Stealth, the future, and marketing

[John Bachman]

I think marketing the forgiveness, or MOI would be the way to go makes sense as long as they can verify their claims. Unfortunately marketing length is sexier even though increases seem minimal unless you’re using really outdated equipment. 

[DriverBreaker]

36 minutes ago, silver & black said:

I currently play a TS3. I'm good for another 3-4 years. I'm not a club changer just for the sake of having new stuff. I tend to stick with what I have for 5 years and more. Marketing people hate me. 

After my own heart! My 3 and 5 woods are 2007 TaylorMade Burner TP’s. 

 

23 minutes ago, John Bachman said:

I think marketing the forgiveness, or MOI would be the way to go makes sense as long as they can verify their claims. Unfortunately marketing length is sexier even though increases seem minimal unless you’re using really outdated equipment. 

Yes!  And I think they can.  They market distance claims each year that aren’t real for all players.  You say, “On average, our testers only lost 3mph on off center strikes compared to last year’s model of 5mph.”  And they can still push MOI closer to the limit on many drivers.  I know it influences other variables, but if you already have good speed, for a good portion of golfers the added forgiveness is worth it.

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, John Bachman said:

I think marketing the forgiveness, or MOI would be the way to go makes sense as long as they can verify their claims. Unfortunately marketing length is sexier even though increases seem minimal unless you’re using really outdated equipment. 

High moi doesn’t equal more forgivness. The Ping max heads have high moi but they also have a tendency to spin more. of spin that head isn’t forgiving for them.

it’s not a cut and dry scenario.

Just like some won’t see year to year improvements in distance from a company moi can be the same way.

Its why people need to get fit and then go get fit and try the next release to see if it has any improvements.

Things like standard deviation get ignored by many and that factor alone  an make a difference in results 

[BNewton51]

8 hours ago, GolfSpy_CS said:

So I’ve been thinking about Driver technology, marketing, and the future of golf equipment lately.  With all of the hype and subsequent pushback on the new Stealth driver line, here are some thoughts.

1) USGA sets the limits on how hot a driver can be (see cool video on the process here):

2) Any additional gains in ball speed would come from longer and lighter shafts or anything that results in swinging the club faster.  Remember the TaylorMade Burner Superfast 2.0 drivers with the long and light shafts?  46.5” long and only 45 grams!  I had one and man that thing could hit missiles (whenever I could actually feel where it was in the backswing that is…). 
 

3) I think that as more and more golf influencers and content creators start admitting that year to year driver differences are minimal at best (if they exist at all), consumers are starting to be more critical of marketing claims.  For sure there have always been those who question the claims, but I think it feels like more consumers are catching on. 
 

4) Would OEMs be better served using their marketing dollars advertising things like forgiveness?  For example, maybe forgiveness is the new frontier that is focused on?  The USGA limit on MOI is 6,000g-cm^2.  Should OEMs say, “This year’s driver averages only 3mph of ball speed loss on toe/heel strikes compared to center strikes.”  Or, “We’ve already made the fastest face on a driver possible, now we’re giving you the most forgiveness so you can be aggressive off the tee and hit bombs with confidence.”  To me, personally, that is a much bigger selling point and tech I’d be interested in vs “This year’s driver is 10yds longer than last year’s.”

For an interesting read on CoG and MOI in drivers, MGS had an article a few years back:  https://mygolfspy.com/2019-driver-center-of-gravity-and-moi-report/

It is cool to know that moving weight low and back or forward realistically only happens within the space of a Micro SD card. 

What say you fellow spies?  What type of marketing do you think OEMs are best positioned to use?  Obviously distance promises sell, and the OEMs know this and have done their research, but perhaps there is a new frontier approach to it that could be pursued?

Watched a pretty decent video today (tough to admit that because I don't like much of his stuff) from Finch.  He did a video on the Ping, Taylor Made and new Callaway Driver.  When hitting them you could see 2 yards difference.  So that's $500 for 2 more yards, MAYBE, if you strike it properly?!  But the main take away was that Callaway's new Driver actually boasted that there was more speed across the face this year and was more forgiving.  That's the main thing for the 425 and why many have said it's the best driver going right now. 

So in essence, what you're saying there that the Marketing dollars and the research SHOULD be more focused on forgiveness.  Honestly, if you're topped out on how hot the driver can be, this only makes sense for you to be churning out new product year in and year out.  However most people mess that up cause they're right in line when that new gear comes out not so much cause they need it, but because it's NEW and they want it.  Until the consumer comes around and starts telling these big boys we ain't buying the status quo will continue as it has been. Sadly. 

[DriverBreaker]

23 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

High moi doesn’t equal more forgivness. The Ping max heads have high moi but they also have a tendency to spin more. of spin that head isn’t forgiving for them.

it’s not a cut and dry scenario.

Just like some won’t see year to year improvements in distance from a company moi can be the same way.

