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How would you play this hole?


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On 10/20/2021 at 9:59 AM, RickyBobby_PR said:

May be in the wrong forum but could be considered mental game.

Dlow’s post in random thread reminded me of this hole. The course is Blue Mash which is a sister course of @Golfspy_CG2 old hole course Waverly Woods.

The front and back nine play complexity different and the back nine is usually pretty windy compared to the front. It also has shorter holes.

The first 3 holes play long from both white and blue tee boxes. This is hole 3. A par 4 and per scorecard white tees are 426 and blue 453. Red are 359 and green just slightly behind them. The course has a combo tee option and this one plays from the whites of using that option. The black circle is roughly where the 150 marker is. Tees are usually in the middle box where the tree on the left is. When I play there whites are anywhere from 400-430. Many times it’s into the wind which adds distance and difficulty.

What strategy would you use to play this hole?

For me I play a fade off the left side of the fairway to try and avoid the bunkers. My typical drive is short of the cart path that splits the fairway to about 20 yards behind it. Usually have anywhere from a 5i to my 4/5 wood depending on what bag setup I have into the green. It’s a hole that I don’t par often and play it to make no worse than bogey.

Edit: #1 hdcp hole. The green is surrounded by a hill on the back and sides with thick rough.

594284E1-3B48-4192-8ADF-50B4737287A4.jpeg

Interesting hole.  It looks like a double fairway.  I've seen double greens and double tees, but never a double fairway.   I would take out a driver and blast it to the right.  It looks like the best approach shot is from the adjoining fairway on the right side.  There's no bunkers to go over, no trees, nothing but green.  Assuming there's no internal out of bounds, it looks like that's the best way.

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26 minutes ago, Tom S said:

Interesting hole.  It looks like a double fairway.  I've seen double greens and double tees, but never a double fairway.   I would take out a driver and blast it to the right.  It looks like the best approach shot is from the adjoining fairway on the right side.  There's no bunkers to go over, no trees, nothing but green.  Assuming there's no internal out of bounds, it looks like that's the best way.

The fairways on left is for hole 2 and the one on the right is for hole 5

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3 hours ago, THEZIPR23 said:

This hole looks like an architects attempt to pull you into the water. It looks like there is roughly 70 yards from the green dot to the cart path. If that is the case the water shouldn't be in play off the tee. Also 2nd shot looks like hit it at the bunkers and make sure you have enough club to carry the water. I can't tell but it looks like there is plenty of room behind and left of the green. 

Back left of green is above the green. So you'd be hitting onto a downslope below you. If you're comfortable chipping, you can definitely do it that way. But if you go too far back, it slopes away into a trench (the light green patch on the snapshot). 

And going left definitely is the safer/smarter play, but it makes the hole longer, puts the ball on more slope the further left you go, and brings the bunkers into play if you don't have a club you're consistent hitting over 225 with on a slope. 

I am a shorter hitter so I work around and take the par. But for longer hitters, there are plenty of benefits to keeping the ball as right as possible. 

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  • 4 weeks later...

At the Houston Open they set the tees on the 17th at 301 yards.  Some players went for it and others (Matthew Wolf) teed off with a pitching wedge.  It made for some good entertainment. https://golf.com/news/how-quirky-houston-open-par-4-star-teed-off-wedge/

Most of us mortals would just hit out into the fairway, so it doesn't make a great hole for this thread.  But I thought I'd post it anyway.

 

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I’ve got one, Par 3 version. Number 14 at Ballantrae in Birmingham. BF24A036-E334-440B-90BD-D6EA2CC3D70A.png.0041f4e3e0040a13361a61a0509021c6.pngPar 3 220 yards, water all down the right and bunker on the left. Obvious answer is to play left but the problem is if you are in the bunker, the green slopes down towards the water so it is hard to stop the ball out of the sand. 
 

I tend to try and play it short to give a decent shot at up and down, but still a tough hole. 

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Since I cannot get there in 2 shots I would hit my 3 wood with a slight fade down the left center of the fairway.  I would then, depending on the pin placement, hit either my 2 hybrid or 4 iron to lay up to an appropriate position where I would have a good angle to pitch or chip into the flag.  Most of the time I would be able to get it from 80 yards in to about 6-10 ft and try and 1 putt for the birdie.  This would ensure a easy Par on the hole.

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This one is a little more "cut and dry" than the others, but I've never had the guts to go for it with driver. Curious to see what people would do here:

No. 15, Diamond Springs Golf Course

Par 4, tee locations marked. 245 yards to carry the ravine/hazard to front of green from whites, about 270-275 from blue. There's a decent backstop to the green so you can drive and stop it. 

