Should Fittings be Free?

[cnosil]

41 minutes ago, bens197 said:

That didn't mean you get the demo for free, you're still paying for it, just at a reduced price.

Shop is still committed to the cost of demo as well as retail product.

This entire idea of free, especially in the golf business is terrible.  

this could and maybe should change?  If manufacturers want to sell more product providing a free demo equipment to shops could be a way to do this.  Obviously lots of other aspects occur like sales incentives from brands and making sales associates staff to create bias.  
 

if we were to change the industry, shops would have access to product.  they would also have access to or staff that were good at the fitting process  and could actually help the customer with product selection and show why a particular club wa s better than another.  Help educate the consumer!  
 

the point of the podcast wasn’t to look at today’s strategy, but what should really be happening in the industry.  There is definitely room in the marketplace. and benefit to both free and paid fittings options.  As said places like CC, TrueSoec, Cool Clubs, TXG would still do higher end more robust fittings and cater to the small percent of the dedicated golfer market and get paid for that in depth service. 
 

 

[Headhammer]

13 hours ago, jtgavigan said:

Another point i have is that there are only so many people out there who are even interested in becoming a competent fitter and there are only so many hours in the day to fit people. You will only sell so much more. 

This is really the key issue isn't it? Most people seem to be okay paying for a fitting from a top fitter, but becoming one takes a lot of study and years of experience, not a lot of people want to invest that time & money to go work for low wages and retail hours. Now offering free fittings at all these expanded locations means you are just diluting the talent pool even further.

[bens197]

45 minutes ago, cnosil said:

this could and maybe should change?  If manufacturers want to sell more product providing a free demo equipment to shops could be a way to do this.  Obviously lots of other aspects occur like sales incentives from brands and making sales associates staff to create bias.  
 

if we were to change the industry, shops would have access to product.  they would also have access to or staff that were good at the fitting process  and could actually help the customer with product selection and show why a particular club wa s better than another.  Help educate the consumer!  
 

the point of the podcast wasn’t to look at today’s strategy, but what should really be happening in the industry.  There is definitely room in the marketplace. and benefit to both free and paid fittings options.  As said places like CC, TrueSoec, Cool Clubs, TXG would still do higher end more robust fittings and cater to the small percent of the dedicated golfer market and get paid for that in depth service. 
 

 

I understand the goal, I disagree with the premise.  The "for free" just stings because I lived through it.

After working in golf for a dozen years (a member of the PGA in my final 3) I took a burn to them (PGA of America) pushing free lessons while making a paltry wage.  Lesson revenue was a big part of making ends meet and an organization volun-telling us to give free lessons while offering us no true benefits was terrible.

Giving away the technology and skills that set certain retailers apart is bad form because it places the entire acquisition and maintenance costs on that shop.  If one of the large Mfg's were paying to outfit shops with launch monitors, maintaining them and paying to train employees, I would be a little more inclined to listen but we know that wont happen.

[RickyBobby_PR]

58 minutes ago, cnosil said:

this could and maybe should change?  If manufacturers want to sell more product providing a free demo equipment to shops could be a way to do this.  Obviously lots of other aspects occur like sales incentives from brands and making sales associates staff to create bias.  
 

if we were to change the industry, shops would have access to product.  they would also have access to or staff that were good at the fitting process  and could actually help the customer with product selection and show why a particular club wa s better than another.  Help educate the consumer!  
 

the point of the podcast wasn’t to look at today’s strategy, but what should really be happening in the industry.  There is definitely room in the marketplace. and benefit to both free and paid fittings options.  As said places like CC, TrueSoec, Cool Clubs, TXG would still do higher end more robust fittings and cater to the small percent of the dedicated golfer market and get paid for that in depth service. 
 

 

Are the brands going to eat the cost for the equipment they are providing to all the retail shops? Both the shaft and club companies would need to eat that cost.
 

many people talk about wanting more grip size options in fitting carts because they typically only have standard grip size. Other want more loft and lie options with fitting heads to get a better fit and know what to expect if ordering something that is different from what they tried. 

We know that anyone in business is looking to make a profit so that cost is going to be passed on to the consumer in increased pricing of the clubs, potentially less free upcharge options in shafts. 
 

