MGS Beef with Rick Shiels? He addresses on his new podcast

[VtheGNMan]

This was news to me.  There is reported to be a beef with MGS and Rick Shiels?  He addresses it in his latest podcast.  

 

[cnosil]

52 minutes ago, VtheGNMan said:

This was news to me.  There is reported to be a beef with MGS and Rick Shiels?  He addresses it in his latest podcast.  

 

Have a time reference?  Dont want to listen to the entire podcast 

update:  the referenced discussion starts at about the 42:00 mark.

 I get Rick’s point and it does seem valid, but I personally wouldn’t say it is specifically a beef between MGS and Rick.  IMO, it is more of a beef between MGS and people that compare subjective reviews to the MGS reviews.  Rick happened to be included because of a response on a blog post that referenced his name.   

[VtheGNMan]

1 hour ago, cnosil said:

Have a time reference?  Dont want to listen to the entire podcast 

update:  the referenced discussion starts at about the 42:00 mark.

 I get Rick’s point and it does seem valid, but I personally wouldn’t say it is specifically a beef between MGS and Rick.  IMO, it is more of a beef between MGS and people that compare subjective reviews to the MGS reviews.  Rick happened to be included because of a response on a blog post that referenced his name.   

I agree.  I think there is a mutual respect between Shiels and MGS.  I think the comments tied them together.   Or at least Shiels has openly commented about the respect he has for MGS and especially their thorough testing.  

[Middler]

I didn't know this had happened and I'm surprised. Although MRHOGAN is presumably not affiliated with MGS, the reply certainly appears to be. Frankly I am surprised they'd directly name and go after Rick Shiels like that - to what end? NONE of the successful YouTube experts will ever say anything bad about ANY product directly, that's a given - that's why I don't use/watch them often. Rick Shiels is not at all unique in that respect.

And there's no way we could know how many/few shots YouTubers take, no one would want to watch more than 5-10 if that. How many shots do MGS Most Wanted testers take with each club before moving on the next?

[Kansas King]

21 hours ago, Middler said:

I didn't know this had happened and I'm surprised. Although MRHOGAN is presumably not affiliated with MGS, the reply certainly appears to be. Frankly I am surprised they'd directly name and go after Rick Shiels like that - to what end? NONE of the successful YouTube experts will ever say anything bad about ANY product directly, that's a given - that's why I don't use/watch them often. Rick Shiels is not at all unique in that respect.

And there's no way we could know how many/few shots YouTubers take, no one would want to watch more than 5-10 if that. How many shots do MGS Most Wanted testers take with each club before moving on the next?

I've honestly lost a little love for MGS over the last couple years. I think they generally do good work and I support them and have donated in the past but I get this sense that they are trying to do more than they set out to do. What started as a small group of hard working people doing independent reviews has turned into a bunch of sponsored articles. I know I'm certainly being overly harsh when I say that because I don't think that is their intent, it's just the optics of their articles have gotten worse, especially since they started the We Tried It series. While I'm happy the MGS staff has obviously developed good relationships with OEM staffs, the optics make it appear that it is spilling over into their work and independence. I think going after Rick Shiels is nonsense for a publication like MGS. He is an independent Youtuber that had an average experience with a new product, who cares? I don't think MGS should. If MGS feels they should defend manufacturers from Youtubers, then I guess I had a misunderstanding of what MGS is about.

In the end I currently support MGS and truly appreciate what they do. However, I think they need to take a hard look at how they present information and do what they can to maintain independence. I know that MGS is never going to be 100% independent. I don't know that they could afford to buy all the clubs they test and I'm not saying they should. However, regardless of how independent they are, the optics of what they do is what matters. The optics of MGS going to bat for a large OEM like TM is not a good look IMO. I'm only harsh about independence because my line of work revolves around true independence and risk governance. A lot people don't have a true understanding of what real independence and risk governance actually is. 

Edited January 12, 2022 by Kansas King

[Golfspy_Lukes]

26 minutes ago, Riverboat said:

I'll be a little harsher. MGS far too often come off as fan boys for the big OEMs. The We Tried It is very similar to the major golf publications, just a rehash of the OEM propaganda with very little critical information thrown in. And defending them the way you referenced certainly gives the bad appearance that the relationships with the big boy companies is getting a little too cozy. 

