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I would say I could use a little of both coach and instructor. I would love to learn how to hit a draw for the added distance vs my slight fade. I’d also like to learn how to work the ball more. Truth be told I play game improvement irons and am a single digit handicap. My guess is a coach is more aimed toward scoring, at least for myself so I would guess he would tell me to stick to my gear and maximize my potential vs getting more workable sets of clubs. I think a instructor would teach me how to work the ball and fix a few shortcomings that I want even though it’s probably not really needed. I keep the ball in play and have solid striking abilities. So I guess if I could find an instructor who could help with more on course vs training facility type work

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I had always thought of my instructor as both.  Certainly my last two have offered on course playing lessons which would seem to be similar to "coaching."  I'm in the camp of always trying to improve - I'm at that age where if I don't I'm going to head in the wrong direction pretty quickly - certainly I need to learn how to fit what I'm capable of into the course that lies ahead of me in the fewest strokes possible. 

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8 minutes ago, revkev said:

I had always thought of my instructor as both.  Certainly my last two have offered on course playing lessons which would seem to be similar to "coaching."  I'm in the camp of always trying to improve - I'm at that age where if I don't I'm going to head in the wrong direction pretty quickly - certainly I need to learn how to fit what I'm capable of into the course that lies ahead of me in the fewest strokes possible. 

I think they can definitely be both; there are times where players need instruction and others where they need coaching.  

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12 minutes ago, revkev said:

I'm at that age where if I don't I'm going to head in the wrong direction pretty quickly - certainly I need to learn how to fit what I'm capable of into the course that lies ahead of me in the fewest strokes possible. 

Good thinking, Rev, and admirable dedication as well.

I've opted for heading in the opposite direction, one,  because it's really easy to do,

and two, because I'm beyond the age of seeking out difficult projects!😎

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On 11/28/2021 at 6:07 PM, cnosil said:

I have problems that I can't solve myself 🙂.  I use an instructor to help me with the fundamentals of the swing.   I use a coach to help me effectively get around a course and have realistic expectations on shot results.    Don't worry,  I am not a slow player and don't analyze my swing every moment I am on the course.     IMO,  I do agree that there are some people on this forum that overdo it when it comes to switching equipment and instructors and I mock them some but at the end of the day it is their choice on how they want to enjoy the game. 

According to the Illinois golf association. Averaging 4-5 rounds a year is avid. Which I concur is more than efficient for getting ones game in good standings.

Not sure about online forum golf (which appears to be all fields of beautiful roses). But in real life.. lessons really haven’t helped many amateurs besides the basics of the game. Proper grip , alignment , and a posture that allows one to make contact with the ball. These videos that I watch from top instructors are extremely futile. Who has the time or effort for practicing hours upon hours fixing swing faults that may have been ingrained for decades. The dedication I’m sure is there. But come on now folks … it’s really ludicrous. Whatever happened to swing your swing ? I think knowing the ball flight laws and a basic under of physics is all ones need. And ball flight laws has been around since the invention of this game. Boy some of you are lost : and not sounding harsh. But wake up 

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17 minutes ago, Goober said:

According to the Illinois golf association. Averaging 4-5 rounds a year is avid. Which I concur is more than efficient for getting ones game in good standings.

Not sure about online forum golf (which appears to be all fields of beautiful roses). But in real life.. lessons really haven’t helped many amateurs besides the basics of the game. Proper grip , alignment , and a posture that allows one to make contact with the ball. These videos that I watch from top instructors are extremely futile. Who has the time or effort for practicing hours upon hours fixing swing faults that may have been ingrained for decades. The dedication I’m sure is there. But come on now folks … it’s really ludicrous. Whatever happened to swing your swing ? I think knowing the ball flight laws and a basic under of physics is all ones need. And ball flight laws has been around since the invention of this game. Boy some of you are lost : and not sounding harsh. But wake up 

Okay, you're an avid golfer.  

Maybe I am the exception, but lessons have helped me beyond the grip, alignment, and posture aspect.    I and most others on the forum am not advocating for players to pick and watch golf tips.   People make time for whatever they want and if it is working on their golf swing why should you care?   I haven't seen anyone here advocating for people to rebuild their entire swing but if they want to do that why does it matter?  Some people on the forum are working on those basics; others are working on things beyond the basics.  It appears you are looking at the extremes and really aren't open to discussions about this game.   Yes the concept of balls flight laws has been around since the invention of the game;  but they were wrong about them and had to fix them based on new discoveries.    

