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Testers Wanted! Callaway Ai Smoke Drivers & AutoFlex Dream 7 Driver Shafts ×

HZRDUS guidance, advice, experience...?


therod

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Thanks Guy's. This Forum has been an Enlightening!! True; I'm over-the-hill & have been known to "Whack & Hack" & speak like a Canadian who has just been let out on a Day Pass!! Notice most these comments are from Hitters who are Single Digit so did read smart & slow. 

Do not know Club Champion; only what I have read. Do think it was positive & well-intended the PGA Store Fitter said to person being Tested. Wish I had same input when I recently got Tested. Wow!! this info is Heavyweight compared just buying off the Rack!!

Just sayin'... Thanks for the info. 

b

 

 

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I have tried the black, smoke black, yellow, smoke yellow, and the green. I ended up with a smoke yellow. Also aggressive move up top when fitted. I had better numbers with tensei white but at a $150 upcharge or the smoke yellow for free. Since I am returning to golf after injuries I decided to stick to free shaft untill I am playing better. Now that my swing is smoother I hate the smoke yellow. I honestly don't like my driver in general. I have switched to the evenflow t1100 and it's better now. 

 

The difference between the hazardous line I couldn't really feel they all felt stable but the blacks felt heavy and slowed my ss to much the green was to light and I was coming over the top with it. The smoke yellow felt the best for my move from the top. So I went with it. It has a very stable feeling almost like steel to me can't really feel it load. 

 

steelhead 9°, rbz 5w, ping awr 2 bc irons, isi irons, or nike vapor irons, cleveland 52°, 58°, 64° 2 ball putter.

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On 12/23/2021 at 10:09 AM, RickyBobby_PR said:

I hate the hzrdus black and the smoke black even though I have an aggressive transition. The rdx black feels much better.

Ive been fit to the hzrdus yellow several times and the smoke yellow feels slightly better. The rdx blue which is the replacement for the yellow is a much better feel and I like it in the sim2.

I played the hzrdus green in the sim max and was surprised how for its design it felt better than the black and gave me a better ball flight over the black. Didn’t perform better than the yellow for me.

What you had isn’t a fitting. It was a guy that swapped shafts and heads and gave you some information. If he didn’t tell you exactly what shaft to play then it was a waste of a fitting imo.  Nobody here can tell you what shaft to play either. It’s quite possible that an evenflow balck or white would work for you.

Find a better fitter and one that when you walk away from it you have confidence in what you were fit to and don’t need to get opinions from strangers that haven’t seen your swing, your launch monitor numbers or your ball flight.

A lot of quality information in this post.  A quality fitting takes all the guess-work out of your decision. If you’re left guessing or asking questions after a fitting, find another fitter immediately!

I’ve played the HZRDUS Smoke Black RDX since June. I was fit by the head professional at my home club. The only question following the fitting was whether the shaft was going in a Titleist TSi2 or Ping G425 LST. Which was my preference as opposed to a guess. I went with the TSi2. I really like the combination and have played some of my best golf with it. 
 

My only instruction to my head professional was, help me maintain distance, improve consistency, and illuminate the left side of the golf course. Which has been my miss for as long as I’ve played golf. I’d say we accomplished that objective nicely. 

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I'm NOT impressed with any of the HZRDUS shafts as the torque numbers are just too high. I much prefer a much lower torque rating for all of my graphite shafts. My favorite graphite shaft is in my driver and it has a torque rating of 1.7. When someone makes a new shaft with a rating under 2.0 I'll think about getting a new shaft for a test drive, Until then I'll stick with what I have. 

All my clubs are custom built with aftermarket shafts that have been spine and FLO aligned for max performance every swing. 

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I was a big fan of the HZRDOUS line until I went to the KBS TD Driver/Wood Shaft - KBS (kbsgolfshafts.com) in category 3 (stiff) at 70 g.  Try it.

What's In the Bag

Callaway Rogue ST Max 10.5° driver w/stiff Xcaliber Avalon 5 shaft
Tour Edge Exotics EXS 220 3-wood w/stiff Xcaliber Mystic 5 shaft
Tour Edge Exotics EXS 220 3-hybrid w/stiff Xcaliber RT shafts shaft
Malby KE4 Max irons with reg Xcaliber RT shafts
Callaway Jaws full toe 60° wedge with Project X Catalyst 80 wedge graphite shaft
Odyssey White Hot OG #7 CH stroke lab putter
Callaway Org 14 bag

I'm not over the hill.  I'm on the back nine.
 

