MGS Beef with Rick Shiels? He addresses on his new podcast

[Tyler86]

Ricks testing numbers, from his personal test of the stealth vs SIM2, are available to see. I sure hope EVERY member of MGS testing group’s numbers will be available for us to see. Showing the “personal best ball speeds”, Or their AVERAGE numbers of their run with the Stealth vs Sim2.

Edited January 13, 2022 by Tyler86

[cnosil]

31 minutes ago, Tyler86 said:

Ricks testing numbers, from his personal test of the stealth vs SIM2, are available to see. I sure hope EVERY member of MGS testing group’s numbers will be available for us to see. Showing the “personal best ball speeds”, Or their AVERAGE numbers of their run with the Stealth vs Sim2.

You already know the answer to this;  they don't share the individual shot results from the individual testers.   We don't have our  personal best ball speeds;  I don't know mine to even state if it did beat my personal best.   We also don't test prior years drivers during the testing so it is impossible to compare without creating another test.  I will state that the Stealth's (there are  multiple models)  I have tested did not generate my fastest individual ball speed for the drivers.   I personally found the Stealth to be very consistent with ball speed across the face.

[RollingGreens]

Let the data do the talking. Unfortunately for Ric he comes off a salesman vs showing a piece of equipment, and his channel has become a bigger selling or purchasing point for some golfers… he generally takes the neutral position, for the most part picks the good shots which tend to bias vs the overall body of work of hundreds of shots it may take to give a full review beneficial for all. He is more of an influencer vs reviewer I would say in todays social media world

[GolfSpy_SHARK]

@chisagto me has the best point (quite often I find this I might add) in the end it’s up to us as consumers to do our own due diligence. My wife and I had this same exact discussion last week (we were talking about at home Covid test kits).it doesn’t really matter what anyone says….MGS…..Tony……Harry……Rick or anyone. You can gather that information but in the end we as consumers need to make an informed decision, in this case what equipment is best for you.
 

Shoutout to @bens197 for giving me a chuckle 

[Tyler86]

40 minutes ago, cnosil said:

You already know the answer to this;  they don't share the individual shot results from the individual testers.   We don't have our  personal best ball speeds;  I don't know mine to even state if it did beat my personal best.   We also don't test prior years drivers during the testing so it is impossible to compare without creating another test.  I will state that the Stealth's (there are  multiple models)  I have tested did not generate my fastest individual ball speed for the drivers.   I personally found the Stealth to be very consistent with ball speed across the face.

The user “MyGolfSpy” claimed that EVERY TESTER “recorded personal speed records”.    After poking holes in Ricks testing protocol. No disrespect, love MGS!

[John Bachman]

4 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

That’s pretty much all rick hits when he reviews. Mgs pointed out that they do more intensive testing and have tons of data points. The amount of data they collect from one person in the most wanted test out does what rick does, now add in all the most wanted testers for drivers. The data blows ricks testing out of the water.

 

If you listened to Rick’s cast, he made it quite clear that he hit well over 100 balls. They only show a few for the videos. I’m not taking sides between the two but he did explain his testing methods. 

[cnosil]

14 minutes ago, Tyler86 said:

The user “MyGolfSpy” claimed that EVERY TESTER “recorded personal speed records”.    After poking holes in Ricks testing protocol. No disrespect, love MGS!

Incorrect.   The statement was:  'what I can tell you is that I have never seen a single product in the driver category produce ball speed personal records for EVERY staff member of MGS that tested the product."   The majority of the  most wanted testers are not staff members.  I am a most wanted tester and am not a staff member.  

[Tyler86]

4 minutes ago, John Bachman said:

If you listened to Rick’s cast, he made it quite clear that he hit well over 100 balls. They only show a few for the videos. I’m not taking sides between the two but he did explain his testing methods. 

Not taking side either. Just surprised by the MGS comment that was made a little, and clearly Rick was pithhed. I believe he also said that he went and hit it at Taylormade’s facility with one of their top fitters. I think he also asked why he wasnt seeing higher ball speeds and they blamed it on cold balls. But i may have misinterpreted his podcast. 