Nothing is free and the they money has to come from somewhere. Other have touched on the the dilution of competent fitters if they are all going to work for free. 

 

[cnosil]

14 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Are the brands going to eat the cost for the equipment they are providing to all the retail shops? Both the shaft and club companies would need to eat that cost.
 

many people talk about wanting more grip size options in fitting carts because they typically only have standard grip size. Other want more loft and lie options with fitting heads to get a better fit and know what to expect if ordering something that is different from what they tried. 

We know that anyone in business is looking to make a profit so that cost is going to be passed on to the consumer in increased pricing of the clubs, potentially less free upcharge options in shafts. 
 

Nothing is free and the they money has to come from somewhere. Other have touched on the the dilution of competent fitters if they are all going to work for free. 

 

Your points are valid in today’s consumer marketplace.  Is it possible to change the model to do something better for the consumer and grow the game of golf?  

[MGoBlue100]

On 11/2/2021 at 3:41 PM, jlukes said:

Love MGS, but it’s foolish and irresponsible to make a blanket statement that all club fittings should be free 

I made it through less than half of the podcast before I had to shut it off. 
 

Kudos to Ryan for trying to explain his point thoughtfully. I wish I could say the same for the MGS side of things 

And a big eye roll to the Free Fitting T-shirt tweet sent out.  Not a good look 

I have not yet listened to the podcast (I will do that) but my initial thought when I saw the headline was "You pay people to do something you can't (or don't want to) do yourself".  If there is a discount offered after the fact if you buy product, then the fitting wasn't "free'.  It's similar to the "No gas, no squeegee" commercial circulating right now.  Why should someone give away their accumulated knowledge for nothing?

[MaxEntropy]

I have not listened to Adam's arguments, but based on the responses, I think I get the gist. Like many, I don't agree that fittings should be free, but I suppose it depends on what you mean by "fitting". Should someone be able to walk into a GG or Dick's, hit a few balls under the supervision of staff and learn some basic specs free of charge? Sure. Assuming these are your typical off-the-rack buyers, why not help them make a more-informed decision? A "real" fitting? I don't see how that can be done for free without the cost associated with the time and people being passed on in some other way (like higher club prices).

[RickyBobby_PR]

53 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Your points are valid in today’s consumer marketplace.  Is it possible to change the model to do something better for the consumer and grow the game of golf?  

Not for free. The consumer is always going to pay for things in some manner because businesses aren’t going to sacrifice profit especially where profit margins are low. Between rising labor costs for low skilled workers and the ever increasing price for consumer goods the consumer will cover the additional costs.

Even with places currently offering to apply the price of a fitting there’s isn’t a large number of golfers getting fit. 

As mentioned by others how do you convince people to give up their free time especially those with families and other commitments to do free fittings? 
 

I used to do demo days for Srixon/Cleveland for 4 years and even more just helping at demo days at my local range to help the fitter there do what he needed to do for normal business while demo days were going on. I had to stop because there isn’t enough time in a day for all the things I have set as properties.

[ChitownM2]

45 minutes ago, cnosil said:

..... Is it possible to change the model to do something better for the consumer and grow the game of golf?  

I think that is really where Adam was going with things.  In my opinion, he was talking about what would be the best way to do things for the consumer, not necessarily what would be practical or could be implemented in the short term.  From the perspective of "if we had a perfect golf industry scenario", then I agree with what he says and what he is saying may be possible.  Unfortunately, we don't live in that world.

That said, TXG was also not a very good representative to have this argument with.  I believe they are an outlier in that they are at the very end of the spectrum as far as having some of the best fitters out there and they have a huge multi month wait list to even get in to see them.  There are very few club fitters who check off both of those boxes as is demonstrated by the numerous threads about bad fittings at CC, Truespec, etc.  TXG will probably always exist because they provide a service that almost no one else can match.  Excluding them from the conversation, I could certainly envision a scenario where getting competent fittings at a big retail store could put the local franchise of CC or similar which may be an average fitter at best out of business.  The analogy that comes to mind is TXG is a Rolls Royce where as CC and it's competitors might be a Mercedes and PGASS is a Kia from the 90s.  If you could get retail to be a Volvo, then I think that middle ground of fittings wouldn't need or be able to exist.

[VtheGNMan]

 Isn't there always a big difference between what is good for the consumer and what is good for the seller?

