Middler Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 1 hour ago, LICC said: If this response was from an official MGS representative, then this is a black mark for MGS. The 5-10 shots comment was silly and insulting Shiels seems unwarranted and petty. I wouldn't think MGS would allow a comment on their website by a user named MYGOLFSPY that wasn't an official MGS rep. TR1PTIK 1 Quote Titleist TSR2 11° HZRDUS Red CB 50 6.0 w Lamkin UTx Midsize Titleist TSR2 16.5º HZRDUS Red 60 CB 6.0 & TSR2 21º HZRDUS Black 4G 70 6.0 w Lamkin UTx Midsize Mizuno JPX923 HMP 4-GW, T22 54.12WS, T22 58.04DC w Lamkin ST+2 Hybrid Midsize Evnroll EV5.3 Maxfli Tour & ProV1 Ping Pioneer - MGI Zip Navigator AT Payntr X 002 LE, Ecco Biom C4, FJ DryJoys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrokerAce Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 ...whoa, they sure stepped in it here. not the first time; won't be the last. MGoBlue100, MattWillGolf, Btshiloh@yahoo.com and 3 others 4 2 Quote Driver- Cobra Aerojet LS Woods- Cobra LTD 3w 15*, 5W 19*, F9 24* Irons- XXIO X (6-A) Wedges- Callaway Jaws Raw (54/58) Putter- Bettinardi BB56 Ball- Maxfli Tour X/Wilson Triad Buggy- Clicgear 4.0 Bag- Callaway Org 14/Fairway C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Middler Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 YouTube Channel | Subscribers Rick Shiels 2,010K MeAndMyGolf 808K Danny Maude 662K Clay Ballard 574K Peter Finch 459K Mark Crossfield 360K Chris Ryan 312K MrShortGame 286K Paige Spiranac 260K Golf Digest 192K James Robinson 185K TXG 176K Seb 134K GolfMonthly 118K Ali Taylor 74K Ales Etches 68K TheAverageGolfer 59K Michael Newton 56K MGS 47K One of the above is included as a joke for those who thrive on picking nits... Again, MGS was out of line in how "they" went after Shiels IMO, but obviously he knows his lane better than almost anyone on YouTube. It is how he makes his living...it ain't rickshiels.org. GolfSpy_SHARK, StrokerAce and Btshiloh@yahoo.com 2 1 Quote Titleist TSR2 11° HZRDUS Red CB 50 6.0 w Lamkin UTx Midsize Titleist TSR2 16.5º HZRDUS Red 60 CB 6.0 & TSR2 21º HZRDUS Black 4G 70 6.0 w Lamkin UTx Midsize Mizuno JPX923 HMP 4-GW, T22 54.12WS, T22 58.04DC w Lamkin ST+2 Hybrid Midsize Evnroll EV5.3 Maxfli Tour & ProV1 Ping Pioneer - MGI Zip Navigator AT Payntr X 002 LE, Ecco Biom C4, FJ DryJoys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrokerAce Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 3 minutes ago, Middler said: Channel | Subscribers Rick Shiels 2,010K MeAndMyGolf 808K Danny Maude 662K Clay Ballard 574K Peter Finch 459K Mark Crossfield 360K MrShortGame 286K Paige Spiranac 260K James Robinson 185K TXG 176K Seb 134K GolfMonthly 118K Ali Taylor 74K Ales Etches 68K TheAverageGolfer 59K Michael Newton 56K MGS 47K One of the above is included as a joke... Again, MGS was out of line in how they went after Shiels IMO, but obviously he knows his lane better than almost anyone on YouTube. It is how he makes his living...it ain't RS.org. Posted yesterday; already 80k+ views and 500 comments; most of which slam MGS... GolfSpy_SHARK and MGoBlue100 2 Quote Driver- Cobra Aerojet LS Woods- Cobra LTD 3w 15*, 5W 19*, F9 24* Irons- XXIO X (6-A) Wedges- Callaway Jaws Raw (54/58) Putter- Bettinardi BB56 Ball- Maxfli Tour X/Wilson Triad Buggy- Clicgear 4.0 Bag- Callaway Org 14/Fairway C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnosil Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 9 minutes ago, Middler said: YouTube Channel | Subscribers Rick Shiels 2,010K Paige Spiranac 260K That is just shocking. Tyler86, fixyurdivot, TR1PTIK and 1 other 4 Quote Driver: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven Fairway: TS3 15* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke Hybrids: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype 915H 24* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype Irons: TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite Wedge: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite Putter: TM-180 Testing: Backups: Milled Collection RSX 2, mFGP2, Futura 5W Member: MGS Hitsquad since 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob W. Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 In my opinion neither MGS nor Rick are reporting testing results, they are reporting reviews. If they wanted REAL testing, set up the robot, and let it swing away with every driver that comes out. They did it with the ball test. Why? because the robot gives you the most consistent & controlled data points. The reply that a robot doesn't represent the average golfer is BS. You can set up the robot to replicate off center hits, steep and shallow hits. Any swing fault can be simulated. But we don't ever see that data because it would end the debates and would make marketing hype transparent. As far as this squabble goes, Rick never claims to be doing controlled tests. He does the kind of tests that you and I can do at the PGA superstore or Golf Galaxy. MGS is the place that executes more controlled tests, so they needed to take the high road on this one. The response needed to be less personal in nature. MGoBlue100, Sturgeon, Dr Strangelove and 3 others 6 Quote ROGUE ST MAX 