[Tyler86]

2 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Incorrect.   The statement was:  'what I can tell you is that I have never seen a single product in the driver category produce ball speed personal records for EVERY staff member of MGS that tested the product."   The majority of the  most wanted testers are not staff members.  I am a most wanted tester and am not a staff member.  

Then what is a “First” that deserves “Kudos”? Its quite possible that im misinterpreting this, my reading comprehension isn't great l, lol. But to me it reads that they’re claiming that the stealth was the first to do that. 

[cnosil]

7 minutes ago, Tyler86 said:

Then what is a “First” that deserves “Kudos”? Its quite possible that im misinterpreting this, my reading comprehension isn't great l, lol. But to me it reads that they’re claiming that the stealth was the first to do that. 

Every Staff member would the be MGS Staff members that tested the driver.   as I mentioned the most wanted TESTERS are not all staff members.    I didn't get to go to TaylorMade and test the product and I am not a staff member but I am a most wanted tester.  My guess on the staff members would be Tony, Chris, Phillip, Harry, and Bennett as they are the ones shown in the MGS video clips that were on social media. 

[Tyler86]

2 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Every Staff member would the be MGS Staff members that tested the driver.   as I mentioned the most wanted TESTERS are not all staff members.    I didn't get to go to TaylorMade and test the product and I am not a staff member but I am a most wanted tester.  My guess on the staff members would be Tony, Chris, Phillip, Harry, and Bennett as they are the ones shown in the MGS video clips that were on social media. 

Ah. Fair enough.

[Moose4282]

Man I cant stand Rick Sheils, Im glad someone finally called him out. Theres people who believe all the hype every year and theres people who are completely skeptical of everything (like sheils). Imo, he he was biased going into his test (all his tests really). Leave the judgements to someone who actually understands the data, and science of whats going on. I think MGS claims were a tad inflated but multiple people have shown an increase in BS, particularly retention on mishits. I tested the stealth against several drivers (no SIM2) and it didn't blow it away but it did give me my highest average by about 1mph and highest overall BS by 2mph. 

[Quigleyd]

Interesting conversation. I am not a huge Rick fan. I what his stuff time for entertainment not for information. In the info side he regularly gets things wrong. 
 

I love the MGS articles. I send more time reading those then walking on the forum. I can see where people may think that MGS are “bought” by OEMs. I don’t k ow if that is true or not. Don’t really care. Barba is the best golf writer out there. The info and test are super thorough and I look forward to them..

[MNUte]

2 minutes ago, Moose4282 said:

Man I cant stand Rick Sheils, Im glad someone finally called him out. Theres people who believe all the hype every year and theres people who are completely skeptical of everything (like sheils). Imo, he he was biased going into his test (all his tests really). Leave the judgements to someone who actually understands the data, and science of whats going on. I think MGS claims were a tad inflated but multiple people have shown an increase in BS, particularly retention on mishits. I tested the stealth against several drivers (no SIM2) and it didn't blow it away but it did give me my highest average by about 1mph and highest overall BS by 2mph. 

After a 1 mph average increase and highest overall of 2mph, your takeaway from this is to bash Rick?

Regardless of whether he's your flavor or not, he's a single data source, one of many. You're right, he tends to be a fairly skeptical source. But so are plenty of people. And the majority of reviewers who are public with their results didn't show much increase. As a countering data point, Alex Etches showed significant increases. So you review the sources and take any particular one with a grain of salt.

Rick said that to him there was no difference in ball speeds. His numbers reflect that. And again, many also show no or negligible differences. You yourself state that you think MGS's claims are a tad inflated and that for you the speeds were fairly negligible (I'm assuming you're over 100 mph ball speed and so the 1 to 2mph increase is at most 1 to 2 % increases). So how does all of that that justify the MYGOLFSPY Response and some of the low blow statements. Similarly, how does that justify your comments that his skepticism equates to him not understanding data or science?

 

[John Bachman]

1 minute ago, MNUte said:

After a 1 mph average increase and highest overall of 2mph, your takeaway from this is to bash Rick?

Regardless of whether he's your flavor or not, he's a single data source, one of many. You're right, he tends to be a fairly skeptical source. But so are plenty of people. And the majority of reviewers who are public with their results didn't show much increase. As a countering data point, Alex Etches showed significant increases. So you review the sources and take any particular one with a grain of salt.

