USGA coming after Phil & Bryson

[RickyBobby_PR]

17 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Results from any one tournament mean pretty much nothing when evaluating long-term trends.  @LICC is right when he says that equipment advances have contributed significantly to increasing driving distance at the top levels.  I don't necessarily agree that equipment is the primary factor, its nearly impossible to separate the influence of any one change over the years.  

Its interesting to read those who say the Ruling Bodies should have done more sooner, that they should have been able to "crystal ball" the impact of some of the equipment advances, and limit them before they occurred.  Its hard to argue that, really, I don't know that its really possible to predict the impact of changes.  But in the recent action, the Ruling Bodies ARE looking at a trend towards longer drivers, and ARE taking an action to limit further distance increases at the top levels of golf.  The rule will impact an extremely small percentage of those top players, but it will eliminate one mechanism for distance increases in the future.  

My post about the course was related to design and layout and that despite all the distance gain some courses still hold  aren’t overpowered by the distance game and that designing new courses don’t need to do 8000 yards if they used more creative designs.

Debating what has lead to more distance or whether it’s a problem or not is a debate I bowed out of already because people’s minds aren’t going to be changed and some will argue the samething over and over. It’s a never ending merry go round discussion that’s been hashed out way too much on every forum

[GolfSpy_APH]

1 minute ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Debating what has lead to more distance or whether it’s a problem or not is a debate I bowed out of already because people’s minds aren’t going to be changed and some will argue the samething over and over. It’s a never ending merry go round discussion that’s been hashed out way too much on every forum

Exactly this, we have already gone through this and know the road in which it leads. It is all good to have varying opinions and I'm sure if there needs to be a pure distance debate thread it can be fired up again. The point of this one is the change from 48 inch drivers to 46 inch drivers. Yes the distance debate has a part in this, but lets not loose focus on the main topic in this thread. 

[LICC]

1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

2019 winner -14 by a guy ranked 209 in driving distance. Scoring is always low at that course

JB Holmes won it in 2019. He is one of the longer hitters on Tour. In 2019 he ranked 16th for the year in driving distance.

[cnosil]

14 minutes ago, LICC said:

I'm not sure why you think these support your argument. Fowler carried it 275 with modern balls. Take at least another 10 yards off for the ball, and that is substantially shorter than he hits it with modern equipment. Same with DJ. He hit it 290 with a modern ball. Take back more yardage based on the ball and he hit much shorter than he hits it with modern equipment. 

It shows that the video that you posted isn’t  really  100% accurate the  numbers in the videos I posted are pretty close to the carry distance with today’s 46” drivers; not the total distance shown  on the pga tours website, and with practice players would continue to hit them better and longer. The 46” limitation is a step to limit the the use of club length  to increase distance  and it is the ruling bodies being proactive  to try and limit distance.  Even if we stop all equipment advances,  players will continue to swing faster and more and more players will hit the ball farther.  While a handful of players will be impacted by limiting driver length the overall impact of the change is negligible if any at all.  The only reason this is a topic is because it is a new change; probably won’t even be discussed at any depth in 6-8 months because the impact is so small.  It won’t make a course play differently, it won’t change strategy, it won’t impact scoring, and for those that think distance is a problem it won’t reduce distance.  

[DaveP043]

32 minutes ago, cnosil said:

 The only reason this is a topic is because it is a new change

This, its the first actual change, more than 18 months after the "topics for future evaluation" were published, and 8 months after this specific change was outlined.  For some reason, people are surprised that the Ruling Bodies did exactly what they said they were planning.

Also, this is a topic now due to Mickelson and his complaining.

[BIG STU]

On 10/17/2021 at 12:56 PM, jaskanski said:

Yet another case of too little too late. For those with shorter memories, it wasn't that long ago when the average driver length was 42" and the average shaft weight was 100g+ and the average driver size was sub 370cc.

Just like any other sport where strict guidelines where pushed to their logical extremes in their search for a competitive edge, shafts gained length and dropped in weight, with head sizes maxing out at 460cc once the RB's cottoned on to the dramatic shift in efficiency.

Had the RB's enough foresight to see how the pro game changed with these rapid advances in tech, then restrictions could have been put in place a lot sooner to control distance and negate the need to make courses ridiculously long for the average golfer.

Combine that tech with subtle changes in ball construction, course agrimony that encourages superior roll out and the golfers themselves who are no slouches either and you have a recipe for disaster for the vast majority of amateur golfers who struggle to make any advance in handicap index.