9* - Mitsubishi TENSEI AV White 65 Graphite stiff GBB Epic Pro Tour 15* - Matrix Radix HD 7 stiff Cleveland Mashie 20.5* - Miyazaki 5G Stiff PXG O211 4-G - Steelfiber I95 Stiff Callaway Mac Daddy CB 54* & 58* - KBS shafts. PXG Battle Ready Bat Attack - PXG Multi-Material M16 Putter Shaft plumbers neck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chisag Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 46 minutes ago, TR1PTIK said: I hope it didn't come off as though I think Stealth is going to be significantly better than anything else that comes out this year from a performance standpoint. I don't really think MGS Staff believes that either to be honest. ... Not at all. Just because a product is revolutionary doesn't mean that it will be better for everyone but it will be better or at the bare minimum, different. So I think reviewers that see bare bones changes from generation to generation with a different color or other minor change, can get a little excited about something completely new. And as MGS stated, every staff member saw a ball speed increase which of course is factual. Whether or not that ball speed increase gives them better overall performance is a completely different animal and will come out in their review. Which gets us back to attacking Rick, at least in the one reply, I also have no doubt Rick did not see a ball speed increase for whatever reason which may be just a result of how he swings a driver and of course that is the crux of reviews and potential buyers. Just because it was better for those testing does not mean it will be better for you, but with so many new products every year, these reviews gives you a great starting point and can narrow the field. fixyurdivot and TR1PTIK 2 Quote Driver: Qi10 10.5* ... Ventus Red Velocore 5R Fairway: Aerojet 3/5 ... Kai'li Blue 60R Hybrids: 430 Hybrid 22*... Steelfiber 780Hy DHy #4 ... Diamana LTD 65r Irons: '23 T200 5-Pw ... Steelfiber i95r Wedges: Vokey 50*/54*/58* ... Steelfiber i95r Putter: Sport-60 33" Ball: Maxfli Maxfli Tour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fixyurdivot Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 1 hour ago, StrokerAce said: Posted yesterday; already 80k+ views and 500 comments; most of which slam MGS... Okay, this post finally pushed me over the edge and I watched the video. At 01:24 Guy is stating that "MGS is claiming massive gains in ball speeds across the testers"... umm, no they didn't. They simply stated that it was the first time all testers thus far have recorded their highest ball speeds. Personal best does not equate to massive. It may be increases in the tenths and possibly within the testers STD if they hit that same driver over multiple days. Just another example of comment taken out of context. Conversely, the claim that Rick only hits 5-10 shots with the Stealth (and seemed to imply this is his basic testing approach with all clubs) seems odd; from whoever it was they were quoting (do we know?). Clearly Rick's reaction says that's poppycock which begs the question who was it and what is their basis for saying that? So here we are, two really great entities trying their best to provide the golfing populous around the globe with some good data about new products, having a pissing match which may very well be much to do about nothing. Personally, simply from a testing format, I give the nod to MGS. Having a group of testers whose ball striking capabilities represent the cross-section of the golfing population, and who (I'm pretty sure) have no personal stake that would sway their feedback, or cook-the-books so to speak in their effort to give all products their best chance, is solid. Rick, TXG, and many others do great work, but I often don't find my game in their way better than average ball striking prowess. I'd love to hear that Adam and Rick threw back a few beers at some point and chuckled about some out of context comments gone wild. TR1PTIK, Larryd3, RollingGreens and 1 other 4 Quote G410 Plus, 9 Degree Driver G400 SFT, 16 Degree 3w G400 SFT, 19 Degree 5w ZX5 Irons 4-AW Glide 2.0 56 Degree SW (removed from double secret probation ) ER5v Putter (Evnroll ER5v Official Review) AI-One Milled Seven T CH (Currently Under Product Test) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TR1PTIK Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 51 minutes ago, Rob W. said: The reply that a robot doesn't represent the average golfer is BS. You can set up the robot to replicate off center hits, steep and shallow hits. Any swing fault can be simulated Why spend the money and time having a robot replicate the shots of average golfers when you can just have average golfers hit shots? I get that people want apples-to-apples comparisons of equipment, but you could attach the club to a pole and have a robot swing it and it's not going to correlate to the average golfer. Average is average, as in most common. When you have actual golfers test equipment, they aren't going to hit the center of the face with any level of precision; their shot pattern is going to move around and you will achieve exactly the result you're asking for. I think the people clamoring for this type of test simply don't understand what it is they're asking for