Should Fittings be Free?

[RickyBobby_PR]

40 minutes ago, cnosil said:

I can't argue with you about how businesses are setup today,  in 99% of the situations it just won't work.  Most of us don't have a vision into future business models that could make this work.  As I said before,  people create business models that people say will never work and they end up being successful.   

True but saying that a service should be free and that it will create more business thru sales doesn’t work now. Go to a demo day, watch the number of people that come thru, go thru a fitting and don’t buy. There’s a lot more that hit and don’t buy than there are that buy. Some brands may not even get anyone to come to their event…seen this first hand for several years with Cleveland/srixons, Mizuno and cobra. A few times even titleist would only get a handful in 4 hours.

4 minutes ago, Tongju said:

One other thing that Ryan sort of addressed is the notion that free fittings attract "tire kickers" or people only interested in using the fitting information to find the proper equipment online or elsewhere.  Asking a fitter to "giveaway" their expertise is likely demoralizing, not to mention not good for business.  

As I mention above this is very true. People come thru try a bunch did stuff and just want tit hit balls. The rep gets frustrated. If there’s two people and one shows more interest than the other they will spend more time with that person but that doesn’t always result in a sale. 

[ChitownM2]

45 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

True but saying that a service should be free and that it will create more business thru sales doesn’t work now. Go to a demo day, watch the number of people that come thru, go thru a fitting and don’t buy. There’s a lot more that hit and don’t buy than there are that buy. Some brands may not even get anyone to come to their event…seen this first hand for several years with Cleveland/srixons, Mizuno and cobra. A few times even titleist would only get a handful in 4 hours.

Well demo days are specifically set up for people to come and try clubs and not buy.  Most of the people who attend them are "tire kickers", however I bet that the number of tire kickers would drop dramatically if getting fit at a store was just a normal thing you could walk in and do.  

Sure at first they would get a ton of people coming in to get fit that may not buy anything but once the novelty wore off I don't think you would get a ton of people coming in just for shits and giggles.  They may not buy every time but they wouldn't be coming in with no intention of buying at all like you get at a demo day.

 

Also, where are all of these people leaving fitters to go "find it cheaper" shopping at?  Other than buying counterfeits on eBay or hitting up the used market, what stores are offering worthwhile discounts on current gear?  I know some places will knock off $5 or 10 but am I missing the boat on some online stores that sell new TSi drivers for $450 instead of $550 or a set of ZX5 irons for $900?  Or is it just finding a place online in a different state so you don't have to pay sales tax?

[John Bachman]

I’m was of the mindset that if you get an acceptable fitting and you purchase the clubs from the fitter it should be free or a severely reduced cost, but I’m slowly changing my views. It’s hard to make analogies, but I still pay for an eye exam even if I get my glasses in the place he works from. I just don’t try on a boatload of glasses, I have a professional fit me for whatever I buy. I can see a big box store absorbing the cost if you buy from them because it’s really not that thorough of a fitting from what I’ve read and been told. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

9 minutes ago, ChitownM2 said:

Well demo days are specifically set up for people to come and try clubs and not buy.  Most of the people who attend them are "tire kickers", however I bet that the number of tire kickers would drop dramatically if getting fit at a store was just a normal thing you could walk in and do.  

Sure at first they would get a ton of people coming in to get fit that may not buy anything but once the novelty wore off I don't think you would get a ton of people coming in just for shits and giggles.  They may not buy every time but they wouldn't be coming in with no intention of buying at all like you get at a demo day.

 

Also, where are all of these people leaving fitters to go "find it cheaper" shopping at?  Other than buying counterfeits on eBay or hitting up the used market, what stores are offering worthwhile discounts on current gear?  I know some places will knock off $5 or 10 but am I missing the boat on some online stores that sell new TSi drivers for $450 instead of $550 or a set of ZX5 irons for $900?  Or is it just finding a place online in a different state so you don't have to pay sales tax?

Not sure who you have talked to at demo day but the shops/clubs are definitely trying to get sales from them. Some even offer discounts if you buy that day. Every rep has order sheets with them so they aren’t there just to hang out and put together clubs and watch them hit balls for 4 hours.

My pro shop takes the price of the fitting off the sale of clubs. They actually do a good amount of sales but that’s also because they have always had good fitters, carry almost every brand and are one of the few places that do fittings and have outdoor range. But they have a lot of people who get fit and don’t buy. 
 

Go hangout at a 2nd swing or pgatss where fittings are happening all the time and count how many buy new from them that day and how many walk away. 
 

