Built a beast.

[RoverRick]

I’ll skip the long preamble and cut to the chase. I have a Ping G425Max 10.5 on a Mitsubishi Tensei AV Orange 65S I was fitted for a year ago, before I tore up my knee. This caused me to change to the Moe Norman/Todd Graves Single Plane Swing, mainly because there is no knee stress. but that’s another post. 
 

I knew that this driver was no longer the best fit for me. I could tell that I was spinning the ball too much. The ball was just sort of stalling and falling down. Since it was still in the fairway, and I had all the Ping fairway metals in the bag it was no big deal. Then Taylormade came to our club for fittings. 
 

Full disclosure, my intention for scheduling the fitting was because I wanted to hit my Ping on the FlightScope, but after a couple of months dely for COVID, I was ready to take the plunge if there was a significant performance improvement. There was. 
 

I loved most things about the SIM2 Max. Looks at address, sound, and performance were outstanding. The bottom of the club didn’t excite me too much. However, the Fujikura VENTUS Blue 5S was out of this world. I hit the center of the face time after time with that shaft. Then the Taylormade Rep made a crucial mistake. He said, “You have 3-5 mph ball speed increase with the SIM2 Max because if the hotter face.” 
 

BS. The faces on both clubs are pretty close to the legal limit and no way can that account for the difference. The true difference was G425Max 206 g / SIM2 Max 196 g, Tensei 65S is 69 g and VENTUS Blue 5S is 59 g, the Tensei has a stiff butt section and the VENTUS a stiff butt and tip section and softer in the middle. So overall the Ping setup is 20 g heavier or 7% heavier than the TM. And the VENTUS delivered the club head in the optimal window. 
 

Could I get the same performance out of the PING?
 

While watching various comparisons on line I came across TXG Build A Beast series. So I got a really good deal on the VENTUS Blue 5S and bought a 17 g weight to replace the 26g stock weight. Since the head weight arrived first, I put it in and went to the course. Right away I could see the difference. Before I was getting virtually no roll and now I’m getting a lower flight and a little more roll. I was perhaps 10 yard average further than I was.
 

Then the VENTUS arrived with a LH TM adapter on it, so I stuck it in my M5. I will admit that I was considering buying a SIM2 Max head only after just a few holes. Actually, the shaft didn’t arrive on time and USPS said they delivered it to my house in Mathews NC. Since I live in Texas and have no other house, I was concerned. I pointed this out and immediately my money was returned. Then the next day, my shaft arrived. I contacted the seller and said I got the shaft so I felt I should pay for it. He said , “Okay, pay me $45 to my PayPal account.” So based on that I felt I needed to go ahead with my experiment. I had only spent $58 so go for it. 
 

I had about an hour to kill today, and of course the range was closed for maintenance, so I went on the course.  After I spent a bit dialing the new shaft and weight in, I took 3 brand new TP5X’s and marked my balls 1, 2, 3. The first ball I hit with the VENTUS and the 17g weight. (SIM2 specs) the second I hit with the 17g and Tensei, and the third was with the 25g weight and Tensei. I would go to the shortest ball and shoot the range finder to the other two. 
 

After hitting on 5 holes this way, sadly that pesky job intervened, and I had to leave with my results. The shortest was always the Tensei and 25 g weight. And average of 12 yards ahead of that was the 17g weight Tensei.  The VENTUS and 17g weight averaged 27 more yards and the longest was 33.6 yards. What validated this was that every time they were in the same relative position. VENTUS was by far the longest and the heavier weight always shortest. This has not been my experience with irons. I hit DG S300 120 g shafts the longest. 
 

I didn’t have a SIM2 Max to compare it against but this last weekend with the M5 on the VENTUS. I was about a club less into the greens than normal, but with a 25 mph wind last weekend it was hard to tell. Today however, I was 2 clubs closer to the greens with this set up. 
 

I’ll update this again after playing a tournament this weekend but I think I did build a beast. Or as beastly as a 57 yo with bad knees is going to get. 
 

Have any of you tried anything like this? 

[Hook DeLoft]

I recently tried removing the weight from the back of my G425 Max. I’m a slower swinger and have the stock Alta senior flex shaft. After removing the weight, I was averaging about 20 yards longer off the tee, but was hitting a lot more wild shots, including a huge slice. I have never been a slicer. My right miss has always been a big push. Without the weight, the right miss started right and then curved WAY right like Bubba Watson having fun seeing how far he can curve it. 

I am now thinking I will leave the weight out and slowly add lead tape until I find a happy medium and order the weight that is closest to the weight of the lead tape that works best. 