That’s funny, because I hear just the opposite from other people. That MGS hates Taylormade and Callaway and loves the smaller companies 

[RickyBobby_PR]

2 hours ago, Kansas King said:

them and have donated in the past but I get this sense that they are trying to do more than they set out to do. What started as a small group of hard working people doing independent reviews has turned into a bunch of sponsored articles. I know I'm certainly being overly harsh when I say that because I don't think that is their intent, it's just the optics of their articles have gotten worse, especially since they started the We Tried It series.

So a company can’t grow expand what their initial mission was?

There’s lots of brands that have affiliate links and do articles on that. Doesn’t necessarily create a bias and those who want to find something wrong with it will and then make a comment on a forum about not liking it. 

15 minutes ago, jlukes said:

That’s funny, because I hear just the opposite from other people. That MGS hates Taylormade and Callaway and loves the smaller companies 

People have been saying some crazy stuff to justify their positions lately 

[STUDque]

Obviously not as plugged in as I used to be, but that blog reply strikes me as an odd shot to take. Why call out Rick unless you’re trying to get his attention? Makes me feel like they’re falling on the wrong side of the adage that you don’t lift yourself up by tearing down others. 

[chisag]

3 hours ago, Kansas King said:

The optics of MGS going to bat for a large OEM like TM is not a good look IMO.

 

...  I love MGS testing and I love Shiels reviews. That said, I do not agree with everything either one of them say or report. It is always the job of the consumer to be informed and then come to their own conclusions, hopefully by a fitting or at least on course testing. I was particularly surprised by the love fest MGS showed Bob Parsons when they "interviewed" him but maybe that is just because I wanted them to put him on the hot seat for his most irritating commercials ever made and they basically kissed his butt. That said if I were a big Parsons fan I may have loved the interview which is my point. We all have bias.

... But to address the defending of TM, it seemed to me they were defending the Stealth technology as a major advancement in club head design and not TM as they never even mentioned their name in the above example, which is exactly what I am looking for from MGS. It is rare for a new technology to change the way clubs are designed, but it certainly happens. Slot in the sole and thin faced irons with a polymer type filling are examples. I think it is fair to assume a company that has the top driver in the market does not completely abandon titanium and introduce something radically different without it being better. As always how much better is the big question. Which is why I appreciate Shiels and MGS's POV as they are probably a harbinger of exactly what all golfers out there may experience. One guy will testify they gain yards and dispersion with their Stealth driver and the next guy will say it is no better than their SIM2 or what ever titanium driver they were playing.  

[Kansas King]

2 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

So a company can’t grow expand what their initial mission was?

There’s lots of brands that have affiliate links and do articles on that. Doesn’t necessarily create a bias and those who want to find something wrong with it will and then make a comment on a forum about not liking it.

I think MGS can do what they want, but as someone who has supported MGS in the past based on their mission of being independent and unbiased, growing the company with a bunch of sponsored or affiliated articles doesn't really do it for me. Then you throw in them defending TM and that doesn't really seam to align with the idea of being unbiased and independent. 

I don't want to overly bash MGS, I think they are well-meaning and do legitimately good work. I want them to succeed as I appreciate their testing and I appreciate them hosting this forum. My fear is that MGS is creeping closer to being the next Golf Digest. I think there are lots of ways for MGS to grow but it is harder if independence is going to remain a genuine part of their mission.

[MadDad]

Regardless of your belief in their own results, and or what you think their feelings about TM or big OEMs, or about the advancement of technologies... (they've stood on soap boxes for years stating that gains are minimal and marketing is just embellishment) the person that replied to the original poster is an uneducated ass hat... and I can't imagine he/she/ they speak for the whole team. One thing MGS was always known for, or at least self actualized as, was a hub for unbiased information. They should know better.

They essentially said that Rick, given his reach, influence, and popularity, isn't doing a good enough job and is misrepresenting product by not putting in adequate time to do it justice.

That is strictly an insult, and that person sounded no better than a fanboy who was either paid or influenced to say what they said... while simultaneously not know what the hell they're saying.

Big time egg on MGS now... 

