Why should I get new irons?

[Peter-T]

Thanks everyone.

I wasn't expecting this much help.  I certainly don't swing like I did in my twenties but Id do still drink like I did.  With that said, the clubs I have are an off the shelf MacGreagor set.  They weren't great clubs when I bought them but were what I could afford.  Come spring I'll shop around for something more appropriate for my swing and budget.  Thanks for the input.

[Shapotomous]

I would go through the club fitting now and then you know what to look for over the winter.  Since you won't be in a hurry you can get used to the 'normal' price range for appropriate iron set and look for good deals.  Every couple days do a quick search on the bay and in the classifieds of some of the popular forums to see if something interesting pops up.

[Everardo]

On 11/26/2021 at 10:57 PM, Riverboat said:

Your clubs with your swing. That is certainly not evidence that others would see the same results. I'm not saying they wouldn't, but your presumed assumption that they would is exactly that, extremely presumptuous. 

Sorry I should have added 

"Individual  Results  may  vary,  and  testimonials  are  not claimed  to  represent  typical  results.  All  testimonials  are real participants , and  may  not  reflect  the  typical individual golfers experience,  and  are  not  intended  to represent  or  guarantee  that  anyone  will  achieve  the  same or  similar  results.  Every  person  has  unique  experiences, golfing habits, exercise  habits,  eating  habits,  and  applies  the  information in  a  different  way.  Thus,  the  experiences  that  we  share from  other  people  may  not  reflect  the  typical  users' experience.  I am not a coaching service  that  provides  general  healthy  living  information. This  is  not  a  substitute  for  medical  advice.  Please  consult a  physician  before  beginning any golf, exercise or diet program."

[Donn lost in San Diego]

Shaft technology is big reason why good players hit drives 50 yards longer now.  Ball tech is also a big advance, and, hey, a new box of balls costs less than a box of shafts.  Club heads are more advanced too, but not as much as shafts.  A new shaft on a 20 or 30 yr old head might surprise you.  Get shaft fitted.  Way better torque control on even modest price shafts. 

[RollingGreens]

6 minutes ago, Donn lost in San Diego said:

Shaft technology is big reason why good players hit drives 50 yards longer now.  Ball tech is also a big advance, and, hey, a new box of balls costs less than a box of shafts.  Club heads are more advanced too, but not as much as shafts.  A new shaft on a 20 or 30 yr old head might surprise you.  Get shaft fitted.  Way better torque control on even modest price shafts. 

Cost analysis still says to get fitted for a new set. It would be pretty cool if someone out a shaft adapater in an old club head to let you mix and match what might work with the current heads but it’s likely a pipe dream. Unless you are going to build the clubs yourself it’s another cost to add in. 

[ChuckZ]

On 11/25/2021 at 11:13 AM, DiscipleofPenick said:

There's going to be a big difference in forgiveness between modern irons and 40 year old ones. Also you could probably find a shaft option that fits you better than whatever is in your old clubs.

You don't need new clubs, just something new-er. Get on eBay and you'll find plenty of options of irons from the last decade for a couple hundred bucks, rather than the thousand+ a new set would run.

I for one am not a fan of purchasing clubs off eBay.  A lot of fake clubs are on there and yes you can save hundreds of dollars but buyer beware.  I prefer to purchase from dealers and know that I am getting a quality set and the manufacturer will stand behind the clubs.  Just my two cents worth.  What you purchase off eBay is yours, good bad or indifferent and you have no guarantees.    

[funkyjudge]

I am a Professional Clubfitter (I’ve been one for 30+ years) and I do hundreds of clubfitting sessions each year.  I can definitely attest to the fact that every aspect of golf equipment design has improved dramatically (maybe even exponentially) over the past couple of decades.  Improvements over the last 4 or 5 years are not nearly as dramatic as they were in the preceding decade, but the advent of hollow-bodied or foam-injected iron heads has been a major step forward in the past few years, as has the trend toward lower COGs in most iron designs.

One week ago today, I did a full-bag fitting for a very good young (early 30s) golfer who currently plays to a 6 handicap, but was a scratch player in college and his early 20s — the work world and his fairly rapid career progression has eaten heavily into his golf playing and practicing time.  He is still playing with forged blade irons that were designed at least 8 to 10 years ago, and besides the fact that the faces are getting “cupped” with grooves really worn-down, they are far from ideal for him and his current limited-practice game.  He plays a Titleist driver and hybrids (no fairway wood in his bag, and he really doesn’t need one) that are 3 to 4 years old, but his irons are about twice that old — or more!  I recommended that he consider a set of Srixon ZX7 irons, or better yet a mixed set of ZX5 longer irons (at least the 5 and 6 irons with no 4-iron in his set) and ZX7 short irons.  I also had him hitting a set of the Tour Edge Exotics C721 foam-injected better-player irons, and he was not only killing them, he hit dead-straight to slight-fade lasers on every shot.  I’m guessing that with either of these sets (Srixon or TEE C721s), he could cut his handicap index in half thanks to the more user-friendly designs alone.