Long story short - why stop at 46"? get it down to 45" or less and restore a bit of sanity.

I can remember way back in the day when I played a really jacked driver at the time a 44" Power Bilt Persimmon of course I was about 45 years younger too!

[Hook DeLoft]

I haven't read all the replies, so sorry if this has already been mentioned.  It seems to me this is the first step to bifurcation.  Instead of legislating different rules for pros/elite amateurs, the USGA can just "recommend" local rules for elite competition. 

Personally, I don't have a problem with that.  I'll never compete in an elite competition.  And with the local rules, I can still try a 50" driver if I am so inclined.  I would like to see the same thing done with the long putter.  The long putter has never worked for me, but I have seen some players with the yips enjoying the game again because of it. 

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, Hook DeLoft said:

Instead of legislating different rules for pros/elite amateurs, the USGA can just "recommend" local rules for elite competition. 

A big difference is that this Local Rule doesn't require manufacturers to develop completely different sets of equipment to meet the Rule.  A "tour" golf ball would do that, would require separate R&D and manufacturing efforts, but the club length limit doesn't have that same effect.  I'm with you, I wouldn't want to see two separate sets of equipment for "regular" players vs. "elite" players, but this length limit doesn't bother me.  Its more similar to the "one ball rule", which is also used almost exclusively for elite competitions.

[PMookie]

I love Lou Stagner for pointing-out the idiocy currently centered around golf and the “distance problem”! BOOM.

Bobby Jones, 1921!!!!!!!!!!

 

[BIG STU]

On 10/29/2021 at 12:20 PM, DaveP043 said:

A big difference is that this Local Rule doesn't require manufacturers to develop completely different sets of equipment to meet the Rule.  A "tour" golf ball would do that, would require separate R&D and manufacturing efforts, but the club length limit doesn't have that same effect.  I'm with you, I wouldn't want to see two separate sets of equipment for "regular" players vs. "elite" players, but this length limit doesn't bother me.  Its more similar to the "one ball rule", which is also used almost exclusively for elite competitions.

Agree the length rule comes no where near to affecting me--- As tall as I am at 6'2 " I play a short driver 43" for my height. I have experimented and for me anything over that I have bad control issues which can be very erratic I mean as extreme Army Golf as in left or right with absolutely no control.  With the current state of my back I would not dream of swinging anything longer---- As far as burification of the rules I could care less--- I will say this though Golf is the only sport for now that has the same general rules and equipment rules for pros and amateurs alike. And I will say different rules can cause confusion--- A good example as it was told to me and I do not know the rules for a fact--- A friend of mine whose kid plays Dixie Youth Baseball recently got penalized in another league over his bat--- It was legal in DYB but not in the other league. In dirt track racing there are so may associations now what is legal in some associations is illegal in others and that is not counting rules at local tracks either. My ex home track one of my buds on FB the other night informed me that if I ran that track every week like I used to I would have to have 3 different cars with different set ups to confirm to what association was running that paticular night or if it was a "home race"---- Yeah I could see issues cropping up with say high school to college etc--- Old retired guys like me that do not play stipulated events etc and do not keep stipulated handicaps it does not affect---- Yep honestly I can see both sides of the rules debacle

[Grasper Parsnip]

The best way to reign back distance on drives is to change the rules on golf ball design, knocking 2 inches of a driver length will simply make Bryson more accurate in the fairways, any distance loss to Bryson would be neglibile.

He has worked very very hard on his swing, its speed and his flexibilty and balance, along with his club and shaft selections and putting technique. Ever lengthening golf courses simply plays more and more into the hands of the big hitters.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Grasper Parsnip
spelling

[DaveP043]

2 hours ago, Grasper Parsnip said:

The best way to reign back distance on drives

Once again, the stated goal of the Distance Insights project is to minimize future increases in distance from equipment, NOT to roll back distance across the board.  

[Siamese Moose]

3 hours ago, BIG STU said:

With the current state of my back I would not dream of swinging anything longer

I'm short (5'6") with back issues. On the advice of my instructor, I've gone to a longer driver, and I got both longer distance and improved accuracy. His rationale is that the longer shaft makes me swing a little flatter, taking pressure off the back, and I make a freer swing. He recommends it for most seniors. Twenty years ago I went with a shorter shaft, and saw significant improvements then. Now at 62, it's a different story. Fortunately I love tinkering, so I'm always open to trying something new. I realize that what works for me is not going to be the same for everybody. Best of luck with your back!

