Jump to content
TESTERS WANTED! ×

Instructor vs. Coach


Recommended Posts

TXG has started another instructional series of videos and I just watched the one linked below and really enjoyed the topic.    Definitely a huge difference between an instructor and a coach and what they are trying to achieve.     Listening to the conversations in the video makes me think about the various questions on the forum and whether people want/need coaching or instruction.   

 

 

 

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15*  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :titleist-small: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite
Putter:   :taylormade-small:TM-180

Testing:   SPGC_logo.jpg

Backups:  :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, :seemore-small: mFGP2, :cameron-small: Futura 5W

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It’s a good video. I like the discussion and definitely something I think would benefit a lot of people on forums. 
 

Ive had both instruction and coaching and when I did a 6 month coaching plan I improved the most. I learned course management along with technique and how to self correct.

I definitely prefer the coaching aspect. I look for an instructor that understands my style of fitness training and how things that work in that have to be changed when it comes to the golf swing.

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Goober said:

I’m my own coach.Why waste money on lessons anyway.We aren’t pros 

How do you learn about correct strategy and what you need to do to fix your swing?   What are your golf goals;  are you trying to get better? 

 

Update:  I just looked at your fist post and you said in your other post that you play 4-5 times a year;  so I would agree with you that you don't need a coach, instructor or lessons to just go hit the ball a few times a year. 

 

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15*  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :titleist-small: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite
Putter:   :taylormade-small:TM-180

Testing:   SPGC_logo.jpg

Backups:  :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, :seemore-small: mFGP2, :cameron-small: Futura 5W

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I haven't watched the video,

but my own impression was that an instructor teaches you while a coach knows your swing and can see where you may be "off."

Coaches, in my mind, would be mainly for serious competition players.  They wouldn't apply to me.

As for instruction, I got some of that but probably not enough.  And my original instructor left us many years ago.

 

Louisville Golf Persimmon___2, 4, 5, 7-woods;    Epon AF-906___driving iron;   Titleist T100 5, 6, 7, 8, 9-irons; 

Titleist T100S___48°;     Edison 2.0___53º;     Titleist SM-9 (T)___58º;   Tad Moore Otto Hackbarth___putter;   

Titleist Pro V1x___ball

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, cnosil said:

How do you learn about correct strategy and what you need to do to fix your swing?   What are your golf goals;  are you trying to get better? 

 

Update:  I just looked at your fist post and you said in your other post that you play 4-5 times a year;  so I would agree with you that you don't need a coach, instructor or lessons to just go hit the ball a few times a year. 

 

According to many a study’s. Playing 4-5 times a year is avid golf. And I bet for as little as I play ( in your opinion) . I may easily be able too beat you. Infact your head may be full of so many convoluted swing thoughts and techniques you might be a mess by the 9 th hole.

why not try something very simple. Learn the basics ( grip / posture and alignment) . Go and learn the game by playing and develop a natural ball flight. Mine has been a slight pull to a hook/draw for decades now. That is all I need. And I just deal with what the day brings me. 
 

I’ve been watching these so called YouTube instructors. And just cringe at all the time and effort one would have to set aside to even come close to their expectations. What a waste of time and what a boat load of money they are making. We aren’t pros who play 8 plus hours a day. Let it go.. enjoy the game and play with what you have.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Riverboat said:

Just accept and enjoy the game at your level. New clubs every two years, $50 balls, and all the lessons in the world aren't going to change things if you are at the limits of your physical capabilities. 

Some people enjoy taking lessons, some people enjoy buying new equipment,  some people enjoy playing overpriced golf courses.   as you said,  go out and enjoy the game.  That is what we are doing on this forum,  talking about the game we enjoy and how we practice and work to get better.  

 

2 hours ago, Goober said:

According to many a study’s. Playing 4-5 times a year is avid golf. And I bet for as little as I play ( in your opinion) . I may easily be able too beat you. Infact your head may be full of so many convoluted swing thoughts and techniques you might be a mess by the 9 th hole.

why not try something very simple. Learn the basics ( grip / posture and alignment) . Go and learn the game by playing and develop a natural ball flight. Mine has been a slight pull to a hook/draw for decades now. That is all I need. And I just deal with what the day brings me. 