Rick said that to him there was no difference in ball speeds. His numbers reflect that. And again, many also show no or negligible differences. You yourself state that you think MGS's claims are a tad inflated and that for you the speeds were fairly negligible (I'm assuming you're over 100 mph ball speed and so the 1 to 2mph increase is at most 1 to 2 % increases). So how does all of that that justify the MYGOLFSPY Response and some of the low blow statements. Similarly, how does that justify your comments that his skepticism equates to him not understanding data or science?

 

My thoughts exactly. Whether it be Shiels, Crossfield, Newton or whoever, what makes him think that they don’t understand any of the data? Many of them do fittings plus I’m sure they understand their own numbers. Like you said, this is their review on how the club performs for them. Rick may tend to be on the negative side, but it’s much better than reinforcing all the company’s hype. 

[Middler]

11 hours ago, Moose4282 said:

Man I cant stand Rick Sheils, Im glad someone finally called him out. Theres people who believe all the hype every year and theres people who are completely skeptical of everything (like sheils). Imo, he he was biased going into his test (all his tests really). Leave the judgements to someone who actually understands the data, and science of whats going on. I think MGS claims were a tad inflated but multiple people have shown an increase in BS, particularly retention on mishits. I tested the stealth against several drivers (no SIM2) and it didn't blow it away but it did give me my highest average by about 1mph and highest overall BS by 2mph. 

I don’t disagree, but that’s the lane he’s in - with 2 million subscribers - that's how he makes his living! Name one golf YouTube channel that does reviews who isn’t very reluctant to bash any product? They all do teaser video titles ‘Is This Club Any Good?’ and in the end they use weasel words to say it the club is good, give it a try…

That said, I’m not sure why MGS went after Rick when they all do it on YouTube. I’ve watched all of them, though less and less these days as they almost never say anything definitive.

[Bucky CC]

9 hours ago, Tyler86 said:

Not taking side either. Just surprised by the MGS comment that was made a little, and clearly Rick was pithhed. I believe he also said that he went and hit it at Taylormade’s facility with one of their top fitters. I think he also asked why he wasnt seeing higher ball speeds and they blamed it on cold balls. But i may have misinterpreted his podcast. 

"They blamed it on cold balls."  Happens to the best of us.  

[MNUte]

58 minutes ago, Bucky CC said:

"They blamed it on cold balls."  Happens to the best of us.  

Taylormade genuinely trying to be the people's company by prepping our excuses! I mean, if the balls are too cold in California, it'll be perfect for SaltLake. Thanks for the justification TM! 

[russtopherb]

Man this feels like a lot of nothing.

[TR1PTIK]

(Video Link included for time references - rather than referring to the full podcast video)

 

Ok, I'm a little late to this only just having come across the RS video myself this morning, but I went back to the comment section before watching the whole thing because I knew right away what they were talking about. After reading both the original comment, the MGS reply, and hearing Rick's side of the story here's what I take away.

MGS probably should not have taken a shot at Rick like that (nor should they about any YouTuber), but I can't say I fully blame them. All we know about the majority of these YT reviews is what we see. Very rarely (if ever) does the reviewer go into detail about how they (A) were fit for the club, or (B) how they conduct their testing off camera (i.e. how many shots, what environment/location, etc., etc.).

In the case of Rick Shiels specifically, I myself have called into question his "test" methods because several years ago now (when he and Pete were sharing studio space) Rick was on a journey to beef up his own testing and data collection to the point he even mentioned in at least one video about hiring someone to help with new test protocols to make his reviews better. Unfortunately, I do not know of (and if someone has seen something I have not please share) any follow-up video in which he states that work has been completed and go on to explain what the new test procedure would be. Indeed, what I saw in his videos was a slow degradation in his test methods as he and Pete began to separate a bit and then they both left the studio. Now, that isn't to say his test methods didn't improve or they didn't at least remain the same. However, he never seemed to address that as far as I know and newer videos began to strip those details out almost entirely to the point that now we just hear, "I took X club out to the course, and collected data with GC Quad in the studio" with no specifics about number of balls hit or any adjustments he might have made to achieve the numbers he's getting on the LM.