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4 hours ago, IONEPUTT said:

I'm NOT impressed with any of the HZRDUS shafts as the torque numbers are just too high. I much prefer a much lower torque rating for all of my graphite shafts. My favorite graphite shaft is in my driver and it has a torque rating of 1.7. When someone makes a new shaft with a rating under 2.0 I'll think about getting a new shaft for a test drive, Until then I'll stick with what I have. 

The torque number means nothing outside of the hzrdus line or any other project x shaft. Unless you are comparing them to another shaft that was measured at the same point by the same machine then you aren’t comparing apples to apples. The torque number is also insignificant by itself. I’ve swing a shaft that had a 2.1 torque and waggled like a wet noodle. The materials used, number of flags of each material, length of each flag and their orientation play a role in how the shaft feels/plays

for many the hzrdus smoke black at 3.5 still plays stout for most golfers compared to the smoke green in same flex and weight and it has a 3.0 torque 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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Thank you all who offered details of your shaft experiences, I learned details about the various hazardous shafts that are pertinent to me. While I'm also inclined to low torque shafts, I have found the Hazardous Black 6.0 -  75 gram shaft works for me. I have, through the years of trial and error, found some X labeled shafts work for me, a TX model S is actually stiffer than the X non - TX. I now anticipate that my future shaft use will be culled from my massive collection of woods and hybrids uninstalled in cardboard tubes and installed in the clubs I currently possess. I've been golfing 52 years and hopefully another 20. But one thing is sure, it will all be outdated and worthless very soon.

Please keep the equipment pursuit going, it is informative as well as entertaining, thank you very much!

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Next time skip PGA SS and Golf Galaxy.  I’ve been to both of them in Indy and they’re not the brightest when it comes to fitting. Club Champion is directly between them and you’ll get the best club/shaft combination that fits you there

Sim2Max Driver

Apex CF16 Irons

Taylormade Spider Mini Putter

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On 12/29/2021 at 10:35 PM, mattpobrien4 said:

Yes, PGA Tour superstore employees are actually rich, 228$ per day they are making 🙂

I don't think anyone said they were getting rich. They are probably getting paid a fair wage being in the retail industry. Looks like you have only posted two times, why are you being so negative? Chill out dude!

Driver: :titelist-small: TSI3 - 10*, Hzrdus Smoke 6.0 Stiff

Driver: :taylormade-small: Stealth Plus - 10.5*, Oban Kiyoshi Purple O4Flex-65 Grams Purred
3 Wood: :taylormade-small: SIM - 15*, Graphite Design Tour AD DJ5 Stiff
Hybrid: :titelist-small: TS3 - 19*, Hzrdus Smoke 6.0 Stiff
Irons: :titelist-small:  5 - PW T150, with Nippon Zelos 7 Reg, 4 iron - U505 with Project X HZRDUS Black Stiff

Wedges: :titelist-small: Vokey SM 8 - 50*, 60* Standard Wedge Shafts

Wedge: :taylormade-small: Milled Grind 3 MG3 56* S200 shaft

Putter:  :scotty-cameron-1: Studio Select Newport 1.5        
Putter:  :scotty-cameron-1: Phantom X 5.5
Ball: :titelist-small: Pro V1x

 

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On 12/23/2021 at 9:10 AM, RickyBobby_PR said:

The hzrdus black is a very stout low launch low spin shaft and very hard to turn over. It was the one knock the pga tour pros had about the black. The red is a hzrdus black with a softer tip that allowed the pros to turn the ball over

By turn over, are you talking about a right to left ball flight for a right handed player?  If so, that puzzles me.  I can duck hook my HZRDUS Black 6.5, 85g shafts with the best of them.

WITB:

Taylormade SIM2 Max 9° w/ UST ProForce V2 5F3 @ 45"

Callaway Epic Speed 4wd w/ AccuFLEX Evolution Reg

Dynacraft Genesis 3 hybrid w/ Steelfiber i95r

Srixon ZX5 4-6 and ZX7 7-GW w/ UST Recoil 95 F4 soft stepped once

Cleveland RTX Zipcore 54/10 w/ Recoil 95 F4 shaft

Cleveland RTX-4 58/03 w/ Recoil 95 F4 9i shaft

Odyssey SL EXO Marxman

Pondering:

Nothing at the moment

In the locker:

Too much to list

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11 minutes ago, puttnfool said:

By turn over, are you talking about a right to left ball flight for a right handed player?  If so, that puzzles me.  I can duck hook my HZRDUS Black 6.5, 85g shafts with the best of them.