You may be enthusiastic about the game,  but I think most people would say you don't play a lot of golf.   You may easily be able to beat me; never said you could or couldn't.  I simply asked how you learn about strategy and improve your game.;  I guess you have no interest in improving.   You said to learn the basics;  where do you learn the basics and how do you develop a "natural" ball flight if you shouldn't waste money on golf instruction? 

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15*  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :titleist-small: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite
Putter:   :taylormade-small:TM-180

Testing:   SPGC_logo.jpg

Backups:  :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, :seemore-small: mFGP2, :cameron-small: Futura 5W

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Riverboat said:

Personally, I read hogan's five lessons years ago. Aside from a few informal lessons from pro friends, it's the only instruction I've ever had or wanted. In my twenty five years of high school coaching, I always focused on grip, posture, and alignment, with some work on hitting the slot at the top, and just that was usually enough to get players from the 100s as freshman to about 80 as seniors (provided, of course, that they practiced, played, and did enough short game work). Those who went even lower sometimes needed more from either me or a private instructor, but I never wanted them to get too technical if they were just there for fun. By the way, there was also always a huge focus on PACE OF PLAY.

So to get better,  you are recommending instruction?  Really confused now..  

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15*  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :titleist-small: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite
Putter:   :taylormade-small:TM-180

Testing:   SPGC_logo.jpg

Backups:  :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, :seemore-small: mFGP2, :cameron-small: Futura 5W

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, Riverboat said:

If you see what I said above, I see nothing wrong with a few lessons to learn the basics, but constant instruction for years with little or no improvement is a waste of time and money. 

this is your opinion and we could build a laundry list of things that each of us believe people waste money on.    Not sure what your definition of constant instruction is, but I don't think there are many people on here doing constant instruction for years. 

 

 Ultimately you are entitled to your opinion, but this topic was a discussion on the role of a coach vs. an instructor and not about them being a waste of time and money.   If you are happy with your game then keep doing what you are doing.   I want to improve and I have been pursuing both coaching and instruction,  don't believe that I have maxed out my potential  or optimized my scoring spread, and don't think just working on grip, posture, and alignment will help me get better.  

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15*  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :titleist-small: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite
Putter:   :taylormade-small:TM-180

Testing:   SPGC_logo.jpg

Backups:  :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, :seemore-small: mFGP2, :cameron-small: Futura 5W

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Riverboat said:

Knock yourself out. Clearly you have the money and enjoy working with instructors and or coaches. I have no issue with you doing what you want. Just don't play slow in front of me as you analyze every movement please (that was a joke, so don't get mad). And you are right, I was just sharing opinions in response to some posts I saw. That's what we do here. I do think many people would play better with just the basics instead of getting lost in the minutia, but that may or may not be true for you. 

I have problems that I can't solve myself 🙂.  I use an instructor to help me with the fundamentals of the swing.   I use a coach to help me effectively get around a course and have realistic expectations on shot results.    Don't worry,  I am not a slow player and don't analyze my swing every moment I am on the course.     IMO,  I do agree that there are some people on this forum that overdo it when it comes to switching equipment and instructors and I mock them some but at the end of the day it is their choice on how they want to enjoy the game. 

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15*  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :titleist-small: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite
Putter:   :taylormade-small:TM-180

Testing:   SPGC_logo.jpg

Backups:  :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, :seemore-small: mFGP2, :cameron-small: Futura 5W

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, cnosil said:

I have problems that I can't solve myself 🙂.  I use an instructor to help me with the fundamentals of the swing.   I use a coach to help me effectively get around a course and have realistic expectations on shot results.    Don't worry,  I am not a slow player and don't analyze my swing every moment I am on the course.     IMO,  I do agree that there are some people on this forum that overdo it when it comes to switching equipment and instructors and I mock them some but at the end of the day it is their choice on how they want to enjoy the game. 

It helps to have a second set of eyes check for some of the basic things.  Or your own set of eyes if you can get a video of your swing and know what your 'good' swing looks like.  I have made adjustments to my swing as I've got older to maintain my game and got most of those ideas from the dreaded You Tube instructors.  