To Rick's credit, his response to the MGS comment makes it clear he does spend much more time testing equipment than we previously knew or otherwise might have thought. I also applaud him for taking his own GC Quad to Taylormade and for controlling his environment by stepping off the mats and hitting from grass - something every golfer doing a fit should do if it's available.

Where (IMO) he gets it wrong is by (A) not taking his gamer - 5:57, (B) not allowing the fitters to fully fit him - 9:07, and (C) not realizing that when MGS talk about personal best ball speeds they mean with any club/any ball; that's why it's a personal best.

It's also important to take note of what he says at the 12:05 mark because I don't think this point is represented well in his videos. Yes, he almost always suggests everyone should go get fit and try the products he reviews but it's his review. Everything he does during his review videos is geared toward him and how he likes to play, what he likes to see, etc., etc.

Finally, one point he does make during this discussion that I would be curious to learn more about from the MGS staff regards the golf ball. It has been said in at least one, if not several NPG podcasts that you should fit the golf ball to the irons and the driver to the golf ball. I'd be curious what MGS staff play and how Stealth performs with those balls.

[cnosil]

44 minutes ago, TR1PTIK said:

 Finally, one point he does make during this discussion that I would be curious to learn more about from the MGS staff regards the golf ball. It has been said in at least one, if not several NPG podcasts that you should fit the golf ball to the irons and the driver to the golf ball. I'd be curious what MGS staff play and how Stealth performs with those balls.

Piecing together information from various MGS sources:

• Tony - V1 Left Dash based on MGS profile and everything he says
• Chris - V1x based on profile, but V1 left dot based on Titleist fitting
• Harry - Srixon based on profile, left dot based on Titleist fitting.  Last night I heard him say he wasn’t playing Srixon so I’ll assume the left dot
• Bennett - Bridgestone B XS based on prifile, V1x based on Titleist fitting
• Phillip - Z Star,  V1x based on titleist fitting.  

Most Wanted Results will be based on ProV1

[TR1PTIK]

2 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Piecing together information from various MGS sources:

• Tony - V1 Left Dash based on MGS profile and everything he says
• Chris - V1x based on profile, but V1 left dot based on Titleist fitting
• Harry - Srixon based on profile, left dot based on Titleist fitting.  Last night I heard him say he wasn’t playing Srixon so I’ll assume the left dot
• Bennett - Bridgestone B XS based on prifile, V1x based on Titleist fitting
• Phillip - Z Star,  V1x based on titleist fitting.  

Most Wanted Results will be based on ProV1

Thanks, other than Tony I wasn't sure. Tony's the only one I know of who's "in a relationship" with his golf ball. 

[bens197]

 

13 hours ago, Lacassem said:

@chisagto me has the best point (quite often I find this I might add) in the end it’s up to us as consumers to do our own due diligence. My wife and I had this same exact discussion last week (we were talking about at home Covid test kits).it doesn’t really matter what anyone says….MGS…..Tony……Harry……Rick or anyone. You can gather that information but in the end we as consumers need to make an informed decision, in this case what equipment is best for you.
 

Shoutout to @bens197 for giving me a chuckle 

Completely agree dude.  Sam's wisdom is a recurring theme in many posts.

And my pleasure...this one wrote itself from page 1...

[Tsecor]

is this MGS of GWR-x??
 

hard to tell right now.......

 

stay MGS!!!  dont turn into the other site in these forums

[TR1PTIK]

I've finally made it through all the posts here and I know you've gone back and forth with @RickyBobby_PR on these points. Just thought I'd share my two cents.

On 1/12/2022 at 9:45 AM, Kansas King said:

What started as a small group of hard working people doing independent reviews has turned into a bunch of sponsored articles. I know I'm certainly being overly harsh when I say that because I don't think that is their intent, it's just the optics of their articles have gotten worse, especially since they started the We Tried It series.