or what it would mean - and in relation to the golfing consumer that is precisely nothing. Larryd3, RickyBobby_PR and Golfspy_CG2 3 Quote Driver: ST190 9.5* Fujikura Atmos Blue 5S Fairway Wood: ST190 15* Fujikura Atmos Blue 6S Hybrid: CLK 17* Fujikura Speeder EVO HB Irons: J40 CB (3-PW) Dynamic Gold Tour Issue X100 Wedges: Milled Grind 2 54* & 58* Dynamic Gold S200 Putter: Tri-Hot 5k Two 34" Bag: Players 5 Stand Bag Ball: Maxfli Tour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Bachman Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 18 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said: Okay, this post finally pushed me over the edge and I watched the video. At 01:24 Guy is stating that "MGS is claiming massive gains in ball speeds across the testers"... umm, no they didn't. They simply stated that it was the first time all testers thus far have recorded their highest ball speeds. Personal best does not equate to massive. It may be increases in the tenths and possibly within the testers STD if they hit that same driver over multiple days. Just another example of comment taken out of context. Conversely, the claim that Rick only hits 5-10 shots with the Stealth (and seemed to imply this his basic testing approach with all clubs) seems odd; from whoever it was they were quoting (do we know?). Clearly Rick's reaction says that's poppycock which begs the question who was it and what is their basis for saying that? So here we are, two really great entities trying their best to provide the golfing populous around the globe with some good data about new products, having a pissing match which may very well be much to do about nothing. Personally, simply from a testing format, I give the nod to MGS. Having a group of testers whose ball striking capabilities represent the cross-section of the golfing population, and who (I'm pretty sure) have no personal stake that would sway their feedback, or cook-the-books so to speak in their effort to give all products their best chance, is solid. Rick, TXG, and many others do great work, but I often don't find my game in their way better than average ball striking prowess. I'd love to hear that Adam and Rick threw back a few beers at some point and chuckled about some out of context comments gone wild. I’ve never really delved into MGS’s testing too deeply. It might be good in the future to break down their testing data into handicap ranges. Maybe they do this already. I’m a 4 handicap and really don’t need to know the results from testers who may be a 10+ handicap. Like I said, I don’t do a total breakdown of their data results. As with MGS and other sites, I use their reviews and info as a starting point and to get ideas on equipment I may not have known or thought of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bens197 Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 25 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said: Okay, this post finally pushed me over the edge and I watched the video. At 01:24 Guy is stating that "MGS is claiming massive gains in ball speeds across the testers"... umm, no they didn't. They simply stated that it was the first time all testers thus far have recorded their highest ball speeds. Personal best does not equate to massive. It may be increases in the tenths and possibly within the testers STD if they hit that same driver over multiple days. Just another example of comment taken out of context. Dude...great find...And this right here is a big reason why I don't listen to the fools who just want views and clicks. Maybe it's why I like and have stuck around MGS in contrast. None of this nonsense. Golfspy_CG2, Nolan220, TR1PTIK and 2 others 5 Quote Titleist TSi3 Fujikura Speeder NX Blue 60X TaylorMade SIM2 3 wood Fujilkura Ventus Blue 7-X Titleist U505 2 Tensei 1K Black 85 X Titleist T100 4-P Nippon Modus 3 120X PING S159 50-S 55-H 59-T DG X100 Vokey SM8 50, SM9 54 & 60 Nippon Modus 3 120s L.A.B. MEZZ Max Broom Accra 47" 79.5* Srixon Z-Star XV Currently testing the 2024 PING S159 wedges… https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/63483-testers-announced-ping-s159-wedges/ Was testing, still loving the 2023 Titleist T100 Irons 4-P https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/60456-titleist-t-series-irons-2023-forum-review/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fixyurdivot Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 2 minutes ago, John Bachman said: I’ve never really delved into MGS’s testing too deeply. It might be good in the future to break down their testing data into handicap ranges. Maybe they do this already. I’m a 4 handicap and really don’t need to know the results from testers who may be a 10+ handicap. Like I said, I don’t do a total breakdown of their data results. As with MGS and other sites, I use their reviews and info as a starting point and to get ideas on equipment I may not have known or thought of. Some of the testers "MGS Hit Squad" are regulars here on the forum. I don't know their exact make-up of playing capability but, largely based on discussions from them in numerous threads, it sounds like they cover the spectrum of ball striking capability. I think I heard some talk about them