[dlow206]

@Golfspy_CG2 and I should not answer the main question in this thread 

[cnosil]

1 hour ago, funkyjudge said:

I am a Professional Clubfitter (I’ve been one for 30+ years) and I do hundreds of clubfitting sessions each year.  I can definitely attest to the fact that every aspect of golf equipment design has improved dramatically (maybe even exponentially) over the past couple of decades.  Improvements over the last 4 or 5 years are not nearly as dramatic as they were in the preceding decade, but the advent of hollow-bodied or foam-injected iron heads has been a major step forward in the past few years, as has the trend toward lower COGs in most iron designs.

One week ago today, I did a full-bag fitting for a very good young (early 30s) golfer who currently plays to a 6 handicap, but was a scratch player in college and his early 20s — the work world and his fairly rapid career progression has eaten heavily into his golf playing and practicing time.  He is still playing with forged blade irons that were designed at least 8 to 10 years ago, and besides the fact that the faces are getting “cupped” with grooves really worn-down, they are far from ideal for him and his current limited-practice game.  He plays a Titleist driver and hybrids (no fairway wood in his bag, and he really doesn’t need one) that are 3 to 4 years old, but his irons are about twice that old — or more!  I recommended that he consider a set of Srixon ZX7 irons, or better yet a mixed set of ZX5 longer irons (at least the 5 and 6 irons with no 4-iron in his set) and ZX7 short irons.  I also had him hitting a set of the Tour Edge Exotics C721 foam-injected better-player irons, and he was not only killing them, he hit dead-straight to slight-fade lasers on every shot.  I’m guessing that with either of these sets (Srixon or TEE C721s), he could cut his handicap index in half thanks to the more user-friendly designs alone.

You describe some technological changes in irons like foam injected hollow bodies and moving around weighting.  You describe a blade iron set that was past its days due to how long they had been played.   You replaced those blades with more forgiving type iron and say todays irons are better than irons from 10-20 years ago.  What makes new irons better than irons that were in a comparable class from 10-20 years ago like a Mizuno MP-60 from 2006ish.   This is something that I have always struggled with;  I just don't see significant performance improvements from irons.  

[funkyjudge]

On 11/29/2021 at 7:22 PM, cnosil said:

You describe some technological changes in irons like foam injected hollow bodies and moving around weighting.  You describe a blade iron set that was past its days due to how long they had been played.   You replaced those blades with more forgiving type iron and say todays irons are better than irons from 10-20 years ago.  What makes new irons better than irons that were in a comparable class from 10-20 years ago like a Mizuno MP-60 from 2006ish.   This is something that I have always struggled with;  I just don't see significant performance improvements from irons.  

There are a multitude of features that make today's irons easier to hit (and easier to hit straight) than irons that were manufactured even ten years ago.  Those foam-injected hollow bodies and the increased low-and-back weighting are among those features, and they make even some irons that look an awful lot like blades, or at the least like better-player's irons, more forgiving than some so-called "game improvement" irons of only a decade or so back.

If you don't see significant performance improvements with the TM P790 (and even P770), Tour Edge Exotics C721 and E721, and virtually every PXG iron that has ever been made, then there is nothing that I can say to convince you.  Believe me, as a clubfitter, I see tremendous improvements in these, and many other, modern irons.

Doug

[cnosil]

10 hours ago, funkyjudge said:

There are a multitude of features that make today's irons easier to hit (and easier to hit straight) than irons that were manufactured even ten years ago.  Those foam-injected hollow bodies and the increased low-and-back weighting are among those features, and they make even some irons that look an awful lot like blades, or at the least like better-player's irons, more forgiving than some so-called "game improvement" irons of only a decade or so back.

If you don't see significant performance improvements with the TM P790 (and even P770), Tour Edge Exotics C721 and E721, and virtually every PXG iron that has ever been made, then there is nothing that I can say to convince you.  Believe me, as a clubfitter, I see tremendous improvements in these, and many other, modern irons.

