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Why Do Scotty Camerons Do (So) Poorly in MGS Most Wanted?


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4 hours ago, cnosil said:

 I also don’t believe that you need to putt outside on a real green to evaluate.  Outdoor greens aren’t perfect and how the ball rolls is influenced by the green and not you stroke.  Indoors you can control the conditions better and evaluate start line and distance control with a “perfect” roll.  The time requirement; IMO, is about understanding dispersion patterns as all clubs, even putters, have a dispersion pattern.  

 

... I feel the opposite. Controlled indoor putting is just that. Putting on the course when it matters is a completely different animal. I make the same argument for getting fit for a driver when you stand in the same spot and dial in your shots when they don't even count as opposed to one time only on the tee and the results count. Pressure changes everything. I don't want what tests best, I want what performs best under the pressure of actually playing. I bought the original Spyder putter after rolling it fantastic on the hard, fast and flat surfaces of the PGA SS. It was abysmal for me on the course. It still performed well on straight flat putts but anything of distance with break was a disaster. I sold it after one round. I have found Scotty's to have excellent balance and feel. I have played several but none stayed in my bag for long. My last putting purchase for putting on Bermuda after a lifetime of putting a blade putter on bent greens, I was determined to get the best mallet putter for my stroke regardless of cost. I expected to buy a Scotty or Bettinardi or other "premium" putter. I took several days of testing to make sure my results were consistent and ended up with a $129 Cleveland mallet. It was a real surprise for me but I have been very happy with the performance. 

... I LOVE MGS testing but putters especially I take with a grain of salt. Putting is so personal and I would argue more mental than physical for anyone with even close to a repeatable stroke. I use a traditional putter grip, Sinkfit Skinny and testing with a fatter grip will not give me a true idea of how it would perform on the course. Anything other than a 33.5" length the I have putted with for 36 years would also be less than ideal. So I could use all the testing putters and give a general opinion but not sure that would hold up on the course once I had it cut and weighted to my perfect length and grip. 

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Driver:     :taylormade-small: SIM2 Max 10.5* ... AD-MT SR 
Fairway:  :taylormade-small: SIM2 Max 15/16.5/18* ... Tensei Raw Blue 65R
Utility:      :taylormade-small: UDi 18* ... Even Flow Black 85R
                 :taylormade-small: DHy 19* ... Diamana Ltd 65R
                  :taylormade-small: Sim Hybrid 22* ... Diamana Ltd 75R
Irons:        :cobra-small: 5-Pw Forged Tec/4i FTx ... KBS TGi 85S
Wedges:   :taylormade-small: MG3 50*/MG3 58* LB ... Steelfiber 95R
Putter:      :cleveland-small: Hunting Beach Soft 11S 33.5"
Ball:           :taylormade-small: Maxfli Tour '22/TP5x '21

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9 minutes ago, chisag said:

Controlled indoor putting is just that. Putting on the course when it matters is a completely different animal. I make the same argument for getting fit for a driver when you stand in the same spot and dial in your shots when they don't even count as opposed to one time only on the tee and the results count. Pressure changes everything

Great points! I completely agree with everything you put here.  So much importance to numbers on a simulator even for irons/driver, but when you get out to the course where the results really matter - what are you doing then?  

It would not be feasible to test the same way because of just how much equipment is out there, but if you are able to demo 2/3 of you top performers from a fitting, I think you'd come away with a much better tuned set that you would have peak confidence with and truly play your best golf.

I think a lot of people are able to adjust since they are in a controlled environment and hitting one ball after another.

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9 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... I feel the opposite. Controlled indoor putting is just that. Putting on the course when it matters is a completely different animal. I make the same argument for getting fit for a driver when you stand in the same spot and dial in your shots when they don't even count as opposed to one time only on the tee and the results count. Pressure changes everything.

... I LOVE MGS testing but putters especially I take with a grain of salt. Putting is so personal and I would argue more mental than physical for anyone with even close to a repeatable stroke. I use a traditional putter grip, Sinkfit Skinny and testing with a fatter grip will not give me a true idea of how it would perform on the course. Anything other than a 33.5" length the I have putted with for 36 years would also be less than ideal. So I could use all the testing putters and give a general opinion but not sure that would hold up on the course once I had it cut and weighted to my perfect length and grip. 