creating a "Hit Squad Player Profile" at some point? TR1PTIK, John Bachman and RollingGreens 3 Quote G410 Plus, 9 Degree Driver G400 SFT, 16 Degree 3w G400 SFT, 19 Degree 5w ZX5 Irons 4-AW Glide 2.0 56 Degree SW (removed from double secret probation ) ER5v Putter (Evnroll ER5v Official Review) AI-One Milled Seven T CH (Currently Under Product Test) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LICC Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said: That still isn’t even close to the data that mgs has, which is what the mgs reply want pointing out as well as the type of analysis mgs does is far more in depth than Rick. Rick and his channel went from somewhat of a channel mixed with golf tips and swing reviews to more of an entertainment channel with more reviews and some change in his approach. Don’t fault him for it, he’s trying to monetize his channel and he’s more for the average golfer. I would rather watch a 10 min video from Michael newton on a product than Rick. once he really made this switch he doesn’t say anything negative that’s going to keep him from getting gear to test. So his reviews will always be down the middle. But again those that have some run with mgs on any issue are going to find it with their reply and inclusion of Rick. But you you replace Rick with a number of YouTube reviewers and it’s applicable I think that saying the new model doesn't provide much if any improvement over the prior year's model (or even the model from 5 years ago which I have seen him do) is a negative. He has also talked about how some clubs vary greatly on mishits while others do well in this area. He often gives varying opinions on sound and feel, both positive and negative. Edited January 13, 2022 by LICC TR1PTIK, Btshiloh@yahoo.com and MGoBlue100 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LICC Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 1 hour ago, fixyurdivot said: Okay, this post finally pushed me over the edge and I watched the video. At 01:24 Guy is stating that "MGS is claiming massive gains in ball speeds across the testers"... umm, no they didn't. They simply stated that it was the first time all testers thus far have recorded their highest ball speeds. Personal best does not equate to massive. It may be increases in the tenths and possibly within the testers STD if they hit that same driver over multiple days. Just another example of comment taken out of context. The MGS post on the Stealth driver said this, which seems consistent with Guy's description: "Out of the gate, in our range session with Trackman and TaylorMade TP5 balls, we saw exceptional results. These days, I typically hover around 158 mph ball speed. With the Stealth Plus, I repeatedly hit 162 and change (a personal best for me). Obvious (though not massive) mishits dipped to 158 mph or so while the total trash typically stayed above 150. Our Harry Nodwell plays professionally. He’s typically in the 178 mph range but he repeatedly and consistently broke 180, including a personal best of 181.4. There appears to be real juice in the Stealth." MGoBlue100 and AndySP 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickyBobby_PR Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 55 minutes ago, John Bachman said: I’ve never really delved into MGS’s testing too deeply. It might be good in the future to break down their testing data into handicap ranges. Maybe they do this already. I’m a 4 handicap and really don’t need to know the results from testers who may be a 10+ handicap. Like I said, I don’t do a total breakdown of their data results. As with MGS and other sites, I use their reviews and info as a starting point and to get ideas on equipment I may not have known or thought of. Not all handicaps are achieved the same way. Some guys regardless of handicap can have good short game and mediocre tee and iron. What if some high handicaps are long but lack distance control with irons and wedges (there’s some around here like that) it’s doesn’t make much sense to go by handicap. 21 minutes ago, LICC said: I think that saying the new model doesn't provide much if any improvement over the prior year's model (or even the model from 5 years ago which I have seen him do) is a negative. He has also talked about how some clubs vary greatly on mishits while others do well in this area. He often gives varying opinions on sound and feel, both positive and negative. That’s pretty much what everyone says and data shows that. Even mgs says it and put it in the reply on that post. many say that ifs 3-7 years depending on which part of the bag one is looking at. Everyone so focused on year to year but forget that there’s lots of golfers who have 3 year old+ clubs in their bag. Rick and all the other reviews aren’t doing anything other than a comparison year to year. Yes Rick did his 5 year test a few years back but even that lacks the amount of data that mgs has. Many amateurs looking for the magic bullet in a club and not interested in doing the work to get better or longer Larryd3 1 Quote Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4 Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120 Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60 Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1 Ball: Titleist Prov1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TR1PTIK Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 25 minutes ago, LICC said: The MGS post on the Stealth driver said this, which seems consistent with Guy's description: "Out of the gate, in our range session with Trackman and TaylorMade TP5 balls, we saw exceptional results. These days, I typically hover around 158 mph ball speed. With the Stealth Plus, I repeatedly hit 162 and change (a personal best for me). Obvious (though not massive) mishits dipped to 158 mph or so while the total trash typically stayed above 150. Our Harry Nodwell plays professionally. He’s typically in the 178 mph range but he repeatedly and consistently broke 180, including a personal best of 181.4. There appears to be real juice in the Stealth." It really just depends on your definition of "massive", but I think you make a fair point here. fixyurdivot and Btshiloh@yahoo.com 2 Quote Driver: ST190 9.5* Fujikura Atmos Blue 5S Fairway Wood: ST190 15* Fujikura Atmos Blue 6S Hybrid: CLK 17* Fujikura Speeder EVO HB Irons: J40 CB (3-PW) Dynamic Gold Tour Issue X100 Wedges: Milled Grind 2 54* & 58* Dynamic Gold S200 Putter: Tri-Hot 5k Two 34" Bag: Players 5 Stand Bag Ball: Maxfli Tour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBoyEd Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 go after the top dog i suppose. RS is not the only reviewer to be underwhelmed by the stealth and see zero to minimal gains. i don't understand why it got personal and kiddie playground-ish. odd Dweed, MGoBlue100 and Btshiloh@yahoo.com 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TR1PTIK Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 15 minutes ago, Riverboat said: I have no ax to grind here. Not a Rick Shiels fan or detractors (I actually lean toward the Average Golfer, as his game is close to mine.) However, many of you are being a bit contradictory in defending MGS for their independence and criticizing Rick for never saying anything negative when this all started because someone at MGS felt he was being unfairly negative toward TaylorMade. Sure sounds like in this instance Rick was being more independent than MGS would have liked. He's not the only reviewer out there who has been underwhelmed with the stealth. I haven't seen any bad reviews, but quite a few have suggested minimal gains. I think the reason for the MGS reply is they felt Rick was doing some sort of disservice to the golf consumer by not being more specific about what makes the Stealth driver special. I don't feel it was handled correctly, but I do believe that is the driving force behind the response as alluded to when the (for now) anonymous staffer said, "When it comes to the Stealth, what I can tell you is that I have never seen a single product in the driver category produce ball speed personal records for EVERY staff member of MGS that tested the product. That is a first. Will it be better for everyone, maybe not, but you need to give kudos to something when it actually deserves it. This wasn’t just words and an ad, they actually pushed an envelope and made something better and moved a technology forward for golfers. And trust me that is more than a lot of the products we see that come across our facility. I give a golf clap to what they did this year, it was a lot of work and work they should be proud of." Larryd3, Everardo and RickyBobby_PR 3 Quote Driver: ST190 9.5* Fujikura Atmos Blue 5S Fairway Wood: ST190 15* Fujikura Atmos Blue 6S Hybrid: CLK 17* Fujikura Speeder EVO HB Irons: J40 CB (3-PW) Dynamic Gold Tour Issue X100 Wedges: Milled Grind 2 54* & 58* Dynamic Gold S200 Putter: Tri-Hot 5k Two 34" Bag: Players 5 Stand Bag Ball: Maxfli Tour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickyBobby_PR Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 8 minutes ago, OldBoyEd said: go after the top dog i suppose. RS is not the only reviewer to be underwhelmed by the stealth and see zero to minimal gains. i don't understand why it got personal and kiddie playground-ish. odd They didn’t go after Rick Shiels. The person who posted the comment they replied to referenced Rick Shiels for their point. Quote Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4 Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120 Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60 Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1 Ball: Titleist Prov1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LICC Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 (edited) 8 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said: They didn’t go after Rick Shiels. The person who posted the comment they replied to referenced Rick Shiels for their point. I don't see how you can look at it that way. The MGS rep took an unwarranted shot at Shiels that in no way was necessitated by the comment from the poster. Edited January 13, 2022 by LICC Everardo, Tyler86, Blueberry_Squishie and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fixyurdivot Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 2 hours ago, Rob W. said: In my opinion neither MGS nor Rick are reporting testing results, they are reporting