Doug

I don’t get the easier to hit straight. Isn’t straight based on path and face orientation? To my knowledge irons don’t have bulge and roll like on drivers.  I’ll agree that the designs look like blades of old but really aren’t blades based on weighting and construction.  I guess the foam filled/hollow bodies allow more weight to be placed on the extremes to reduce rotation on miss hits and help launch the ball higher.
 

having hit all those clubs you do see distance increases and if performance =distance then these clubs do perform “better”.   What creates that distance increase appears to be low spin?   What I don’t seem to see is better total dispersion; maybe short long but not left right.   
 

Thanks for the response,  maybe it’s more swing related or something I need to dig into deeper.  

[cnosil]

44 minutes ago, Riverboat said:

I think most players acknowledge that it's easier to work the ball, both trajectory and curve, with blades than with game improvement irons. So why doesn't it make sense that as the weight is moved even more to the extremes of the head, this would reduce even more so the tendency to curve the ball, i.e. hit it straighter. I know that my new pxg 0211s have virtually eliminated the raging hook that has always been my most annoying and costly miss.

YOu didn’t answer the original question.  And I don’t acknowledge your fact; hence my asking for more details.  I know overanalyzing, but I don’t see comparable clubs going straighter.  Impact conditions determine ball flight.  Dynamic loft influences backspin and face angle and path influence left/right curve.  Answer this: Given the same launch conditions, why would a GI travel straighter than a players iron? For a center strike there should be no difference other than backspin and vertical launch which means more distance not decreased curve.   On an off center strike with same conditions, the players iron will want to twist which reduces ball speed and maybe increases curve.  actual performance impact  would be getting into how much the person misses the center of the face.  The perimeter weighting should influence the clubs rate of rotation.  So a GI club should rotate in the swing more slowly which could help a player deliver the face angle more consistently.   Maybe that last part is actually the answer to my original question on older GI vs new GI clubs.  The hollow body designs and lighter metals, clubs have more perimeter weighting than 10+ years ago which helps control face angle so once a player figures out how to deliver the club close to square it is easier to repeat?  

[cnosil]

43 minutes ago, Riverboat said:

So all the good players who avoid gi irons because they are more difficult to work are wrong?

You say "On an off center strike with same conditions, the players iron will want to twist which reduces ball speed and maybe increases curve." Exactly!! Since I and most amateurs miss the center of the face most of the time, this happens, so the gi irons fly straighter. You made my case for me. 

The raging hook I referenced earlier was almost always a toe strike. That same strike with the 0211s is a draw that is still playable. 

I personally think it is more related to feedback.  Good players want to know why a ball,reacted the way it did.  I find with GI and SGI clubs is that it is more difficult to tell where you strike the ball on the face not that it is more difficult to work. 

But again, you aren’t addressing my original question.  I don’t disagree that by switching categories of clubs that performance is different.  Stay in the same category of clubs.  Why is a 2021 players iron better than a 2000 players iron?  Why is a 2021 GI iron better than a 2000 GI iron?  If both clubs were in pristine condition what makes the newer club so much better?  

[cnosil]

1 hour ago, Riverboat said:

I'm not as deep into the science of this as you seem to be, but I can see results. When I bought my Taylormades 8ish years ago, they reduced my miss hits over my previous set.

that is what I want to get into and you don’t seem able to provide an answer other than saying you might be right on your assumption.  The individual that originally answered and I quoted is a long time club fitter which is why I am hoping he might be able to provide some detailed insight.   For what it’s worth, I have tried various sets over the years within the same club category and don’t see the same benefits you are.  When I hit clubs on the course, I am able to move the ball when i need too so there isn’t a lack of workability and I don’t see any better ball flight or straightness. 
 

I read articles that claim distance and forgiveness.  They show charts that compare 70s/80s clubs vs current and newer ones have slightly higher launch and higher peak and more distance.  I’ve also read that you may not see much difference from irons over the past 15 years.  Yes improvement but unless worn out you may not see significant benefit.  They say weight has been moved more distance more forgiveness, etc. I have also seen that all of this allows for a smaller club head…which people like the looks of.   How much forgiveness does this advancement give me?  Has my are of forgiveness grown from 1” to 1 1/8” and is that meaningful?  
 

back to the original question..when should I get new irons? I guess keep trying them and when you see a difference that is meaningful to you then you know it is time.   

[Hoyoymac]

In the last year I’ve switched from relatively new Players distance irons (Titleist AP3) to forged cavity back irons (Corey Paul) to forged blades (also Corey Paul).  

What I’ve learned is that loft has been the biggest determiner of distance. My current 9 iron and my old Pitching wedge have very similar lofts and they go pretty much the same distance.

