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MGS Beef with Rick Shiels? He addresses on his new podcast


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I have sat behind the scenes and read all these comments and listened to what Rick Shiels said about the comment.  It is clear to me that someone from MGS got their panties in a wad over a comment indicating Rick disagreed with the the opinions of at least someone at MGS and basically replied without thinking.  It looks like their feeling was along the line of who is this guy that knows nothing and is disagreeing with our obviously superior knowledge.  It was a cheap shot and was unprofessional.  I found Ricks response to be professional and wise.  My opinion of MGS went down some due to this and mine on Rick was solidified some.  MGS should reach out to Rick, behind the scenes, and say that that comment did not represent the entire staff at MGS, assuming it does not, and let it go.  Hopefully that has or will happen

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One thing Rick said which I'm a little confused about was when he was explaining how he understood the car crash analogy. Being a car crashing causing a impact force of however much, then if you have a bunch of weight in the back (trunk or boot) the impact would be greater. 

Where I am confused is, of course if you add weight the force will be greater. That makes sense, but where the analogy fails on me is TM hasn't claimed to be adding a bunch of head weight. Yes, they have moved the head weight (as most companies have), but the weight should be about the same. 

Finally I do recall on some review that TM felt weight the weight being at the back and greater that force is still moving forward at impact despite the face being "stopped" so to speak. Which could increase or have a greater rebound effect? I feel like this would be done better with photos. Either way I had to watch other videos after hearing how Rick explained it, because when I first heard it I thought it sounded like they were increasing the headweight a bunch. 

I believe that companies will always try new tech and invent new buzz words, but a thought that was brought up in our Mod Slack which could be discussed along this topic. Is it time for OEM's to stop claiming distance gains (on good strikes as we are at the limit) and start talking more about forgiveness and the added distance that forgiveness provides. This because we all know distance sells. Period. Forgiveness not so much, but if they could be intertwined maybe that is a better way to substantiate distance claims which some may see while others may not?

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 ⛳🛄 as of April 15, 2022

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Driver:   :callaway-small: Mavrik Sub Zero - Set at 9.5* with Aldila Rogue Max 65 gram 

Wood:    :cobra-small: F7 3 wood 14.5* w/ weight back

               :ping-small: G410 Crossover - 2 and 4 iron

Irons:     :ping-small: i210 5-U w/ Nippon Modus 105 stiff (2018 Tester)

Wedge:  :ping-small: Glide 2.0 54* 58* w/ Nippon Modus 105 Stiff

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Maybe this was already mentioned but I watched the TXG review and the Stealth ball speed was about 1/2 mph slower than the SIM2 for Ian.  Carry was about 4 yards further for Stealth probably due to spin and dynamic loft differences.  Their conclusion leaned toward not replacing a SIM2 or even a SIM (also part of the review) but probably an older generation.  I don't know how many shots of each that review included as they edit footage.  That seems to be about the same message as RIck.

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Modern Bag: :Sub70:  849 Pro 9*, Hazrdous Smoke S Flex;   :titelist-small:  915F 3w, Diamana S+ 70 S flex;  Snake Eyes 15*, & 23* Hybrids; :mizuno-small: JPX 900 Forged 5 - PW, PX LZ 6.0;  :cleveland-small: Tour Action 49*, 53*, 57*; PX LZ 6.5 ;  :ping-small: Heppler Fetch;  Ball - :Snell: MTB-Black; Bag - :1590477705_SunMountain: H2NO 

Classic Bag:  Driver - :wilson_staff_small: Persimmon; 3w - :Hogan: Speed Slot; 5w - :wilson_staff_small: Tour Block; 3 - pw - :wilson_staff_small: Dynapower; sw - Ram Tom Watson;  putter - bullseye standard or flange.

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3 minutes ago, Shapotomous said:

Maybe this was already mentioned but I watched the TXG review and the Stealth ball speed was about 1/2 mph slower than the SIM2 for Ian.  Carry was about 4 yards further for Stealth probably due to spin and launch angle differences.  Their conclusion leaned toward not replacing a SIM2 or even a SIM (also part of the review) but probably an older generation.  I don't know how many shots of each that review included as they edit footage.  That seems to be about the same message as RIck.