reviews. If they wanted REAL testing, set up the robot, and let it swing away with every driver that comes out. They did it with the ball test. Why? because the robot gives you the most consistent & controlled data points. The reply that a robot doesn't represent the average golfer is BS. You can set up the robot to replicate off center hits, steep and shallow hits. Any swing fault can be simulated. But we don't ever see that data because it would end the debates and would make marketing hype transparent. Interesting point and valid - at least for the LM part of the assessment. I mean, MGS's mission statement runs along the lines of replacing marketing hype with facts... pretty much the Myth Busters of golf. I may be wrong but suspect the OEM's do the majority (if not all) product development tests using a robot simply because they can isolate conditions and do so consistently. What would be fun to see is some comparative data, using a robot and Trackman average player AOA, CFTP, SS, etc., and hits at dead center, and off-center; crown, sole, toe, and heel. I think that would be quite informative. Rob W. 1 Quote G410 Plus, 9 Degree Driver G400 SFT, 16 Degree 3w G400 SFT, 19 Degree 5w ZX5 Irons 4-AW Glide 2.0 56 Degree SW (removed from double secret probation ) ER5v Putter (Evnroll ER5v Official Review) AI-One Milled Seven T CH (Currently Under Product Test) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Bachman Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 27 minutes ago, TR1PTIK said: I think the reason for the MGS reply is they felt Rick was doing some sort of disservice to the golf consumer by not being more specific about what makes the Stealth driver special. I don't feel it was handled correctly, but I do believe that is the driving force behind the response as alluded to when the (for now) anonymous staffer said, "When it comes to the Stealth, what I can tell you is that I have never seen a single product in the driver category produce ball speed personal records for EVERY staff member of MGS that tested the product. That is a first. Will it be better for everyone, maybe not, but you need to give kudos to something when it actually deserves it. This wasn’t just words and an ad, they actually pushed an envelope and made something better and moved a technology forward for golfers. And trust me that is more than a lot of the products we see that come across our facility. I give a golf clap to what they did this year, it was a lot of work and work they should be proud of." Maybe Rick didn’t think the driver was special since it really didn’t improve his numbers. He’s not there to kiss TMs rear or any other company. He gave his honest review as he saw it as did MGS. Just because their results are different doesn’t mean one is right and the other is wrong. I’m LICC, TR1PTIK, Thin2win and 1 other 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TR1PTIK Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 21 minutes ago, John Bachman said: Maybe Rick didn’t think the driver was special since it really didn’t improve his numbers. He’s not there to kiss TMs rear or any other company. He gave his honest review as he saw it as did MGS. Just because their results are different doesn’t mean one is right and the other is wrong. I’m What I was saying (which you seem to have missed) is that the MGS staffer's response was not driven by numbers. It was driven by a new way of doing something which could have a profound impact on the way drivers across all brands are constructed in the future. The fact TM was able to produce a carbon-faced driver with performance similar to that of current titanium drivers is fairly impressive given that (by all accounts I've read) the Callaway C4 from '02 was somewhat of a dud. I tried to find information on the JDM Taylormade Gloire, but there's not much out there based on the brief search I did. Ball speed and distance numbers have very little to do with what was being said, but that's all anyone focuses on. No one ever cares much about where the performance comes from. The statement about ball speed was simply meant to convey the point that Stealth is something the MGS staff have never seen. Perhaps you're right though, maybe that's why Rick didn't think the driver was special and if that's the case I think he kind of missed the boat. Anyway, it's not about kissing anyone's rear, it's about acknowledging a leap forward in technology. At least that's how I read it. PMookie and Larryd3 2 Quote Driver: ST190 9.5* Fujikura Atmos Blue 5S Fairway Wood: ST190 15* Fujikura Atmos Blue 6S Hybrid: CLK 17* Fujikura Speeder EVO HB Irons: J40 CB (3-PW) Dynamic Gold Tour Issue X100 Wedges: Milled Grind 2 54* & 58* Dynamic Gold S200 Putter: Tri-Hot 5k Two 34" Bag: Players 5 Stand Bag Ball: Maxfli Tour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickyBobby_PR Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 1 hour ago, LICC said: I don't see how you can look at it that way. The MGS rep took an unwarranted shot at Shiels that in no way was necessitated by the comment from the poster. The poster used Rick Shiels as his reference. Mgs replied with their thoughts on Rick. It’s not like they brought him into the conversation