detail, and have a solid understanding of what Hogan spoke of in the book, but when they've applied all this knowledge to their swing, it does not look like, or does not perform like Hogans. I want to try a different approach.

 

I have stumbled on a few ideas and feelings, and they make sense, but I just haven't trained to body yet.

 

Man.....I can't wait to read that book!

 

Hey, I see you're a bodybuilder. That was my previous hobby. I did a few SNBF shows. I have on posing routine on my youtube page. I'll be getting your book, Atomic Golf, but not Hogan's until I am close to Hoganism!

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More proof positive that one can play golf with muscles. also your one of the few that gets the angle of the back arm on that twisting rear double shot 0:47 correct. well done.

 

back to your swing, you may be limited by not wanting to hit your low ceiling. as your clubs "exit wound" through your body in the follow through DTL view is exiting between your hip and shoulder instead of shoulder and neck. the drills i mentioned will get you there faster than beating your head against the wall and having your wife continue to laugh at you rolleyes.gif well at least for this hehe you mustve been a treat on a contest diet

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I second what Matt said. This is an absolutely fascinating project. Best of luck with it.

 

Lol!!! I am laughing hard at your comment becuase my wife see's nothing fascinating about Hogans swing, and she could care less about golf. Be careful.....she may put you in the same "insane" category that she's put me in already lol. She still asks "are you done with this golf waste-of-time yet?" But good thing is that she doesn't ask as much. Maybe she's getting used to it! Yeeeeeeehawwwwwwwwww!

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I don't know much about Moe Norman, but the guy here looks close.

 

I can just hear a doubter saying "Moe Norman was the best ball striker EVER. Nobody can or will ever get close to swinging like him."

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8oIX8v8H8o

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUy0nwnndd0&feature=related

 

 

 

Why not the same for the Hogan swing?? Now where the heck is Hogan's best pupil hiding??

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I get the same questions all the time regarding "why" I'm doing this. Here's my reply from another forum:

 

Is your primary goal to have a swing that visually replicates Hogan's as closely as possible or to improve your game ? Yes, visual replication is the goal, and if I am able to get the visual down, then that has to, in some way, give an indirect ballstriking result. And by visually, I mean putting my swing vs Hogans, side-by-side on a screen, and step through it frame-by-frame. If the positions are close, then I am making progress. I think game improvement will be an indirect, but automatic occurance.

 

How long have you been playing golf ? Picked up my first club in 2007 at a company outing. I was a competetive softball player back then. One of my coworkers bet me that I couldn't hit the ball 100yds into the fairway. Said I could use any club I wanted to. I picked the driver cause it was the biggest lol. Had no idea about loft and side spin and grooves. Gave me 10 chances at it. 1st ball went about 200yds but had a small steering wheel attached to it; turned hard right. Ball #10 sliced two fairways over; after that day, I was hooked!

 

How often do you play ? March thru October, about once per week. One thing I puposefully do on the course that probably seems strange: I take no practice swings.....ever. Not even when putting. I have a reason for this.

 

What do you usually shoot ? All-time low this year is a 92. Avg score the past few years has been 101-108. Putting avg is approx 1.7.

 

How will you measure the success of your experiment ? For this phase of the project, Visually. For future projects, Better scores and Better ball striking.

 

Do you find your experiment more satisfying than playing a round of golf ? Sorry, don't know yet. havent finished the expriment yet. But, I can say, that there is not much satisfaction hitting balls 13yds in my basement swing lab lol!

 

Other thoughts.....why did I chose to use Hogan as my example? Because I like the way the swing looks, and I've never seen any other ordinary person have a swing that looked aesthetically as his. It's the most eye-appealing to me. If I had to pick a player of today, it would be Rory McIlroy, but again, this is not based on wins or performance or driving distance or any of that kind of stuff.....only the aesthetics.