If all things were equal, a consumer would always choose free as his 1st choice.    Conversely, the seller always wants to sell the product and service for the most possible. 

Oh if only time were unlimited and the actual person (Joe Fitter) could just fill his day with more sessions than he might earn what he is worth.   Want to make more?  Do more fittings.  Is that what we are trying to tell them?  No wonder they are hard to come by.   That's like telling a car salesman on a low commission structure: "oh if you want to make more, all you do is have to sell more". 

The business model of TXG is different than the business model of Joe Fitter trying to make a living and feed his family.  For TXG to make more money they need to do more fittings per day/hour/week/month whether they charge upfront for their fittings or not.   But how does Joe Fitter make more? How do free fittings benefit him?  How does not paying Joe Fitter what he is worth benefit the golf industry in the long run?  All the great Joe Fitters go and find better paying jobs and golf becomes a hobby, now there are no great fitters around.  

My parents taught me to value others time and don't expect anything for free.  

[dlow206]

I, only speaking for myself, don't expect a service to be free when its a service that I seek out and that service includes someone taking an hour or two to consult/advise based on data captured and observations about me. I believe that the market should allow for (which it does) varying levels of service available to consumers, and that the consumers can choose which service they would like based on their own willingness to pay and the value they personally feel they will get from the service. 

I guess my one issue is that there are some (not all) high end fitters that provide a paid fitting service, but are also heavily influenced by the bonuses that may be offered for selling a particular brand of clubs/shafts. 

Just about everytime someone in my local area says they got fit at the local "xyz" fitting establishment, the first thing I ask is, are those Oban shafts? And 90% of the time the answer is yes. Is it coincidental that these people all fit best into Obans or is it that the Obans are the highest priced steel shaft offered by this establishment?

[fixyurdivot]

20 hours ago, DiscipleofPenick said:

I think fittings should be free, or at least highly discounted (>50%) IF the person buys a club. If I'm dropping $500+ on a Driver, or $1200+ on irons, that should save me roughly whatever a fitting will cost. FWIW the one fitting I've done was discounted almost to nothing because I bought the recommended driver that day. There are good places out here that already do this.

My first ever iron fitting offered to deduct the cost of the fitting from a set of clubs if ordered within 30 days of the fitting.  I used that on my G410's. I think a number of club fitters/builders offer something similar. That said, I'm also fine with them getting paid to perform the service.  If they are competent at what they are doing, ultimately getting us into the very short list of what will perform best, I think their fees are actually money saved and aggravation avoided.  This, like so many things, follows the "you get what you paid for" argument. 

[cnosil]

1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Not for free. The consumer is always going to pay for things in some manner because businesses aren’t going to sacrifice profit especially where profit margins are low. Between rising labor costs for low skilled workers and the ever increasing price for consumer goods the consumer will cover the additional costs.. 

You are correct,  but a could part of what Adam was saying be accomplished?  Think longer term, bigger picture and not what you see in front of you today.  Be a visionary.  Most new things are met with disagreement and statements that it won’t work  probably won’t work,  but I think how fittings work maybe need to change.  Everyday you read comments on the forum about people complaining about fittings and how their equipment isn’t right.  How would you go about fixing that for the person that doesn’t want to pay for a fitting?   Should people be forced to continuously buy equipment which contributes to the thought that golf is too expensive.   Adam is a disruptor and doing things to try and change industry.  If you don’t believe the consumer deserves better that is fine and your opinion.  Under you model, the crap fittings provided by brick and mortar shops is justified by the you get what you paid for.   I personally think the uneducated golfer deserves better 

 

1 hour ago, ChitownM2 said:

I think that is really where Adam was going with things. 
 

Yep.   Is what Adam was proposing something that wail happen in the next 3-5 years?  Probably not.  Probably not in the next 10-15 either.  To accomplish what Adam was proposing probably will never happen industry wide but it does happen in small pockets of the golfing community.  Unfortunately people are viewing the Twitter posts and the podcast as an attack on the fitting industry and not as it was intended.  
 

TXG was included because of there response that fittings should never be free.   As we are reading in these posts this is what most people believe because of normal business models where time isn’t free, equipment isn’t free, people want the cheapest option, and companies die everything to minimize costs and maximize profits.  
 