There's all kinds of bail out room in the fairway, but there's a huge ridge that runs the length of the fairway and funnels balls left or right. Balls hit left of the ridge have a completely blind shot into the green with no view of anything. They often put the pin on the left most part of the green, too, so the chance of stopping the ball close to the hole is next to nothing.

no15.jpg.767b42faaa1f370cee2c440d2d476da7.jpg

The Fried Egg has a good drone shot of this hole:

15-high-front-copy.jpg.35239520796c1414604d0278a76eb977.jpg

Me personally, the last three times I've played here I've laid up well short (something like a six iron, I think), from both white and blue tees. Twice I stayed right of the ridge and had a good look at the pin with a wedge but ball below my feet. One other time I was left of the ridge and had no view of the green at all. I hit a decent pitch but still didn't come close to the hole as it rolled down the backstop and well out onto the green.

Last time I played with @ncwoz he hooked his first drive out of bounds, but landed his second drive from the blue tees past the green onto the backstop and it trickled down onto the green perfectly. Still one of the best shots I've ever seen in person, and it ended up with him halving the hole with me with bogey.

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Difficult holes often play simpler by swallowing your pride, hit a 3i or a hybrid off the tee, lay up to 50-100 yards, then stick your approach for a makeable putt.   The whole point of the  design is to play on your desire for a GIR (and possible 3 putt) rather than developing a strategic plan for par.   Think first, then hit.  

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1 minute ago, bwgerho said:

Difficult holes often play simpler by swallowing your pride, hit a 3i or a hybrid off the tee, lay up to 50-100 yards, then stick your approach for a makeable putt.   The whole point of the  design is to play on your desire for a GIR (and possible 3 putt) rather than developing a strategic plan for par.   Think first, then hit.  

While this is an approach that seems to make sense it is being proven as not the ideal way to play.   As long as the player can make reasonable decent contact  it has been found that:

  • statistically players don’t hit more fairways with 3i or hybrid and it simply just leaves a significantly longer approach.
  • laying up to a preferred distance usually creates a pattern that is 20 yards from front to back. Meaning targeting a 100 yard spot will probably leave you somewhere between 90-110 yard approach
  • even from 50-100 yards you aren’t going to stick you approach very often and still 2 putt the hole.  Proximity to the hole is better the closer you are to the hole.

There is no strategy that will guarantee a score. Playing conservative may get you a  birdie or par and aggressive may result in a bogey or worse but if looked at over a long period of time, the strategy you describe will end up with a higher scoring average.  
 

I will again caveat the above by saying if you struggle with driver and will likely end up in a penalty situation, play something else off the tee.  The scoring loss for distance makes up for taking penalty strokes.  If you have serious short game issues and chunk/blade lots of shots, then it might be wise to leave a longer shot.  

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17 hours ago, Ben_Howell34 said:

I’ve got one, Par 3 version. Number 14 at Ballantrae in Birmingham. BF24A036-E334-440B-90BD-D6EA2CC3D70A.png.0041f4e3e0040a13361a61a0509021c6.pngPar 3 220 yards, water all down the right and bunker on the left. Obvious answer is to play left but the problem is if you are in the bunker, the green slopes down towards the water so it is hard to stop the ball out of the sand. 
 

I tend to try and play it short to give a decent shot at up and down, but still a tough hole. 

I think I would just write down 5 and play the 15th hole. 

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1 hour ago, bwgerho said:

Difficult holes often play simpler by swallowing your pride, hit a 3i or a hybrid off the tee, lay up to 50-100 yards, then stick your approach for a makeable putt.   The whole point of the  design is to play on your desire for a GIR (and possible 3 putt) rather than developing a strategic plan for par.   Think first, then hit.  

What is a makeable putt distance? I have made 80 footers and missed 2 footers.

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17 hours ago, Ben_Howell34 said:

I’ve got one, Par 3 version. Number 14 at Ballantrae in Birmingham. BF24A036-E334-440B-90BD-D6EA2CC3D70A.png.0041f4e3e0040a13361a61a0509021c6.pngPar 3 220 yards, water all down the right and bunker on the left. Obvious answer is to play left but the problem is if you are in the bunker, the green slopes down towards the water so it is hard to stop the ball out of the sand. 
 

I tend to try and play it short to give a decent shot at up and down, but still a tough hole. 

