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Just to Confuse the Toe Hang Issue...


Middler
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Here's a YT video, using 3 Scotty Cameron models of varying toe hang/predicted rotation, in the hands of three very experienced players on Sam PuttLab. Even though all three know what to expect, their results simply don't align with predictions. Guess that points to getting fitted to see how the numbers stack up, or a case can be made for trusting your own judgement - if your stroke/arc is not a perfect predictor?

But the overriding lesson, if any, is limiting your choices to putters with toe hang to match your stroke arc may be a bad approach - I get the impression that's how many players (and fitters) proceed when buying a putter. You could be fitted for a sub-optimal putter if you don't consider putters with different toe hang/rotation?

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I was literally pondering this myself this morning. I’ve had a Scotty Newport in the past and it just didn’t work with my stroke even though the toe hang predictor was agreeable. 

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11 minutes ago, Middler said:

- if your stroke/arc is not a perfect predictor? Limiting your choices to putters with toe hang to match your stroke arc may be a bad approach?

 

From what I have learned from someone that spends their time coaching people on putting,   toe hang is a by product of a properly fit putter as there are more important variables that influence fit like hosel position, offset, weight, and even feel.   The various variables that comprise a putter influence how the putter opens and closes and how fast it rotates.   For example you can take the same putter and put in differing weights and you will alter its rotational performance.    Stroke arc is largely influenced by how close you stand to the ball.  stance and your use of the hands will influence how you need the putter to rotate.    

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16 minutes ago, RollingGreens said:

I was literally pondering this myself this morning. I’ve had a Scotty Newport in the past and it just didn’t work with my stroke even though the toe hang predictor was agreeable. 

For what it's worth, I'm using an ER5B which is NOT what my stroke arc would suggest I should be using. 

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1 minute ago, Middler said:

For what it's worth, I'm using an ER5B which is NOT what my stroke arc would suggest I should be using. More than a year in, I'm getting better results with it than the ER2 it replaced which was better suited to my stroke according to standard putter fitting principles.

I would say standard fitting procedures would be which putter enables you to best start the ball online and control distance.    Why would anything else be standard?

Looking at some players:  Tiger like to feel like he is hooking his putts so he leans toward putters that feel like they rotate closed a little faster.  Rory likes to hold off his putter stroke so he needs putters that don't rotate as fast.  

Like anything else,  you can do "static" type measurements as a starting point but you have to look at performance and how the club moves in your hands.  

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3 hours ago, cnosil said:

I would say standard fitting procedures would be which putter enables you to best start the ball online and control distance.    Why would anything else be standard?

Looking at some players:  Tiger like to feel like he is hooking his putts so he leans toward putters that feel like they rotate closed a little faster.  Rory likes to hold off his putter stroke so he needs putters that don't rotate as fast.  

Like anything else,  you can do "static" type measurements as a starting point but you have to look at performance and how the club moves in your hands.  

I’m not talking about the top 5% of players who may know as much or more than a qualified fitter (one here who usually argues from that perspective as if it’s universal), I’m talking about the other 95% with varying knowledge. Maybe I’m wrong but I get the impression many informal or even formal fittings use a players putting stroke arc, and then choose only from among the putters that are supposed to best suit that arc (I suspect many self fittings or online fitting tools do exactly that). For example, if Joe has a SBST stroke he might only look at face balanced putters. The video suggest that won’t always be a good approach? Joe might do better with a putter with some/more toe hang-rotation.

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2 minutes ago, Middler said:

Maybe I’m wrong but I get the impression many informal or even formal fittings use a players putting stroke arc, and then choose only from among the putters that are supposed to best suit that arc. For example, a player with a SBST stroke might only look at face balanced putters. The video suggest that won’t always be a good approach? The players might do better with a putter with some/more toe hang-rotation.

Yes, many do.  I would say they do that because putter fitting is actually hard and fitters generally aren't well trained....same problem as full swing.  I agree with the video,  toe hang isn't a good way to fit a putter.  Tools like SAM do provide some recommendations,  but you have to put the putter in the players hands to see how the player responds.   

 Here is a fitting for George Gankas where they look more at ball numbers using Quintic.   may be hard to watch as his personality is annoying;  try to focus on what the fitter is saying.  

 

 

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I've been going through a little trial and error with a few putters the last week or so in the basement on the 4' ruler drill.  I've been testing with face balanced and two different toe hang and there is a difference for me in how consistent I am able to get the ball to roll the entire 4' on the ruler.  My consistent miss is the ball will roll off the left side at about the 3' mark and this has been happening more with the face balance than the toe hang putters.  I've tried standard grip and cross handed and the results are the same between the two grip styles.  It has me wondering if I need to switch from my face balanced gamer, the Heppler fetch to a toe hang style. 