33 minutes ago, VtheGNMan said:

 Isn't there always a big difference between what is good for the consumer and what is good for the seller?

Definitely;  and isn’t the premise of MGS to educate the consumer.

[benb1989]

Local to me in the UK I think most fittings are free. They certainly are from the major retailers and local pro shops. I know there are a few independent guys who charge. 

When I was fitted for my Driver last year (first fitting I had for around 5 years) I went to a golf club around 45 minutes away which has a huge shop. They charged for the fitting appointment, £40. I was on the range, with the GC quad and the fitter for over an hour and went through everything. I ordered the club through them after the fitting and as a result I had £60 knocked off the price. What I hadn't realised is, if you book and pay for a fitting from these guys, and then purchase the club from them they will knock the cost of the fitting, and a bit extra, off the price you pay for the club. II have attached the advert on the website, the amounts have changed since last year but its still well worth it imo.  

 

[BMart519]

This whole issue is a nothing burger. There are already a full spectrum of fitting offerings from free "Demo Days" to fitters that eliminate or reduce the cost of the fitting if equipment is purchased and all the way up to paid fittings like TXG, etc. If you want the best, you are going to have to pay for it due to limited supply of expert fitters being exceeded by demand. It would be like suggesting that everyone could show up to a Tour event and get fit off the tour trucks. 

They are also aligned with the quality you get... A free fitting is not going to be the level of a paid fitting and likely have less equipment to test. My iron fitter recommended whatever club had the highest rating in Flightscope. When I wanted to save $500 vs the 1st pick, he recommended the iron with the next highest rating. I could have done the same thing hitting balls by myself on a monitor, but at the end it was no cost and I got to demo multiple clubs and shafts on an expensive monitor. 

[DiscipleofPenick]

1 hour ago, fixyurdivot said:

My first ever iron fitting offered to deduct the cost of the fitting from a set of clubs if ordered within 30 days of the fitting.  I used that on my G410's. I think a number of club fitters/builders offer something similar. That said, I'm also fine with them getting paid to perform the service.  If they are competent at what they are doing, ultimately getting us into the very short list of what will perform best, I think their fees are actually money saved and aggravation avoided.  This, like so many things, follows the "you get what you paid for" argument. 

It was something similar with my fitter. I ordered the driver at the fitting, and I think the cost of the fitting went from $100 to $20.

[RickyBobby_PR]

52 minutes ago, cnosil said:

but a could part of what Adam was saying be accomplished?  Think longer term, bigger picture and not what you see in front of you today.  Be a visionary.  Most new things are met with disagreement and statements that it won’t work  probably won’t work,  but I think how fittings work maybe need to change.

No. Things cost money including people’s time. As you mentioned about the bad experiences people have with fitting at CC or how there isn’t a competent fitter near them or that the fitters in their area aren’t that good. So there’s already a lack of competent fitters including in golf retail shops, so how/where do you get more fitters for one? Then how do you compensate them for their time? Who covers the cost of their time and how do they make up that money? Who trains them so that they are competent and who pays for the training? Who pays for the trainers time?  
 

You get a bunch of people somewhat into golf that do free fittings, the results are so so because the fitters don’t know their job and then the consumer sours on the concept of fittings and stops going.

Show me a for profit business that gives away services for free and is still in business. 

[Tom the Golf Nut]

5 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

A certified fitter doesn’t guarantee a good or even ok fitting. The certification means they issued a course given by someone or some brand and nothing more. If they don’t understand the swing they will improperly fit a golfer. I’ve seen it with a titleist tech rep and two separate Ping reps who get trained at hq and learn on the job there, and in the last year plus the people brands are hiring to do demo days you are likely to find a tech rep that’s not that good and some on this forum would run curled around them.

Some of the best fitters I’ve been too have no formal training or certifications. However they understand the golf swing and how to fit to it.  

Maybe I should have been more specific in my wording. "An experienced reputable fitter not just a certified professional". They should be the same but unfortunately they are not. I agree I have had poor fittings at a demo day but I have had excellent fittings as well.   

[cnosil]

35 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Show me a for profit business that gives away services for free and is still in business. 