The only thing I noted on the TXG review was the strike locations for the drivers. The Sim had a MUCH lower strike pattern, whether that was depth of face or just how it was being swung I don't know. 

In the end I believe there is probably a bigger difference on off center hits vs center strikes... however I'll just have to wait to get one in my own hands to see how it performs for me. 

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 ⛳🛄 as of April 15, 2022

SuperSpeed 2020 from 100-112 and climbing!

Driver:   :callaway-small: Mavrik Sub Zero - Set at 9.5* with Aldila Rogue Max 65 gram 

Wood:    :cobra-small: F7 3 wood 14.5* w/ weight back

               :ping-small: G410 Crossover - 2 and 4 iron

Irons:     :ping-small: i210 5-U w/ Nippon Modus 105 stiff (2018 Tester)

Wedge:  :ping-small: Glide 2.0 54* 58* w/ Nippon Modus 105 Stiff

Putter:   :odyssey-small: Stroke Lab 7 35* and oversized grip (2019 Tester)

Balls:      :srixon-small: Z Star

Other:     :Arccos: 

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6 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

One thing Rick said which I'm a little confused about was when he was explaining how he understood the car crash analogy. Being a car crashing causing a impact force of however much, then if you have a bunch of weight in the back (trunk or boot) the impact would be greater. 

Where I am confused is, of course if you add weight the force will be greater. That makes sense, but where the analogy fails on me is TM hasn't claimed to be adding a bunch of head weight. Yes, they have moved the head weight (as most companies have), but the weight should be about the same. 

Example of why I stopped watching Rick. Things he’s says don’t make sense and if he’s not reiterating the oem material he’s not all that knowledgeable on equipment design 

1 hour ago, Shapotomous said:

Maybe this was already mentioned but I watched the TXG review and the Stealth ball speed was about 1/2 mph slower than the SIM2 for Ian.  Carry was about 4 yards further for Stealth probably due to spin and launch angle differences.  Their conclusion leaned toward not replacing a SIM2 or even a SIM (also part of the review) but probably an older generation.  I don't know how many shots of each that review included as they edit footage.  That seems to be about the same message as RIck.

I haven’t watched the video yet but this is different than what their guy Mike at their other location answered on Instagram when asked about sim or sim2 and said stealth. I’ve seen some other stories where he likes the stealth as for 2022 drivers

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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On 1/15/2022 at 3:46 PM, BostonSal said:

Golf equipment reviews remind me of hi fi equipment reviews back in the days when people bought LPs and CDs rather than streamed music on their telephones....and spent serious money on the equipment to play them.

One kind of reviewer talked about esoteric sound qualities (like "liquidity") in terms that nobody could understand,

and the other kind of reviewer said,

"There are a lot of great premium loudspeakers on the market today and

the "Wilson WATT/Puppy" is one of them."

Rick seems to be one of the latter, which makes him easier for me to understand.

As a someone who has fully recovered from a 20-year personal struggle with audiophile nervosa I love this analogy!

Ps: I almost purchased the WATT/Puppy combo, but felt the speakers were too revealing for my eclectic musical tastes. 

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3 Wood: :cobra-small: King Speedzone 13.5* HZRDUS Smoke Black Shaft

2 & 3 Hybrids: :cobra-small: Speedzone Recoil 480 ESX Shaft

Irons: :cobra-small: Speedzone 5-GW Recoil 460 ESX Shafts

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2 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

The only thing I noted on the TXG review was the strike locations for the drivers. The Sim had a MUCH lower strike pattern, whether that was depth of face or just how it was being swung I don't know. 

In the end I believe there is probably a bigger difference on off center hits vs center strikes... however I'll just have to wait to get one in my own hands to see how it performs for me. 

Yep, strike locations were different and dynamic loft was very different, 12.7 for Stealth, 15.5 for SIM2 and 18 for SIM.