 

Another question I get a lot.....why don't you just put all the effort into the "swing you were born with," rather than focus on trying to change your "natural swing" into someone elses? I am confused as to how people come up with the definition of "natrual swing." To me, there is no natural swing that you are born with. Just as there is no speaking accent that you are born with. If a Korean child, born to Korean parents, in Korea, is put on a plane, and flown to a farm in South Georgia, and is raised from age 0 to 15 by a surrounding of people that speak with a southern accent, this Korean child will have a southern accent. Just because they are born to Korean-speaking, Korean-looking parents, does not mean that they will "naturally" speak the same as them.

 

Same for the golf swing......you weren't born with any type of predisposed "golf swing" built into your DNA. You learned it. If you grew up never ever seeing anyone speaking of, or playing golf, and someone handed you a club, you would just stare at it, and have no idea what it is for. You would either have to have someone tell you how to use it, or observe it being used. If they told you that you swing the club by squatting your butt all the way to the ground, then jump up and spin around in two circles, this would be your "natural" swing. And if you practiced the heck out of it, and burned it into muscle-memory, you could play golf with it.

 

There are natural ROM's for each of us, but not a specific golf swing.

 

Regarding the "effort" queston, I do think I could tweek the "natural" swing I have developed over the past 4 years into scratch. But, I have decided that I don't like the swing "accent", and now want to change it. Naaaah, let me reword that.....I don't see anything wrong with my original swing accent, but now I want to see if it is at all possible to learn a new one.

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Still experimenting with lots of things. Haven't put together a solid training plan yet. Won't do that till I can get a basic understanding of a few more things. Only felt like doing some 3/4 swings today. My lower back has been giving me a tough time for the past few days; probably from me doing sort of a backwards lean as I swing through. Kim says I should give it up cause I'm tearing my body down. I say "no way....I'm in too deep and have learned too much." If it gets torn down to the point of needing a back transplant, I'll just work towards the Hogan in the Mr. Rogers yellow sweater. Until then........ONWARD MEN....ummmmm and women........C H A R G E !!!!

 

I am getting soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo stinkin tired of this basement. My daughter, the family artist, offered to paint a golf course mural on the white sheet I'm hitting into. :)

 

If the weather is good this weekend, I'm gonna get out in the front yard yard and hit some of those birdieballs onto the neighbors roof. Just hope I don't get that urge to tee up a ProV1 to see if I can fade it around the two houses at the cul de sac.

 

0:48 5-metal

2:57 Sam Snead 1-wood

3:46 Taylormade Driver 450cc (ball on mat no tee)

4:21 McGregor 5-wood (grip is hard as a rock and feels like plastic. Ball ricocheted up into the girders. Probably hit top of club cause it rotates in my palm from lack of tacky grip.)

5:01 3-metal

5:33 5-metal

6:65 Sam Snead 1-wood slo mo

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JL2nKT380ww

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Made it to the course on Friday afternoon, but not to play. I watched Bruce and my Dad battle each other for December bragging rights. Too perfect a day for them to pass it up. 69-70 degrees with very little wind. They were a little baffled by my choice not to play. They know about my swing reconstruction goal and only tried to talk me into it about 100 times. But luckily, I didn't even bring my clubs, cause I'm not ready to focus on ball flight/course management yet. But I did need to get out of the solitary basement atmosphere to smell the green grass and listen to some fiendly trash talking.

 

They only played the front nine. After 8 holes, they were tied. My Dad won on the 9th hole by 1 stroke, after Bruce's 2nd shot pin-balled off a pine tree. Didn't bother me not playing cause I got to do lots of caddying and swing analysis. I've put so much time into looking at swing video the past few months that I'm starting to get an understand of what I am looking at, and how to pick out the things that are fundamentally good and bad. I'm definitely not a swing instructor, but one of my main goals, besides the Hogan duplication attempt, is to help my Dad with his golf game. He is 67 years old, freshly retired, and shoots in the 95-101 range. He has fun playing the game, but what I see now in his swing is absolutely no weight shift. He swings off his back foot, which makes him very armsy. He is working is butt off swinging with all upper body. I don't know how he makes it through 18 holes without being tired and drained.

 

He said he saw my Take 14 video and that my swing looks different, but that I will probably not be able to transition it from the basement to the course. Says he's working on his game too, and that he will be giving us extra strokes to keep things competitive. We'll see.......

