MGS Beef with Rick Shiels? He addresses on his new podcast

[storm319]

On 1/14/2022 at 4:59 PM, RickyBobby_PR said:

Other than maybe rock Shiels what yt reviewer hits that many shots?

 

Even if they do, it doesn’t seem like any of them state their shot sample size when they share numbers so IMHO it is reasonable for people to assume that the sample size is closer to the handful of shots shown in the video than hundreds. My recommendation to all of them would be to add a graphic with a note of the sample size anytime they share numbers.

[GolfSpy BOS]

I recall back in the G400 era of Rick's reviews he used to talk about hitting balls on multiple days on GC Quad and then would show some of his on course stuff too.  I never felt like he wasn't hitting enough to give an honest review of the club and how it worked for him.  

I also don't think what Most Wanted testing shows and what any of the YouTubers show is apples and apples, and I think that's been covered here already.  I've enjoyed and will continue to enjoy the work of Sheils, Crossfield, Etches (that dude cracks me up), and others because I like to hear what they think about the equipment and how they present them.  It's winter.... I need the eye candy to get me through! haha  

Same goes for Most Wanted testing.  I'm always curious to dig into the results and try to compare my current clubs to what the team testing for Most Wanted found with the next crop of clubs.  I think there can be value in both mediums and neither should be taken as the Gospel.  

Side note:  Thanks all for keeping this thread civil and productive.  Good conversation and viewpoints without being disrespectful shows why this forum is awesome.

 

[cnosil]

27 minutes ago, Riverboat said:

Do you have the same recommendation to MGS, who have been making more and more conclusions without sharing any data? I don't disagree with you, but I prefer to keep my criticisms consistent. And face with the choice, I'd prefer to see the data (most yt'ers) on a small sample than know there was a large sample, but not get to see the data (MGS lately). 

Where is  MGS not showing the data on their tests?   MGS is ultimately a media outlet and they do a variety of reporting;  their first looks are essentially media reports that introduce equipment, they do stories on aspects of clubs or manufacturers.    When they “test” a product they always seem to provide data; however, people criticize the data they provide as not being hat they want to see.  

[storm319]

6 minutes ago, Riverboat said:

Do you have the same recommendation to MGS, who have been making more and more conclusions without sharing any data? I don't disagree with you, but I prefer to keep my criticisms consistent. 

The criticism was not about the totality of the data presented (that is an entirely separate topic), but simply that it is a set practice to share the sample size when averages are presented. In this case, MGS lists the shot sample size on all of their most wanted club articles even though they do not share discrete averages of each player/club.

[TR1PTIK]

16 hours ago, funkyjudge said:

Mike was sitting right next to Ian Fraser and they agreed that, unless you’re hitting a driver that is three to four generations old, the Stealth is not going to provide any significant increase in performance (distance, forgiveness, etc.) Both of them agreed that it isn’t worth getting a Stealth driver if you are currently playing a SIM or SIM2 model.

I don't think anyone here would argue with the idea that Stealth is not worth the yds/$ (if any) over SIM or SIM2, but what I believe @Shapotomous was suggesting is that it wasn't a particularly great test in the sense that the average strike location and dynamic loft was quite different for each club. IMO this is where TXG will really suffer without someone like Matt. Unless something really felt off that guy could just produce a level of consistency that is probably only rivaled by Crossfield in the YT world.

[cnosil]

48 minutes ago, Riverboat said:

The most recent example was the conclusion that matte balls are terrible especially when wet. I don't recall seeing a single piece of data provided by MGS to support it. 

Nope, there hasn’t been any data published as it wasn’t a formal test.  MGS does lots of experiments some of which are reported on in detail and others aren’t.  The discussion on matte vs gloss was part of a no putts given episode in 2020.  Generally MGS won’t test those balls as they aren’t typically tour level balls which is what they focus on for testing.  

 

1 hour ago, Riverboat said:

The part that is interesting is knowing if that difference was 12 yards (real world significance) or 1.3 yards (who really cares). That is the data we are often not given or have to dig for on MGS. Most of the yt guys show you this, side by side, immediately. It's not hard to do and it's not much to ask. 

Much easier to do for YT reviewers since it is one golfer; as part of most wanted  there are 35 golfer jumbled together and you may see significant distance variations with one golfer but not another.   They present the average distances  for the entirety of the test group and then for three swing speed categories.   If you saw two players and one was 10 yards shorter than some baseline and the other was 10 yards longer you still wouldn’t get much information as the complaint would be I need to see all the detailed data for each golfer.  Even with all the swing data there would still be intangibles that could influence performance.  Either way you personally should still go out and test for yourself;  MGS data simply shows that looking across golfers this club has a good chance of performing the best; not that it will or that the worst driver in the test would really perform best for you.   