 

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24 minutes ago, Goober said:

According to the Illinois golf association. Averaging 4-5 rounds a year is avid. Which I concur is more than efficient for getting ones game in good standings.

Not sure about online forum golf (which appears to be all fields of beautiful roses). But in real life.. lessons really haven’t helped many amateurs besides the basics of the game. Proper grip , alignment , and a posture that allows one to make contact with the ball. These videos that I watch from top instructors are extremely futile. Who has the time or effort for practicing hours upon hours fixing swing faults that may have been ingrained for decades. The dedication I’m sure is there. But come on now folks … it’s really ludicrous. Whatever happened to swing your swing ? I think knowing the ball flight laws and a basic under of physics is all ones need. And ball flight laws has been around since the invention of this game. Boy some of you are lost : and not sounding harsh. But wake up 

Glad that I don’t live in Illinois. 🙂

 

In all seriousness if you are content with your game, great. But recognize that others aren’t, they wish to do better or even for them the pursuit of being better  misguided or not, is what’s fun.

You are very unlikely to change anyone’s mind by launching attacks.

And I happen to agree about the you tube video stuff - the guy doesn’t know my physical capabilities or swing type - following his advice may cause more harm than good.  But that’s me, some swear by that style of learning - good for them. 

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53 minutes ago, Goober said:

According to the Illinois golf association. Averaging 4-5 rounds a year is avid. Which I concur is more than efficient for getting ones game in good standings.

Not sure about online forum golf (which appears to be all fields of beautiful roses). But in real life.. lessons really haven’t helped many amateurs besides the basics of the game. Proper grip , alignment , and a posture that allows one to make contact with the ball. These videos that I watch from top instructors are extremely futile. Who has the time or effort for practicing hours upon hours fixing swing faults that may have been ingrained for decades. The dedication I’m sure is there. But come on now folks … it’s really ludicrous. Whatever happened to swing your swing ? I think knowing the ball flight laws and a basic under of physics is all ones need. And ball flight laws has been around since the invention of this game. Boy some of you are lost : and not sounding harsh. But wake up 

There a lot of golfers across golf forums,  Facebook groups and other social media platforms including myself that will disagree that lessons haven’t helped anyone and definitely disagree they haven’t significantly helped anyone.

I went from a 20+ handicap to a single digit handicap in about 2 years from lessons and they were far more than the basics of grip, alignment and posture. 

Those who want to get better will make the time to spend hours practicing and getting lessons which is no different than anyone trying to get better at anything. I played golf, practiced golf, workers 8-10 hours days, hit the gym and played baseball 2x/week. I know several others who had similar lifestyles 

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28 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

There a lot of golfers across golf forums,  Facebook groups and other social media platforms including myself that will disagree that lessons haven’t helped anyone and definitely disagree they haven’t significantly helped anyone.

I went from a 20+ handicap to a single digit handicap in about 2 years from lessons and they were far more than the basics of grip, alignment and posture. 

Those who want to get better will make the time to spend hours practicing and getting lessons which is no different than anyone trying to get better at anything. I played golf, practiced golf, workers 8-10 hours days, hit the gym and played baseball 2x/week. I know several others who had similar lifestyles 

I'm not attacking, arguing, or trolling, just sharing a few thoughts. If you worked as hard as you say you did for those 2 years, my guess is you would have improved rather drastically with the instruction you received, with instruction on just the basics, and even with no instruction at all. I don't know what the state of your game was when you started this process, whether you were a beginner, an occasional golfer, or someone who had worked that hard for years with no instruction and no improvement. Only in the last case could we reasonably assume that the instruction made the difference. 

I am certainly not anti- instruction, as I coached golf for 25 years. But I do believe, based on all those years, and on my observation of friends and acquaintances, that over- instruction is just as common (maybe more so) as too little instruction (to say nothing of bad instruction, which is remarkably common). I find that most players get bogged down in detail when taken much beyond the basics. Believe me, I have seen many naturally talented players destroyed by trying to be technically perfect. Any of you remember Bobby Clampett?

Now there are exceptions to this, as there are with everything. I'm sure there are players out there who respond well to constant tinkering, but the extended droughts of naturally beautiful players like Rory McIlroy and Ricky Fowler are I think examples of what I'm talking about. The results can be even more profound with amateurs who don't have the natural physical ability to at least keep their game in reasonably good shape. All I'm saying is caution is in order when taking a deep dive into instruction, and most of us reach a point where no amount of instruction will keep us improving. If this weren't the case, there would be far more plus handicaps on the links. 