out of nowhere. But then again I’m not one trying to to read anything into whats really nothing and whole bunch of people are trying to turn into something that’s not there so they can vent about mgs and their gripes with mgs also imo Rick despite his large following isn’t one that I would consider a great source on golf equipment and the details of design and so on and definitely not one I would look to for swing advice TR1PTIK and Larryd3 2 Quote Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4 Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120 Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60 Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1 Ball: Titleist Prov1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnosil Posted January 14, 2022 Share Posted January 14, 2022 4 hours ago, Rob W. said: If they wanted REAL testing, set up the robot, and let it swing away with every driver that comes out. They did it with the ball test. Why? because the robot gives you the most consistent & controlled data points. The reply that a robot doesn't represent the average golfer is BS. You can set up the robot to replicate off center hits, steep and shallow hits. Any swing fault can be simulated. But we don't ever see that data because it would end the debates and would make marketing hype transparent. What you are missing is that a robot doesn't react to feel and looks; it swings on the plane that is setup. People react to feels, I may leave the face open because of how it feels or because of visual queues hit snap hooks. 3 hours ago, fixyurdivot said: Some of the testers "MGS Hit Squad" are regulars here on the forum. I don't know their exact make-up of playing capability but, largely based on discussions from them in numerous threads, it sounds like they cover the spectrum of ball striking capability. I think I heard some talk about them creating a "Hit Squad Player Profile" at some point? I don't know the makeup of the testers as the testers are different for each club type. The spectrum is pretty wide as there are + handicappers all the way to 20+ handicappers. Ages range from 20s to 70s. As mentioned by someone else's response, handicap isn't really a great indicator if the clubs works for you. I'd probably look at things measured on a launch monitor as a you can have a scratch golfer that hits it 230 and a 20 that hits it 300. TR1PTIK, fixyurdivot and Larryd3 3 Quote Driver: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven Fairway: TS3 15* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke Hybrids: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype 915H 24* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype Irons: TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite Wedge: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite Putter: TM-180 Testing: Backups: Milled Collection RSX 2, mFGP2, Futura 5W Member: MGS Hitsquad since 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moose4282 Posted January 14, 2022 Share Posted January 14, 2022 (edited) 21 hours ago, MNUte said: After a 1 mph average increase and highest overall of 2mph, your takeaway from this is to bash Rick? Regardless of whether he's your flavor or not, he's a single data source, one of many. You're right, he tends to be a fairly skeptical source. But so are plenty of people. And the majority of reviewers who are public with their results didn't show much increase. As a countering data point, Alex Etches showed significant increases. So you review the sources and take any particular one with a grain of salt. Rick said that to him there was no difference in ball speeds. His numbers reflect that. And again, many also show no or negligible differences. You yourself state that you think MGS's claims are a tad inflated and that for you the speeds were fairly negligible (I'm assuming you're over 100 mph ball speed and so the 1 to 2mph increase is at most 1 to 2 % increases). So how does all of that that justify the MYGOLFSPY Response and some of the low blow statements. Similarly, how does that justify your comments that his skepticism equates to him not understanding data or science? Because what sheils does (and many other yt) is so unscientific in nature. You cant call it a test or comparison of you dont understand how science works. There are variables and constants that have to be accounted for. His approach is incredibly simplistic. Another thing that seems to be happening is ALL reviews im seeing that use trackman has stealth clubhead speed UP 2-3mph and smash actually a bit lower than other drivers, even tho ball speed is up. They all bumble around this fact having no clue what is actually happening. Its sad. Edited January 14, 2022 by Moose4282 Larryd3 and RickyBobby_PR 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moose4282 Posted January 14, 2022 Share Posted January 14, 2022 5 hours ago, Rob W. said: In my opinion neither MGS nor Rick are reporting testing results, they are reporting reviews. If they wanted REAL testing, set up the robot, and let it swing away with every driver that comes out. They did it with the ball test. Why? because the robot gives you the most consistent & controlled data points. The reply that a robot doesn't