[Thin2win]

1 hour ago, Riverboat said:

The most recent example was the conclusion that matte balls are terrible especially when wet. I don't recall seeing a single piece of data provided by MGS to support it. 

You know I tested that, and I'm pretty confident that a matte finish doesn't affect spin when wet any more then a gloss finish. I shared my results back on your thread about it. Ionomer covers however do not deal with being wet at all. And it doesn't matter if they are glossy or matte. My best guess is that mgs did test this and saw that matte balls were worse. My other guess is that when they did this (a couple years ago based on the repeated references that matte are worse for a couple years now) they used a non urethane ball. Mostly because I don't know if there was a urethane matte ball then. To your point, these are all my guesses and a little more data could clear that up. 

But as disappointed as I was with mgs for this issue discussed in this thread, I have no issues with their data provided. Adam & Co do a great job at providing actual data for free that to date no one else in the industry is providing. 

Adam didn't like what the industry was selling without a check so he started mgs. If you want to provide even more data, by all means start your own website, blog or YouTube and I'm sure that many of us will gleefully dive into even more data. 

But as for MGS and the data they provide, try not to look a gift horse in the mouth. IMHO. 

[the great spinks]

On 1/12/2022 at 11:44 AM, jlukes said:

That’s funny, because I hear just the opposite from other people. That MGS hates Taylormade and Callaway and loves the smaller companies 

MGS has been a full on Taylormade lovefest since the stealth came out.  It's as if MGS social has become the media arm of TM.  I say this as a fan of MGS.

[RickyBobby_PR]

6 minutes ago, Riverboat said:

Not sure why so many on here feel the need to leap to the defense of MGS whenever there is the slightest criticism. I wouldn't be here if I didn't appreciate their work, but the site is not perfect, because nothing is. Pointing out flaws is not an indictment of everything they do, it's a hope that it can be even better. Existing in an echo chamber where everyone praises and bows at the altar of their golf equipment omnipotence can easily lead to an arrogance, a "how dare you question our conclusions? You'll take the information we supply and like it" attitude that may very well have led to the comment that started this thread. 

People aren’t necessarily defending mgs they are pointing out the issues they see with people who are calling out mgs for either their reply to a comment on a blog post or other comments in this thread and others.

Some people jump at the chance to criticize mgs at every chance they get and it’s not alway based on facts, but perceptions of misperceptions depending on how one looks at it

[cnosil]

22 minutes ago, Riverboat said:

Not sure why so many on here feel the need to leap to the defense of MGS whenever there is the slightest criticism. I wouldn't be here if I didn't appreciate their work, but the site is not perfect, because nothing is. Pointing out flaws is not an indictment of everything they do, it's a hope that it can be even better. Existing in an echo chamber where everyone praises and bows at the altar of their golf equipment omnipotence can easily lead to an arrogance, a "how dare you question our conclusions? You'll take the information we supply and like it" attitude that may very well have led to the comment that started this thread. 

I hope I am not coming off that way.  I have a close connection with MGS and don’t personally agree with the way they do everything, but will defend that they research, continually adapt, and try to find the best ways to test things and have to deal with constant criticism.   At the end of the day,  they present information and we can choose to accept or not accept the information.  MGS continually states you should go out and  verify your own personal results.  The presented information is not for gear heads like the people on this site; it is intended for 99% of the golfing public who just walk into a golf shop and buy OTR based on industry claims.  

[chisag]

2 hours ago, the great spinks said:

MGS has been a full on Taylormade lovefest since the stealth came out.  It's as if MGS social has become the media arm of TM.  I say this as a fan of MGS.

 

... Beating a dead horse, you see what you want to see and hear what you want to hear. I just don't know what some people expect from a review. Nobody is going to read a robotic and bland review and/or recommend it to others. As I stated earlier I have been accused of being a shill after a glowing review. Not sure why but Taylor Made seems to garner more of this type of reply than others especially at wrx. Nothing I enjoy more than reading a lovefest review when I know they are just being subjectively honest. As an equipment nerd I want to be excited about reviewed and/or tested equipment and then make up my own mind about how that equipment works for me. 

... I think some of us would give up statistically insignificant performance for a better look, sound and feel while others would only make a change of it were statistically better. If I am averaging 262 yds with my SIM2 and the Stealth produced 260.5 yds with dispersion, spin and trajectory being similar and I just loved the way it looked, sounded and felt more than my SIM2 I would make that change because I would simply enjoy hitting it more. Same for the new Callaway. Subjective for sure and if that 1.5 yds turned into 3 yds I am no longer making the change. Everyone has their own line in the sand. So give me a lovefest every time as long as that lovefest is for the equipment and not the OEM. MGS completely trashed the Chrome Soft several years ago and I don't remember anyone accusing them of having an anti-lovefest against Callaway. Equipment differences have become smaller and smaller so when a reviewer finds something that is different it is easy to get excited about it and want to share that excitement. 