Light weight equals speed. The trick is controlling it. 

[twyatt700]

Love this post! I think the real truth in this is that the head only matters to the point of the overall weight and distribution of that weight. All the faces a basically going to produce the same ball speed. So the only other factor has to be the shafts. As my pro told me last week… the heads don’t matter as long as the shaft is right for you. Looks like the lighter Ventus is the answer here. Quick question, are you using the velocore ventus or just the stick option that comes with the Sim2? 

[RickyBobby_PR]

14 minutes ago, twyatt700 said:

Love this post! I think the real truth in this is that the head only matters to the point of the overall weight and distribution of that weight. All the faces a basically going to produce the same ball speed. So the only other factor has to be the shafts. As my pro told me last week… the heads don’t matter as long as the shaft is right for you. Looks like the lighter Ventus is the answer here. Quick question, are you using the velocore ventus or just the stick option that comes with the Sim2? 

And nearly every fitter will tell you it’s finding the right head first and the shaft is used for fine tuning the launch characteristics. The head is used to get the bal into the right launch and spin window. Then shaft is used to dial those in to optimize carry and total. 

[cnosil]

39 minutes ago, twyatt700 said:

Love this post! I think the real truth in this is that the head only matters to the point of the overall weight and distribution of that weight. All the faces a basically going to produce the same ball speed. So the only other factor has to be the shafts. As my pro told me last week… the heads don’t matter as long as the shaft is right for you. Looks like the lighter Ventus is the answer here. Quick question, are you using the velocore ventus or just the stick option that comes with the Sim2? 

On a centered strike you are probably correct that all heads can potentially produce the same ball speeds. However, the other differences with heads would be how they handle miss hits as this is where most people lose ball speed.  Find the head that has max forgiveness for you miss.  Also head weighing and appearance influences how you swing the club and thus influences results.  

[twyatt700]

37 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

And nearly every fitter will tell you it’s finding the right head first and the shaft is used for fine tuning the launch characteristics. The head is used to get the bal into the right launch and spin window. Then shaft is used to dial those in to optimize carry and total. 

 

10 minutes ago, cnosil said:

On a centered strike you are probably correct that all heads can potentially produce the same ball speeds. However, the other differences with heads would be how they handle miss hits as this is where most people lose ball speed.  Find the head that has max forgiveness for you miss.  Also head weighing and appearance influences how you swing the club and thus influences results.  

I'm not saying head doesn't matter, but I think that it doesn't matter as much as we are told it does... as in the latest model isn't going to always be better. I just think you can get more impact with the properly fitted shaft verschanging the head... which is the idea of the original post. 

[cnosil]

15 minutes ago, twyatt700 said:

 

I'm not saying head doesn't matter, but I think that it doesn't matter as much as we are told it does... as in the latest model isn't going to always be better. I just think you can get more impact with the properly fitted shaft verschanging the head... which is the idea of the original post. 

While the latest model may not be better, I think head design has a bigger influence than shaft.  From my experience the wrong head design can not be fixed with a different shaft.  Shaft is definitely important to help deliver the club properly but it won’t make a low spinning head have more spin. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

29 minutes ago, twyatt700 said:

 

I'm not saying head doesn't matter, but I think that it doesn't matter as much as we are told it does... as in the latest model isn't going to always be better. I just think you can get more impact with the properly fitted shaft verschanging the head... which is the idea of the original post. 

Which is the opposite of what the majority of fifers do. They all start with the head. If it’s a brand agnostic fitter they will find the right brand and then loft in that brands driver head that gets the ball into the correct launch window. Once that is determined they then use the shafts to fine tune to the fitting. So saying the head doesn’t matter as much as the shaft is contradictory to how the vast majority of fitters do their job. Go to TpI and they will staff you in a head, go to TXG same. You can even watch it on TXG YouTube.

I’ve been fit by the staff from Ping HQ twice and it was head first. Every other Ping, Titleist, Callaway, Cobra and TM fitting I’ve done and watched has been head first. The guy that is the LPGA tour rep used to be the Ping rep here. Head first then shaft and for shaft it was about how the shaft and the overall club felt

 

[Hook DeLoft]

I'll settle this.  The head and the shaft are both important.

[BIG STU]

4 hours ago, Hook DeLoft said:

I recently tried removing the weight from the back of my G425 Max. I’m a slower swinger and have the stock Alta senior flex shaft. After removing the weight, I was averaging about 20 yards longer off the tee, but was hitting a lot more wild shots, including a huge slice. I have never been a slicer. My right miss has always been a big push. Without the weight, the right miss started right and then curved WAY right like Bubba Watson having fun seeing how far he can curve it. 