On 1/12/2022 at 9:45 AM, Kansas King said:

I know that MGS is never going to be 100% independent. I don't know that they could afford to buy all the clubs they test and I'm not saying they should. However, regardless of how independent they are, the optics of what they do is what matters. The optics of MGS going to bat for a large OEM like TM is not a good look IMO.

To start, I think you kind of answered yourself here. The expansion of MGS capability (new staff, Ball Lab, Most Wanted Tests - especially the ball test which requires renting time at a facility, the equipment, and an engineer or test technician) means the expansion of revenue avenues. The only way MGS could ever be fully independent is to be 100% donor funded, and I don't think that would ever generate enough money to do what they do. 

When you look at the MGS Mission, their goal is to be unbiased by not accepting deals from major OEM's who actually have enough money and sway to steer the conversation. They could probably go a little further to clarify #4, but even at the very end the stipulation is "big companies". 

For anyone who hasn't seen the MGS Mission Statement: Our Mission | MyGolfSpy

I'll also simply say I agree with @RickyBobby_PR that MGS was defending the hard work and dedication, that has resulted in a (potentially) revolutionary product, materials, and manufacturing process. I don't think they showed PXG this kind of reception (maybe they did, and I just can't remember), but they have shown similar appreciation for Cobra's advancements in 3D printing. 

I understand your perspective, but I don't think it's wild for MGS to step up to the plate and acknowledge when an OEM does something that could truly change the equipment we use to play the game or how it can be tailored to the individual golfer. I think Rick's review undersold this advancement in technology and that's ultimately what MGS is defending. I think it could have been handled better, but it is what it is now. Surely if it's that big of a deal, MGS and RS will communicate directly and resolve the issue - at least that's what I hope would happen.

[LICC]

On 1/11/2022 at 1:14 PM, Middler said:

I didn't know this had happened and I'm surprised. Although MRHOGAN is presumably not affiliated with MGS, the reply certainly appears to be. Frankly I am surprised they'd directly name and go after Rick Shiels like that - to what end? NONE of the successful YouTube experts will ever say anything bad about ANY product directly, that's a given - that's why I don't use/watch them often. Rick Shiels is not at all unique in that respect.

And there's no way we could know how many/few shots YouTubers take, no one would want to watch more than 5-10 if that. How many shots do MGS Most Wanted testers take with each club before moving on the next?

If this response was from an official MGS representative, then this is a black mark for MGS. The 5-10 shots comment was silly and insulting Shiels seems unwarranted and petty.

[LICC]

17 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Your right they don’t have a monopoly on it but they amount of data they have blows every forum and YouTube/social media reviewer out of the water. It’s not even close in what mgs does from reviews and testing. Ricks videos are almost predictable in what he will say. He’s also not going to out and our bash a company because he doesn’t want to end up like crossfields where he doesn’t get sent equipment to “review”. He will toe the line of negative and positives and that nothing is really that much better.

Those that are set in finding fault with something mgs says will read that into what was said in the reply. 

 

I don't understand this. Shiels hit over 120 balls on one day and then more the next. How many do you think he needs to hit to get enough data and experience to give an informed opinion. And I find his reviews aren't all the same. He gives his data and his impressions on feel, sound, accuracy, etc. and they differ for each video.

[chisag]

1 hour ago, TR1PTIK said:

MGS was defending the hard work and dedication, that has resulted in a (potentially) revolutionary product, materials, and manufacturing process. I don't think they showed PXG this kind of reception (maybe they did, and I just can't remember), but they have shown similar appreciation for Cobra's advancements in 3D printing. 

 

... So many love to claim all Marketing is Hype without substance. Of course Marketing is Hype by definition, but there is always at least some substance. How much substance is what we hope to find out in the review and then demo and find out if that substance applies to our game. I really don't think any OEM is producing a bad product in 2022 so a negative review is really difficult to find. But much more often than not, new products are not substantially better than what they are replacing. A slight uptick in ball speed, marginally higher MOI, 100rpm less/more spin, 4% more forgiving and many more improvements that will not have much if any impact on your shots or your scores. I keep saying this but most OEMs are not trying to sell you a this years driver if you own last years driver. They are trying to sell you a SIM2/Radspeed because it is a substantial improvement over your R1/F6.  I remember Titleist saying they do not recommend that original AP2 players upgrade to the new AP2's until the 4th generation because they did not want any customers buying the new AP2's and thinking they were duped, finding there was no difference in their performance on the course. Rare to come right out and say it because every OEM loves a fanboy that buys new products every year so they don't want to discourage them but also want to provide realistic expectations for their serious customers. It was the Titleist VP of Marketing that said "We want customers for life, not one product cycle."