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Classic Bag:  Driver - :wilson_staff_small: Persimmon; 3w - :Hogan: Speed Slot; 5w - :wilson_staff_small: Tour Block; 3 - pw - :wilson_staff_small: Dynapower; sw - Ram Tom Watson;  putter - bullseye standard or flange.

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7 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Example of why I stopped watching Rick. Things he’s says don’t make sense and if he’s not reiterating the oem material he’s not all that knowledgeable on equipment design 

I haven’t watched the video yet but this is different than what their guy Mike at their other location answered on Instagram when asked about sim or sim2 and said stealth. I’ve seen some other stories where he likes the stealth as for 2022 drivers


Mike was sitting right next to Ian Fraser and they agreed that, unless you’re hitting a driver that is three to four generations old, the Stealth is not going to provide any significant increase in performance (distance, forgiveness, etc.) Both of them agreed that it isn’t worth getting a Stealth driver if you are currently playing a SIM or SIM2 model.

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Driver: Ping G425 Max, 9*, Miyazaki  Kuala Mizu Tour Issue 6S, 44.75" playing length

4-Wood: Titleist TS2, 16.5*, Miyazaki Kuala Mizu Tour Issue 7S, 42.75" playing length

5/7-Wood: Callaway Epic Flash Sub Zero set to 20* loft; Tensei Blue 75-S, 41.5" playing length

Hybrids: Exotics EXS Pro (22*), Mitsubishi Tensei Silver 75S

Irons: Exotics EXS220 5-iron and New Level MODB-1 (6-iron through PW), KBS TGI Tour 80 (stiff) shafts

Wedges: New Hogan Equalizer wedges (48* and 56* + Maltby TSW Forged 52-8, all bent 1* weak

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Saw the Rick Shiels interview before reading the MGS comment. I am new to MSG, comments like this take away the independence appeal that attracted me in the first place. I understand a crack at 2m subscribers, have also seen the TXG Stealth review and the conclusion it would not be much better than last year's models.

Surely as an industry we can do better than regenerating marketing hype? Stealth, in Australia is $300-400 more expensive than last year's models at circa $1,100. Does it have the extra value? What are the real brand value propositions when last year's purchases are discarded as inferior every time these companies promote a new "shiny toy" - golf is one of the worst at this IMO.

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On 1/14/2022 at 4:59 PM, RickyBobby_PR said:

Other than maybe rock Shiels what yt reviewer hits that many shots?

 

Even if they do, it doesn’t seem like any of them state their shot sample size when they share numbers so IMHO it is reasonable for people to assume that the sample size is closer to the handful of shots shown in the video than hundreds. My recommendation to all of them would be to add a graphic with a note of the sample size anytime they share numbers.

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8 hours ago, storm319 said:

Even if they do, it doesn’t seem like any of them state their shot sample size when they share numbers so IMHO it is reasonable for people to assume that the sample size is closer to the handful of shots shown in the video than hundreds. My recommendation to all of them would be to add a graphic with a note of the sample size anytime they share numbers.

Do you have the same recommendation to MGS, who have been making more and more conclusions without sharing any data? I don't disagree with you, but I prefer to keep my criticisms consistent. And face with the choice, I'd prefer to see the data (most yt'ers) on a small sample than know there was a large sample, but not get to see the data (MGS lately). 

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27 minutes ago, Riverboat said:

Do you have the same recommendation to MGS, who have been making more and more conclusions without sharing any data? I don't disagree with you, but I prefer to keep my criticisms consistent. And face with the choice, I'd prefer to see the data (most yt'ers) on a small sample than know there was a large sample, but not get to see the data (MGS lately). 

Where is  MGS not showing the data on their tests?   MGS is ultimately a media outlet and they do a variety of reporting;  their first looks are essentially media reports that introduce equipment, they do stories on aspects of clubs or manufacturers.    When they “test” a product they always seem to provide data; however, people criticize the data they provide as not being hat they want to see.  

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6 minutes ago, Riverboat said:

Do you have the same recommendation to MGS, who have been making more and more conclusions without sharing any data? I don't disagree with you, but I prefer to keep my criticisms consistent. 