Pressure does change everything.  Testing a putter on a green versus inside changes nothing as you can still stand in the same spot.  What you are advocating is playing and evaluating the club. I do agree that is something that needs to be done.  But is that a club issue or a mental issue?  
 

I personally agree that the testing isn’t ideal, but as I know you have mentioned and as have I, the testing isnt intended for players like us; it is intended for the player that buys off the rack.  My biggest subjective feedback on putters is related to the grip.  

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1 minute ago, cnosil said:

Testing a putter on a green versus inside changes nothing as you can still stand in the same spot.  What you are advocating is playing and evaluating the club. I do agree that is something that needs to be done.  But is that a club issue or a mental issue?  
 

I personally agree that the testing isn’t ideal, but as I know you have mentioned and as have I, the testing isnt intended for players like us; it is intended for the player that buys off the rack.

 

... Of course you can stand in one spot but most practice greens have plenty of slope and distance differences so just using one ball and putting in different directions can make a huge difference and come closer to on course performance because you can't adjust to your first putt and dial anything in. But again I like testing and fittings and highly recommend both as starting points. And agree with you, average off the rack players, especially those that play once a week and never practice would find it very valuable. 

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Fairway:  :taylormade-small: SIM2 Max 15/16.5/18* ... Tensei Raw Blue 65R
Utility:      :taylormade-small: UDi 18* ... Even Flow Black 85R
                 :taylormade-small: DHy 19* ... Diamana Ltd 65R
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Irons:        :cobra-small: 5-Pw Forged Tec/4i FTx ... KBS TGi 85S
Wedges:   :taylormade-small: MG3 50*/MG3 58* LB ... Steelfiber 95R
Putter:      :cleveland-small: Hunting Beach Soft 11S 33.5"
Ball:           :taylormade-small: Maxfli Tour '22/TP5x '21

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2 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

 

... Of course you can stand in one spot but most practice greens have plenty of slope and distance differences so just using one ball and putting in different directions can make a huge difference and come closer to on course performance because you can't adjust to your first putt and dial anything in. But again I like testing and fittings and highly recommend both as starting points. And agree with you, average off the rack players, especially those that play once a week and never practice would find it very valuable. 

Nit picking,  but indoor facilities now have platforms that enable you to change slope. 😁 My original point was more about real vs artificial grass and peoples opinions that fitting has to be done on a real green.   I think our opinions are also influenced by our mechanical/feel viewpoints and what skills the player happens to be practicing. 

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Putter:  logo-horizontal-black.svg Directed Force 2.1

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4 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Nit picking,  but indoor facilities now have platforms that enable you to change slope. 😁 My original point was more about real vs artificial grass and peoples opinions that fitting has to be done on a real green.   I think our opinions are also influenced by our mechanical/feel viewpoints and what skills the player happens to be practicing. 

 

... I am sure it does. No one size fits all in golf and we are all different. I would have also thought greens in a store or on a course are really not that different when I played Bent grass but Bermuda and the grain changed everything for me. I even had to adjust my 2-4 foot putting stroke to something more aggressive with a shorter backswing and more aggressive forward stroke after so many short putts were bumped off line by grain or the anomaly's in the green. Fast, smooth carpeting just can't emulate that experience for me but as you said I am more feel than mechanical. 

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Fairway:  :taylormade-small: SIM2 Max 15/16.5/18* ... Tensei Raw Blue 65R
Utility:      :taylormade-small: UDi 18* ... Even Flow Black 85R
                 :taylormade-small: DHy 19* ... Diamana Ltd 65R
                  :taylormade-small: Sim Hybrid 22* ... Diamana Ltd 75R
Irons:        :cobra-small: 5-Pw Forged Tec/4i FTx ... KBS TGi 85S
Wedges:   :taylormade-small: MG3 50*/MG3 58* LB ... Steelfiber 95R
Putter:      :cleveland-small: Hunting Beach Soft 11S 33.5"
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Good points by both @cnosil and @chisag in the discussion.  I think for what the most wanted testing is trying to accomplish and its intended audience the indoor 'controlled' test putts are giving good data to an off the rack buyer.

For a golfer that is interested in many other factors that influence a clubs performance the most wanted results can be used as a data point but the playing test over a lengthy time period is needed (maybe more than 1 round! 😆 ) to see if the club retains gamer status.   