Just a tough hole.   First impression is send it toward the bunker.  But, As you mentioned bunker may not be a good option if you struggle out of the sand due to the slope toward the water.  If that’s the case I’m playing the club that won’t reach the bunker and ends up short or just on the front of the green.  Walk off happy with par and accept 4 as my most likely score.  Goal is really to avoid double.  

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13 hours ago, edingc said:

This one is a little more "cut and dry" than the others, but I've never had the guts to go for it with driver. Curious to see what people would do here:

No. 15, Diamond Springs Golf Course

Par 4, tee locations marked. 245 yards to carry the ravine/hazard to front of green from whites, about 270-275 from blue. There's a decent backstop to the green so you can drive and stop it. 

There's all kinds of bail out room in the fairway, but there's a huge ridge that runs the length of the fairway and funnels balls left or right. Balls hit left of the ridge have a completely blind shot into the green with no view of anything. They often put the pin on the left most part of the green, too, so the chance of stopping the ball close to the hole is next to nothing.

no15.jpg.767b42faaa1f370cee2c440d2d476da7.jpg

The Fried Egg has a good drone shot of this hole:

15-high-front-copy.jpg.35239520796c1414604d0278a76eb977.jpg

Me personally, the last three times I've played here I've laid up well short (something like a six iron, I think), from both white and blue tees. Twice I stayed right of the ridge and had a good look at the pin with a wedge but ball below my feet. One other time I was left of the ridge and had no view of the green at all. I hit a decent pitch but still didn't come close to the hole as it rolled down the backstop and well out onto the green.

Last time I played with @ncwoz he hooked his first drive out of bounds, but landed his second drive from the blue tees past the green onto the backstop and it trickled down onto the green perfectly. Still one of the best shots I've ever seen in person, and it ended up with him halving the hole with me with bogey.

It's an easy enough decision if you have a 50/50 chance of going into the hazard/OB whether you're using driver or 6 iron like me;)

If there was a little more room short of the green it'd be a no brainer for me, but there's almost no room for a mishit to come up short at all. It's one of the things I love about Devries designed courses tho, because as you look at your shorter club options there's really nothing that stands out to me as the obvious choice. Like @edingc said, if you lay up there's still a good chance you're left with a really tricky approach, and if you're like me the layup is still intimidating enough that I nervely hooked it OB. On top of it all, it's absolutely beautiful when the sun is going down at your back.

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On 11/18/2021 at 10:44 AM, THEZIPR23 said:

I think I would just write down 5 and play the 15th hole. 

Funny thing is rest of the course is moderate to easy difficulty. But this hole is a beast.

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I recently started mapping my home course and realized, several things:

a) This course must have been designed with driver distances topping out at 250. Some of these angles are rough.

b) my fairways are narrow

b) tree are placed in such spots, Driver always isn't feasible.

c) The holes below, technically you should never take driver. Curious on everyone's opinion

Hole 10 Meriwether National. Par 4, 375 yards. This 60 yard triangle at 235 yards. My driver carry is 265 now a days. Tight fairway with a tree overhanging the inner part of the dog leg. 235 gets me there with a 3H off the tee.

image.png.bcde5ae327f21f379019e3e82ee5de30.png

 

Hole 11 Meriwether National . Par 4, 428 Yards. 260 yard triangle with 60 yard landing area. Part of the triangle overlaps with a small stream that is mostly dry but a red stake hazard. In the winter this may be a driver hole, but in summer its Super Hybrid or 3H due to roll.

image.png.025f60cb2b50be66a8e05d3567ac7009.png

 

Hale 13 Meriwether National. Par 5 523 Yards. 266 yard, 60 wide triangle. I always pull driver here and wonder why i end up where i do because i usually aim between the tree line. Driver is a stretch to get over the trees on the corner. Unless you can play a cut all the time and aim between the tree lines, Driver should almost be null IMO.

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13 minutes ago, rbsiedsc said:

I recently started mapping my home course and realized, several things:

a) This course must have been designed with driver distances topping out at 250. Some of these angles are rough.

b) my fairways are narrow

b) tree are placed in such spots, Driver always isn't feasible.

c) The holes below, technically you should never take driver. Curious on everyone's opinion

 

Hole 11 Meriwether National . Par 4, 428 Yards. 260 yard triangle with 60 yard landing area. Part of the triangle overlaps with a small stream that is mostly dry but a red stake hazard. In the winter this may be a driver hole, but in summer its Super Hybrid or 3H due to roll.