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3 minutes ago, Riverboat said:

I'm not attacking, arguing, or trolling, just sharing a few thoughts. If you worked as hard as you say you did for those 2 years, my guess is you would have improved rather drastically with the instruction you received, with instruction on just the basics, and even with no instruction at all. I don't know what the state of your game was when you started this process, whether you were a beginner, an occasional golfer, or someone who had worked that hard for years with no instruction and no improvement. Only in the last case could we reasonably assume that the instruction made the difference. 

I am certainly not anti- instruction, as I coached golf for 25 years. But I do believe, based on all those years, and on my observation of friends and acquaintances, that over- instruction is just as common (maybe more so) as too little instruction (to say nothing of bad instruction, which is remarkably common). I find that most players get bogged down in detail when taken much beyond the basics. Believe me, I have seen many naturally talented players destroyed by trying to be technically perfect. Any of you remember Bobby Clampett?

Now there are exceptions to this, as there are with everything. I'm sure there are players out there who respond well to constant tinkering, but the extended droughts of naturally beautiful players like Rory McIlroy and Ricky Fowler are I think examples of what I'm talking about. The results can be even more profound with amateurs who don't have the natural physical ability to at least keep their game in reasonably good shape. All I'm saying is caution is in order when taking a deep dive into instruction, and most of us reach a point where no amount of instruction will keep us improving. If this weren't the case, there would be far more plus handicaps on the links. 

So wouldn’t that point to the need for more coaches?  People who are able to say, “Heres how you take what you have and shoot the best scores possible?” 
 

That seems to be the question the OP was getting at. 

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17 minutes ago, Riverboat said:

If you worked as hard as you say you did for those 2 years, my guess is you would have improved rather drastically with the instruction you received, with instruction on just the basics, and even with no instruction at all. I don't know what the state of your game was when you started this process, whether you were a beginner, an occasional golfer, or someone who had worked that hard for years with no instruction and no improvement. Only in the last case could we reasonably assume that the instruction made the difference. 

I played frequently for years but was just one more activity I did with coworkers along with the various military sports leagues I played in throughout the year. My swing was self taught and my baseball skills let me him the ball decently. I decided to take lessons to improve my game and my swing. 
 

My lessons were far more coaching than pure instruction. I was also learning about the swing so that I could self diagnose and correct during a round.

17 minutes ago, Riverboat said:

I am certainly not anti- instruction, as I coached golf for 25 years.

 

no offense but coaching high school golf IMO is a lot different than giving lessons on a daily basis for a living. I had and have seen numerous high school coaches in various sports that knew less about the game they coached than they student athlete. Or that the basics is all the really know and can’t dive into actually coaching and improving an athlete. Not saying thats you but what I’ve seen in high school coaching during my school years and in some of what I’ve seen throughout the years including with some of the younger athletes I’ve played sports with over the last 30 years.

17 minutes ago, Riverboat said:

I find that most players get bogged down in detail when taken much beyond the basics. Believe me, I have seen many naturally talented players destroyed by trying to be technically perfect. Any of you remember Bobby Clampett?

Now there are exceptions to this, as there are with everything. I'm sure there are players out there who respond well to constant tinkering, but the extended droughts of naturally beautiful players like Rory McIlroy and Ricky Fowler are I think examples of what I'm talking about. The results can be even more profound with amateurs who don't have the natural physical ability to at least keep their game in reasonably good shape.

This is more on the instructor than the student, but some blame on the student for not communicating with the instructor. A good instructor is going to understand how and to what a student responds to, what gets them stuck and how to get out of it. It’s also an area I think has improved in instruction over the last 5-7 years where instructors are developing their skills and understanding that each lesson doesn’t have to be tinkering and trying new stuff but continuing to work on a move/feel/drill to help the student reinforce the aspect they are trying to improve but also many are getting away from doing full on swing work during the lesson and having the student out the swing work to the test under pressure by hitting golf shots. That could be using the various tools on launch monitors like trackman academy or some of the practice tools or using the range to hit to targets or working on ball flight up and down or playing fades and draws. 
 

But what you’ve at is why the thread was started and what the video is about 

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36 minutes ago, revkev said:

So wouldn’t that point to the need for more coaches?  People who are able to say, “Heres how you take what you have and shoot the best scores possible?” 
 

That seems to be the question the OP was getting at. 

Maybe I just assume that adults should be able to figure that out for themselves. Probably a silly assumption. 

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17 minutes ago, Riverboat said:

Maybe I just assume that adults should be able to figure that out for themselves. Probably a silly assumption. 