[BIG STU]

1 hour ago, Siamese Moose said:

I'm short (5'6") with back issues. On the advice of my instructor, I've gone to a longer driver, and I got both longer distance and improved accuracy. His rationale is that the longer shaft makes me swing a little flatter, taking pressure off the back, and I make a freer swing. He recommends it for most seniors. Twenty years ago I went with a shorter shaft, and saw significant improvements then. Now at 62, it's a different story. Fortunately I love tinkering, so I'm always open to trying something new. I realize that what works for me is not going to be the same for everybody. Best of luck with your back!

Thanks back at you-- ( LOL pun intended) I love tinkering myself and your post gave me some food for future thought I am more upright and correct it some in the hitting zone--- Lately due to me changing to graphite shafted irons and waiting on the shafts some for now playing pain free. 

[Grasper Parsnip]

2 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

Once again, the stated goal of the Distance Insights project is to minimize future increases in distance from equipment, NOT to roll back distance across the board.  

Once again the more players that put the hard work in and beef up etc like Bryson has, they will hit the ball further and further and more of them wil do it. Knocking 2 inches off a driver length will not stop that.

[DaveP043]

38 minutes ago, Grasper Parsnip said:

Once again the more players that put the hard work in and beef up etc like Bryson has, they will hit the ball further and further and more of them wil do it. Knocking 2 inches off a driver length will not stop that.

OK, and what does that have to do with regulating equipment?  Do YOU have any factual information that indicates that someone will try to "reign back distance on drives"?  I'm certain that there are people who would prefer that driving distance be reduced, but that goal hasn't been adopted by the Ruling Bodies, based on all published reports.

[Grasper Parsnip]

17 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

OK, and what does that have to do with regulating equipment?  Do YOU have any factual information that indicates that someone will try to "reign back distance on drives"?  I'm certain that there are people who would prefer that driving distance be reduced, but that goal hasn't been adopted by the Ruling Bodies, based on all published reports.

Who rattled YOUR cage?  This thread is not all about you and your opinions,  any way YOU said "

"But in the recent action, the Ruling Bodies ARE looking at a trend towards longer drivers, and ARE taking an action to limit further distance increases at the top levels of golf.  The rule will impact an extremely small percentage of those top players, but it will eliminate one mechanism for distance increases in the future."

I never claimed that anyone was trying to reign back driving distances YOU did but if the governing body wants to shorten driver length from tees, then this is what they are at least seemingly trying to do, at least to a few Pros and to any future pros that may want to go down this 48 inch avenue.

  I said if they wanted to limit driving distances they could simply change the costruction of the modern golf ball.

Most pros hit drivers lengths at 45" or less, much shorter than those being sold to the average golfer as standard as the Pros are smart and want to hit fairways and not chip out from trees for their 2nd shot or take 3 off the tee.

Taking 2 inches off a driver length will not be noticable to lower distance off the tee and will actually make the big hitters that use such a driver more accurate.

In the not too distant past they lengthened courses to stop  Daly, Tiger etc and just played into their hands by making it less competetive for the big hitters and harder for the skilfull shorter hitters.

Soon enough thanks to Bryson leading the way and showing what is possible in golf we will have a new generation of golfers who train like Bryson and they will continue to hit further and further, though Height, Muscles, Flexibility and Technique. whether the ruling bodies or YOU or me like it or not.

Edited November 11, 2021 by Grasper Parsnip
speling

[cnosil]

3 hours ago, Grasper Parsnip said:

they will continue to hit further and further, though Height, Muscles, Flexibility and Technique. whether the ruling bodies or YOU or me like it or not.

Be careful you will spin up the human fitness and ability doesn’t increase distance; it is all because of equipment crowd. 

[LICC]

On 11/9/2021 at 9:40 PM, PMookie said:

I love Lou Stagner for pointing-out the idiocy currently centered around golf and the “distance problem”! BOOM.

Bobby Jones, 1921!!!!!!!!!!

 

In his book On Golf, Jim Flick tells about studies of Bobby Jones’s swing done by Dr. David Williams (pp. 53-54). Williams fed videotape of Jones’s swing, taken from the previously-mentioned movies, into a biomechanical computer and made all sorts of measurements of the swing. The tape showed Jones driving the ball 250-260 yards, and measured his swing speed at 113 mph.