 

 

You logic seems reasonable and it does appear that driver is a tough okay with your distance.  My only comments are while the fairways are narrow and there are a lot of trees, are you blocked out by trees if you miss the fairway?  My only question on 11 would be can you shift the cone left to not be in the the hazard?  Being shorter leads to a long approach but it may just be one of those take par if you can but be happy with bogey.  

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Golf is not just pull driver on every par 4 or 5... well, it is for me!  🤣  But some holes require planning and sometimes it's not driver-wedge.  The architect likely designed some holes to be played with longer approaches unless the player is willing to take on extra risk.  The USGA uses 250y for an average scratch male golfer and 200y for an average bogey male golfer.  If you are above the average, then there can be more risk, unless of course you can fly all the trouble!!

Look how many pros take less than driver on 450+ holes.  Each player has to determine the maximum distance they want drive the ball to have a reasonable shot into the green without getting into too much trouble.  As for par 5 holes, the architect is probably looking for players to shape their shots or play it as a 3-shot hole.  There are always choices to make... make it a good one.

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23 minutes ago, cnosil said:

You logic seems reasonable and it does appear that driver is a tough okay with your distance.  My only comments are while the fairways are narrow and there are a lot of trees, are you blocked out by trees if you miss the fairway?  My only question on 11 would be can you shift the cone left to not be in the the hazard?  Being shorter leads to a long approach but it may just be one of those take par if you can but be happy with bogey.  

So not seen on 11, too far left and you have to carry over ten foot bushes unless they cut them for the winter. Ya it’s an expectation management exercise to try to play for par and accept a bogey. 

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41 minutes ago, rbsiedsc said:

I recently started mapping my home course and realized, several things:

a) This course must have been designed with driver distances topping out at 250. Some of these angles are rough.

Are these all from the back tees? 

b) my fairways are narrow

Distance between hazards is the criteria for tee shots. Fairway vs. rough could be penal, or not much. 

b) tree are placed in such spots, Driver always isn't feasible.

c) The holes below, technically you should never take driver. Curious on everyone's opinion

- a single row of trees doesn't exclude driver unless it results in a recovery situation or lost ball the majority of time. Giving up 30-50 yards with hybrid is likely 0.4-0.8 SG at your handicap. If you are punching out less than 50% of the time you likely come out ahead (assuming no lost balls). 

Hole 10 Meriwether National. Par 4, 375 yards. This 60 yard triangle at 235 yards. My driver carry is 265 now a days. Tight fairway with a tree overhanging the inner part of the dog leg. 235 gets me there with a 3H off the tee.

- you can experiment with cutting the corner or hitting through the dog leg as playing from the next fairway should be feasible with a lofted club unless the trees are over 60' tall. 

image.png.bcde5ae327f21f379019e3e82ee5de30.png

 

Hole 11 Meriwether National . Par 4, 428 Yards. 260 yard triangle with 60 yard landing area. Part of the triangle overlaps with a small stream that is mostly dry but a red stake hazard. In the winter this may be a driver hole, but in summer its Super Hybrid or 3H due to roll.

Aim left as @cnosil said or play club that takes hazard out of play. OR go full Bryson and aim at the cart path on extreme right between tee boxes and green 🙃 Lots of good outcomes over there LOL, get 20 extra yards off cart path, free drop from the green, good lie on a tee box. 

image.png.025f60cb2b50be66a8e05d3567ac7009.png

 

Hale 13 Meriwether National. Par 5 523 Yards. 266 yard, 60 wide triangle. I always pull driver here and wonder why i end up where i do because i usually aim between the tree line. Driver is a stretch to get over the trees on the corner. Unless you can play a cut all the time and aim between the tree lines, Driver should almost be null IMO.

- If you can't cut corner then you are advancing as far as possible up the dog leg. Ideally, to the gap between trees on left to eliminate the risk of being blocked out. 

image.png.aee49183d81cbcd75a21d4b087a3120d.png

 

 

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@BMart519

These are in between back and next tees up. Only 10 yrds really between them.

Thanks for the feed back otherwise and thank you everyone for your opinions. I need to do a better job of doing the prep work ahead of time to really plan my strategy better.

 

 

 

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  • 8 months later...

