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KBS vs Project X


JFish350
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I bought new clubs and had KBS Tour 130 shaft that I was fitted for but not using the clubs I going to purchase.  After I got them the ball flight seemed very high and I felt I was losing a club length of distance. I went to another fitter and again not using the clubs I bought as we couldn't swap shafts and they don't carry my clubs They suggested Project X 6.5 LS 1250.

Is this going to make a difference in ball flight being a little lower and getting the distance back? Or are they about the same shaft and I should make this work?  I can make them work just fine but it sits in the back of my head when I deciding on club choice. 

This all said I am a 15 HDCP trending down and not sure  it will make that big of difference. 

 

Thanks for any help/info? 

Jeremy 

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Epic GBB driver 10.5 turned down to 9.5 Hzruds 6.5 smoke shaft. 

Titleist U15 1 iron 

Sub 70 699 Pro 4-AW 

Sub 70 3 utility 19*

Callaway 56 and 58 wedge. 

OG White Hot #1 putter

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52 minutes ago, JFish350 said:

I bought new clubs and had KBS Tour 130 shaft that I was fitted for but not using the clubs I going to purchase.  After I got them the ball flight seemed very high and I felt I was losing a club length of distance. I went to another fitter and again not using the clubs I bought as we couldn't swap shafts and they don't carry my clubs They suggested Project X 6.5 LS 1250.

Is this going to make a difference in ball flight being a little lower and getting the distance back? Or are they about the same shaft and I should make this work?  I can make them work just fine but it sits in the back of my head when I deciding on club choice. 

This all said I am a 15 HDCP trending down and not sure  it will make that big of difference. 

 

Thanks for any help/info? 

Jeremy 

After reading your post it seems like a lot of unknowns and based on my reading:

  • you were fit to a set but bought something different than recommended. same shaft different head
  • you feel the ball height is too high and you feel like you are losing distance. No numbers or measurements to confirm this.  
  • You went to another fitting  but didn’t bring the clubs you were using to compare so you still have no measurement.

first, going to different fitters will probably result in different configurations.  Fitters have their preferences and get to goals differently.    The shaft works based on how you respond to it so we really can’t tell you if it will make any difference.  It could result on a lower flight or it could be the same or higher.   

what sits in the back of your head?   You have a club that you were fit into and you should know how far you hit each club.  

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Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15* set  to 16.5* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 816H1 19* set at 18* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  21*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 5-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :callaway-small: 54-10S   :cleveland-small: 588  58-12
Putter:  logo-horizontal-black.svg Directed Force 2.1

Backups:  :bobby-grace-1: 6330, :taylormade-small:TM-180, :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, Bellum Winmore 787, :seemore-small: mFGP2

 

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

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3 minutes ago, cnosil said:

After reading your post it seems like a lot of unknowns and based on my reading:

  • you were fit to a set but bought something different than recommended. same shaft different head
  • you feel the ball height is too high and you feel like you are losing distance. No numbers or measurements to confirm this.  
  • You went to another fitting  but didn’t bring the clubs you were using to compare so you still have no measurement.

first, going to different fitters will probably result in different configurations.  Fitters have their preferences and get to goals differently.    The shaft works based on how you respond to it so we really can’t tell you if it will make any difference.  It could result on a lower flight or it could be the same or higher.   

what sits in the back of your head?   You have a club that you were fit into and you should know how far you hit each club.  

A few more details that may help. 

I went through the fitting process a few times.  First time I was fit ( Golf Tech) for Mizzuno 921 Hot metal pro, I think it was 921. I apologize as I don't remember which shafts they fit me into. Second time I was fit (Private CC)  for T200's which I loved and the shaft they suggested was the KBS Tour 130. Both sets where $1400 plus 3 thru AW.  I kept looking as spending that much is a hard pill to swallow and really hard to hide from the wife which isn't an option. I can across Sub 70 on this site, checked them out, demo'd a few clubs and decided on them and went with the KBS shafts. I paid $850 for 3 hybrid and 4 iron -AW.  I love the sub 70's and feel I made the right choice even with the ball fight being higher which is I believe the reason for the lost distance. 