Yes. But I unlike a duck hook which is a swing issue the pros are trying to play a the shot shape and do it with some control.

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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5 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Yes. But I unlike a duck hook which is a swing issue the pros are trying to play a the shot shape and do it with some control.

Yeah, I know.  I was being a tidbit facetious.  I liked the Black 6.5, 85g because I could go after it without worrying (as much) about it getting away from me.  My swing topped out around 105-108ish while I played it.  My tendency is to quit on the swing and leave it hanging out right.  With the Black, I felt like I could go after it without worry of overcooking it.  I favored a fade, but I could draw it if necessary.

WITB:

Taylormade SIM2 Max 9° w/ UST ProForce V2 5F3 @ 45"

Callaway Epic Speed 4wd w/ AccuFLEX Evolution Reg

Dynacraft Genesis 3 hybrid w/ Steelfiber i95r

Srixon ZX5 4-6 and ZX7 7-GW w/ UST Recoil 95 F4 soft stepped once

Cleveland RTX Zipcore 54/10 w/ Recoil 95 F4 shaft

Cleveland RTX-4 58/03 w/ Recoil 95 F4 9i shaft

Odyssey SL EXO Marxman

Pondering:

Nothing at the moment

In the locker:

Too much to list

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23 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

The torque number means nothing outside of the hzrdus line or any other project x shaft. Unless you are comparing them to another shaft that was measured at the same point by the same machine then you aren’t comparing apples to apples. The torque number is also insignificant by itself. I’ve swing a shaft that had a 2.1 torque and waggled like a wet noodle. The materials used, number of flags of each material, length of each flag and their orientation play a role in how the shaft feels/plays

for many the hzrdus smoke black at 3.5 still plays stout for most golfers compared to the smoke green in same flex and weight and it has a 3.0 torque 

You need to learn the difference between torque and flex. Torque has to do with twisting resistance, NOT how stiff or soft the shaft is flex wise.  Steel shafts have a torque between 1.8 and 2.2 degrees. That's 1.8 for an X flex and 2.2 for an L flex. I just don't see any reason a graphite driver shaft can't have a torque rating that is close to what a steel shaft measures. Fact is there is a putter shaft being sold today that has a torque of 1.0, so I know it can be done with a graphite shaft for a wood. 

    When you waggled that shaft all you did was get an idea of how STIFF or SOFT the FLEX was. You didn't learn a dame thing about how that shaft would resist twisting. Something tells me if you waggled a shaft with a torque of 2.1, it was an A flex steel shaft, not a stiff graphite shaft for a driver. 

All my clubs are custom built with aftermarket shafts that have been spine and FLO aligned for max performance every swing. 

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8 hours ago, IONEPUTT said:

You need to learn the difference between torque and flex. Torque has to do with twisting resistance, NOT how stiff or soft the shaft is flex wise.  Steel shafts have a torque between 1.8 and 2.2 degrees. That's 1.8 for an X flex and 2.2 for an L flex. I just don't see any reason a graphite driver shaft can't have a torque rating that is close to what a steel shaft measures. Fact is there is a putter shaft being sold today that has a torque of 1.0, so I know it can be done with a graphite shaft for a wood. 

    When you waggled that shaft all you did was get an idea of how STIFF or SOFT the FLEX was. You didn't learn a dame thing about how that shaft would resist twisting. Something tells me if you waggled a shaft with a torque of 2.1, it was an A flex steel shaft, not a stiff graphite shaft for a driver. 

I know the difference between the two and have had ing conversations with goth PX and UST

Unlike with steel designers can do a lot of different things with graphite and torque is used mostly for feel but again it’s irrelevant when comparing shafts between two different manufacturers based on what I said about not using same machine or measurement point.

Flex is also irrelevant because that’s just a destination a brand gives a shaft and is meaningless between different brands as well as witihin the same shaft brand outside of the same line.

I did more than waggle then shaft. I along with 6 other guys hit balls with it on the range and those were guys that had sub 90 to 115 mph swing speeds. Everyone has the same results. Nobody could control the club face and shots were all over the place.