Reviving this thread. How would you play these two holes. 
 

hole 1 forest hills golf course


This is 278 yards out. 70 yard wide. Would you drop down a club? The hole starts to go down hill about 70-90 yards from the green so laying back isn't terrible.

image.png.d3b353b34966824c0594537002104865.png

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Hole 5 forest hills golf course. Long dog leg par 4. I usually play driver but realize i can over shoot the fairway and go into more trees or if i pull it hit a grove of trees which then goes down hill to the next hole (I am talking about the hole on the left in this image. I could layup with a 3 wood but would leave a longer approach to an elevated green. Again 280 line 65-70 yard wide

 

image.png.743be23bc37aedb3440c07017638fce7.png

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2 hours ago, Vegan_Golfer_PNW said:

Hole 1 forest hills golf course


This is 278 yards out. 70 yard wide. Would you drop down a club? The hole starts to go down hill about 70-90 yards from the green so laying back isn't terrible.

 

image.png.d3b353b34966824c0594537002104865.png

Either a chippy driver or a 2 hybrid for me, trying to get it chasing down the hill up near the green. Looks like long of the green could be trouble, but that 278 line you've drawn looks like the most open spot on the hole! Begging for the boom stick;)

2 hours ago, Vegan_Golfer_PNW said:

Hole 5 forest hills golf course. Long dog leg par 4. I usually play driver but realize i can over shoot the fairway and go into more trees or if i pull it hit a grove of trees which then goes down hill to the next hole (I am talking about the hole on the left in this image. I could layup with a 3 wood but would leave a longer approach to an elevated green. Again 280 line 65-70 yard wide

 

 

image.png.743be23bc37aedb3440c07017638fce7.png

Depending on the yardage I'd be leaving in, it'd most likely be driver for me here as well. My fade suits the hole (if it doglegged left it's not likely less than driver), and if it's only a couple alone-ish trees I'm usually rolling the dice and taking my chances. Cutting the corner off doglegs if it works out is the best haha 

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36 minutes ago, ncwoz said:

Either a chippy driver or a 2 hybrid for me, trying to get it chasing down the hill up near the green. Looks like long of the green could be trouble, but that 278 line you've drawn looks like the most open spot on the hole! Begging for the boom stick;)

Depending on the yardage I'd be leaving in, it'd most likely be driver for me here as well. My fade suits the hole (if it doglegged left it's not likely less than driver), and if it's only a couple alone-ish trees I'm usually rolling the dice and taking my chances. Cutting the corner off doglegs if it works out is the best haha 

Thanks. Ya hole one has water behind it. Green is kind of large and slopes back to front so would be going up the slope on a drive. 
 

I go back and forth so much. The trees are somewhat tall on the dogleg left so cutting the corner is a challenge but could be done. Problem comes with a low strike and into the trees and down the hill it goes with no good rescue option. True risk-reward

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10 hours ago, Vegan_Golfer_PNW said:

Reviving this thread. How would you play these two holes. 
 

hole 1 forest hills golf course


This is 278 yards out. 70 yard wide. Would you drop down a club? The hole starts to go down hill about 70-90 yards from the green so laying back isn't terrible.

 

image.png.d3b353b34966824c0594537002104865.png

I would probably lay up, 4H to about 210 wedge in, how big is the green? Not very deep that’s for sure. Other play depending on the day is attack the green with the 3wood.

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10 hours ago, Vegan_Golfer_PNW said:

Hole 5 forest hills golf course. Long dog leg par 4. I usually play driver but realize i can over shoot the fairway and go into more trees or if i pull it hit a grove of trees which then goes down hill to the next hole (I am talking about the hole on the left in this image. I could layup with a 3 wood but would leave a longer approach to an elevated green. Again 280 line 65-70 yard wide

 

 

image.png.743be23bc37aedb3440c07017638fce7.png

Ditto on this I would be going driver like @ncwozsaid, my fade tendency would work well.

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11 hours ago, Vegan_Golfer_PNW said:

 

hole 1 forest hills golf course


This is 278 yards out. 70 yard wide. Would you drop down a club? The hole starts to go down hill about 70-90 yards from the green so laying back isn't terrible.

 

looks like a short hole hole that would allow you to back off a club if you are more comfortable as you would still have wedge into the green.  You didn’t say how steep the downhill is, but a downhill shot might be something to avoid if you struggle there.trees on the left and right don’t seem very penal.  I’d probably go driver.   
 

 

11 hours ago, Vegan_Golfer_PNW said:

Hole 5 forest hills golf course. Long dog leg par 4. I usually play driver but realize i can over shoot the fairway and go into more trees or if i pull it hit a grove of trees which then goes down hill to the next hole (I am talking about the hole on the left in this image. I could layup with a 3 wood but would leave a longer approach to an elevated green. Again 280 line 65-70 yard wide

Based on the fact that I follow DECADE principles, driver all day.  
 

 

 

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