Modern Bag:  :ping-small: G410 LST 10.5*, Hzrdus Smoke RDX 6.5 Flex;   :titelist-small:  915F 3w, Diamana S+ 70 S flex;  Snake Eyes 18* 2h, 23* 4h & 27* 5h; :mizuno-small: JPX 900 Forged 6 - PW, PX LZ 6.0;  Edison 2.0 49*, 53*, 57* KBS Tour 120 S;   :ping-small:  Heppler Fetch;  Ball - :Snell: MTB-X; Bag - Jones MyGolfSpy Edition! 

Shot Scope H4, MG600 Rangefinder

Classic Bag:  Driver - :wilson_staff_small: Persimmon; 3w - :Hogan: Speed Slot; 5w - :wilson_staff_small: Tour Block; 3 - pw - :wilson_staff_small: Dynapower; sw - Ram Tom Watson;  putter - bullseye standard or flange.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Riverboat  Dayum.....sounds like you need a better circle of golf buddies!!  🤣  The slow play attribute would have me glad i lost them as potential playing partners.  

Back to topic....

Instruction & lessons to me will be suggestions to the swing to make the most of the physical limitations we all have and checks and corrections periodically to keep us from drifting too far off that 'standard'.  

Coaching would be something like course strategy or the bag set up to optimize our skills with our choice of which 14 (or less) clubs to carry.  It would also involve analyzing the weak points in our game and what needs work.  

Modern Bag:  :ping-small: G410 LST 10.5*, Hzrdus Smoke RDX 6.5 Flex;   :titelist-small:  915F 3w, Diamana S+ 70 S flex;  Snake Eyes 18* 2h, 23* 4h & 27* 5h; :mizuno-small: JPX 900 Forged 6 - PW, PX LZ 6.0;  Edison 2.0 49*, 53*, 57* KBS Tour 120 S;   :ping-small:  Heppler Fetch;  Ball - :Snell: MTB-X; Bag - Jones MyGolfSpy Edition! 

Shot Scope H4, MG600 Rangefinder

Classic Bag:  Driver - :wilson_staff_small: Persimmon; 3w - :Hogan: Speed Slot; 5w - :wilson_staff_small: Tour Block; 3 - pw - :wilson_staff_small: Dynapower; sw - Ram Tom Watson;  putter - bullseye standard or flange.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thinking more on this topic and reading the responses it is interesting that we talk mostly about instruction. How to swing the club and reaching physical limitations; it is for the pros, and it brings in to many technical thoughts.  I agree that Taking instructional lessons forever will definitely reach a point of diminishing returns to,where there isn’t anything an instruction could do do to improve a swing or that the investment would really only be necessary if you are playing at the highest levels.  That said, Periodic lesson over time should provide a benefit to help refine our swing as we age or fall into bad habits; essentially the spring tune up.    I would say this is how do I swing a hammer.

what we don’t seem to talk about or differentiate is the coaching aspect and taking those “limited” skills and better applying them to score better and play better golf.  This starts down the path of things like strokes gained, DECADE, expectation  management, how should I play a particular hole, and how do I win my club championship.  I would say this is the how do I construct a house.    
 

 

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15*  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :titleist-small: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite
Putter:   :taylormade-small:TM-180

Testing:   SPGC_logo.jpg

Backups:  :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, :seemore-small: mFGP2, :cameron-small: Futura 5W

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know where the trolling in the middle of this thread came from but it was not particularly helpful. Anyway, I think this is an interesting topic because I have been taking monthly lessons for the last year and I think I am getting to the point where my swing is repeatable and solid and I need to back my lessons down to quarterly or possibly less. It's not to say that I can't get better, I just don't have that much time to practice so now that I can diagnose and get things back on track if they come loose, I need to determine how to go forward with instruction. 

That said, having instructions has VASTLY improved not only my game but my enjoyment of the game. I am no longer going out there and hoping that what I am doing is right or experimenting with swing tips or other things. I largely ignore any swing instruction that I may come across on the internet or on social media because, well, I have an instructor. That has been invaluable. Just seeing the difference between what I thought I should be doing vs what I was actually doing vs what my instructor taught me was all vastly different. 