When I got the clubs and the ball flight was high I went to another fitter closer to home with trackman. I did take my Sub70 clubs but they obviously don't carry them. Ironically He used Mizuno 921 hot metal  pro's. He opinion was that the ball flight was the issue as the Mizuno was  10-12 yards longer with a lower ball flight. Both Mizuno and Sub70 were consistent in ball flight and dispersion. Mizuno 7 iron was avg 180 and Sub70 avg 165. Now when I demo'd the sub70 If i remember the shaft was a KBS 125 stiff shaft and the sub 70 6 iron avg  was 189. Maybe my perception is different than what it should be, but my main concern is the height of the ball. Living in Oregon its common to loose a ball as it plugs into the soft ground. 

Not sure if any of this helps or is more confusing. 

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Epic GBB driver 10.5 turned down to 9.5 Hzruds 6.5 smoke shaft. 

Titleist U15 1 iron 

Sub 70 699 Pro 4-AW 

Sub 70 3 utility 19*

Callaway 56 and 58 wedge. 

OG White Hot #1 putter

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So basically you went with a shaft you were fitted for but swapped the iron heads? Which sub 70 iron did you go with?

:ping-small: G425 LST 10.5 Aldilla Rogue White 70s

:titelist-small: TS3 15.5 3W Fuji Speeder Tour Spec

:titelist-small: 818 H1 19deg Hybrid Fuji Atmos White

:mizuno-small: JPX 921 Hot Metal 4-PW Nippon Modus 120s

:vokey-small: SM8 50,54, and 58deg Dynamic Gold Wedge Flex

:taylormade-small:Spider Tour Putter

Vice Pro Plus White or Titleist ProV1x

:ping-small: Hoofer Stand Bag

:CaddyTek: V8 3 Wheel Push Cart

:callaway-small: 300 PRO Rangefinder

Official Nippon Regio B+ Driver Shaft Review

 

 

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18 minutes ago, JFish350 said:

A few more details that may help. 

Definitely helps.   
 

Based on marketing material the project X might be lower launching, but it is impossible to really compare marketing material.  One companies low is another’s mid.  
 

the Mizuno’s are lower lofted by a couple of degrees and designed for distance.   the 699 pros are probably a little closer to a players irons category.  This probably makes the pros launch higher and spin a little more resulting in your distance variance. 
 

from a fitting perspective both clubs are probably good fits.  Your discussion about wanting to launch lower due to course conditions may have prompted the shaft change.  
 

So based on your goals, the project X shafts might give you better results.  Hard to tell if there would be any actual improvements without trying them since I am guessing you want to reshaft the Sub70 irons 

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Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15* set  to 16.5* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 816H1 19* set at 18* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  21*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 5-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :callaway-small: 54-10S   :cleveland-small: 588  58-12
Putter:  logo-horizontal-black.svg Directed Force 2.1

Backups:  :bobby-grace-1: 6330, :taylormade-small:TM-180, :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, Bellum Winmore 787, :seemore-small: mFGP2

 

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

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12 minutes ago, RollingGreens said:

So basically you went with a shaft you were fitted for but swapped the iron heads? Which sub 70 iron did you go with?

Kinda sorta did that. I went through the Demo program Sub 70 has, but yes I went with a different shaft and head combo than I could try out. 

I went with 699 Pro's. I love them. 

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Epic GBB driver 10.5 turned down to 9.5 Hzruds 6.5 smoke shaft. 

Titleist U15 1 iron 

Sub 70 699 Pro 4-AW 

Sub 70 3 utility 19*

Callaway 56 and 58 wedge. 

OG White Hot #1 putter

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13 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Definitely helps.   
 

Based on marketing material the project X might be lower launching, but it is impossible to really compare marketing material.  One companies low is another’s mid.  
 

the Mizuno’s are lower lofted by a couple of degrees and designed for distance.   the 699 pros are probably a little closer to a players irons category.  This probably makes the pros launch higher and spin a little more resulting in your distance variance. 
 

from a fitting perspective both clubs are probably good fits.  Your discussion about wanting to launch lower due to course conditions may have prompted the shaft change.  
 

So based on your goals, the project X shafts might give you better results.  Hard to tell if there would be any actual improvements without trying them since I am guessing you want to reshaft the Sub70 irons 

Thank you for the info and help. I knew you would be the one to answer this question when I typed it out. 

I have always had a higher ball flight. When I started golf my learning was done in AZ where a higher ball is fine to hold the greens better. Now living in Oregon plugged golf balls are common and losing some of those is frustrating. 

I do want a different shaft that will give a lower launching ball flight. I just don't know if it will make that big of a difference. 