The EI profile is going to more important in determining how a shaft will play for a golfer than just looking at some flex letter or torque rating. 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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Also when it comes to stiffness there is bending stiffness and tortuously stiffness.

these can’t be separated in steel, whereas in graphite the designers can manipulate each one separately. Using the same materials they can rotate the flag orientation and change how the shaft plays. 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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11 hours ago, IONEPUTT said:

You need to learn the difference between torque and flex. Torque has to do with twisting resistance, NOT how stiff or soft the shaft is flex wise.  Steel shafts have a torque between 1.8 and 2.2 degrees. That's 1.8 for an X flex and 2.2 for an L flex. I just don't see any reason a graphite driver shaft can't have a torque rating that is close to what a steel shaft measures. Fact is there is a putter shaft being sold today that has a torque of 1.0, so I know it can be done with a graphite shaft for a wood. 

    When you waggled that shaft all you did was get an idea of how STIFF or SOFT the FLEX was. You didn't learn a dame thing about how that shaft would resist twisting. Something tells me if you waggled a shaft with a torque of 2.1, it was an A flex steel shaft, not a stiff graphite shaft for a driver. 

While it does influence twisting,  it is more about tuning specific feels in a shaft per true temper.   

 

 

Per TPT it is about dispersion and that it is misleading comparing across manufacturers

https://tptgolf.com/learn/what-testing-reveals-about-torque/

https://pluggedingolf.com/shafts-101-torque/

Ultimately you may perform better with a lower torque shaft in the manufacturer you have in your club, but that doesn't mean a higher number in another companies isn't right for you.  ultimately you have to test the shaft and see how it works.   If you are looking for a specific torque number,  you are potentially limiting that shaft list that may work for you as you are focusing on one number and not how the shaft works. 

 

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15*  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :titleist-small: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite
Putter:   Sacks Parente MC 3 Stripe

Backup Putters:  :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, :seemore-small: mFGP2, :cameron-small: Futura 5W, :taylormade-small:TM-180

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

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On 1/2/2022 at 8:50 AM, cnosil said:

While it does influence twisting,  it is more about tuning specific feels in a shaft per true temper.   

 

 

Per TPT it is about dispersion and that it is misleading comparing across manufacturers

https://tptgolf.com/learn/what-testing-reveals-about-torque/

https://pluggedingolf.com/shafts-101-torque/

Ultimately you may perform better with a lower torque shaft in the manufacturer you have in your club, but that doesn't mean a higher number in another companies isn't right for you.  ultimately you have to test the shaft and see how it works.   If you are looking for a specific torque number,  you are potentially limiting that shaft list that may work for you as you are focusing on one number and not how the shaft works. 

 

While you are correct in stating that torque effects how a shaft feels, it is also true that torque will effect shot dispersion, especially left to right shot pattern. You posted a video about the TPT shafts, which is interesting in that I had a driver shaft fitting for their line of TPT shafts, I tested 5 of those shafts, one was a LT shaft and the others were MT models. Each shaft was priced at $500 per shaft. Of the 5 shafts I tested, only the LT shaft gave me a performance level that was acceptable to me. With the XS LT shaft I was hitting 80% of the fairways, With the other 4, all MT shafts of the same line, I was hitting 50% at best. It didn[t matte which flex I hit with the 4 shafts, they all gave me a dispersion pattern that was TWICE as wide as what I was getting with the LT shaft. And this fitting was done using the most foregiving driver head on the market at the time, that being the Ping G400 MAX.  When I hit my 15 year old driver with a S flex 76 gram shaft with a torque rating of 1.7*, I got an impressive 75 % fairway result. BETTER than what any of the $500 mid torque shafts could do with a much more forgiving head compared to my old driver, a 2005 Cleveland Launcher. 

So you can say what you like about feel in a driver shaft, but I much prefer to go by Performance not feel. I do NOT have a problem with any of my irons with steel shafts that have a torque ratting of 2.0 or less, and I don't have a problem with a graphite shaft with the same low torque numbers. Some other golfers may say a LOW torque graphite shaft feels Harsh or Boardy in their hands, but I don't have that issue. I just like the higher percentage of fairways I hit with the tighter shot pattern I get with the LOW torque shaft in my driver and woods. 