I am now thinking I will leave the weight out and slowly add lead tape until I find a happy medium and order the weight that is closest to the weight of the lead tape that works best. 

Light weight equals speed. The trick is controlling it. 

Absolutely 110% correct--- Good example is my M-6. My bud club ho Bear bought it new and gave it to me said it was a POS. Now it had too much shaft in it for him to begin with. I was still recovering from my back injuries and it was too much for me. I ended up doing a trade deal and got an Evenflow Red Regular and put it in. I messed with it for a while and got it set kinda odd on paper for me but it was a bomber for me. As I progressed and was working out with a Skilz trainer and a weighted Medicus club I started swinging hard and hooking the crap out of it. Found out it was too light for me. I added lead tape and that slowed me down. Found out inadvertantly that since I was rehabbing so hard that I actually picked up SS from even my pre accident days. I have had to throttle my swing down some to get my control back but I do have a little extra in the tank when I have to reach out and touch someone. What throws some people off who play with me a lot know I set up for a cut. It throws some of them off when I aim dead right and hit it in the middle. One of my buds remarked the other day that he hoped I hit that sweeper hook if I hit my cut I may kill someone 2 neighborhoods over. I can not do that shot on call with anything other than the driver anything else I make a over the top move and snap it or top it. But yeah in a nutshell weight has a lot to do with it

[BIG STU]

44 minutes ago, Hook DeLoft said:

I'll settle this.  The head and the shaft are both important.

Correct--- I call it total engineering------ As a rule a great club fitter is brand agnostic in both the head and shaft department---

[RoverRick]

6 hours ago, Hook DeLoft said:

I recently tried removing the weight from the back of my G425 Max. I’m a slower swinger and have the stock Alta senior flex shaft. After removing the weight, I was averaging about 20 yards longer off the tee, but was hitting a lot more wild shots, including a huge slice. I have never been a slicer. My right miss has always been a big push. Without the weight, the right miss started right and then curved WAY right like Bubba Watson having fun seeing how far he can curve it. 

I am now thinking I will leave the weight out and slowly add lead tape until I find a happy medium and order the weight that is closest to the weight of the lead tape that works best. 

Light weight equals speed. The trick is controlling it. 

You can buy 7 different weights for the Ping G425Max.  As you reduce the weight you will lower the MOI, launch, and probably the spin a few hundred RPM’s. There will definitely be a trade in forgiveness and distance, but there has to be the right one for you. When you compare a $14 each for the weight vs a new $500 driver, you can probably pick the right one for you. I chose the 17g because I was wanting to replicate the weight of the SIM2Max. I considered getting a couple of them, but I was more concerned with replication. 

Go to eBay and type weight for Ping G425 and pick one or 2. The 17 g is also the one that is in the LST.

[RoverRick]

5 hours ago, twyatt700 said:

Love this post! I think the real truth in this is that the head only matters to the point of the overall weight and distribution of that weight. All the faces a basically going to produce the same ball speed. So the only other factor has to be the shafts. As my pro told me last week… the heads don’t matter as long as the shaft is right for you. Looks like the lighter Ventus is the answer here. Quick question, are you using the velocore ventus or just the stick option that comes with the Sim2? 

I thought about this, but I was hitting the stock VENTUS in the fitting. Veloccore was $380 and the stock with a LH TM adaptor was much cheaper. So I figured the stock was enough to try. And it works great.

The added bonus was when he refunded my money and the shaft showed up the next day. I paid just $45 for it. However, if this had turned out differently, or if IT DOES TURN OUT DIFFERENTLY, I can buy a SIM2 head and adaptor and change it back to a TM shaft.

Besides, I have closer to a $45 swing than a $380 swing.

[RoverRick]

4 hours ago, cnosil said:

While the latest model may not be better, I think head design has a bigger influence than shaft.  From my experience the wrong head design can not be fixed with a different shaft.  Shaft is definitely important to help deliver the club properly but it won’t make a low spinning head have more spin. 

There is no question that they both play a roll. The VENTUS was way better for me than the Tensei and Smoke Yellow that I also had and didn’t mention. The TM in no way has more forgiveness than the PING. All the reviews only knocked the PING for its slower ball speed and heavy weight. The heavier weight was the reason for the slower balls speed and in the TXG Build a Beast, the TM won out but it was also his gamer, verses a driver they cobbled together for the video.