[PMookie]

It always frustrates me when ANY governing body says, “This is so,” and most just blindly agree. I’ve been saying the “distance problem” isn’t one because even Bobby Jones was recorded as having hit a ball over 300 yards NUMEROUS times, even published the info here. So, once again, I’ll post to show distances HAVEN’T increased dramatically in the last 18-20 years like the USGA wants you to believe. Bryson is a WHOLE TWO YARDS longer than Kuehne was in 2003. Two. Yards. Oh, and I can’t wait for the comments, “But Paul, MORE people on Tour hit it longer.” Um, no one is hitting it longer than the “average leader” for the year, so that’s moot to me. 
Anyway. Ugh. Here’s your official pic. And by-the-way, what has Bryson had to do to GET those 2 yards on Kuehne?! Distance problem… Whatever! Now get off my lawn!!!

[LICC]

On 12/30/2021 at 9:46 AM, PMookie said:

It always frustrates me when ANY governing body says, “This is so,” and most just blindly agree. I’ve been saying the “distance problem” isn’t one because even Bobby Jones was recorded as having hit a ball over 300 yards NUMEROUS times, even published the info here. So, once again, I’ll post to show distances HAVEN’T increased dramatically in the last 18-20 years like the USGA wants you to believe. Bryson is a WHOLE TWO YARDS longer than Kuehne was in 2003. Two. Yards. Oh, and I can’t wait for the comments, “But Paul, MORE people on Tour hit it longer.” Um, no one is hitting it longer than the “average leader” for the year, so that’s moot to me. 
Anyway. Ugh. Here’s your official pic. And by-the-way, what has Bryson had to do to GET those 2 yards on Kuehne?! Distance problem… Whatever! Now get off my lawn!!!

Median driving distance on Tour in 2002- 280 yards. 
Median driving distance on Tour in 2021- 297 yards. 
 

Tenth longest average driving distance in 2002- 292 yards

Tenth longest average driving distance in 2021- 311 yards

Edited January 16, 2022 by LICC

[Shapotomous]

@PMookie  I think their tape measure was broke in 2013.......

[GolfSpy_APH]

On 12/30/2021 at 3:46 PM, PMookie said:

It always frustrates me when ANY governing body says, “This is so,” and most just blindly agree. I’ve been saying the “distance problem” isn’t one because even Bobby Jones was recorded as having hit a ball over 300 yards NUMEROUS times, even published the info here. So, once again, I’ll post to show distances HAVEN’T increased dramatically in the last 18-20 years like the USGA wants you to believe. Bryson is a WHOLE TWO YARDS longer than Kuehne was in 2003. Two. Yards. Oh, and I can’t wait for the comments, “But Paul, MORE people on Tour hit it longer.” Um, no one is hitting it longer than the “average leader” for the year, so that’s moot to me. 
Anyway. Ugh. Here’s your official pic. And by-the-way, what has Bryson had to do to GET those 2 yards on Kuehne?! Distance problem… Whatever! Now get off my lawn!!!

What year does anyone think we do NOT see Bryson atop this list? 

[PMookie]

34 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

What year does anyone think we do NOT see Bryson atop this list? 

When Wilco Nienaber gets on the US Tour!

[GolfSpy_APH]

14 minutes ago, PMookie said:

When Wilco Nienaber gets on the US Tour!

He is already! Or was for several events last season.

[PMookie]

Just now, GolfSpy_APH said:

He is already! Or was for several events last season.

But not enough to be full-time, or be included in the stat ranking. Once he is, Bryson will be beaten. Assuming Wilco can make some cuts!!! 

[cnosil]

2 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

What year does anyone think we do NOT see Bryson atop this list? 

Not this year, maybe 2023 or 2024.   

https://www.pgatour.com/korn-ferry-tour/stats.html

 

[PMookie]

On 1/16/2022 at 10:38 AM, GolfSpy_APH said:

What year does anyone think we do NOT see Bryson atop this list? 

Or this guy, making his debut in Palm Springs! 6’10”! Go to the Instagram links to see him swing. Crazy!!!

https://www.golfchannel.com/news/golfer-610-kyle-berkshire-swing-speed-and-hes-playing-american-express

[PMookie]

Here is duPreez on the range. Holy cow! Sorry Bryson, you ain’t “the Man”!!!

 

[Quadhole]

On 1/16/2022 at 8:16 AM, LICC said:

Median driving distance on Tour in 2002- 280 yards. 
Median driving distance on Tour in 2021- 297 yards. 
 

Tenth longest average driving distance in 2002- 292 yards

Tenth longest average driving distance in 2021- 311 yards

I agree... Limits are good. Problem with us Americans is, never good enough and always money to be made growing in as many directions as possible... Always and Always about $ and greed