Yes it’s wherever they can find a deal. They are looking for the cheapest price. I’ve been in the pro shop talking to the fitter and a customer comes back into the shop and tells him he found the same clubs cheaper. One guy saved $50. Some Sometimes the fitter would match it and sometimes he would let the customer walk all depending on the customers attitude.

Some people will look for any savings. There’s people posting on golf forums that won’t buy Prov1 because they are expensive but they will buy new Callaway or bridgestone because they are $3 cheaper

 

[Marv Town]

Where I go in Michigan they run specials  you pay for you fitting  and they give you a gift card for same amount back to be you. No expiration on the card. But If I get fitted it

[vagabon68]

On 11/2/2021 at 5:26 PM, bens197 said:

We are a country that expects a deal or a discount on everything we buy.

"Where's my discount, my senior discount, my military discount, my coupon expired yesterday but I want to buy it today." Hard pass for me.

I paid for two fittings this summer and it was money well spent.  The shop space, launch monitor, inventory and most importantly, the PEOPLE spending their time and expertise with me was worth every penny.  If I choose to not purchase a club, the shop is still being reimbursed for THEIR time.  

 

 

And exactly what is wrong with a military discount?  Are you mad because the military didn’t want you? 

[bens197]

7 hours ago, vagabon68 said:

And exactly what is wrong with a military discount?  Are you mad because the military didn’t want you? 

That’s my personal choice as a Professional Firefighter to refuse any first responder discount.
 

I shop small as much as possible. We are here discussing the topic of how free, hurts many of those small vendors. You do not need to sling insults about me not being worthy of serving this country. 
 

I decline 10% off discounts. Shopping small helps that business owner pay their mortgage, and their children’s college. It funds their summer vacation and more important, keeps business alive in our community. 10% discounts in a world with small margins does not help me as much as it hurts them. 

[YamYam]

On 11/2/2021 at 7:56 PM, DiscipleofPenick said:

I think fittings should be free, or at least highly discounted (>50%) IF the person buys a club. If I'm dropping $500+ on a Driver, or $1200+ on irons, that should save me roughly whatever a fitting will cost. FWIW the one fitting I've done was discounted almost to nothing because I bought the recommended driver that day. There are good places out here that already do this.

If you read Tom Wishon the fittings that most amateur players receive are basic to say the least and nowhere near the detailed standard that the professional game gets.

That said, you are right.  If you are paying a premium for new clubs then you deserve to have an expert custom fitting tailored to your own needs.

Gone are the days when you used to go buy a "set" of irons off the peg and just play with them.  The whole industry has herded everyone down the customised route.  You can't buy certain clubs, such as the Titleist utility irons without having them custom fit.  If this is the route that we are to be led down and the cost is going to be extortionately high then the manufacturers have to commit to making sure the product is wholly suitable.

When you buy a tailor made suit, you pay for the tailor to measure you and make sure the suit fits and looks good.  The same should go for golf clubs.

[Joefreddy]

I think so. 
I was fitted this summer at a small independent golf shop in Columbus Ohio. Their policy was we fit you for a charge of $50 but, if you buy your clubs from us we wave the fitting fee. Even if you find preowned clubs at their shop. 
I purchased new from them. They are great people. And busy. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, YamYam said:

You can't buy certain clubs, such as the Titleist utility irons without having them custom fit. 

What??? Where are you getting this information from? 
 

I can go on titieleist website right now and order the u505 or t200 utility without any fitting and can choose any of the available lofts and shafts in their matrix.

I don’t know if any brand that requires a fitting to order their clubs including XXIO.

[Laker_Long]

Should all fittings be free, absolutely not.  Should all golfers have access to a certain caliber of fitting at no charge, yes.  

- Adam seemed to continually ignore the business side of the argument saying that he is only looking out for the golfer.  If we want to go further down that line- all practice facilities should be free and club manufacturers should allow trade in their clubs when a new product fits them better because- It's best for the golfer!

- I am guilty of what Ryan said would happen if fittings were free.  I have gone into a big box golf store, spent 30 minutes getting fit for a driver and then left and ordered it through my pro shop or online.

- Adam suggested that doing free fittings would lead to increased club sales.  According to a previous My Golf Spy article a driver sold at retail for $500 costs $350 for the store to buy leaving them with $150 of profit.  If two stores both fit every customer for their clubs but one charges $75 for the fitting, the store that doesn't charge has to sell 50% more drivers to make the same margin.  I am very skeptical that free fittings would lead to a 50% increase in sales.  

- In a scenario where all fittings are free, options are going to be limited- 50 shafts in the fitting cart vs 300 for example.  Every fitter isn't going to carry the AutoFlex shaft in their fitting cart for the chance someone is willing to pay for that upgrade.  This is why TXG exist: to provide customers, who are willing to pay, access to more options and better expertise.