... Going to the Show for the last 20 years I did find clubs that increased my enjoyment through a better feel, sound or look at address but I rarely found a product that made a difference in my play or my scores. When I did find something that was revolutionary I wanted to hype the he!! out of it so fellow golfers would at least demo one for themselves. I understand MGS wanting their readers to know Stealth is a revolutionary product because after so many products that are not really substantially different, barely better or a rehash of what already is, finding a bona fide new technology is pretty exciting. 

[TR1PTIK]

28 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... So many love to claim all Marketing is Hype without substance. Of course Marketing is Hype by definition, but there is always at least some substance. How much substance is what we hope to find out in the review and then demo and find out if that substance applies to our game. I really don't think any OEM is producing a bad product in 2022 so a negative review is really difficult to find. But much more often than not, new products are not substantially better than what they are replacing. A slight uptick in ball speed, marginally higher MOI, 100rpm less/more spin, 4% more forgiving and many more improvements that will not have much if any impact on your shots or your scores. I keep saying this but most OEMs are not trying to sell you a this years driver if you own last years driver. They are trying to sell you a SIM2/Radspeed because it is a substantial improvement over your R1/F6.  I remember Titleist saying they do not recommend that original AP2 players upgrade to the new AP2's until the 4th generation because they did not want any customers buying the new AP2's and thinking they were duped, finding there was no difference in their performance on the course. Rare to come right out and say it because every OEM loves a fanboy that buys new products every year so they don't want to discourage them but also want to provide realistic expectations for their serious customers. It was the Titleist VP of Marketing that said "We want customers for life, not one product cycle."

... Going to the Show for the last 20 years I did find clubs that increased my enjoyment through a better feel, sound or look at address but I rarely found a product that made a difference in my play or my scores. When I did find something that was revolutionary I wanted to hype the he!! out of it so felow golfers would at least demo one for themselves. I understand MGS wanting their readers to know Stealth is a revolutionary product because after so many products that are not really substantially different, barely better or a rehash of what already is, finding a bona fide new technology is pretty exciting. 

Absolutely agree with this perspective and I hope it didn't come off as though I think Stealth is going to be significantly better than anything else that comes out this year from a performance standpoint. I don't really think MGS Staff believes that either to be honest.

It's simply that revolutionary products which introduce new materials and manufacturing methods open up new doors and what we see 10 years down the line could be quite different as a result. Perhaps the whole "every MGS staffer that tested picked up ball speed" (I'm summarizing of course) is overstated. However, I get the excitement surrounding that and wanting to point it out. There was a lot of excitement about the Cobra F9 when it came out and while it did perform exceptionally well for some there were plenty of others who didn't see a benefit and experienced better performance from a different brand/model.

[RickyBobby_PR]

37 minutes ago, LICC said:

I don't understand this. Shiels hit over 120 balls on one day and then more the next. How many do you think he needs to hit to get enough data and experience to give an informed opinion. And I find his reviews aren't all the same. He gives his data and his impressions on feel, sound, accuracy, etc. and they differ for each video.

That still isn’t even close to the data that mgs has, which is what the mgs reply want pointing out as well as the type of analysis mgs does is far more in depth than Rick. 
 

Rick and his channel went from somewhat of a channel mixed with golf tips and swing reviews to more of an entertainment channel with more reviews and some change in his approach. Don’t fault him for it, he’s trying to monetize his channel and he’s more for the average golfer. I would rather watch a 10 min video from Michael newton on a product than Rick. 
 

once he really made this switch he doesn’t say anything negative that’s going to keep him from getting gear to test. So his reviews will always be down the middle. 
 

But again those that have some run with mgs on any issue are going to find it with their reply and inclusion of Rick. But you you replace Rick with a number of YouTube reviewers and it’s applicable