 

[Clay5477]

On 1/11/2022 at 10:14 AM, Middler said:

I didn't know this had happened and I'm surprised. Although MRHOGAN is presumably not affiliated with MGS, the reply certainly appears to be. Frankly I am surprised they'd directly name and go after Rick Shiels like that - to what end? NONE of the successful YouTube experts will ever say anything bad about ANY product directly, that's a given - that's why I don't use/watch them often. Rick Shiels is not at all unique in that respect.

And there's no way we could know how many/few shots YouTubers take, no one would want to watch more than 5-10 if that. How many shots do MGS Most Wanted testers take with each club before moving on the next?

Do you have a link to this MGS quote? I can't find the original post. Thanks!

[Kansas King]

36 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

...  I love MGS testing and I love Shiels reviews. That said, I do not agree with everything either one of them say or report. It is always the job of the consumer to be informed and then come to their own conclusions, hopefully by a fitting or at least on course testing. I was particularly surprised by the love fest MGS showed Bob Parsons when they "interviewed" him but maybe that is just because I wanted them to put him on the hot seat for his most irritating commercials ever made and they basically kissed his butt. That said if I were a big Parsons fan I may have loved the interview which is my point. We all have bias.

... But to address the defending of TM, it seemed to me they were defending the Stealth technology as a major advancement in club head design and not TM as they never even mentioned their name in the above example, which is exactly what I am looking for from MGS. It is rare for a new technology to change the way clubs are designed, but it certainly happens. Slot in the sole and thin faced irons with a polymer type filling are examples. I think it is fair to assume a company that has the top driver in the market does not completely abandon titanium and introduce something radically different without it being better. As always how much better is the big question. Which is why I appreciate Shiels and MGS's POV as they are probably a harbinger of exactly what all golfers out there may experience. One guy will testify they gain yards and dispersion with their Stealth driver and the next guy will say it is no better than their SIM2 or what ever titanium driver they were playing.  

I understand that everyone has some inherent biases but the third core belief for MGS is being "proudly unbiased". I'm actually okay with nice interviews and I love some of the industry research MGS does. I'm not saying MGS has to be a negative nancy every time they publish something. I'm glad MGS covers new products and gives us the information that the company has released. I'm fine with all that. I just think they need to be careful about how things look. It's all about the optics.

I don't believe MGS should go to bat for TM, regardless of how great their technology claims to be or how much time they claim to have worked on something. MGS commenting about a Rick Shiels post defending the new stealth drivers puts a little cloudiness as to how MGS can claim they are doing independent testing when they aren't letting a true independent test do the talking for them. While it may be true that the new Stealth driver is a better performer for the staff at MGS, let the actual testing do the talking. The optics of the MGS comment is poor regardless of intent and it potentially tarnishes the trust that so many of us have. This comment alone will not ruin MGS for me and I don't think it will ruin it for anyone else but as someone who values independence, stuff like this starts to make the whole independence claim a little more cloudy.

[John Harte]

Quote is in the comments here: https://mygolfspy.com/taylormade-stealth-drivers-with-carbon-fiber-faces/#comments

Still up at the moment... 

[Saturday Morning Sherpa]

Like all other internet boards, it is easy to spew words when "talking" to a keyboard or go pro camera.  All of society has forgotten how to address issues/opinions/feelings in a face to face conversation or debate.

[Middler]

4 hours ago, Riverboat said:

I'll be a little harsher. MGS far too often come off as fan boys for the big OEMs. The We Tried It is very similar to the major golf publications, just a rehash of the OEM propaganda with very little critical information thrown in. And defending them the way you referenced certainly gives the bad appearance that the relationships with the big boy companies is getting a little too cozy. 

3 hours ago, jlukes said:

That’s funny, because I hear just the opposite from other people. That MGS hates Taylormade and Callaway and loves the smaller companies 

+2. MGS most wanted has given credit to many non-major OEMs, Evnroll and Snell got a lot of love here and still do. Tommy Armour has also gotten a lot of notice here too. Scotty Cameron definitely has not. And MGS seriously wounded Callaway ball quality a couple years ago, and they took notice (eventually). There are countless examples of MGS not giving preference to the big guys. Compared to Golf Digest and all the ad supported sources, MGS is still head and shoulders above the rest. I read MGS along with other sources, sometimes I’m in agreement but not always.