:mizuno-small: STZ 230 9.5* "Std" setting ➖ :mizuno-small: STZ 230 Hybrid 18* "lower" setting➖ :mizuno-small: Pro Fli-Hi 21.5* ➖ MALTBY TS1-IM 5-GW ➖ :benhogan-small: Equalizer II 54* ➖ :ping-small: Glide 4.0 (S) 58* ➖ L.A.B. Directed Force 2.1 
Maxfli Tour X Official Review -- https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/63068-testers-announced-maxfli-tour-x-golf-balls-with-max-align-technology/?do=findComment&comment=1021832

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would say I could use a little of both coach and instructor. I would love to learn how to hit a draw for the added distance vs my slight fade. I’d also like to learn how to work the ball more. Truth be told I play game improvement irons and am a single digit handicap. My guess is a coach is more aimed toward scoring, at least for myself so I would guess he would tell me to stick to my gear and maximize my potential vs getting more workable sets of clubs. I think a instructor would teach me how to work the ball and fix a few shortcomings that I want even though it’s probably not really needed. I keep the ball in play and have solid striking abilities. So I guess if I could find an instructor who could help with more on course vs training facility type work

:taylormade-small: Stealth 2 Plus 9deg Kai' li Red

:taylormade-small:Stealth 2 13deg Aldilla Rogue Silver

:taylormade-small:Stealth 2 15deg Aldilla Rogue Silver

:mizuno-small: JPX 921 Hot Metal 4-PW Nippon Modus 120s

:vokey-small: SM8 54 and 58deg Dynamic Gold Wedge Flex

:titleist-small: Scotty Cameron Newport 2

Titleist ProV1

:ping-small: Hoofer Stand Bag

Stewart Q Follow Electric Caddie

:callaway-small: 300 PRO Rangefinder

Official Nippon Regio B+ Driver Shaft Review

Official Stewart Q Follow Review

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I had always thought of my instructor as both.  Certainly my last two have offered on course playing lessons which would seem to be similar to "coaching."  I'm in the camp of always trying to improve - I'm at that age where if I don't I'm going to head in the wrong direction pretty quickly - certainly I need to learn how to fit what I'm capable of into the course that lies ahead of me in the fewest strokes possible. 

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, revkev said:

I had always thought of my instructor as both.  Certainly my last two have offered on course playing lessons which would seem to be similar to "coaching."  I'm in the camp of always trying to improve - I'm at that age where if I don't I'm going to head in the wrong direction pretty quickly - certainly I need to learn how to fit what I'm capable of into the course that lies ahead of me in the fewest strokes possible. 

I think they can definitely be both; there are times where players need instruction and others where they need coaching.  

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15*  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :titleist-small: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite
Putter:   :taylormade-small:TM-180

Testing:   SPGC_logo.jpg

Backups:  :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, :seemore-small: mFGP2, :cameron-small: Futura 5W

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, revkev said:

I'm at that age where if I don't I'm going to head in the wrong direction pretty quickly - certainly I need to learn how to fit what I'm capable of into the course that lies ahead of me in the fewest strokes possible. 

Good thinking, Rev, and admirable dedication as well.

I've opted for heading in the opposite direction, one,  because it's really easy to do,

and two, because I'm beyond the age of seeking out difficult projects!😎

Louisville Golf Persimmon___2, 4, 5, 7-woods;    Epon AF-906___driving iron;   Titleist T100 5, 6, 7, 8, 9-irons; 

Titleist T100S___48°;     Edison 2.0___53º;     Titleist SM-9 (T)___58º;   Tad Moore Otto Hackbarth___putter;   

Titleist Pro V1x___ball

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/28/2021 at 6:07 PM, cnosil said:

I have problems that I can't solve myself 🙂.  I use an instructor to help me with the fundamentals of the swing.   I use a coach to help me effectively get around a course and have realistic expectations on shot results.    Don't worry,  I am not a slow player and don't analyze my swing every moment I am on the course.     IMO,  I do agree that there are some people on this forum that overdo it when it comes to switching equipment and instructors and I mock them some but at the end of the day it is their choice on how they want to enjoy the game. 

According to the Illinois golf association. Averaging 4-5 rounds a year is avid. Which I concur is more than efficient for getting ones game in good standings.