I believe all golfers should have access to free fittings, but all fittings should not be free.  There is a difference.      

[John Bachman]

I guess I have a question since I’ve never had a fitting. I and Ryan on NPG made a comparison to getting glasses. I consider the optometrist to be the fitter, giving me the proper lenses. When I do get my glasses they fit them to my face for free. To those of you that have had fittings. Let’s say I get fitted for irons with stock shafts, so no upgrade but they need to be bent for lie and/or loft, it’s there a charge for that if you buy from them? Seems to me that if you do everything in house they shouldn’t charge you for the adjustments. 

[vagabon68]

5 hours ago, bens197 said:

That’s my personal choice as a Professional Firefighter to refuse any first responder discount.
 

I shop small as much as possible. We are here discussing the topic of how free, hurts many of those small vendors. You do not need to sling insults about me not being worthy of serving this country. 
 

I decline 10% off discounts. Shopping small helps that business owner pay their mortgage, and their children’s college. It funds their summer vacation and more important, keeps business alive in our community. 10% discounts in a world with small margins does not help me as much as it hurts them. 

Well you don’t need to make veterans seem like beggars and if they offer the discount then they are showing support to whom ever they support. So if you decline it good for you and be the proud person you are but don’t take others down your self centered self. 

[ChuckZ]

Even Titleist is charging for fittings, but the cost goes towards the cost of the clubs to the fitting centers.   It is a modest fee.  In the past some came to Titleist for a fitting, get their numbers, go elsewhere and order their clubs.  Did not hardly seem fair to Titleist, the club or to the fitting center.  If these brand "certified fitters" spend their time and knowledge, I feel a nominal fee such as some charge is not an unreasonable fee.   These fees also ensure that people actually show up for the fittings.  A registration fee is something I am onboard with.  

[KCO15]

They should charge for fittings, but apply part or all to the purchase of clubs. That way you don't get the goofs who just want a free fitting and by clubs somewhere else wasting time...

[RickyBobby_PR]

2 hours ago, John Bachman said:

I guess I have a question since I’ve never had a fitting. I and Ryan on NPG made a comparison to getting glasses. I consider the optometrist to be the fitter, giving me the proper lenses. When I do get my glasses they fit them to my face for free. To those of you that have had fittings. Let’s say I get fitted for irons with stock shafts, so no upgrade but they need to be bent for lie and/or loft, it’s there a charge for that if you buy from them? Seems to me that if you do everything in house they shouldn’t charge you for the adjustments. 

There are no fees for ordering a non standard loft or lie. I think it depends on the store if they will charge you for bending a set off the rack but most cases I’ve seen is they order the clubs with the proper loft and lie in the fitting rather than bend their off the rack set. 
 

Keep in mind places dont carry every stock shaft offering in store and will have whatever of the stock shaft the oem offers. Example my shop has zx5 with modus 105 stiff and zx7 with modus 120 stiff. If someone fits into the regular flex which is stock it has to be ordered

[Everardo]

On 11/2/2021 at 12:41 PM, jlukes said:

Love MGS, but it’s foolish and irresponsible to make a blanket statement that all club fittings should be free 

I made it through less than half of the podcast before I had to shut it off. 
 

Kudos to Ryan for trying to explain his point thoughtfully. I wish I could say the same for the MGS side of things 

And a big eye roll to the Free Fitting T-shirt tweet sent out.  Not a good look 

So I thought the same and sent that as a tweet, then for my effort, Adam blocked me on Twitter 

I didn't swear, did call anyone names, actually saw worse comments made so let's see if I last here.....

[bens197]

1 hour ago, vagabon68 said:

Well you don’t need to make veterans seem like beggars and if they offer the discount then they are showing support to whom ever they support. So if you decline it good for you and be the proud person you are but don’t take others down your self centered self. 

You’re new here. 
 

We shy away from grievance theatre on this forum. Save that for your Facebook page. 
 

Good luck man see ya around ✌ 

[Everardo]

3 hours ago, Laker_Long said:

I believe all golfers should have access to free fittings, but all fittings should not be free.  There is a difference.      

Agreed.

Currently there are plenty of free fitting options for every golfer so that argument should be done. But Adam mentioned it would be great to have 500+ TXG type fittings available for every golfer. That's great in theory but practically it's no feasible nor will it work in a business model. In my experience, the free option doesn't equate to better sales as he mentioned and like you mentioned, people go in and get that free fitting, then go shop online or elsewhere.  People don't ultimately value free things. If they pay for it, they will be invested and value it. 