represent the average golfer is BS. You can set up the robot to replicate off center hits, steep and shallow hits. Any swing fault can be simulated. But we don't ever see that data because it would end the debates and would make marketing hype transparent. As far as this squabble goes, Rick never claims to be doing controlled tests. He does the kind of tests that you and I can do at the PGA superstore or Golf Galaxy. MGS is the place that executes more controlled tests, so they needed to take the high road on this one. The response needed to be less personal in nature. Bingo. To do anything less is get lost in clouds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moose4282 Posted January 14, 2022 Share Posted January 14, 2022 38 minutes ago, cnosil said: What you are missing is that a robot doesn't react to feel and looks; it swings on the plane that is setup. People react to feels, I may leave the face open because of how it feels or because of visual queues hit snap hooks. I don't know the makeup of the testers as the testers are different for each club type. The spectrum is pretty wide as there are + handicappers all the way to 20+ handicappers. Ages range from 20s to 70s. As mentioned by someone else's response, handicap isn't really a great indicator if the clubs works for you. I'd probably look at things measured on a launch monitor as a you can have a scratch golfer that hits it 230 and a 20 that hits it 300. No doubt an actual golfer introduces random variables that a robot cant replicate. But all we want to know here is it faster. In certain parts of the face. Control all variables and make them equal, chs, dynamic loft, face angle, aoa, strike location. Let the chips fall where they may. Thats where the truth resides. Dr Strangelove 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnosil Posted January 14, 2022 Share Posted January 14, 2022 2 minutes ago, Moose4282 said: No doubt an actual golfer introduces random variables that a robot cant replicate. But all we want to know here is it faster. In certain parts of the face. Control all variables and make them equal, chs, dynamic loft, face angle, aoa, strike location. Let the chips fall where they may. Thats where the truth resides. Don't disagree that that will give you information about one configuration of the club. But just because the club is the fastest using a robot that doesn't mean it will be the fastest when it is in your hands. There are multiple truths and you have identified one particular truth. Larryd3, TR1PTIK and fixyurdivot 3 Quote Driver: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven Fairway: TS3 15* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke Hybrids: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype 915H 24* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype Irons: TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite Wedge: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite Putter: TM-180 Testing: Backups: Milled Collection RSX 2, mFGP2, Futura 5W Member: MGS Hitsquad since 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chisag Posted January 14, 2022 Share Posted January 14, 2022 59 minutes ago, cnosil said: What you are missing is that a robot doesn't react to feel and looks; it swings on the plane that is setup. People react to feels, I may leave the face open because of how it feels or because of visual queues hit snap hooks. ... A robot will tell me little if anything. Even ball speed doesn't tell me much because trajectory, spin and swing speed can negate any increase in ball speed. That said it is good information to have and the more info the better. But as you said that info is not just technical aspects a robot can reveal but I wanna know how it plays. I remember the original remake of the Big Bertha and at that time it was the best feeling and sounding driver I had hit. A wonderful dense feel and muted sound. Some reviewers and especially younger wrx members commented how it just felt dead and lifeless compared to the explosive driver they had been playing so they really disliked it. One player looks at a Max head and thinks they can't hit something that large and the next guy thinks it gives them added confidence. ... And while a robot can be very valuable and reveal many truths it cannot emulate average golfers swings. Just taking one over the top, out to in, face open, negative angle of attack, 89mph driver swing and if you change one of those variables like how open the face is, everything changes. Now the combination of incremental changes for that one swing has to be in the thousands if not millions. And we haven't even touched on shafts because unless you have carbon copy of Byron Nelsons swing, how you swing any given shaft cannot be duplicated by a robot, just the swing speed. cnosil, TR1PTIK and Larryd3 3 Quote Driver: Qi10 10.5* ... Ventus Red Velocore 5R Fairway: Aerojet 3/5 ... Kai'li Blue 60R Hybrids: 430 Hybrid 22*... Steelfiber 780Hy DHy #4 ... Diamana LTD 65r Irons: '23 T200 5-Pw ... Steelfiber i95r Wedges: Vokey 50*/54*/58* ... Steelfiber i95r Putter: Sport-60 33" Ball: Maxfli Maxfli Tour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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