And MGS is absolutely entitled to make a buck for the unique services they provide. Where else can you get the same bang for your buck in the golf equipment reporting world? Let’s not let the perfect be the enemy of the good…

[Kansas King]

1 minute ago, Saturday Morning Sherpa said:

Like all other internet boards, it is easy to spew words when "talking" to a keyboard or go pro camera.  All of society has forgotten how to address issues/opinions/feelings in a face to face conversation or debate.

No doubt. I'm going to admit that I'm feeling a little keyboard warrior-esque today but I would also say that I would still support my thoughts if I were discussing it in person with someone from the MGS staff. I'm also guilty of being overly harsh from behind the keyboard from time to time. I kind of like what that one organization 60 Minutes was showing where they would have two people with very different political leanings sit down and have to have a conversation about the issues for an hour. The outcomes while talking in person and words being typed behind a keyboard are dramatically different. 

I would say though, that if we don't like something we're seeing, it's important to share that feedback. 

 

[chisag]

26 minutes ago, Kansas King said:

MGS commenting about a Rick Shiels post defending the new stealth drivers puts a little cloudiness as to how MGS can claim they are doing independent testing when they aren't letting a true independent test do the talking for them. While it may be true that the new Stealth driver is a better performer for the staff at MGS, let the actual testing do the talking. The optics of the MGS comment is poor regardless of intent and it potentially tarnishes the trust that so many of us have. This comment alone will not ruin MGS for me and I don't think it will ruin it for anyone else but as someone who values independence, stuff like this starts to make the whole independence claim a little more cloudy.

 

...   In comments both under reviews and on social media someone replying for MGS can get very defensive and disrespectful, so I rarely read those. When I do read them I like it much better when say "Tony" replies instead of "MGS" replies because I don't know who that is. However, we disagree on defending technology in a review and comment, but I respect your opinion and I am not trying to change it. And they did it very poorly, attacking Shiels in the process, especially the 5-10 cheap shot line. Going to the PGA Show and hitting everything once around the entire range on Demo Day, then doubling back and hitting what I thought was only the best new products took the entire day. I would often follow up with individual fittings at the actual Show, so very extensive personal testing, evaluating and talking to designers/engineers/VPs before writing my review. It was an insane amount of work and I did it for the reader as my trip came out of my own pocket. I was often trashed on WRX as a "shill" when I wrote a glowing review and it was very difficult to let the review stand and not defend it or the technology*. Granted "MGS" took a shot at another reviewer, not a comment from a reader so that crosses the line imo. But had they skipped the first 2 lines and  just defended the fact that everyone at MGS testing Stealth had a personal best in ball speed I think that would have sufficed.  

* As an example when TaylorMade introduced Rocketballz fairway woods with the claim of 17 more yards (I gained 14yds which was HUGE) they could have claimed more because the higher swing speed players were gaining as much as 25 yds. They showed me the testing but ended up using several different swing speed categories to get a figure golfers would be more comfortable hearing... 17 yards. WRX readers, like jr high school kids were more consumed with making fun of the Rocketballz name than the actual Technology but more than a few called 17 more yards an outright lie and of course they hadn't even seen the fairway wood slot technology left alone hit one. It is very frustrating when you put in the time, money and sweat only to have someone that is completely ignorant attack your findings.  

[manderson831]

Just my humble opinion but excellent comments all the way around. I do enjoy the work that MGS, Golf Digest, Rick Shiels and others provide on Golf Content and equipment. With that being said, I've always taken the approach that I need to properly test the equipment, apparel, and balls myself to see what works best for me. What may be one man's trash, is another's treasure. 

[Btshiloh@yahoo.com]

Very disappointed in MGS. If you are going to call someone out at least have the courage to identify yourself. I respect Rick’s opinions but they would not preclude my trying something out for myself. These “everyone had speed gains”  statements don’t  mean much to me either. I do not believe any of your staffers hit the ball as poorly as I do. “Your results may differ!” Rick could have said “contrary to the OEM whores over at MGS, I saw no gains at all, don’t waste your money!” But he did not say that. Good for him. 

Edited January 12, 2022 by Btshiloh@yahoo.com
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