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I reluctantly hung out with Kim on Saturday; I don't mind spending quality time with her, but I do mind SHOPPING NONSTOP FOR 8 STINKIN HOURS!

 

I swallowed the above rant because when she stopped by a goodwill/thrift store, I got a chance to browse the "thrifty" golf area. There were a few used, off-brand clubs and bags that had been abandonded by their owners.

 

I stumbled across the following:

 

a Ben Hogan AMF 1-wood (cracked hozel area),

a Ben Hogan AMF 1-wood, (good)

a Ben Hogan AMF 3-wood, (good)

a Ben Hogan AMF 4-wood (missing screw in sole)

 

All appear to have the original AMF grip, based on the "exclusive Hogan AMF design" stamped on the end of the grip. I'm not sure if these are men's or women's clubs.

 

The 4-wood feels just like my TaylorMade 5-metal.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id8_kwyZdkU&feature=youtu.be

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I reluctantly hung out with Kim on Saturday; I don't mind spending quality time with her, but I do mind SHOPPING NONSTOP FOR 8 STINKIN HOURS!

 

I swallowed the above rant because when she stopped by a goodwill/thrift store, I got a chance to browse the "thrifty" golf area. There were a few used, off-brand clubs and bags that had been abandonded by their owners.

 

I stumbled across the following:

 

a Ben Hogan AMF 1-wood (cracked hozel area),

a Ben Hogan AMF 1-wood, (good)

a Ben Hogan AMF 3-wood, (good)

a Ben Hogan AMF 4-wood (missing screw in sole)

 

All appear to have the original AMF grip, based on the "exclusive Hogan AMF design" stamped on the end of the grip. I'm not sure if these are men's or women's clubs.

 

The 4-wood feels just like my TaylorMade 5-metal.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id8_kwyZdkU&feature=youtu.be

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I am simply fascinated by this post! I started a golf company a few years go to develop a golf swing device that could be programmed to assist a golfer to swing better. Along my journey I came across many stumbling obstacles but have gained much appreciation for how difficult the golf is to understand. Reading this post about copying Hogan's is truly an interesting read.

 

In the 6 years I have studied golf swings with our company research it has become obvious that there is no "one" swing that should be copied. Instead we discovered that every individual will develop his own custom swing that fits his body and to a lesser extent, their mind. How can I say these things? Because we have studied golf swings from most of the well known PGA Pro's and have reached some undeniable conclusions. Every golf swing does the same thing within the impact zone. That is, the club travels parallel to the target line with a square clubface. The only exceptions are intentional as the golfer plays a fade/draw/etc. And interestly most all swings look identical when you concentrate only on the swingpaths and clubface orientation. The exceptions are the unorthodox swings of Furyk/Garcia/and some others. But even they get back "on-plane" during the downswing. Why? Because they "have to". If they didn't the ball would go every which way.

 

The point then is why copy "any" great swing if in fact they are all alike? Well, you could do a lot of good picking a great swing to copy but don't do it for the reason you may think. Hogan and Arnie and Jack swung the way they did because their individual swings allowed them to be repeated and with enough velocity to propel the ball the distances they needed. If this were not true why don't Ben's and Jack's and Arnie's swings all look alike? But if you put those three on a "Bluescreen" and only showed their club being swung you would see some very common things. They all swung around their spines with almost perfect arcs or orbits and the clubfaces orient almost exactly. Their swinplanes vary because Hogan was very small and thus his swingplane was "flat". Jack swung fairly upright and Arnie was somewhere in between. But their swingpaths were consistent.

 

Touring pros today are models of consistent swingpaths. And they do it at 120MPH! Am's are lucky to hit 100MPH and because they have excess body motion in their attempt to gain power their swingpaths are wildly inconsistent. Again the point is consistency. So the "chicken or egg" conundrum continues with Hogan. Was his swing great because of how he controlled all his body placements and parts (as you are attempting to do) or did his body parts just fall into place naturally because he maintained a perfect swingpath? That is what my company is researching. We have our opinions and hope to forward our technology soon to prove it.

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