  • Like 2

Epic GBB driver 10.5 turned down to 9.5 Hzruds 6.5 smoke shaft. 

Titleist U15 1 iron 

Sub 70 699 Pro 4-AW 

Sub 70 3 utility 19*

Callaway 56 and 58 wedge. 

OG White Hot #1 putter

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Update:  In speaking/emailing with Cody at Sub70, I am going to go into there facility this spring and have them fit me using their products.  Seems the best thing to do and the right way to get this fixed. Who knows maybe I'll end up with the same shaft. 

 

Thanks guys for the info. 

  • Like 4

Epic GBB driver 10.5 turned down to 9.5 Hzruds 6.5 smoke shaft. 

Titleist U15 1 iron 

Sub 70 699 Pro 4-AW 

Sub 70 3 utility 19*

Callaway 56 and 58 wedge. 

OG White Hot #1 putter

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Strange, I am an old fart and I just got the Sub 70 699's with the UST SR shaft. I love the feel of the clubs, but I hit them really high and I am losing 10+ yards per club. I had the PXG 0311 with an ACCRA shaft

 

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Sub70 849D Driver

Ping G415 3 Wood

Callaway Epic 5 Wood

Ping G415 22* Hybrid

Sub70 699 irons

Aerotech Steel Fiber I70 graphite shafts an NO1 50 grips

Sub70 286 Forged wedges 54* and 60*

Evnroll ER2 putter...... whichever one is working that day on the practice green

True Pro Lux and True Links Knit shoes

 

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It’s never easy to put together combos on paper. Going through the fitting process showed me why it was important, looking at height, spin, and descent angles

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:ping-small: G425 LST 10.5 Aldilla Rogue White 70s

:titelist-small: TS3 15.5 3W Fuji Speeder Tour Spec

:titelist-small: 818 H1 19deg Hybrid Fuji Atmos White

:mizuno-small: JPX 921 Hot Metal 4-PW Nippon Modus 120s

:vokey-small: SM8 50,54, and 58deg Dynamic Gold Wedge Flex

:taylormade-small:Spider Tour Putter

Vice Pro Plus White or Titleist ProV1x

:ping-small: Hoofer Stand Bag

:CaddyTek: V8 3 Wheel Push Cart

:callaway-small: 300 PRO Rangefinder

Official Nippon Regio B+ Driver Shaft Review

 

 

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I'm a certified fitter and I tell customers the following...you cannot compare one brand of shaft to another by their specs. Flex differences and kick points are for that specific brand only to distinguish between their own models. You have to physically hit each shaft you are interested in, look at the launch monitor numbers (especially if your indoors), and make a decision based on your feel and the numbers. If you can be fitted outside, ex: a country club or demo day, all the better, as you can physically see your complete shot. Feel is so important, just like the look of an iron when you're deciding on what to buy. If you're not convertible with the head, shaft, and/or grip, don't buy it. Keep looking until you get the right combination.  

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Certified Club Fitter.

Ping G425 Max Driver 10.5° w/Diamona S+ LTD Blue-Board 70 R Flex

Ping G410 5 Fairway Wood Mitsubishi Tensi Orange R Flex

Ping G410 4-5-6 Hybrids Mitsubishi Tensi Blue R Flex

Ping i500 Irons 5-U w/Recoil SmacWrap F3 Flex (power-spec lofts)

Ping 3.0 Eye2 Glide Wedges 54°-58° w/Recoil SmacWrap F3 Flex

2021 Ping Fetch Putter

PING Pioneer Cart Bag

Lamkin Sonar+ Mid-Size Grips

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Hollow body construction like the sub70 699 pro, tends to lower the CG of the club and therefore pushes the launch angle up. Add that to lofts that are strong (compared to old time standards) but not as "jacked up" than most comparable sets and you have a recipe for a higher ball flight than with most comparable irons.

Now, lets be honest... there are not that many people who really need to bring the ball flight down (typically very high club head speed players who are in windy places with hard greens). If you need to keep the ball "low" on links-y courses, and hit it very fast, blades and small cavities may help... And ultimately you'll end up with a PX 6.0/6.5 (not LZ) or a DG X100 as these are the "kings of lower balls". If you really want KBS, that will be a C-taper. Rest of the market (and that's a big big part) would probably benefit from a higher ball, hence the popularity of the hollow heads. I mean, distance is fine and all, but with irons you don't want to be long, just consistent at the same yardage with the same club AND hold greens!