    IF anyone here prefers how a shaft "Feels" in their hands over how the shaft "Performs" out on the course, they are welcome to play those high torque shafts all they want. I'll stick with my low torque shaft and enjoy hitting my second shots from the short grass 75% to 80% of the time. 

All my clubs are custom built with aftermarket shafts that have been spine and FLO aligned for max performance every swing. 

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17 minutes ago, IONEPUTT said:

While you are correct in stating that torque effects how a shaft feels, it is also true that torque will effect shot dispersion, especially left to right shot pattern. You posted a video about the TPT shafts, which is interesting in that I had a driver shaft fitting for their line of TPT shafts, I tested 5 of those shafts, one was a LT shaft and the others were MT models. Each shaft was priced at $500 per shaft. Of the 5 shafts I tested, only the LT shaft gave me a performance level that was acceptable to me. With the XS LT shaft I was hitting 80% of the fairways, With the other 4, all MT shafts of the same line, I was hitting 50% at best. It didn[t matte which flex I hit with the 4 shafts, they all gave me a dispersion pattern that was TWICE as wide as what I was getting with the LT shaft. And this fitting was done using the most foregiving driver head on the market at the time, that being the Ping G400 MAX.  When I hit my 15 year old driver with a S flex 76 gram shaft with a torque rating of 1.7*, I got an impressive 75 % fairway result. BETTER than what any of the $500 mid torque shafts could do with a much more forgiving head compared to my old driver, a 2005 Cleveland Launcher. 

So you can say what you like about feel in a driver shaft, but I much prefer to go by Performance not feel. I do NOT have a problem with any of my irons with steel shafts that have a torque ratting of 2.0 or less, and I don't have a problem with a graphite shaft with the same low torque numbers. Some other golfers may say a LOW torque graphite shaft feels Harsh or Boardy in their hands, but I don't have that issue. I just like the higher percentage of fairways I hit with the tighter shot pattern I get with the LOW torque shaft in my driver and woods. 

    IF anyone here prefers how a shaft "Feels" in their hands over how the shaft "Performs" out on the course, they are welcome to play those high torque shafts all they want. I'll stick with my low torque shaft and enjoy hitting my second shots from the short grass 75% to 80% of the time. 

I don’t think any of us are questioning performance over feel. But you are quoting torque numbers that are essentially meaningless unless looking at one manufacturer. The posts were to show that torque is more associated with feel and that by just looking at a torque number you are not looking at all the necessary variables.    You are free to do what you want and if you approach works for you then great, but you are not really stating accurate information based on what industry experts are communicating.  Simply looking at torque is not the best way to fit a shaft and can have a negative influence on performance.  Basically look at the entire package. 

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15*  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :titleist-small: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite
Putter:   Sacks Parente MC 3 Stripe

Backup Putters:  :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, :seemore-small: mFGP2, :cameron-small: Futura 5W, :taylormade-small:TM-180

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

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Hi there, I'm back again after watching the full video Of Matt hitting two versions of the same TPT shafts, one with a higher torque ratting than the other. If you look at the shot pattern of the two shafts, you will see that Matt got the same results that I did, only less of a difference than me. I got a shot pattern with the low torque shaft that was HALF the size of that the mid torque shaft gave me. For Matt, he got a shot pattern that was about 2/3rds the size of what he got with the higher torque shaft. NOT exactly the same results as what I got, but we both got a tighter shot pattern with the lower torque shaft in the test. Again, YOU can pick what you like but I'm going with the tighter shot pattern and MORE fairways hit every time. 

All my clubs are custom built with aftermarket shafts that have been spine and FLO aligned for max performance every swing. 

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11 minutes ago, IONEPUTT said:

Hi there, I'm back again after watching the full video Of Matt hitting two versions of the same TPT shafts, one with a higher torque ratting than the other. If you look at the shot pattern of the two shafts, you will see that Matt got the same results that I did, only less of a difference than me. I got a shot pattern with the low torque shaft that was HALF the size of that the mid torque shaft gave me. For Matt, he got a shot pattern that was about 2/3rds the size of what he got with the higher torque shaft. NOT exactly the same results as what I got, but we both got a tighter shot pattern with the lower torque shaft in the test. Again, YOU can pick what you like but I'm going with the tighter shot pattern and MORE fairways hit every time. 