[fetch29]

Possibly already mentioned, but what bothers me more than anything is the sense of superiority that MGS feels they have over everyone else, and the inability to act professionally as a result. It was the same thing in the TXG podcast - it was a great opportunity to have a knowledgeable debate.  Ryan handled himself very well, but the full-on attack (rather than informative conversation) but was painful to listen to and childish at best.  Throwing Rick under the bus is similar - he knows his target audience isn't exclusively gear heads playing off of a +2 handicap, and as such, focuses on the weekend golfer as much a anyone in the industry.  So much of his following is focused on swing tips more so than gear reviews.  He acknowledged as much when he was on TXG's podcast.  Regardless, there were so many better ways to go about this situation, right wrong or indifferent. 

 

All of that being said, the data and testing side of MGS is great, the forums are fantastic, and I'll still be reading the site as much as anyone.  I just wish they could have functional and professional/"grown up" conversations with others in the industry when there is a difference in opinion.  Everyone would benefit.

[John Bachman]

21 minutes ago, fetch29 said:

Possibly already mentioned, but what bothers me more than anything is the sense of superiority that MGS feels they have over everyone else, and the inability to act professionally as a result. It was the same thing in the TXG podcast - it was a great opportunity to have a knowledgeable debate.  Ryan handled himself very well, but the full-on attack (rather than informative conversation) but was painful to listen to and childish at best.  Throwing Rick under the bus is similar - he knows his target audience isn't exclusively gear heads playing off of a +2 handicap, and as such, focuses on the weekend golfer as much a anyone in the industry.  So much of his following is focused on swing tips more so than gear reviews.  He acknowledged as much when he was on TXG's podcast.  Regardless, there were so many better ways to go about this situation, right wrong or indifferent. 

 

All of that being said, the data and testing side of MGS is great, the forums are fantastic, and I'll still be reading the site as much as anyone.  I just wish they could have functional and professional/"grown up" conversations with others in the industry when there is a difference in opinion.  Everyone would benefit.

I think that it’s mostly Adam that seems to come off as less than humble no matter what the issue. I know he started MGS and should be proud of it, but he always comes off like “this is how we do it and the rest of you are wrong”  attitude in my opinion. 

[Larryd3]

I keep on looking at this thread hoping that someone official from MGS would comment on the thought process behind that post.  Not asking for them to defend it, just what their thoughts were.  Guess that isn't going to happen which ultimately is their prerogative.  

[cnosil]

30 minutes ago, Larryd3 said:

I keep on looking at this thread hoping that someone official from MGS would comment on the thought process behind that post.  Not asking for them to defend it, just what their thoughts were.  Guess that isn't going to happen which ultimately is their prerogative.  

MGS headquarters staff rarely comment on forum posts.  I think Adam has been pretty clear in the past on his thoughts about YouTube reviewers and just reiterated it in that blog post.  Basically to paraphrase my interpretation they are hitting some number of shots, giving basic feedback/opinion on a product, and providing the same type of BS communicated by the manufacturers and not providing real consumable data.

[Larryd3]

2 hours ago, cnosil said:

MGS headquarters staff rarely comment on forum posts. 

Thanks I didn't realize that.  Appreciate the info @cnosil

[funkyjudge]

On 1/18/2022 at 9:25 AM, TR1PTIK said:

I don't think anyone here would argue with the idea that Stealth is not worth the yds/$ (if any) over SIM or SIM2, but what I believe @Shapotomous was suggesting is that it wasn't a particularly great test in the sense that the average strike location and dynamic loft was quite different for each club. IMO this is where TXG will really suffer without someone like Matt. Unless something really felt off that guy could just produce a level of consistency that is probably only rivaled by Crossfield in the YT world.

I actually think that Ian Fraser is more consistent with his swing than Matt Blois is. Yes, Matty boy is a virtual machine, but so is Ian (as he should be, considering that he was a competitive professional golfer back in Scotland).

[the great spinks]

On 1/18/2022 at 11:17 AM, chisag said:

 

... Beating a dead horse, you see what you want to see and hear what you want to hear. I just don't know what some people expect from a review. Nobody is going to read a robotic and bland review and/or recommend it to others. As I stated earlier I have been accused of being a shill after a glowing review. Not sure why but Taylor Made seems to garner more of this type of reply than others especially at wrx. Nothing I enjoy more than reading a lovefest review when I know they are just being subjectively honest. As an equipment nerd I want to be excited about reviewed and/or tested equipment and then make up my own mind about how that equipment works for me. 