Not sure about online forum golf (which appears to be all fields of beautiful roses). But in real life.. lessons really haven’t helped many amateurs besides the basics of the game. Proper grip , alignment , and a posture that allows one to make contact with the ball. These videos that I watch from top instructors are extremely futile. Who has the time or effort for practicing hours upon hours fixing swing faults that may have been ingrained for decades. The dedication I’m sure is there. But come on now folks … it’s really ludicrous. Whatever happened to swing your swing ? I think knowing the ball flight laws and a basic under of physics is all ones need. And ball flight laws has been around since the invention of this game. Boy some of you are lost : and not sounding harsh. But wake up 

Edited by Goober
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Goober said:

According to the Illinois golf association. Averaging 4-5 rounds a year is avid. Which I concur is more than efficient for getting ones game in good standings.

Not sure about online forum golf (which appears to be all fields of beautiful roses). But in real life.. lessons really haven’t helped many amateurs besides the basics of the game. Proper grip , alignment , and a posture that allows one to make contact with the ball. These videos that I watch from top instructors are extremely futile. Who has the time or effort for practicing hours upon hours fixing swing faults that may have been ingrained for decades. The dedication I’m sure is there. But come on now folks … it’s really ludicrous. Whatever happened to swing your swing ? I think knowing the ball flight laws and a basic under of physics is all ones need. And ball flight laws has been around since the invention of this game. Boy some of you are lost : and not sounding harsh. But wake up 

Okay, you're an avid golfer.  

Maybe I am the exception, but lessons have helped me beyond the grip, alignment, and posture aspect.    I and most others on the forum am not advocating for players to pick and watch golf tips.   People make time for whatever they want and if it is working on their golf swing why should you care?   I haven't seen anyone here advocating for people to rebuild their entire swing but if they want to do that why does it matter?  Some people on the forum are working on those basics; others are working on things beyond the basics.  It appears you are looking at the extremes and really aren't open to discussions about this game.   Yes the concept of balls flight laws has been around since the invention of the game;  but they were wrong about them and had to fix them based on new discoveries.    

 

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15*  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :titleist-small: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite
Putter:   :taylormade-small:TM-180

Testing:   SPGC_logo.jpg

Backups:  :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, :seemore-small: mFGP2, :cameron-small: Futura 5W

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, Goober said:

According to the Illinois golf association. Averaging 4-5 rounds a year is avid. Which I concur is more than efficient for getting ones game in good standings.

Not sure about online forum golf (which appears to be all fields of beautiful roses). But in real life.. lessons really haven’t helped many amateurs besides the basics of the game. Proper grip , alignment , and a posture that allows one to make contact with the ball. These videos that I watch from top instructors are extremely futile. Who has the time or effort for practicing hours upon hours fixing swing faults that may have been ingrained for decades. The dedication I’m sure is there. But come on now folks … it’s really ludicrous. Whatever happened to swing your swing ? I think knowing the ball flight laws and a basic under of physics is all ones need. And ball flight laws has been around since the invention of this game. Boy some of you are lost : and not sounding harsh. But wake up 

Glad that I don’t live in Illinois. 🙂

 

In all seriousness if you are content with your game, great. But recognize that others aren’t, they wish to do better or even for them the pursuit of being better  misguided or not, is what’s fun.

You are very unlikely to change anyone’s mind by launching attacks.

And I happen to agree about the you tube video stuff - the guy doesn’t know my physical capabilities or swing type - following his advice may cause more harm than good.  But that’s me, some swear by that style of learning - good for them. 

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

53 minutes ago, Goober said:

According to the Illinois golf association. Averaging 4-5 rounds a year is avid. Which I concur is more than efficient for getting ones game in good standings.

Not sure about online forum golf (which appears to be all fields of beautiful roses). But in real life.. lessons really haven’t helped many amateurs besides the basics of the game. Proper grip , alignment , and a posture that allows one to make contact with the ball. These videos that I watch from top instructors are extremely futile. Who has the time or effort for practicing hours upon hours fixing swing faults that may have been ingrained for decades. The dedication I’m sure is there. But come on now folks … it’s really ludicrous. Whatever happened to swing your swing ? I think knowing the ball flight laws and a basic under of physics is all ones need. And ball flight laws has been around since the invention of this game. Boy some of you are lost : and not sounding harsh. But wake up 

There a lot of golfers across golf forums,  Facebook groups and other social media platforms including myself that will disagree that lessons haven’t helped anyone and definitely disagree they haven’t significantly helped anyone.

I went from a 20+ handicap to a single digit handicap in about 2 years from lessons and they were far more than the basics of grip, alignment and posture. 