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19 minutes ago, Shapotomous said:

Good points by both @cnosil and @chisag in the discussion. 

 

... I love reading cnosil's point of view as well as his insider testing. Always great to hear opposing views. He is more mechanical and I am more feel oriented, just like many forum members that are either or a little of both.  

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Driver:     :taylormade-small: SIM2 Max 10.5* ... AD-MT SR 
Fairway:  :taylormade-small: SIM2 Max 15/16.5/18* ... Tensei Raw Blue 65R
Utility:      :taylormade-small: UDi 18* ... Even Flow Black 85R
                 :taylormade-small: DHy 19* ... Diamana Ltd 65R
                  :taylormade-small: Sim Hybrid 22* ... Diamana Ltd 75R
Irons:        :cobra-small: 5-Pw Forged Tec/4i FTx ... KBS TGi 85S
Wedges:   :taylormade-small: MG3 50*/MG3 58* LB ... Steelfiber 95R
Putter:      :cleveland-small: Hunting Beach Soft 11S 33.5"
Ball:           :taylormade-small: Maxfli Tour '22/TP5x '21

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I had a Newport Select in my bag for several years.  One of my favorite parts of that putter was the grip.  I had a pistolero grip on it and I still haven't found a perfect replacement for it on my ER2B.  The SNSR Contour is close... but one day I might have a EVNROLL putter with a Scotty grip on it... if my OCD can stomach that.  haha

I originally got into mine because I loved the feel of the deep milled face and loved the design of the softer, more rounded Newport (no number) model.  It had no alignment aid, nothing to distract me, and felt great rolling the ball.  If I didn't have the chance to play an ER2B on the course and find that I liked the wide-blade look, and the feel was as good, I'd probably still be rolling it.  

Since that line though I have not enjoyed the feel of any of his insert putters, and never got along with any of the mallets.  Love the looks, but didn't actually like putting with them.  I haven't tried any of the newer ones though.

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Ok here is what MGS and countless others miss. I’m a +4 handicap and have won countless amateur tournaments. My gamer is a T5w (like Homa’s) and I’m completely brand agnostic. What Cameron does really well is keep things simple with putters that provide good feedback. Pros and great ams don’t miss the sweet spot of a putter by much so we need something predictable and reliable. If you are a great player you don’t need a lot of “tech”. Every time Odyssey or Evnroll come out with something I try it, want to love it but I always come back to SC. Grooves and inserts are quite unpredictable I’ve always felt. There is a reason why Odyssey’s best putter is also the most simple low tech one they have made (white hot). So if you need a game improvement putter get one but SC is likely not going to be the best for you. I promise if tech putters are that great for everyone every pro would be rolling Evnrolls or Odyssey grooved ones. 

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18 minutes ago, eternalfear00 said:

Ok here is what MGS and countless others miss. I’m a +4 handicap and have won countless amateur tournaments. My gamer is a T5w (like Homa’s) and I’m completely brand agnostic. What Cameron does really well is keep things simple with putters that provide good feedback. Pros and great ams don’t miss the sweet spot of a putter by much so we need something predictable and reliable. If you are a great player you don’t need a lot of “tech”. Every time Odyssey or Evnroll come out with something I try it, want to love it but I always come back to SC. Grooves and inserts are quite unpredictable I’ve always felt. There is a reason why Odyssey’s best putter is also the most simple low tech one they have made (white hot). So if you need a game improvement putter get one but SC is likely not going to be the best for you. I promise if tech putters are that great for everyone every pro would be rolling Evnrolls or Odyssey grooved ones. 

I'm certainly not at your level, but the feel of the milled face on my SC is why I can't see myself switching to anything else. It's soft, but not mushy like most inserts. Ball comes off like butta. I've never putted as well with anything else. 

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3w: PXG 341

5W: Cleveland launcher 

3H: Wilson Deep Red

5-GW: PXG 0211

SW LW: Mizuno MP T5

P: Scott Cameron Newport

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SC Newport putters, which are very good putters, are very similar to the Ping Anser and so are many other brands on the market.  The Anser was the best putter ever made.  I have three Newport putters and love them.  They fit my eye.  I have tried other brands and unusual configurations, but always come back to the Newport.   A putter is a very personal club, it is the one club you use the most during a round.  At least eighteen times.     