Players should be able to figure out effective strategy by themselves?     The process of learning isn't something that is always done independently from other people.  PGA professionals constantly work on how improving their strategy and leverage coaches to help them.   Yes,  you can figure out how to play,  but how do you know it is the best/right way?  How long will it take you to build that knowledge?

 

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26 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

 

no offense but coaching high school golf IMO is a lot different than giving lessons on a daily basis for a living. I had and have seen numerous high school coaches in various sports that knew less about the game they coached than they student athlete. Or that the basics is all the really know and can’t dive into actually coaching and improving an athlete. Not saying thats you but what I’ve seen in high school coaching during my school years and in some of what I’ve seen throughout the years including with some of the younger athletes I’ve played sports with over the last 30 years.

No offense taken and no doubt that you are correct that there is a huge difference. I coached at a school where kids came in as freshmen with no experience and nearly always shooting way above 100. With instruction on the basics, focus on short game, and making sure they all had fun, if they worked at it they would be around 80 by the time they graduated, sometimes lower. I worked with them constantly on course management and managing their composure. As I said above, I am very possibly wrong in assuming that adults should be able to manage that last part on their own. 

I always had some kids who got additional instruction from local pros, some responded well to it, others lost their game completely when they would get "lost in the weeds" of technical aspects of the swing. I guess that's where my cautious attitude comes from. 

Sometimes I wish I had coached at one of those schools where I could have just cut anyone who couldn't shoot in the 70s, but 6 of my previous players are now club pros, several more are now high school coaches themselves, and many more are very good recreational players, and almost none of them could break 100 as freshmen,  so all in all, I'm glad I was where I was. 

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This is probably a separate thread but I am truly curious what constitutes "the basics" when it comes to a golf lesson. 

Is it keep your eye on the ball or is it keep your weight inside your trail foot or is it shaft lean & hit down on the ball with your irons (and even fairway woods depending on your lie) and have a positive angle of attack on the driver or does it include teaching somebody to properly set their wrists or is it teaching somebody how to read the grain on the green or is it turn don't sway or weight transfer or teaching someone how to bump and run with an 8 iron rather than grabbing for a wedge 100% of the time around the green, or how to play for ball flight tendencies off different slopes, or.......? 

Or do some of these get past "the basics" and into over instruction? 

 

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3 minutes ago, Shapotomous said:

This is probably a separate thread but I am truly curious what constitutes "the basics" when it comes to a golf lesson. 

Is it keep your eye on the ball or is it keep your weight inside your trail foot or is it shaft lean & hit down on the ball with your irons (and even fairway woods depending on your lie) and have a positive angle of attack on the driver or does it include teaching somebody to properly set their wrists or is it teaching somebody how to read the grain on the green or is it turn don't sway or weight transfer or teaching someone how to bump and run with an 8 iron rather than grabbing for a wedge 100% of the time around the green, or how to play for ball flight tendencies off different slopes, or.......? 

Or do some of these get past "the basics" and into over instruction? 

 

The "basics" seem to be grip, posture, and alignment.

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7 minutes ago, cnosil said:

The "basics" seem to be grip, posture, and alignment.

Hogans book covers those items but also gets well beyond them and that was held up as a standard for instruction so I wondered where exactly the "basics" line should be drawn.  I learned a lot by reading the condensed version that was included with the purchase of a dozen Hogan balls back in the 70's.  The image of having your arms wrapped in an ace bandage holding the triangle was the most influential swing thought I ever encountered.  I have the full version on the book my shelf and still re-read sections of it often.  

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Classic Bag:  Driver - :wilson_staff_small: Persimmon; 3w - :Hogan: Speed Slot; 5w - :wilson_staff_small: Tour Block; 3 - pw - :wilson_staff_small: Dynapower; sw - Ram Tom Watson;  putter - bullseye standard or flange.

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21 minutes ago, cnosil said:

The "basics" seem to be grip, posture, and alignment.

Certainly the proper starting point, and for those with decent eye hand coordination and the natural athletic ability to reasonably mimic a golf swing (they are on TV all the time), all some players will really need. Maintaining proper posture throughout the swing will take care of many of the other issues mentioned. Throw in teaching a correct slot at the top and many more are now good to go. We are talking full swing here. Short game requires drills and practice.

How much you need an instructor or coach for all of this will vary from player to player based on how they prefer to learn and natural ability. Maybe I'm just a very independent person, but I always wanted to, as Ben Hogan said, "dig it out of the dirt" for myself as much as possible. Too much/ constant reliance on an instructor or coach to answer every question, in my opinion, severely hampers developing feel and the ability to adapt to unusual and new circumstances. I have a friend who is always asking, "now on that type of shot, are you opening and closing the blade with your hands or just taking it back and through with your shoulders?" and similar things. I don't mind the questions, but my honest answer is usually "I have no idea. I feel the shot and hit it." I'll then rehit it and try to talk him through it, but it would be better for him if he would just figure it out on his own by watching and mimicing... and not overthinking everything all the time... which those who are overtaught seem to do way too often. 