[RoverRick]

I believe the moral to this story is that with the proper fitting any modern driver can become more beastly. I just did it myself. I have a garage full of failed experiments, I only post the successes, or perhaps that is singular, success and the jury is still out on that. Would it beat the SIM2? Don’t know, I didn’t buy one. I have some friends with them but they have to have the proper specs. I’ll see this weekend.

[RickyBobby_PR]

2 hours ago, RoverRick said:

I thought about this, but I was hitting the stock VENTUS in the fitting. Veloccore was $380 and the stock with a LH TM adaptor was much cheaper. So I figured the stock was enough to try. And it works great.

The added bonus was when he refunded my money and the shaft showed up the next day. I paid just $45 for it. However, if this had turned out differently, or if IT DOES TURN OUT DIFFERENTLY, I can buy a SIM2 head and adaptor and change it back to a TM shaft.

Besides, I have closer to a $45 swing than a $380 swing.

The TM stock Ventus and the velocore are only the same in name. They have completely different profiles and the 70t flag in the velocore isn’t in the TM stock ventus

[RoverRick]

3 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

The TM stock Ventus and the velocore are only the same in name. They have completely different profiles and the 70t flag in the velocore isn’t in the TM stock ventus

It doesn’t matter. The TM VENTUS was what I was hitting. I also saw the TXG video where they compared them, but the TM VENTUS Blue 5S was the one that fits my swing perfectly. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

9 hours ago, RoverRick said:

It doesn’t matter. The TM VENTUS was what I was hitting. I also saw the TXG video where they compared them, but the TM VENTUS Blue 5S was the one that fits my swing perfectly. 

Wasnt doubting that you the tm ventus was what you were hitting or that it was working out for you. Was just pointing out that they are completely different shafts, especially since you were mentioning the price and what seemed like you may have been contemplating the velocore version. Being two different shafts that could be a very expensive lesson of one bought the velocore thinking it was the same as or would perform the same as the made for version.

[RoverRick]

1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Wasnt doubting that you the tm ventus was what you were hitting or that it was working out for you. Was just pointing out that they are completely different shafts, especially since you were mentioning the price and what seemed like you may have been contemplating the velocore version. Being two different shafts that could be a very expensive lesson of one bought the velocore thinking it was the same as or would perform the same as the made for version.

Before I spent $380 MSRP for a shaft, I could trade in the Ping and spend $200 more for the SIM or sell the Ping and buy the SIM. It was the relative cheapness of trying this experiment that made it worthwhile. 

[2Down]

cool experiment, thanks.  I did kinda the same thing.  Was demoing the Ping 425 max with the Alta R shaft and hit it consistently but with a lot of spin and the ball just went nowhere.  Tried a Sim Max 10.5 (last years version) with the stock Velocore Red 5R in it and was just as consistent and twenty or so yards farther down the pike.  By the way, I think the Alta is quite a bit softer than the ventus and that may have accounted for the spin.  Didn't think to change the weight at the back out like you did but hey, I was in my local dicks.    

I got the SIM and then went and chopped an inch off the butt end and added a bit heavier weight to the thing from billy bobs.  end result was about the same distance and even more consistency with it. Im driving the ball better than I have in a long time.   so you know, my good drives are about 250-60 with the occasional BOMB (for me) out to 270-80.

Any way the stock ventus really preforms for me like it did for you and I wonder what if any changes would come about with a velocore version of the shaft.  Course like most all wines, the more you spend the better it will appear to be, too you. 

          

Edited October 26, 2021 by 2Down

[Hoyoymac]

A couple weeks from now I have a driver fitting scheduled with the main purpose of being able to try real deal aftermarket shafts in the Ping G410 LST driver that I currently have.  I hit this driver generally pretty well, but would like to try something other than the stock shafts that were available when I was fit into it.

The cost of the driver fitting is a bargain in my mind to use their facility, pay for their time and expertise, use their inventory of expensive shafts, their launch monitors, etc. to try and find a shaft that will allow me to hopefully further improve my dispersion and gain some distance.  

Certainly a lot cheaper, quicker and easier than buying a bunch of expensive shafts and disposing of the losers.

I am certainly willing to try newer head and shaft combinations as well while I’m there. 

But after the fitting if I find a better combination I will most likely just buy the components off of Ebay and install everything my self.  

But based on your experiment I will also try using different weights in the head as well because my Ping Driver has a current swing weight of D7.  Reducing the swing weight might make a difference.

 

[Micah T]

I just bought 6, 10, & 20g weights for my Ping G410 LST.  Very interested to see how lighter and heavier versions will affect my swing speed , ball speed, dispersion and backspin numbers. 