And lower torque works for you, which is great.  If you listened at the end the answer was to look at the shaft as a whole and not to isolate just torque.  

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15*  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :titleist-small: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite
Putter:   Sacks Parente MC 3 Stripe

Backup Putters:  :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, :seemore-small: mFGP2, :cameron-small: Futura 5W, :taylormade-small:TM-180

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

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8 minutes ago, cnosil said:

I don’t think any of us are questioning performance over feel. But you are quoting torque numbers that are essentially meaningless unless looking at one manufacturer. The posts were to show that torque is more associated with feel and that by just looking at a torque number you are not looking at all the necessary variables.    You are free to do what you want and if you approach works for you then great, but you are not really stating accurate information based on what industry experts are communicating.  Simply looking at torque is not the best way to fit a shaft and can have a negative influence on performance.  Basically look at the entire package. 

I "TOTALLY"  agree with you when you say that HOW shafts are tested for torque will vary, same as flex ratings will NOT be the same for one company to the next, and even from one model to the next from the SAME company. 

What I can do is "Measure" the torque of any shaft I buy and I have done that in the past. When I first started building up clubs from components, one of the first things I purchased after a Swing Weight machine was a Torque measuring device that allowed me to measure any shaft I wanted to test. And just as you mentioned, NOT all shafts are measured the same by the shaft companies. It is "Fair" to say that some shafts measured pretty close to what was stated in the specs, and some were NOT even close, Of the ones that was not close, "ALL" of those shafts measured a LOT higher for torque than what the specs said they were. 

   That said, the bottom line is the same for me. When I do a side by side test of shafts in a driver, I always get a tighter shot pattern and more fairways hit with the lower torque shafts. For "ME", that equates to "Better Performance" on the launch monitor and on the course. And that to me is what matters, NOT whether one shaft "feels" better during the swing. 

All my clubs are custom built with aftermarket shafts that have been spine and FLO aligned for max performance every swing. 

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1 minute ago, cnosil said:

And lower torque works for you, which is great.  If you listened at the end the answer was to look at the shaft as a whole and not to isolate just torque.  

Again I "Totally Agree" with you. What matters is what works for  you, not anyone else.  

In the video the club fitter also mentioned shaft weight, and that shaft weight should NOT be an issue, only what works best for EACH golfer. Again, I agree with that statement  But here I find a BIG problem with what is being told to the golfers of the world and what "MY testing" has shown.  When I started playing golf 20 years ago a 65 gram shaft was the NORM, for just about every driver on the market. Then a few years later some OEM's started selling drivers with 55 gram shafts and "Claiming" higher swing speed and More distancee with the new lighter shafts. So like the average "Dumb" golfer I purchased a new 55 gram shaft to use in a new driver so I too could hit longer drives with a higher swing speed. Bet then I won a "FREE" driver from a local club making in the Denver area and had a free fitting to go with the new driver. During the fitting the results were that a 75 gram shaft was a "Better Fit" for my swing, So the fitter built up a test club with a 75 gram shaft for me to demo. As you might expect, "I was thinking: that this 75 grams shaft would "Cost" me some swing speed. So we did a new test. I went out to my car and brought in two drivers, my driver with a 65 grams shaft and the new one with the 55 grams shaft, so I could hit all "Three" shaft weights in a new test. What we found was that I got the exact same 105 MPH swing speed with "ALL THREE"  shafts, ZERO difference between the lightest at 55 grams and the heaviest at 75 grams. 

So much what what "ALL of the OEM's of the day were claiming in all of their ads. Since we did that test I have done my own testing with a couple dozen other golfers at the driveing range. And what I found EACH time was that the heavier shaft in my driver, 76grams, did NOT cause any of those golfers to lose any clubhead speed at all. And for a few really "GOOD" golfers, but that I mean golfers that played college golf and were close to stretch golfers, they even "GAINED" some speed going from their 50-55 grams shaft drivers to my 76 grams driver during the testing session. One golfer I will never forget. He went from 108 with his sub 50 grams shaft driver, to 112 with a 65 grams shaft driver and then up to 118 with my 76 grans shaft driver.   Needless to say he couldn't believe what the reading were showing, but when he looked at where the golf balls were landing he had to admit that the reading were telling a "True" story, Last I heard from him he was heading to his local golf shop to have a new 7a5 grams shaft installed in his driver. 