😧 Wilson Triton

3w: PXG 341

5W: Cleveland launcher 

3H: Wilson Deep Red

5-GW: PXG 0211

SW LW: Mizuno MP T5

P: Scott Cameron Newport

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39 minutes ago, Shapotomous said:

Hogans book covers those items but also gets well beyond them and that was held up as a standard for instruction so I wondered where exactly the "basics" line should be drawn.  I learned a lot by reading the condensed version that was included with the purchase of a dozen Hogan balls back in the 70's.  The image of having your arms wrapped in an ace bandage holding the triangle was the most influential swing thought I ever encountered.  I have the full version on the book my shelf and still re-read sections of it often.  

Greatest golf book ever, IMHO. And yes, he spends over 1/2 the book on grip and posture. Throw in the swing plane images and it's pure gold. I have to admit, however, that when he starts with the minutiae of supination, sequencing, etc, I glossed over and figured that out by doing. Focusing on all those individual moves is where it becomes overinstruction for me. Trying to hit all those positions, all in the proper sequence, is a recipe for developing a swing like Charles Barkley had a few years back. 

😧 Wilson Triton

3w: PXG 341

5W: Cleveland launcher 

3H: Wilson Deep Red

5-GW: PXG 0211

SW LW: Mizuno MP T5

P: Scott Cameron Newport

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9 hours ago, Riverboat said:

Certainly the proper starting point, and for those with decent eye hand coordination and the natural athletic ability to reasonably mimic a golf swing (they are on TV all the time), all some players will really need. Maintaining proper posture throughout the swing will take care of many of the other issues mentioned. Throw in teaching a correct slot at the top and many more are now good to go. We are talking full swing here. Short game requires drills and practice.

How much you need an instructor or coach for all of this will vary from player to player based on how they prefer to learn and natural ability. Maybe I'm just a very independent person, but I always wanted to, as Ben Hogan said, "dig it out of the dirt" for myself as much as possible. Too much/ constant reliance on an instructor or coach to answer every question, in my opinion, severely hampers developing feel and the ability to adapt to unusual and new circumstances. I have a friend who is always asking, "now on that type of shot, are you opening and closing the blade with your hands or just taking it back and through with your shoulders?" and similar things. I don't mind the questions, but my honest answer is usually "I have no idea. I feel the shot and hit it." I'll then rehit it and try to talk him through it, but it would be better for him if he would just figure it out on his own by watching and mimicing... and not overthinking everything all the time... which those who are overtaught seem to do way too often. 

There is always an element of figuring it out yourself,  but by leveraging coaching and/or instruction a player can possibly develop faster.   you even acknowledge in the quoted post that people learn differently and need different things. I am not advocating receiving a lesson every day, as time should be taken to practice independently to figure things out.  We both agree on that.    I also agree with you on answering the questions of your friend; you have ingrained feels through repetition and probably don’t know what you did because it is instinct and you really don’t know because you aren’t an instructor.  But it sounds like he needs and wants instruction;  why not just tell him to go read the Hogan book and use his actual quote that the “secret is in the dirt”. 

you advocate the Hogan book a lot and I have read it.  What I got out of that book was minimal if anything.  We could also go down the road that it teaches a specific swing that may not be beneficial for most golfers.   I could state that just reading a book and tying to learn the swing is what slows golfers down on the golf courses,  it that is an opinion just like you opinion is that people are over taught.  I could easily say your approach is an oversimplification.  We could look beyond golf and look at anything,  people that want to get better will generally get there faster with instruction instead of being self taught.   

There are many ways to learn to play the game and no one way works for everyone.  But let’s go back to the original post.  All you are talking about in this thread is instruction; basically how to swing the club.   Coaching is far more than that as discussed in the video in post 1.  Let’s go back to questions that you never answered and your comments on players that continually get angry on the course.  Where do you learn “how” to play golf and realistic expectations for you shots.  You can learn those things over many years by experimenting and trying different things.  You can listen to the unrealistic information passed along by golf commentators and pros during interviews.  You can do multiple experiments on the course on what works on a particular hole.  Or you can find a coach that can help you better understand strategy on how to play better.

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Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15* set  to 16.5* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
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