... I think some of us would give up statistically insignificant performance for a better look, sound and feel while others would only make a change of it were statistically better. If I am averaging 262 yds with my SIM2 and the Stealth produced 260.5 yds with dispersion, spin and trajectory being similar and I just loved the way it looked, sounded and felt more than my SIM2 I would make that change because I would simply enjoy hitting it more. Same for the new Callaway. Subjective for sure and if that 1.5 yds turned into 3 yds I am no longer making the change. Everyone has their own line in the sand. So give me a lovefest every time as long as that lovefest is for the equipment and not the OEM. MGS completely trashed the Chrome Soft several years ago and I don't remember anyone accusing them of having an anti-lovefest against Callaway. Equipment differences have become smaller and smaller so when a reviewer finds something that is different it is easy to get excited about it and want to share that excitement. 

What on earth does your line about seeing what I want to see have to do with the social media blitz for TM?  

[chisag]

12 hours ago, the great spinks said:

What on earth does your line about seeing what I want to see have to do with the social media blitz for TM?  

 

... I see a love fest for a new technology in the Stealth driver. Taylor Made also makes putters, irons, hybrids, fairway woods and balls. MGS has been critical of the TP5 especially but no love fest for an entire line of clubs or the company. 

[the great spinks]

On 1/22/2022 at 11:04 AM, chisag said:

 

... I see a love fest for a new technology in the Stealth driver. Taylor Made also makes putters, irons, hybrids, fairway woods and balls. MGS has been critical of the TP5 especially but no love fest for an entire line of clubs or the company. 

The lovefest goes beyond the Stealth Driver, my guy. 

[Jwb]

Would't you expect a bunch of golf nerds to geek out on such a significant change in club manufacturing?  If TM really does intend to never go back to TI that is pretty big.  I guess their most wanted data will support their anecdotal findings.  Cant wait to see!

On 1/25/2022 at 12:50 PM, the great spinks said:

The lovefest goes beyond the Stealth Driver, my guy. 

Hows that?  I see a love fest for the move away from TI and the advancements (in theory) that can bring to club design.  What other TM products are they shilling?  (I don't dosocial media so I cant troll their Twitbook feeds.)

Edited January 27, 2022 by Jwb
Edited for stupidity

[Jwb]

On 1/17/2022 at 7:49 AM, Headhammer said:

As a someone who has fully recovered from a 20-year personal struggle with audiophile nervosa I love this analogy!

Ps: I almost purchased the WATT/Puppy combo, but felt the speakers were too revealing for my eclectic musical tastes. 

I just Googled "WATT/Puppy combo.....I hope its is safe for work.....

[chisag]

On 1/17/2022 at 6:49 AM, Headhammer said:

As a someone who has fully recovered from a 20-year personal struggle with audiophile nervosa I love this analogy!

Ps: I almost purchased the WATT/Puppy combo, but felt the speakers were too revealing for my eclectic musical tastes. 

 

... I miss the audiophile golden years. I used to go to the Consumer Electronics show every year and the audiophile manufacturers were in a hotel on Michigan Ave in Chicago. You could go into a room with their equipment set out for listening and even bring your own CD or LP. Most back then did one thing and one thing only. Like Richard Vandersteen, Tom Thiel and Paul Hales that only designed and produced speakers and you could talk directly to them. Audiophile stores let you bring in your CD/LP and interchange connect cables, speaker cables and any combination of amp, pre-amp, processor and speakers. If you have the ear there were subtle and not so subtle differences when you made any change. I always got a kick out of those that said there is no difference between some cheap monster cable and a thousand dollars in Cardas interconnect/speaker wire. 

... I would add there is a big difference between turning out the lights and sitting in the dark listening to your favorite CD's and having music on in the background. And of course today with most music digital downloads the difference in sound from any system is minimal. As the saying went "your system is only as good as your weakest link" which actually sounds a lot like golf equipment and players games. 

 

[Headhammer]

@chisagYep, I travelled a lot and allways had my 5-6 demo disks with me when I checked out the local audio salons. I'd love to have all the money I spent trying to piece together the perfect system today then I'd be retired now and not semi-retired!

[Headhammer]

3 hours ago, Jwb said:

I just Googled "WATT/Puppy combo.....I hope its is safe for work.....

Well we did refer to that as speaker porn. 

[chisag]

19 hours ago, Headhammer said:

Well we did refer to that as speaker porn. 

 

... Ask and ye shall receive:

[Headhammer]

1 hour ago, chisag said:

 

... Ask and ye shall receive:

 

Really cool set-up!

[rstaley]

OMG This reminds me of when my sister and I were kids and she had just read an article on Teen Beat on someone (eg:Peter Frampton). Who cares?

 

[Klaisz]

On 1/28/2022 at 10:48 PM, rstaley said:

OMG This reminds me of when my sister and I were kids and she had just read an article on Teen Beat on someone (eg:Peter Frampton). Who cares?

 

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Edited October 28, 2022 by Klaisz