Edited by Franc38
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Aim small... pray to miss small

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When I go to my trusted fitter I usually stay with what he recommends.  It normally works out.  You are usually making a decision based on a seven iron and it does take a little while to break in a new set or irons.  I expect this and give the clubs a chance.  It is a team effort with myself and my fitter who has over 25 years experience with Titleist and I trust his experience and judgement.  I do not spin the ball and prefer height with my balls off my irons.  One thing we have worked with in my driver is height has brought me lower spin and greater distance and accuracy.  Am 75 and KBS and Project X shafts did not work for me at the fitting.  I went with the AMT Red shafts and can hit my 7 irons which everything seems to be based on, over 150.  Playing from the age appropriate tees, it works well for me.  Go with what your fitter recommends.  Seems wasteful not to use his advice, if he is certified and all that knowledge.  Just sayin'.  With respect.  I too am up to a 15 hdcp.  New greens and they are killing me.  Ten strokes harder.     

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DRIVER - TSI3 10.75* - Fujikura Speeder 661 TR S  

FAIRWAY - TSI2 16.5* - Fujikura Motore Speeder VC 6.1 S

HYBRID - 816H1 18.0* - Fujikura Motore Speeder HB 8.8 Tour Spec S

HYBRID - 818H1 21.0* - Fujikura Motore Speeder HB 8.8 Tour Spec S

IRONS - T300 (2019) - 5-W - True Temper AMT Red 107g-95gm R300

WEDGE - VOKEY SM9 - 52.08F, 56.10S - True Temper AMT Red 94gm R300                                         * GolfPride MC+4 Midsize Grips  (all woods/irons/wedges) 

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Jeremy,

You got a lot of advice here. I echo Chuck's advice to trust fitter and also work with what you have for some time to determine how to best use the clubs. I bought KBS C Taper 110 shafts to go with P790s. Very happy with them, but also still working on my swing -- which is the bigger variable in scoring than the shaft.

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Ping g410 LST

Titleist 917f2 5 wood

Titleist H1 21d hybrid

Titleist u100 4 iron

Ping i500 5 - PW

Vokey SM8 52, 56, 60

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You really NEED to check to loft of each of the 7 irons you are hitting. Some of today's irons have a lot less loft than they did a few years ago. My forged irons have 5 degrees MORE loft than a lot of what is being sold today. That means a lower ball flight and more distance with the new irons compared to my 15 year old clubs. Check the loft of those heads and then see if the numbers make more sense to you. The flex can make a big difference as well. For my swing, I hit a S flex shaft about 2-1/2 degrees higher launch angle than I do a R flex shaft iron. Could be the same for you or it might NOT, you need to demo both to see what works for YOU. 

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If you love the way the Sub70's feel then have them bent stronger a couple degrees to get the yardage you want.

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Modern Bag: :Sub70:  849 Pro 9*, Hazrdous Smoke S Flex;   :titelist-small:  915F 3w, Diamana S+ 70 S flex;  Snake Eyes 15*, & 23* Hybrids; :mizuno-small: JPX 900 Forged 5 - PW, PX LZ 6.0;  :cleveland-small: Tour Action 49*, 53*, 57*; PX LZ 6.5 ;  :ping-small: Heppler Fetch;  Ball - :Snell: MTB-Black; Bag - :1590477705_SunMountain: H2NO 

Classic Bag:  Driver - :wilson_staff_small: Persimmon; 3w - :Hogan: Speed Slot; 5w - :wilson_staff_small: Tour Block; 3 - pw - :wilson_staff_small: Dynapower; sw - Ram Tom Watson;  putter - bullseye standard or flange.

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14 hours ago, srvpoo said:

If you are a 15 handicap you are worrying  about way to much tech crap. Work on your swing weaknesses and when you get to a single digit then worry about that stuff !!

I agree with worrying to much about about tech stuff. Most of my extra strokes come from poor chipping and mediocre putting, This is my winter project. 

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Epic GBB driver 10.5 turned down to 9.5 Hzruds 6.5 smoke shaft. 

Titleist U15 1 iron 

Sub 70 699 Pro 4-AW 

Sub 70 3 utility 19*

Callaway 56 and 58 wedge. 

OG White Hot #1 putter

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