And if you are wondering, I'm still playing that 2005 model Cleveland driver with the 76 grams S flex shaft with the 1.7* torque rating And I stlll can hit a few 300 yard drives at the age of 74 years. 

    Bottom line with all things golf, is that you can "Believe" what you read or watch in a video. but the "SMART" golfers will do their OWN testing to see what the truth is. 

All my clubs are custom built with aftermarket shafts that have been spine and FLO aligned for max performance every swing. 

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Last post for now on Torque. I just watched the video by TT on what torque is. And just like ALL of the videos by Keenen, he is full of garbage. All he ever says it what the "COMPANY" tells him to say. And every shaft company says pretty much the same thing for the same reason. Truth is it "COSTS MORE" to bulld a low torque shaft of the same weight than it does for a shaft with a higher torque.  They NEED to use MORE high end material to build a lower torque 55 grams shaft than it does to build a higher torque 55 grams shaft. More mateiial of higher quality means MORE money to build. 

For those here that may not believe me, you can call the head shaft designed at TPT and ask him about torque and how it effects shot patterns. When I talked to him right after I did the shaft fitting with 5 different TPT shafts, he told me what I expected, He told me that a Lower torque shaft WILL give a golfer a smaller left to right shot pattern than a higher torque shaft will. And that is exactly why TPT built a LT version of their shafts for the Tour Pros to use. Last time I heard, there were FIVE Tour wins by playering using their LT version of their shafts, and ZERO tour wins using the MT version of the same shafts. 

   You have most likely heard that ALL of the newer graphite shafts do NOT need to be Spine and FLO aligned these days, as all newer shafts are built much better than what was available 20 years ago.  And AGAIN, This is just what all of the shaft companies are saying, and NOT at all what the truth is. I've tested shafts from a low of $35 to a high of $500 a shaft. and ALL of them varied in flex depending on which way the spine was aligned in the clubhead. And ALL of them would ONLY pass the FLO test when aligned in one of two alignments, which is why I NEVER build a golf club without doing both a Spine and a FLO test on the shaft. Truth is EVERY shaft I've ever installed in a club performed better when it was properly Spine and FLO aligned in the head. 

All my clubs are custom built with aftermarket shafts that have been spine and FLO aligned for max performance every swing. 

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2 hours ago, IONEPUTT said:

close to what was stated in the specs, and some were NOT even close, Of the ones that was not close, "ALL" of those shafts measured a LOT higher for torque than what the specs said they were. 

Unless you measured in the same spot with the same machine as the manufacturer you were testing your results are going to vary. It’s no different than if you look at some of the hzrdus shafts on titleist website compared to what’s on the px website you will find some differences because px and titleist measure differently 

2 hours ago, IONEPUTT said:

Truth is it "COSTS MORE" to bulld a low torque shaft of the same weight than it does for a shaft with a higher torque.  They NEED to use MORE high end material to build a lower torque 55 grams shaft than it does to build a higher torque 55 grams shaft. More mateiial of higher quality means MORE money to build. 

Not true. They can use the same materials and just change the orientation of flags and have it influence torque.

 

2 hours ago, IONEPUTT said:

Last post for now on Torque. I just watched the video by TT on what torque is. And just like ALL of the videos by Keenen, he is full of garbage. All he ever says it what the "COMPANY" tells him to say. And every shaft company says pretty much the same thing for the same reason. Truth is it "COSTS MORE" to bulld a low torque shaft of the same weight than it does for a shaft with a higher torque.  They NEED to use MORE high end material to build a lower torque 55 grams shaft than it does to build a higher torque 55 grams shaft. More mateiial of higher quality means MORE money to build. 

For those here that may not believe me, you can call the head shaft designed at TPT and ask him about torque and how it effects shot patterns. When I talked to him right after I did the shaft fitting with 5 different TPT shafts, he told me what I expected, He told me that a Lower torque shaft WILL give a golfer a smaller left to right shot pattern than a higher torque shaft will. And that is exactly why TPT built a LT version of their shafts for the Tour Pros to use. Last time I heard, there were FIVE Tour wins by playering using their LT version of their shafts, and ZERO tour wins using the MT version of the same shafts. 