TXG and golf instructors produce videos and provide information on YouTube and forums to inform and educate golfers on fittings and the golf swing for free.  I have asked questions and gotten responses from those instructors.  They are still in business and provide more in-depth information and fittings for a fee.  
 

go into a golf store and swing clubs and review information on a launch monitor; ever do that for free?  How about a demo day for an OEM golf company. 

[fixyurdivot]

31 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

You get a bunch of people somewhat into golf that do free fittings, the results are so so because the fitters don’t know their job and then the consumer sours on the concept of fittings and stops going.

This is where our forum really paid off for me.  I read plenty of posts about fittings that weren't worth the time/money and those that folks raved about.  It's why I chose True Spec, and the Scottsdale location, to invest my time and money.  It's like the guy who goes into Home Depot, buys a tool belt and a $1000 worth of hand tools, and exit's as a builder... do we want him as a contractor?

[RickyBobby_PR]

21 minutes ago, cnosil said:

TXG and golf instructors produce videos and provide information on YouTube and forums to inform and educate golfers on fittings and the golf swing for free.  I have asked questions and gotten responses from those instructors.  They are still in business and provide more in-depth information and fittings for a fee.  
 

go into a golf store and swing clubs and review information on a launch monitor; ever do that for free?  How about a demo day for an OEM golf company. 

They get paid for their content on YouTube via ad revenue. It may be for free. They may not get any money upfront but as their audience grows so does their revenue and when their revenue grows their production value grows. Many jumped to patreon so that they could increase their revenue and compensation for the work they put into their production and also to cover the costs of it, they also offer better content for the price. 
 

The golf stores can do that because they are making money off all the products they carry outside of the golf clubs. They aren’t giving away their club repair and regripping services for free. They aren’t giving away the golf lessons they offer for free and now many of them are charging to hit balls so you can’t just walk in and use for free.

Since Adam is such a disruptor he should set the example. He has the facitly, equipment and staff to do free fittings, so open it up and have people come in for free fittings. Since you think it’s a possibility why not volunteer your time to make it happen?

You still haven’t answered the questions of who and where anyone will get people to work as fitters? Who is going to train them and pay for that training? How will the ones providing the training be compensated and who is paying for the training? Guarantee anyone who is interested if being a fitter isn’t going to dish out their own money to pay for the training and not be get compensated for their time once training is completed and they are performing their duties?

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

The guy that does fittings at my local range also does lessons. He has a pretty booked schedule almost every day between the two. You tell him to do the fittings for free he’s going to book more lessons and less fittings if any at all. 

[ChitownM2]

1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

No. Things cost money including people’s time. As you mentioned about the bad experiences people have with fitting at CC or how there isn’t a competent fitter near them or that the fitters in their area aren’t that good. So there’s already a lack of competent fitters including in golf retail shops, so how/where do you get more fitters for one? Then how do you compensate them for their time? Who covers the cost of their time and how do they make up that money? Who trains them so that they are competent and who pays for the training? Who pays for the trainers time?  

Although not clearly stated in the podcast, Adam is clearly implying in his model that being a fitter at a store offering these "free" fittings is a salaried position.  Nobody is expecting them to show up and fit people all day for free and then go to some other job to make money to support their family.  The free fittings would then in turn result in enough "extra" business to pay the salary of that employee. I'm not in the industry but I was under the impression that most fitters and pros are in business for themselves such that they only get paid when they are able to sell their services.  I imagine there are at least some fitters out there who wouldn't mind trading that up/down/seasonal income for a steady paycheck every 2 weeks.  

In regards to the subsequent posts, the same people who pay for the training now would be paying in the new system.  Nothing changes about how the fitters learn the trade or how the people who teach them are compensated.  All of that is already happening (or not in some cases).

[null]

Really looking forward to the MGS testing facility opening their doors to the general public so they can come in and get fit for clubs so they can then turn around and go buy their clubs online. I’m sure Adam and the folks running the test facility have the time and resources for all of that. 
 

ya know, because it’s good for the average consumer

 

edit:  just saw @RickyBobby_PR’s post regarding MGS should offer free fittings. great minds

[cnosil]

30 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

They get paid for their content on YouTube via ad revenue. It may be for free. They may not get any money upfront but as their audience grows so does their revenue and when their revenue grows their production value grows. Many jumped to patreon so that they could increase their revenue and compensation for the work they put into their production and also to cover the costs of it, they also offer better content for the price. 
 