[Berg Ryman]

I told myself I wasn't going to jump in, but here I am.

I'm going to come at this from the perspective of using my current line of work as an example. As some of you know, I'm a legal aid attorney. We have contracts with governmental entities to assist those who can't hire an attorney at cost, instead getting paid through grants and stipends for our time, usually at salary and not billable hour rates. In that way, we are working "for free" for our clients.

Now, I mention this not to say that the quality of representation depends on the amount people pay for it, but that the perception is held by some that this is the way it works. Therefore, people who need the help are sometimes less gracious with my time because they feel like I'm a 'public pretender' or not a real attorney. Nothing is further from the truth, but it can be disheartening in dealing with people who treat you as a means to an end and not someone who is investing their time in to seeing them through a difficult situation. It's why I didn't understand when I was starting out why my old boss used to charge a fee for a simple consultation, $50 for 30 minutes (rolling back into the cost for the retainer for her to take the case if you chose to), but now it makes all the sense in the world to me. Present your value and eliminate those who want to take advantage of it for selfish needs.

In my opinion, the same goes if all fittings were free. These professionals are taking their time, lending their expertise and skills to you. I worked at a big box store during law school as I mentioned here many a time and was very straight with how limited our fitting process was and our options and where to go to get a fit. I told those people they may have to pay for the fitting, but that the options they would have to chose from would be well beyond our means. I've been fit twice this year for clubs and have paid twice and will be paying a third time in 2022 when I got get new woods at the end of the season. My fitter respects me, knows me, and works with me and he should get my money for cultivating that relationship and taking the time to get me right.

I mean, that's my .02 on the thing. Not all fittings should be free and making a blanket statement to paint everyone with a wide brush is never a successful way to actually engage in a meaningful conversation around actual important points in the future of an industry we all love.

[rgk5]

I've known Ryan for many years as we worked for the same company in the golf business. He knows the golf industry as well as anyone BUT, I will not agree with the idea of totally free fittings.  

In my 17 years a a Certified Custom Fitter at Golf Town I saw the pendulum swing in several directions regarding fittings.  At one time I was doing $100, full bag fittings,  and then the company promoted free fittings for 60 days.  It was then that the vampires appeared.

What is a golf vampire?  It is someone who will suck every last drop of information from the free fitting and then rush home to scour the 'net for the best deal on what I recommended based on the hundreds of hours spent on PK's, video sessions and product seminars I attended put on by the OEMs.  So in one swoop, fittings had no value as I could have sold $500-$1000 of gear in that hour to a customer who was ready to buy.  To be sure, many customers honestly took my advice and bought from our store and that was much appreciated. When something becomes "free", it has little or no value.

Edited November 4, 2021 by rgk5

[null]

1 hour ago, Berg Ryman said:

 

I mean, that's my .02 on the thing. Not all fittings should be free and making a blanket statement to paint everyone with a wide brush is never a successful way to actually engage in a meaningful conversation around actual important points in the future of an industry we all love.

Something tells me that Adam never intended this to be about having a meaningful conversation - and he did everything in his power to prevent a meaningful conversation from happening on that podcast

[fixyurdivot]

@GolfSpy MPR is this what you envisioned? 

I keep checking to see if we've reached a decision on this question... it looks like we're getting close .

[Flip4000]

Even MGS own 2021 fitting survey results the number 1 reason people didn't get fitted was they didn't believe it would benefit their game. TXG is educating people on the benefits of fitting through their youtube channel. If anything, education is the issue, and even if it was free, if people don't see the benefit, they won't try it regardless of cost.

Additionally cost didn't rank in the top 5 of ways people voted that fittings could be improved. I think cost is way less prohibitive than Adam is leading on and MGS own vote shows that. 

I also don't think quality fitters are looking to sell a new driver to the same guy every year. I think they take pride in fitting someone so well to something they don't comeback to buy another one next year, but they tell their friends who then come and get fit by the same guy.

Last, really wish Adam would have let Ryan speak. This was really hard to watch and definitely didn't sit too well with me. You have a guy who represents a business that shows people the benefits of fitting and has probably led a lot of people to get fit yet he can't get a word in because Adam keeps beating on about "that one time my free fitting idea brought in more sales". Really disappointing. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, Flip4000 said:

I also don't think quality fitters are looking to sell a new driver to the same guy every year. I think they take pride in fitting someone so well to something they don't comeback to buy another one next year, but they tell their friends who then come and get fit by the same guy.

Don’t think this is true. theres new shafts and also advances that are made in designs that can potentially offer gains in distance and/or dispersion thru face design and head design. While it’s only potential I don’t think the fitter would discourage someone from coming in to see if they can find something better and if they are a quality fitter they will be honest with the client to let them know that there isn’t anything being gained and to keep what they have. 