I have realized I am not doing myself any favors by practicing in the backyard with an Anser toe hang and then gaming a face balanced Fetch.  I will definitely match styles of putters I practice with and game from now on.

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2 hours ago, Shapotomous said:

I've been going through a little trial and error with a few putters the last week or so in the basement on the 4' ruler drill.  I've been testing with face balanced and two different toe hang and there is a difference for me in how consistent I am able to get the ball to roll the entire 4' on the ruler.  My consistent miss is the ball will roll off the left side at about the 3' mark and this has been happening more with the face balance than the toe hang putters.  I've tried standard grip and cross handed and the results are the same between the two grip styles.  It has me wondering if I need to switch from my face balanced gamer, the Heppler fetch to a toe hang style. 

I have realized I am not doing myself any favors by practicing in the backyard with an Anser toe hang and then gaming a face balanced Fetch.  I will definitely match styles of putters I practice with and game from now on.

Sounds like with the ruler you are going through a good process to find the right  putter.   This is how you can fit putters yourself.  Miss left,  find the combination that leaves the putter face a little more open.  You can even through some lead tape on the bottom to increase the weight and slow down the turn.  

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3 hours ago, Shapotomous said:

I've been going through a little trial and error with a few putters the last week or so in the basement on the 4' ruler drill.  I've been testing with face balanced and two different toe hang and there is a difference for me in how consistent I am able to get the ball to roll the entire 4' on the ruler.  My consistent miss is the ball will roll off the left side at about the 3' mark and this has been happening more with the face balance than the toe hang putters.  I've tried standard grip and cross handed and the results are the same between the two grip styles.  It has me wondering if I need to switch from my face balanced gamer, the Heppler fetch to a toe hang style. 

I have realized I am not doing myself any favors by practicing in the backyard with an Anser toe hang and then gaming a face balanced Fetch.  I will definitely match styles of putters I practice with and game from now on.

You could also try standing farther away from the ball or having the ball closer to the middle of your stance. My miss is also a pull from closing the face. A forward press can open the face for some players as well. I use a 3' ruler and perform much better when practicing my stroke on top of a putting arc as my "fault" is closing the face with an in to out stroke. 

But the ruler is only measuring start line which needs to be balanced with speed control and the type/weighting of putter that performs best in the area. If you can't get a 30' putt close to the hole, good start line will only help so much. 

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... Like almost everything in this wacky game, having the "correct" toe hang or face balance is simply a starting point. I know without toe hang my putter head wanders off line when I take it back because I have a gate stroke. Face balanced putters are terrible for my putting stroke. That said, I still putt with them in stores when new models are released just to confirm something in the balance of the putter hasn't been made that may accommodate my stroke. I usually stick with a putter for a long time so I have no plans on changing my Cleveland 11S as the balance and toe hang are better than any putters I have used to date.

... But getting back to the original thoughts, very few am's have absolutely repeatable strokes as well as anomaly's in the way they putt. Some have almost completely different putting strokes on long or short putts and more than a few have inadvertent putting stroke changes when faced with a birdie 🤪

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I will continue the ruler drill and experiment a bit.  I like the Fetch from an overall weight and alignment standpoint so I will try some lead tape on the toe area, hopefully to slow down the rotation and tame the left miss a bit. 

The last couple months made it painfully obvious that putting is something i need to practice a lot or I lose the stroke.  It went from being a strength during league play over the summer when i was putting a lot in the backyard to absolutely pitiful in the few rounds I played this fall.  I think I have it back under control again from the recent practice and last 18 I played.

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First, place a yard stick parallel to your stance. Set up with the putter head on the yard stick, and swing. On the back swing STOP. Look at the position of the head. Finish your follow thru and STOP. Look at the position of the head. There's your arc. Is it slight, medium, or heavy? Take some putters and practice shots. Which putter makes the most putts or comes the closest to the hole. Buy that putter.

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43 minutes ago, HDTVMAN said:

First, place a yard stick parallel to your stance. Set up with the putter head on the yard stick, and swing. On the back swing STOP. Look at the position of the head. Finish your follow thru and STOP. Look at the position of the head. There's your arc. Is it slight, medium, or heavy? Take some putters and practice shots. Which putter makes the most putts or comes the closest to the hole. Buy that putter.

What about the position are you looking at and what makes it slight/medium/heavy?    What distance are you hitting from?   IMO, While making putts is important and our goal it is probably better to assess grouping from various distance and not most makes.  

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I prefer the Lie Angle Balanced (LAB) putter myself.  Having said that, the putting stroke is definitely a very individualized part of the game.  Lots of different ways to get it in the hole.  I do believe a lot of amateurs put too much pressure on themselves in the 5'-10' range though.  I firmly believe that's a range that the only time practice will really help is if you have the exact same putt on the course, which is seldom.  I think most folks would be better off working on their speed control so they two-putted from longer distances more often.  

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