Those who want to get better will make the time to spend hours practicing and getting lessons which is no different than anyone trying to get better at anything. I played golf, practiced golf, workers 8-10 hours days, hit the gym and played baseball 2x/week. I know several others who had similar lifestyles 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Riverboat said:

I'm not attacking, arguing, or trolling, just sharing a few thoughts. If you worked as hard as you say you did for those 2 years, my guess is you would have improved rather drastically with the instruction you received, with instruction on just the basics, and even with no instruction at all. I don't know what the state of your game was when you started this process, whether you were a beginner, an occasional golfer, or someone who had worked that hard for years with no instruction and no improvement. Only in the last case could we reasonably assume that the instruction made the difference. 

I am certainly not anti- instruction, as I coached golf for 25 years. But I do believe, based on all those years, and on my observation of friends and acquaintances, that over- instruction is just as common (maybe more so) as too little instruction (to say nothing of bad instruction, which is remarkably common). I find that most players get bogged down in detail when taken much beyond the basics. Believe me, I have seen many naturally talented players destroyed by trying to be technically perfect. Any of you remember Bobby Clampett?

Now there are exceptions to this, as there are with everything. I'm sure there are players out there who respond well to constant tinkering, but the extended droughts of naturally beautiful players like Rory McIlroy and Ricky Fowler are I think examples of what I'm talking about. The results can be even more profound with amateurs who don't have the natural physical ability to at least keep their game in reasonably good shape. All I'm saying is caution is in order when taking a deep dive into instruction, and most of us reach a point where no amount of instruction will keep us improving. If this weren't the case, there would be far more plus handicaps on the links. 

So wouldn’t that point to the need for more coaches?  People who are able to say, “Heres how you take what you have and shoot the best scores possible?” 
 

That seems to be the question the OP was getting at. 

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Riverboat said:

If you worked as hard as you say you did for those 2 years, my guess is you would have improved rather drastically with the instruction you received, with instruction on just the basics, and even with no instruction at all. I don't know what the state of your game was when you started this process, whether you were a beginner, an occasional golfer, or someone who had worked that hard for years with no instruction and no improvement. Only in the last case could we reasonably assume that the instruction made the difference. 

I played frequently for years but was just one more activity I did with coworkers along with the various military sports leagues I played in throughout the year. My swing was self taught and my baseball skills let me him the ball decently. I decided to take lessons to improve my game and my swing. 
 

My lessons were far more coaching than pure instruction. I was also learning about the swing so that I could self diagnose and correct during a round.

17 minutes ago, Riverboat said:

I am certainly not anti- instruction, as I coached golf for 25 years.

 

no offense but coaching high school golf IMO is a lot different than giving lessons on a daily basis for a living. I had and have seen numerous high school coaches in various sports that knew less about the game they coached than they student athlete. Or that the basics is all the really know and can’t dive into actually coaching and improving an athlete. Not saying thats you but what I’ve seen in high school coaching during my school years and in some of what I’ve seen throughout the years including with some of the younger athletes I’ve played sports with over the last 30 years.

17 minutes ago, Riverboat said:

I find that most players get bogged down in detail when taken much beyond the basics. Believe me, I have seen many naturally talented players destroyed by trying to be technically perfect. Any of you remember Bobby Clampett?

Now there are exceptions to this, as there are with everything. I'm sure there are players out there who respond well to constant tinkering, but the extended droughts of naturally beautiful players like Rory McIlroy and Ricky Fowler are I think examples of what I'm talking about. The results can be even more profound with amateurs who don't have the natural physical ability to at least keep their game in reasonably good shape.

This is more on the instructor than the student, but some blame on the student for not communicating with the instructor. A good instructor is going to understand how and to what a student responds to, what gets them stuck and how to get out of it. It’s also an area I think has improved in instruction over the last 5-7 years where instructors are developing their skills and understanding that each lesson doesn’t have to be tinkering and trying new stuff but continuing to work on a move/feel/drill to help the student reinforce the aspect they are trying to improve but also many are getting away from doing full on swing work during the lesson and having the student out the swing work to the test under pressure by hitting golf shots. That could be using the various tools on launch monitors like trackman academy or some of the practice tools or using the range to hit to targets or working on ball flight up and down or playing fades and draws. 
 