[RoverRick]

I went ahead and bought a 7g weight for the Max. That will give me a 27, 17, 7. I’m still playing around with the shafts and weights. Trying to reduce the spin. 

 

[Micah T]

The weight change in the LST has been a game changer! I’ve switched to a 6 gram weight instead of the standard 16 gram, and have seen an exponential improvement! Best of all I’m having no trouble closing the face, and my dispersion has improved along with hitting my preferred shape more often.

16gram LST:

158 mph ball speed/ 106-109 mph  club head speed

6 gram LST:

165 mph ball speed/ 110-114 mph club head speed 

[HDTVMAN]

On my G400MAX, I replaced the Ping Tour shaft with a Mits Diamana 60+, but cut down to 44.5" (I'm 6'), and I'm killing it in the short grass. I have added lead tape in a "V" shape from the weight to the right and left corners of the head in 1" increments, which allows me to adjust the weight and feel until I got it perfect.

[Agent 87]

I get what fitters are doing with head first, but they have to start somewhere. What I'm getting at is that the head selection is made with a shaft in the club. Given that how can one be sure that the first shaft isnt influencing characteristics that fitters are attributing as head specific. Remember the old ball flight rules?With that in mind I wonder if it's a chicken and egg thing. 

[Movaltl]

On 10/13/2021 at 8:50 AM, Hook DeLoft said:

I recently tried removing the weight from the back of my G425 Max. I’m a slower swinger and have the stock Alta senior flex shaft. After removing the weight, I was averaging about 20 yards longer off the tee, but was hitting a lot more wild shots, including a huge slice. I have never been a slicer. My right miss has always been a big push. Without the weight, the right miss started right and then curved WAY right like Bubba Watson having fun seeing how far he can curve it. 

I am now thinking I will leave the weight out and slowly add lead tape until I find a happy medium and order the weight that is closest to the weight of the lead tape that works best. 

Light weight equals speed. The trick is controlling it. 

Do you happen to have any idea what the swingweight change was?

Thanks!

[Shapotomous]

I did some experimenting with head weights on the G410+ with an aftermarket Accra shaft last winter.  Bought a few weights off the bay and here are the swingweights for each in my experiment.  It came with the 14g weight and I ended up with a 6g and 3.5g in the toe and center slots. 

3.5g - C7

6g - C9

(2) 3.5g;s - D0

6g + 3.5g - D2

6g _(2)3.5g - D4

14g - D5.5

 

[Hook DeLoft]

On 11/1/2021 at 6:31 PM, Movaltl said:

Do you happen to have any idea what the swingweight change was?

Thanks!

I went by my local golf shop today and had him measure the swing weight.  Without a weight, it is B7.  The stock weight is 26 grams.  I ordered a 14 gram weight and with it, the swing weight is C6, so still very low.  Unfortunately, I have misplaced the original weight, so I don't know what the original swing weight was.  You may be able to find out by sending Ping a question.  I have the Alta 65 shaft in senior flex and standard length.

Edit:  Oops.  Make that the Alta 55 shaft in senior flex.

[RoverRick]

On 10/12/2021 at 9:57 PM, RoverRick said:

 

Could I get the same performance out of the PING?
 

 

 

So it’s been 3 months since I posted this and started the experiment. I thought I would post my final thoughts on this subject. I bought the shaft, and 2 different weights. So to answer my own question, could I get the same performance out of the Ping? 

I came pretty close to it, however, as this experiment was going on, I was also recovering physically and making some swing changes. I had knee surgery last December and it took until early August to get to where I could play 18 holes with out developing a severe limp. I ended up combine elements of the Single Plane Swing with the open stance of Eureka Golf. The changed my ball flight from a draw to a high fade and I hit up 5 to 6 degrees on the ball. At the time of the TM fitting the fitter told me I was hitting down a half of degree. I’m able to take what I would have considered a 3/4 back swing now, and carry the ball 50 yards further than before. The Ping was 10.5 degrees and I ultimately swapped it for a SIM2 Max 9 degrees and have had it turned down 2 degrees. 

So while I did not increase my swing speed drastically, I did greatly improve my launch conditions. I have begun to increase my swing speed but the major change has been the launch conditions. Neither 10.5 would be good for me now, but this was a fun experiment and reinforces the “get properly fit for your clubs” mantra. 

I had a putter fitting last week, and Monday that putter arrives. I have new irons, and hybrids and last year new higher lofted fairway metals. I plan on posting a new What’s in the bag thread and why I choose what I did.