[Chizzle]

No it shouldn't be free for a quality fit.

When I got fit, they charged for the fitting if you don't purchase the equipment from them.  If you did purchase the equipment from them, they took the fitting cost off of the cost of the equipment.  This is the perfect business model IMO because it protects the business from people getting the information and finding that product on eBay (as Ryan was trying to point out but couldn't) and the consumer gets valuable data.

Also just a couple things.   In the episode, Adam asked "well how does Titleist do it for free?" I think Titleist can do it for free because they are multi-billion dollar corporation that knows everyone at a club can't be fit, so when members sees Bob with new shiny Titleist irons or a driver, good chance that will inspire another member to upgrade their half season old bag.

Also, I agreed with Ryan when he said there are plenty of weekend warrior golfers that care more about drinking and camaraderie than getting better.

At the end of the day, although I understand what Adam is saying and wants to happen, I dont think its an industry problem and more of what people assume problem.  You hear it often, even on NPG, where people say "i didn't think i was 'good enough' to play prov1x" or "play mizuno irons" etc and perhaps in this case "im not good enough to get fit".

At the end of it, the player needs to take ownership and be accountable.  Get fit but do research before going to maximize the chance of a positive experience.

[RickyBobby_PR]

25 minutes ago, Chizzle said:

Also just a couple things.   In the episode, Adam asked "well how does Titleist do it for free?" I think Titleist can do it for free because they are multi-billion dollar corporation that knows everyone at a club can't be fit, so when members sees Bob with new shiny Titleist irons or a driver, good chance that will inspire another member to upgrade their half season old bag.

The thing is titleist doesn’t do it for free anymore. They were like every other brand that did free demo days even when they started the titleist Thursday’s which was a way for them to do appt only fittings. Other brands did this to an extent at demo days to allow the fitters to focus on the more serious client. 
 

Titleist changed to a $100 per person fee for their fittings last year. It was kind of convuktied process for how the shops were to charge and my fitter decided not to host titleist Thursdays anymore. Titleist also brought in PGA Class A personnel to do the fittings. This is a great idea because you get a fitter who understands the swing along with the ball flight laws and how to interpret launch monitor numbers. The guy they had doing them here was really good. 

[Tom the Golf Nut]

8 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

The thing is titleist doesn’t do it for free anymore. They were like every other brand that did free demo days even when they started the titleist Thursday’s which was a way for them to do appt only fittings. Other brands did this to an extent at demo days to allow the fitters to focus on the more serious client. 
 

Titleist changed to a $100 per person fee for their fittings last year. It was kind of convuktied process for how the shops were to charge and my fitter decided not to host titleist Thursdays anymore. Titleist also brought in PGA Class A personnel to do the fittings. This is a great idea because you get a fitter who understands the swing along with the ball flight laws and how to interpret launch monitor numbers. The guy they had doing them here was really good. 

Are they charging just in certain areas? I was fit by Titleist a few months ago for free. Im saving my pennies to purchase what I was fit for. He spent time with different heads and shafts. Interpeting the track man data to get the best fit for me. He emailed me and my local golf shop the specs from my fitting so I could order at my convenience.

[RickyBobby_PR]

20 minutes ago, Tom the Golf Nut said:

Are they charging just in certain areas? I was fit by Titleist a few months ago for free. Im saving my pennies to purchase what I was fit for. He spent time with different heads and shafts. Interpeting the track man data to get the best fit for me. He emailed me and my local golf shop the specs from my fitting so I could order at my convenience.

I don’t know. I know here they were and a buddy of mine in the Midwest was charged last year. I haven’t been to the range much this year and didn’t look at the demo day schedule. I’ll ask my fitter at the shop if they changed that policy

[Chizzle]

3 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

The thing is titleist doesn’t do it for free anymore. They were like every other brand that did free demo days even when they started the titleist Thursday’s which was a way for them to do appt only fittings. Other brands did this to an extent at demo days to allow the fitters to focus on the more serious client. 
 

Titleist changed to a $100 per person fee for their fittings last year. It was kind of convuktied process for how the shops were to charge and my fitter decided not to host titleist Thursdays anymore. Titleist also brought in PGA Class A personnel to do the fittings. This is a great idea because you get a fitter who understands the swing along with the ball flight laws and how to interpret launch monitor numbers. The guy they had doing them here was really good. 

Thank you for the insight.  It also sounds like that fitter is worth the $100. 

And either way, free or paid fitting, it is an answer to Adams question.