Its why people need to get fit and then go get fit and try the next release to see if it has any improvements.

Things like standard deviation get ignored by many and that factor alone  an make a difference in results 

For sure there are more variables.  The USGA says MOI is an “indication’ of forgiveness and seems to think it is worth putting some kind of limit on it.  And with the new rule limiting the length of the driver shaft, they sure seem to be sticklers for not making the game easier:

 https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/Equipment/Equipment Rules Final.pdf

100% agree on getting fit to see the best club for you and if it beats your current setup. Yes, Std Dev should be high on a priority list.  Yeah we might have crushed that one drive 300, but also had 10 shots that went 240-280 as well. Consistency is so important in golf.  Tighter long/short and left/right dispersion typically leads to better scores…. Unless you putt like I do…

 

Interesting article from Ralph Maltby on MOI:  https://ralphmaltby.com/how-moment-of-inertia-moi-affects-driver-playability/

He says a lot on the topic and even seems to lean toward MOI gains even being maxed out already.  
 

The concluding thoughts:

[cnosil]

5 hours ago, Middler said:

While that's all true, I think it's way more primal than that for 90%+ of players. They care way more about out driving their buddies than "analytics." All of the 41 guys I play with regularly, including some very good players, don't know or care about golf tech. None of them are even aware of MGS (and I don't recruit because data is noise to them). They go on brand, looks, feel, marketing hype and what someone else (local pro or buddies) tell them.

I do agree with you;  the male golfer wants to hit it farther and whether it improves their game is not a consideration.  When I talk analytics I am not even thinking MGS;  I am talking more strokes gained, Bryson, DECADE, TV commentators.    The  people in this forum that talk about shafts and fittings and data are the <1% of golf enthusiasts.  As others have said in this post, most people just want to know if you play a regular or stiff shaft and they are only interested in your equipment if you hit is farther then them

 

[T McKinnon]

7 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

@GolfSpy_CS I'm glad you brought this to the forum. 

I know we had some back and forth in slack, but great to hear others thoughts on it. From reading a few responses I think there are a few other questions to add with this. If drivers from 5-10 years ago are still seeing significant gains (So Epic OG to Rogue ST) at what point is that turnover irrelevant. Meaning where may be the oldest peak driver which has consistently been close to the max? Is the G400 Max a potential benchmark to be surpassed? 

I think distance will always be king. I haven't dove too much into the marketing claims this year and even if they are still claiming consistency and forgiveness the main focal point is still ball speed and therefore distance. It is interesting that most OEM's have moved on from the this crown feature will help you move the club faster (I know sim had that on the bottom). Ping seems to be the only ones featuring this. 

So I would love to see a shift as I don't know how much more we would see in distance gains that would be a drastic difference. However as a amateur I would benefit from greater forgiveness overall. This has also been touched on, but maybe I'm in a small group that is looking for this and the masses are still looking for bigger gains and that is why distance gains are still king in marketing? 

For me, being fitted with the proper shaft is the most important factor in regard to distance and accuracy!  Why don't we hear more discussions regarding shafts?

[John Bachman]

35 minutes ago, BNewton51 said:

Watched a pretty decent video today (tough to admit that because I don't like much of his stuff) from Finch.  He did a video on the Ping, Taylor Made and new Callaway Driver.  When hitting them you could see 2 yards difference.  So that's $500 for 2 more yards, MAYBE, if you strike it properly?!  But the main take away was that Callaway's new Driver actually boasted that there was more speed across the face this year and was more forgiving.  That's the main thing for the 425 and why many have said it's the best driver going right now. 

So in essence, what you're saying there that the Marketing dollars and the research SHOULD be more focused on forgiveness.  Honestly, if you're topped out on how hot the driver can be, this only makes sense for you to be churning out new product year in and year out.  However most people mess that up cause they're right in line when that new gear comes out not so much cause they need it, but because it's NEW and they want it.  Until the consumer comes around and starts telling these big boys we ain't buying the status quo will continue as it has been. Sadly. 

I have been as guilty as most for getting something new because it’s new and probably will in the future. The last time I did it was from a F9 to a Speedzone and I got a big drop off in performance. I’d like to see more availability in outdoor testing because I think the results tend to be more accurate. I’ve hit indoors where the staff was honest enough to tell me that the numbers produced aren’t always accurate. 

[cnosil]

18 minutes ago, T McKinnon said:

For me, being fitted with the proper shaft is the most important factor in regard to distance and accuracy!  Why don't we hear more discussions regarding shafts?