The golf stores can do that because they are making money off all the products they carry outside of the golf clubs. They aren’t giving away their club repair and regripping services for free. They aren’t giving away the golf lessons they offer for free and now many of them are charging to hit balls so you can’t just walk in and use for free.

Since Adam is such a disruptor he should set the example. He has the facitly, equipment and staff to do free fittings, so open it up and have people come in for free fittings. Since you think it’s a possibility why not volunteer your time to make it happen?

You still haven’t answered the questions of who and where anyone will get people to work as fitters? Who is going to train them and pay for that training? How will the ones providing the training be compensated and who is paying for the training? Guarantee anyone who is interested if being a fitter isn’t going to dish out their own money to pay for the training and not be get compensated for their time once training is completed and they are performing their duties?

 

So there is a business model where I provide the consumer content for free and companies pay for ads to provide reviewer to the content creators.  As the consumer I still get the information for free and the companies are still in business and making profits. 
 

Adam does TrueGolfFit which will become free again per the podcast.  Part of the data that is used in that system is data from most wanted testing which I volunteer my time to be part of.   So in a way I am helping people get free fittings.  
 

As stated above by others, people will still learn the trade in the same way and get paid by the same people.  The revenue would come from places outside of the basic fitting.   Refer back to the ad revenue on YouTube and coaches posting video tips on online coaching platforms.   Companies pay for commercials on those platforms with the hope of generating revenue.  People give “free” shipping to try and get you business and we know the shipping isn’t “free”.  

[golffun]

I think that fitting should be HONEST....   If someone comes in to get fit and displays an awful golf swinging ability, the fitter should tell them that it's a waste of your money to try to fit a bad golf swing,  It defies logic if they think that a specific club/shaft selection will help fix a bad swing.    Having said that, when you go to a retail golf store,  you're going to get someone that is less proficient at fitting than going to a fitting specialist, but again... honesty should come before sales.  being honest and telling the golfer that they would be much better off investing in lessons before spending the money being fitted and investing thousands in new equipment...  but as usual, this will probably never have a priority in the club business even though it might create a life long customer ..  SAD    

[badgv0h]

Here is an idea!

Have a free fitting and whatever manufacture’s equipment you buy, have them pay for the fitting. With the price of equipment today, they could easily afford it. I realize there would have to be rules around the fitting, so people don’t rush in for a free fitting and never buy equipment. Just food for thought, and I am sure as I indicated, there is a lot more thought to put into a suggestion like this.

 

 

[tony@CIC]

23 hours ago, THEZIPR23 said:

If fittings should be free why do I have to pay for truegolffit??

Spot on I was thinking the same thing before I read your post. However, I am in favor of paying for a real fitting. My independent fitter charges 150 for a full bag, and spends a couple of hours on the fitting, If you buy the clubs, he discounts it down to 75. which I'll gladly pay. He's thorough, listens and makes recommendations based on not only my swing but the trackman data along with my preferences. 

After all, Trackman's aren't free, nor is the building  and the range along with all of those golf balls. Also as an Independent he doesn't get the kind of purchase discount that a GG or PGASS get. FYI, he's generally booked six weeks out so I guess there are plenty of other golfers that feel the way I do. 

 

[woodman]

No.  As a fitter who spends over an hour with EACH customer and does it right, I cannot afford to fit for free.  Should fittings be free if you go to a place like Dick's Sporting Goods and get a "fitter" who knows nothing about fitting? yes, they should be free, because they generally do not do a true fitting, but mostly hand clubs to the customer and tell them to try them

The expression, " You get what you pay for" rings true when it comes to fittings

So...If you want a real fitting, you should expect to pay for it

[flyingwedges]

I did not listen to any talking heads and am responding to the question.  Nothing in this world is free, so if the fitting is 'free' then the cost is in the final purchased product. That said, most of those doing fittings and selling you a finished product, are charging you full retail price, but only providing you the head, and not the shafts you would have received in a retail buy so that you could then sell them to recover some of your outlay.  I've done many builds from the top fitting companies, but I don't have their cost structure to recover, so if I build what they spec for you, you should pay them the fitting fee, and then save money by getting the build elsewhere.