   You have most likely heard that ALL of the newer graphite shafts do NOT need to be Spine and FLO aligned these days, as all newer shafts are built much better than what was available 20 years ago.  And AGAIN, This is just what all of the shaft companies are saying, and NOT at all what the truth is. I've tested shafts from a low of $35 to a high of $500 a shaft. and ALL of them varied in flex depending on which way the spine was aligned in the clubhead. And ALL of them would ONLY pass the FLO test when aligned in one of two alignments, which is why I NEVER build a golf club without doing both a Spine and a FLO test on the shaft. Truth is EVERY shaft I've ever installed in a club performed better when it was properly Spine and FLO aligned in the head. 

And this post shows you don’t trust the experts which is fine as like many things people are skeptical and thing many are just selling something or pushing a corporate narrative. But to appease yourself you throw out their expertise and what people like myself who have been to shaft manufacturers and have seen the entire process of shaft design and have seen the experts design a shaft based off nothing more than an amateur describing what they want in a shaft compared to the test shaft they had. This also include rolling the shaft. Several others in this site were privy to the insight we have from the experts.

You like what you like but since you have not interest in accepting what the experts say this will be my last response to you in this thread 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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3 hours ago, IONEPUTT said:

And what I found EACH time was that the heavier shaft in my driver, 76grams, did NOT cause any of those golfers to lose any clubhead speed at all. And for a few really "GOOD" golfers, but that I mean golfers that played college golf and were close to stretch golfers, they even "GAINED" some speed going from their 50-55 grams shaft drivers to my 76 grams driver during the testing session.

in my testing of shafts,  I have found similar results.   While the swing speed did not vary much initially,  it might change over time due to fatigue.   It also altered how the club was delivered to include path, dynamic loft, and impact location.   I am in the 105-110 range and find that lighter shafts work better for my swing.   Performance is driven by how a player reacts to the club in their hand.  

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15*  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :titleist-small: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite
Putter:   Sacks Parente MC 3 Stripe

Backup Putters:  :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, :seemore-small: mFGP2, :cameron-small: Futura 5W, :taylormade-small:TM-180

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

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Ok, back on topic...concerning the HZRDUS line, how different is the red? I don't see it in catalogs anymore, so I don't even know if it's still in production. I know it's supposed to be slightly higher launching, but how different is it from the standard black? When I demoed the black, I couldn't square it up, and everything was a very pronounced fade. That's why I was going to try a white Evenflow, until prepping the tip it revealed a bad shaft tip. I could try to find another. I could just try a black Evenflow. Or maybe a red HZRDUS. How different is the red vs the black, or the other new releases. The smoke black is also a thought. But I don't want to fight the pronounced fade the standard black gave me. Thoughts and opinions?

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1 hour ago, therod said:

Ok, back on topic...concerning the HZRDUS line, how different is the red? I don't see it in catalogs anymore, so I don't even know if it's still in production. I know it's supposed to be slightly higher launching, but how different is it from the standard black? When I demoed the black, I couldn't square it up, and everything was a very pronounced fade. That's why I was going to try a white Evenflow, until prepping the tip it revealed a bad shaft tip. I could try to find another. I could just try a black Evenflow. Or maybe a red HZRDUS. How different is the red vs the black, or the other new releases. The smoke black is also a thought. But I don't want to fight the pronounced fade the standard black gave me. Thoughts and opinions?

The original red is the same as the original black except they softened the tip. It was only in production for a year or two.

There is a new version that was just released with the smoke red. It’s one of the new no upcharge shafts in several brands.

The smoke black is still very much like the original black but slightly softer. Everyone I know that hated the black hates the smoke black. Feel wise the smoke green was a better feel but with similar ball flight as the black for me.

The amount of launch or spin difference in shafts for most isn’t that large despite the terms higher launch, lower launch, etc. the ball flight is determined by the usar. Read the 10 shaft myths by Tom Wishon. Most of the relevant ones have a thread in the shaft forum.

Results are going to vary for each golfer so anyone on here would be guessing what might work for you just like you are. It’s possible the rdx red works for you, the rdx green or previous smoke green could be an option. It’s possible the yellow works too. The im10 or maybe even riptide could be a good option. Might be possible nothing in the hzrdus family is a fit and the even flow line is better. 
 

Also possible something in the fujikura lineup or Mitsubishi would work. The ust Mamiya Lin-q gunmetal is a good shaft and could be a better feel for you and give you the ability to turn the ball over.

This is what good fittings accomplish. They get you the right shaft in the right head for your swing.

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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