But what you’ve at is why the thread was started and what the video is about 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Riverboat said:

Maybe I just assume that adults should be able to figure that out for themselves. Probably a silly assumption. 

Players should be able to figure out effective strategy by themselves?     The process of learning isn't something that is always done independently from other people.  PGA professionals constantly work on how improving their strategy and leverage coaches to help them.   Yes,  you can figure out how to play,  but how do you know it is the best/right way?  How long will it take you to build that knowledge?

 

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15*  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :titleist-small: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite
Putter:   :taylormade-small:TM-180

Testing:   SPGC_logo.jpg

Backups:  :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, :seemore-small: mFGP2, :cameron-small: Futura 5W

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is probably a separate thread but I am truly curious what constitutes "the basics" when it comes to a golf lesson. 

Is it keep your eye on the ball or is it keep your weight inside your trail foot or is it shaft lean & hit down on the ball with your irons (and even fairway woods depending on your lie) and have a positive angle of attack on the driver or does it include teaching somebody to properly set their wrists or is it teaching somebody how to read the grain on the green or is it turn don't sway or weight transfer or teaching someone how to bump and run with an 8 iron rather than grabbing for a wedge 100% of the time around the green, or how to play for ball flight tendencies off different slopes, or.......? 

Or do some of these get past "the basics" and into over instruction? 

 

Modern Bag:  :ping-small: G410 LST 10.5*, Hzrdus Smoke RDX 6.5 Flex;   :titelist-small:  915F 3w, Diamana S+ 70 S flex;  Snake Eyes 18* 2h, 23* 4h & 27* 5h; :mizuno-small: JPX 900 Forged 6 - PW, PX LZ 6.0;  Edison 2.0 49*, 53*, 57* KBS Tour 120 S;   :ping-small:  Heppler Fetch;  Ball - :Snell: MTB-X; Bag - Jones MyGolfSpy Edition! 

Shot Scope H4, MG600 Rangefinder

Classic Bag:  Driver - :wilson_staff_small: Persimmon; 3w - :Hogan: Speed Slot; 5w - :wilson_staff_small: Tour Block; 3 - pw - :wilson_staff_small: Dynapower; sw - Ram Tom Watson;  putter - bullseye standard or flange.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Shapotomous said:

This is probably a separate thread but I am truly curious what constitutes "the basics" when it comes to a golf lesson. 

Is it keep your eye on the ball or is it keep your weight inside your trail foot or is it shaft lean & hit down on the ball with your irons (and even fairway woods depending on your lie) and have a positive angle of attack on the driver or does it include teaching somebody to properly set their wrists or is it teaching somebody how to read the grain on the green or is it turn don't sway or weight transfer or teaching someone how to bump and run with an 8 iron rather than grabbing for a wedge 100% of the time around the green, or how to play for ball flight tendencies off different slopes, or.......? 

Or do some of these get past "the basics" and into over instruction? 

 

The "basics" seem to be grip, posture, and alignment.

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15*  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :titleist-small: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite
Putter:   :taylormade-small:TM-180

Testing:   SPGC_logo.jpg

Backups:  :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, :seemore-small: mFGP2, :cameron-small: Futura 5W

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, cnosil said:

The "basics" seem to be grip, posture, and alignment.

Hogans book covers those items but also gets well beyond them and that was held up as a standard for instruction so I wondered where exactly the "basics" line should be drawn.  I learned a lot by reading the condensed version that was included with the purchase of a dozen Hogan balls back in the 70's.  The image of having your arms wrapped in an ace bandage holding the triangle was the most influential swing thought I ever encountered.  I have the full version on the book my shelf and still re-read sections of it often.  

Modern Bag:  :ping-small: G410 LST 10.5*, Hzrdus Smoke RDX 6.5 Flex;   :titelist-small:  915F 3w, Diamana S+ 70 S flex;  Snake Eyes 18* 2h, 23* 4h & 27* 5h; :mizuno-small: JPX 900 Forged 6 - PW, PX LZ 6.0;  Edison 2.0 49*, 53*, 57* KBS Tour 120 S;   :ping-small:  Heppler Fetch;  Ball - :Snell: MTB-X; Bag - Jones MyGolfSpy Edition! 