The criticism was not about the totality of the data presented (that is an entirely separate topic), but simply that it is a set practice to share the sample size when averages are presented. In this case, MGS lists the shot sample size on all of their most wanted club articles even though they do not share discrete averages of each player/club.

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16 hours ago, funkyjudge said:


Mike was sitting right next to Ian Fraser and they agreed that, unless you’re hitting a driver that is three to four generations old, the Stealth is not going to provide any significant increase in performance (distance, forgiveness, etc.) Both of them agreed that it isn’t worth getting a Stealth driver if you are currently playing a SIM or SIM2 model.

I don't think anyone here would argue with the idea that Stealth is not worth the yds/$ (if any) over SIM or SIM2, but what I believe @Shapotomous was suggesting is that it wasn't a particularly great test in the sense that the average strike location and dynamic loft was quite different for each club. IMO this is where TXG will really suffer without someone like Matt. Unless something really felt off that guy could just produce a level of consistency that is probably only rivaled by Crossfield in the YT world.

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Irons: Bridgestone J40 CB (3-PW) Dynamic Gold Tour Issue X100
Wedges: Bridgestone Tour B XW-1 54* & 58* Nippon Modus 3 105
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1 hour ago, storm319 said:

 do not share discrete averages of each player/club.

Which is the data that is actually interesting. You seem to know a little about statistics, so you know that with large sample sizes, "significant difference" (statistical) can  be achieved with miniscule actual differences. Doesn't help me to know that there was a "significant" difference between 2 clubs with thousands of shots. The part that is interesting is knowing if that difference was 12 yards (real world significance) or 1.3 yards (who really cares). That is the data we are often not given or have to dig for on MGS. Most of the yt guys show you this, side by side, immediately. It's not hard to do and it's not much to ask. 

Edited by Riverboat

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5W: Cleveland launcher 

3H: Wilson Deep Red

5-GW: PXG 0211

SW LW: Mizuno MP T5

P: Scott Cameron Newport

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1 hour ago, cnosil said:

Where is  MGS not showing the data on their tests?   MGS is ultimately a media outlet and they do a variety of reporting;  their first looks are essentially media reports that introduce equipment, they do stories on aspects of clubs or manufacturers.    When they “test” a product they always seem to provide data; however, people criticize the data they provide as not being hat they want to see.  

The most recent example was the conclusion that matte balls are terrible especially when wet. I don't recall seeing a single piece of data provided by MGS to support it. 

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5W: Cleveland launcher 

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5-GW: PXG 0211

SW LW: Mizuno MP T5

P: Scott Cameron Newport

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48 minutes ago, Riverboat said:

The most recent example was the conclusion that matte balls are terrible especially when wet. I don't recall seeing a single piece of data provided by MGS to support it. 

Nope, there hasn’t been any data published as it wasn’t a formal test.  MGS does lots of experiments some of which are reported on in detail and others aren’t.  The discussion on matte vs gloss was part of a no putts given episode in 2020.  Generally MGS won’t test those balls as they aren’t typically tour level balls which is what they focus on for testing.  

 

1 hour ago, Riverboat said:

The part that is interesting is knowing if that difference was 12 yards (real world significance) or 1.3 yards (who really cares). That is the data we are often not given or have to dig for on MGS. Most of the yt guys show you this, side by side, immediately. It's not hard to do and it's not much to ask. 


Much easier to do for YT reviewers since it is one golfer; as part of most wanted  there are 35 golfer jumbled together and you may see significant distance variations with one golfer but not another.   They present the average distances  for the entirety of the test group and then for three swing speed categories.   If you saw two players and one was 10 yards shorter than some baseline and the other was 10 yards longer you still wouldn’t get much information as the complaint would be I need to see all the detailed data for each golfer.  Even with all the swing data there would still be intangibles that could influence performance.  Either way you personally should still go out and test for yourself;  MGS data simply shows that looking across golfers this club has a good chance of performing the best; not that it will or that the worst driver in the test would really perform best for you.   

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