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27 minutes ago, eternalfear00 said:

Ok here is what MGS and countless others miss. I’m a +4 handicap and have won countless amateur tournaments. My gamer is a T5w (like Homa’s) and I’m completely brand agnostic. What Cameron does really well is keep things simple with putters that provide good feedback. Pros and great ams don’t miss the sweet spot of a putter by much so we need something predictable and reliable. If you are a great player you don’t need a lot of “tech”. Grooves and inserts are quite unpredictable I’ve always felt. There is a reason why Odyssey’s best putter is also the most simple low tech one they have made (white hot). I promise if tech putters are that great for everyone every pro would be rolling Evnrolls or Odyssey grooved ones. 

 

... A typical muni is quite different than a CC or Tournament caliber course. Certainly different then the Pro Tours where greens are so fast and true and you don't need tech to lift the ball out of an indention you find yourself in on thicker greens. You can also take a nice smooth stroke from 6 feet and still don't need to hammer the ball from 30 feet on fast and true greens so I am not surprised a simple putter works best for you and the Pro's. Jump on a muni rolling 8 on the stimp with grain growing into you and from 6 feet or take a mini driver swing from 30 feet and you may find grooves on the face aren't so bad. 

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Fairway:  :taylormade-small: SIM2 Max 15/16.5/18* ... Tensei Raw Blue 65R
Utility:      :taylormade-small: UDi 18* ... Even Flow Black 85R
                 :taylormade-small: DHy 19* ... Diamana Ltd 65R
                  :taylormade-small: Sim Hybrid 22* ... Diamana Ltd 75R
Irons:        :cobra-small: 5-Pw Forged Tec/4i FTx ... KBS TGi 85S
Wedges:   :taylormade-small: MG3 50*/MG3 58* LB ... Steelfiber 95R
Putter:      :cleveland-small: Hunting Beach Soft 11S 33.5"
Ball:           :taylormade-small: Maxfli Tour '22/TP5x '21

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15 minutes ago, Riverboat said:

I'm certainly not at your level, but the feel of the milled face on my SC is why I can't see myself switching to anything else. It's soft, but not mushy like most inserts. Ball comes off like butta. I've never putted as well with anything else. 

The ball you use and the groove depth have way more to do with feel than the material used. 

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Original Cameron putters were milled by Bettinardi. Cameron had no idea how to mill when he first began to build putters. His putters are very good, but so are all the others. Most Titleist tour players use Cameron because they are being paid to use them...and they're free! It's all about feel, looks, and what works for you. I use a '21 Ping Fetch, but my Odyssey Original White Hot Rossie is a winner, as is my Odyssey Original Dual Force Rossie Blade, the first with an insert...Faldo won the '96 Masters with a Dual Force Rossie II. I bought the WH Rossie used for $25 and the condition is 9.5/10! You don't have to spend $400+ on a putter.

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22 minutes ago, eternalfear00 said:

The ball you use and the groove depth have way more to do with feel than the material used. 

Not going to argue, but no other putter I've used feels as good as this one. Nonmilled steel faces have always been too clicky and hot, and as I said, most inserts have felt mushy, spongy. Could be that the milling reduces the amount of metal actually contacting the face which gives me the perfect in between feel, but it both feels and sounds soft but not dead. 

😧 Wilson Triton

3w: PXG 341

5W: Cleveland launcher 

3H: Wilson Deep Red

5-GW: PXG 0211

SW LW: Mizuno MP T5

P: Scott Cameron Newport

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As previously mentioned, tour pros have thousands upon thousands spent on fitting a SC to them. They also miss the center by fractions, if at all. Your AVERAGE golfer, most people buying off the rack, cant duplicate the same putting stroke 2 outta 5 times. I play with 100+ Random people a year on public courses, non sanctioned. The very vast majority of people that i see rolling scottys, couldnt make a 6’ straight put if their life depended on it. The average golfers that can putt ok, are usually rolling something with forgiveness. The handful of scratch golfers that ive played with, are almost never rolling scotty’s. 

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3 hours ago, chisag said:

 

... I love reading cnosil's point of view as well as his insider testing. Always great to hear opposing views. He is more mechanical and I am more feel oriented, just like many forum members that are either or a little of both.  