The shafts I’m using now are heavier steel 120 g stiff vs the previous steel 110 g stiff and the ball is not curving as much while giving me the trajectory that I want.

I bought the AP3s new after having been fitted for them in 2018.  They had about 700 rounds played and are still in very good shape albeit a little dinged up.

The Corey Paul forged cavity backs felt better, have very clean lines but the top line was a little boxy and I just did not like the shape of the pitching wedge.  The transition from the hosel to the face also made it appear that there was more offset than actually what was measured.  

Despite hitting them well I had the chance to put together a set of Corey Paul minimalist blades and am glad that I did because they are everything I had hoped they would be.  Love the way they look, feel and perform so far and expect I will be playing them for awhile.

So, when is it the right time to get a new set of irons?  

Lots of possible answers based on performance, feel, confidence, economics, etc.

In general though I would say get a new set when the current set is not allowing you to achieve whatever your goals are in playing golf whether that be carry distance, peak height, trajectory and shot shape, landing angle and spin, dispersion, feel, looks, lower scores, or status.

Best wishes to you in finding a set of irons that tick all of the boxes!  

 

[cnosil]

4 hours ago, Riverboat said:

Last response since I seem to be bothering you. 

You are very good at answering your own questions. The last paragraph you wrote is the correct answer for any purchase. 

Otherwise, your inconsistency is interesting. From me, you say I am just giving you experience, when you want scientific reasons. But as I pointed out, you've already given the scientific reasons and club improvements, but you trust your experiences that those things haven't panned out for your swing. You clearly want to keep your old irons, so keep them. Nobody can convince you otherwise when you already have all the answers. 

Final question, and it's not meant to offend... If you can work the ball, I'm assuming you mean both ways, when necessary, shouldn't you be seeing better scoring results? I haven't been able to move it left to right since I stopped paying blades 25 years ago, but when I could do it effectively, I was in the very low single digits, as is almost everyone I know who can do that. What is holding you back? Judging by all I've read from you, could it be that you just make everything too complicated? Maybe you should try simplifying for awhile. I really think it might improve your play. 

Really not bothering me.  Maybe I am correctly answering my own questions and looking for something more objective.  Probably will never get the exact response I am looking for and would have to do my own comparisons on a launch monitor and on the course.   Also,  I don't have old irons,  don't know if you looked at my signature,  but my irons are only a a couple of years old.    My ultimate answer might be age    I just feel like my game has really dropped off since I switched away from my old Cleveland  TA-7 Tours in about 2015.   At that time I was hesitant about switching but wanted new irons for no other reason that I wanted new irons.  

When I played the TA-7s,  I was a 4 and my handicap was trending down;  since then it has slowly been rising.   When I play I don't try to work the ball;  one shot shape unless I need to hit something from out of the trees. That is what I mean when I say that I am able to move it both ways when necessary.   I try to play a pretty simple game strategically so I am not sure what I am making too complicated.   My short game totally collapsed and I was losing significant stroke due to bladed and chunked chips/pitches even when the goal was to just get it on the green.  Since I have been focusing on the short game,  my full swing took a backseat and I now have a big miss that pops up through the round  that causes blow up holes.   From your perspective what do you think I am doing that is too complicated?

 

 

 

[John Bachman]

I agree with the other comment that you should hit some side by side with your irons. If you haven’t played for that long you may find that the modern day irons will help with mis-hits and will have possibly better shaft options. Don’t dismiss the idea of looking at used drivers and f-woods. You can find good quality equipment for a lot less money. 

[GAS]

Two very good pieces of advice have been offered: 1. Newer shafts will probably be your best investment and; 2. Take you clubs and hit them along with new and used irons. Iron technology has not changed that much in the last 5 years and you may be able to get a 'newer set at a discount.

I also have a Ping Anser and went to a putter fitting. The fitter watched a few putts and said you don't need a new putter just better alignment and aim routine. Gave me a lesson and I was good to go. 

My point is go to a fitter who will provide an honest evaluation.

[MacMan]

On 11/26/2021 at 9:19 PM, Riverboat said:

Absolutely. Irons don't have to cost 1300. You can get pxg 0211s, with fitting, for half that., and they are fantastic clubs. 

Did the same  6-pw superb! £420  or $620 helped my game, great fitting experience too. 

More importantly will spending big money help you enjoy the game more? I would say Yes!

[Kenny B]

38 minutes ago, MacMan said:

Did the same  6-pw superb! £420  or $620 helped my game, great fitting experience too. 

More importantly will spending big money help you enjoy the game more? I would say Yes!

With a Macgregor avatar, don't tell me you replaced Macgregor irons with PXGs!!