Shot Scope H4, MG600 Rangefinder

Classic Bag:  Driver - :wilson_staff_small: Persimmon; 3w - :Hogan: Speed Slot; 5w - :wilson_staff_small: Tour Block; 3 - pw - :wilson_staff_small: Dynapower; sw - Ram Tom Watson;  putter - bullseye standard or flange.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Riverboat said:

Certainly the proper starting point, and for those with decent eye hand coordination and the natural athletic ability to reasonably mimic a golf swing (they are on TV all the time), all some players will really need. Maintaining proper posture throughout the swing will take care of many of the other issues mentioned. Throw in teaching a correct slot at the top and many more are now good to go. We are talking full swing here. Short game requires drills and practice.

How much you need an instructor or coach for all of this will vary from player to player based on how they prefer to learn and natural ability. Maybe I'm just a very independent person, but I always wanted to, as Ben Hogan said, "dig it out of the dirt" for myself as much as possible. Too much/ constant reliance on an instructor or coach to answer every question, in my opinion, severely hampers developing feel and the ability to adapt to unusual and new circumstances. I have a friend who is always asking, "now on that type of shot, are you opening and closing the blade with your hands or just taking it back and through with your shoulders?" and similar things. I don't mind the questions, but my honest answer is usually "I have no idea. I feel the shot and hit it." I'll then rehit it and try to talk him through it, but it would be better for him if he would just figure it out on his own by watching and mimicing... and not overthinking everything all the time... which those who are overtaught seem to do way too often. 

There is always an element of figuring it out yourself,  but by leveraging coaching and/or instruction a player can possibly develop faster.   you even acknowledge in the quoted post that people learn differently and need different things. I am not advocating receiving a lesson every day, as time should be taken to practice independently to figure things out.  We both agree on that.    I also agree with you on answering the questions of your friend; you have ingrained feels through repetition and probably don’t know what you did because it is instinct and you really don’t know because you aren’t an instructor.  But it sounds like he needs and wants instruction;  why not just tell him to go read the Hogan book and use his actual quote that the “secret is in the dirt”. 

you advocate the Hogan book a lot and I have read it.  What I got out of that book was minimal if anything.  We could also go down the road that it teaches a specific swing that may not be beneficial for most golfers.   I could state that just reading a book and tying to learn the swing is what slows golfers down on the golf courses,  it that is an opinion just like you opinion is that people are over taught.  I could easily say your approach is an oversimplification.  We could look beyond golf and look at anything,  people that want to get better will generally get there faster with instruction instead of being self taught.   

There are many ways to learn to play the game and no one way works for everyone.  But let’s go back to the original post.  All you are talking about in this thread is instruction; basically how to swing the club.   Coaching is far more than that as discussed in the video in post 1.  Let’s go back to questions that you never answered and your comments on players that continually get angry on the course.  Where do you learn “how” to play golf and realistic expectations for you shots.  You can learn those things over many years by experimenting and trying different things.  You can listen to the unrealistic information passed along by golf commentators and pros during interviews.  You can do multiple experiments on the course on what works on a particular hole.  Or you can find a coach that can help you better understand strategy on how to play better.

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15*  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :titleist-small: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite
Putter:   :taylormade-small:TM-180

Testing:   SPGC_logo.jpg

Backups:  :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, :seemore-small: mFGP2, :cameron-small: Futura 5W

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Riverboat said:

Greatest golf book ever, IMHO. And yes, he spends over 1/2 the book on grip and posture. Throw in the swing plane images and it's pure gold. I have to admit, however, that when he starts with the minutiae of supination, sequencing, etc, I glossed over and figured that out by doing. Focusing on all those individual moves is where it becomes overinstruction for me. Trying to hit all those positions, all in the proper sequence, is a recipe for developing a swing like Charles Barkley had a few years back. 

Agreed - IMO the Hogan book goes way too far.  That's where live instruction would be necessary if you wanted to advance your game to that sort of level.  Back to a point that you made earlier I noticed that you mentioned you had to teach your players course management while they played for you.  Very few players played in High School - I didn't, I was playing baseball, I had to learn course management from watching and from reading books - during my lifetime theories about course management have significantly changed as well although I'm not convinced that those changes are always applicable for the average player.

 

I don't see it as over kill that a player would seek out a coach to help with managing his game - it's not a longtime relationship, it's a couple of lessons, the first assesses the player's game and the second demonstrates how to take that game to the course.

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...