The same for me;  I enjoy reading your point of view.    My mind keeps going on this and going back to your putting under pressure,  this was one of the key points of one of my putting coaches.   He talked about finding the right matchups for your stroke so that when you were under pressure there were no manipulations.  These matchups included setup, how you power the stroke, and if the putter fit your tendencies.  

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Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15* set  to 16.5* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 816H1 19* set at 18* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  21*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 5-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :callaway-small: 54-10S   :cleveland-small: 588  58-12
Putter:  logo-horizontal-black.svg Directed Force 2.1

Backups:  :bobby-grace-1: 6330, :taylormade-small:TM-180, :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, Bellum Winmore 787, :seemore-small: mFGP2

 

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Cameron's have varied in feel thru the years, materials, etc. They lost me for about 15 yrs for this reason.   I putted with the original Tyrellium Santa Fe from 1996 for about 6 yrs, then switched to an OG Studio 1.5.  Those older putters felt so much better and different than the putters from ~2005-2016 or so, the GSS models.  The GSS material was tinny, too metallic/clicky in feel for me, maybe the balls of that era had something to do with it... I went to Odyssey during these years, using the first #7 then the white hot #7 until the insert wore out and started peeling and was unplayable.   

Went to have a fitting thinking Mizuno M-Craft V or IV or ER2, on a whim I tried the 2019/2020 Studio Select Flowback 5.5, felt like my old Studio 1.5 but stable like the #7.  The numbers were great, dropped -1* loft and -1.5* lie and it was money. It's been my gamer for almost 2 yrs.  No more messing with inserts...

If you're going to plunk down $300-$600 or more for a putter, and like most of us here, occasionally indulge in more putters, best to get a fitting.  This will help you weed out what putter type works or won't work for your stroke or tendencies.  Even if you think, oh I only putt with mallets or I only putt with Newport style blades, a fitting would go a long way to both improving your putting and giving you a data-driven blueprint on what type of putters you should be ho'ing  if you're so inclined, LOL!!!  Once you know your numbers, loft/lie/hosel type/swingweight/grip type, ho'ing for something that checks all the boxes will be more efficient and you'll come to your gamer sooner, regardless of brand.

 

 

 

 

 

Driver:  Taylormade SIM2 10.5 OG Motore F3 70x with TP 1.5*  tip - 1 notch to lower

3W: Srixon ZX 15*, HZRDUS Smoke Black HandCrafted 6.0 

5W: Callaway Rogue Sub Zero 18* TC serial, HZRDUS Yellow  70g

4i: Srixon ZU85 23*, Recoil F4 95S

5i: Srixon ZU85 26*, Recoil F4 95X

6-PW:  Callaway Apex MB 2021, Project X IO 6.0

Wedges: Vokey SM8 Blk 50-08F, SM8 56-08M (55*), Vokey SM8 WedgeWorks 60 T (61*)

Putter: Scotty Cameron Special Select Flowback 5.5, Pistolini Grip

Ball: 2019 Taylormade TP5X (sometimes Pro-V1x left dash)

Bag:  Titleist Players 4 Stadry

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2 hours ago, eternalfear00 said:

The ball you use and the groove depth have way more to do with feel than the material used. 

Metals, face thickness, and mill mark depth/thickness all influence the sound/feel of a putter. 

 

2 hours ago, Riverboat said:

Not going to argue, but no other putter I've used feels as good as this one. Nonmilled steel faces have always been too clicky and hot, and as I said, most inserts have felt mushy, spongy. Could be that the milling reduces the amount of metal actually contacting the face which gives me the perfect in between feel, but it both feels and sounds soft but not dead. 

 Not sure what you mean by a non milled face;  do you just mean insert putters?   Milling patterns vary greatly as do face thicknesses both of which make the ball sound clicky or muted.   The amount of metal that contacting the ball actually influences ball speed and feel.   This is essentially how the Evnroll putters work.   Feel is definitely a personal thing 

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Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15* set  to 16.5* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 816H1 19* set at 18* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  21*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 5-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :callaway-small: 54-10S   :cleveland-small: 588  58-12
Putter:  logo-horizontal-black.svg Directed Force 2.1

Backups:  :bobby-grace-1: 6330, :taylormade-small:TM-180, :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, Bellum Winmore 787, :seemore-small: mFGP2

 

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

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