Hear discussions where?   Read this forum or most places that talk about clubs you will hear that you should get fit for clubs.    The general reason you don't hear about shafts or fitting is because the overwhelming majority of players really don't care or just buy OTR. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, GolfSpy_CS said:

For sure there are more variables.  The USGA says MOI is an “indication’ of forgiveness and seems to think it is worth putting some kind of limit on it.  And with the new rule limiting the length of the driver shaft, they sure seem to be sticklers for not making the game easier:

 https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/Equipment/Equipment Rules Final.pdf

100% agree on getting fit to see the best club for you and if it beats your current setup. Yes, Std Dev should be high on a priority list.  Yeah we might have crushed that one drive 300, but also had 10 shots that went 240-280 as well. Consistency is so important in golf.  Tighter long/short and left/right dispersion typically leads to better scores…. Unless you putt like I do…

 

Interesting article from Ralph Maltby on MOI:  https://ralphmaltby.com/how-moment-of-inertia-moi-affects-driver-playability/

He says a lot on the topic and even seems to lean toward MOI gains even being maxed out already.  
 

The concluding thoughts:

Lots of good info there about moi and I agree about its role in forgivness. I’ve played the original cure putters because of that. They were really good at off center hits and still keeping ball on intended line and with speed. 
 

Just don’t think it’s a viable approach for marketing at least from a value perspective. Also the marketing isn’t for golfers who know what it’s about or what it does.

Saying a driver is faster, longer and lets you hit it straighter will get more attention.

These manufacturers have tons of data they analyze and use for their marketing as well as r&d. They are focused on the person who is walking into the store and buying without testing. The golfer that knows they want x loft in y flex because that’s what they play now. 

56 minutes ago, T McKinnon said:

For me, being fitted with the proper shaft is the most important factor in regard to distance and accuracy!  Why don't we hear more discussions regarding shafts?

Because the shaft isn’t nearly as important as people think. Wishon did a great article on shaft myths almost a decade ago. I posted some of them in the shaft sub forum but if you wanted to read the article you can search for wishon shaft myths 

No two people swing alike even at the same swing speed.

[DriverBreaker]

20 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Lots of good info there about moi and I agree about its role in forgivness. I’ve played the original cure putters because of that. They were really good at off center hits and still keeping ball on intended line and with speed. 
 

Just don’t think it’s a viable approach for marketing at least from a value perspective. Also the marketing isn’t for golfers who know what it’s about or what it does.

Saying a driver is faster, longer and lets you hit it straighter will get more attention.

Fair enough.  I just wish there was more honesty in golf marketing.  Not all golfers scour forums like MGS and others and dive into the data and technology and know that certain marketing claims are unfounded.

Some might say ‘fair play’ and the consumer should do their own research.  Fair enough and not arguing that.  Golfers don’t have to spend their money if they don’t want to.

But you know the saying, “You can wish in one hand and in the other and see which one fills up first.” 

[RickyBobby_PR]

58 minutes ago, GolfSpy_CS said:

Fair enough.  I just wish there was more honesty in golf marketing.  Not all golfers scour forums like MGS and others and dive into the data and technology and know that certain marketing claims are unfounded.

Some might say ‘fair play’ and the consumer should do their own research.  Fair enough and not arguing that.  Golfers don’t have to spend their money if they don’t want to.

But you know the saying, “You can wish in one hand and in the other and see which one fills up first.” 

I find it funny that golfers only complain about marketing and frequency of releases and forget golf isn’t any different than any other consumer products.

[russtopherb]

32 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

I find it funny that golfers only complain about marketing and frequency of releases and forget golf isn’t any different than any other consumer products.

I think the caveat there is golfers expect their new equipment to have an immediate impact on their game. I don’t think folks buy a new car and think they’ll immediately become a better driver, or a new mixer and think they’ll become a chef as soon as they plug it in. But golfers buy a new driver, hit it with a massive OTT swing and scream that they didn’t hit it 300 yards down the center like they thought they would thanks to “marketing”. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

11 hours ago, russtopherb said:

I think the caveat there is golfers expect their new equipment to have an immediate impact on their game. I don’t think folks buy a new car and think they’ll immediately become a better driver, or a new mixer and think they’ll become a chef as soon as they plug it in. But golfers buy a new driver, hit it with a massive OTT swing and scream that they didn’t hit it 300 yards down the center like they thought they would thanks to “marketing”. 

For cars the reference was about releases more so than performance. 

But you advertisements for sharpest knives, quicker picker upper, best non stick pan.

Marketing is there to sell. Like it or not it’s on the consumer to research and see if the claims are true.

 

 

[PedroCerrano]

I'm sure this will get a lot of trial from the marketing angle, since most folks are still looking for the elusive "300" off the tee.  I fell for it and got fitted for the Stealth, and to be blunt, I hated it.  I didn't particularly care for the feel on the few dead center hits I was able to make with it, and it didn't outdo my current stick (Epic Flash 9.0 w/Evenflow Black Stiff) which I can consistently hit the middle of the clubface with.

 

I'm sure a lot of the above is due to the shaft offerings and probably the limitations of the fitter.  The guy saw me in an Evenflow and grabbed a Hazardous shaft for me to try...those two are opposite, right?

 

For a lot of folks who have 2018 or earlier stuff...I think this will be a winner from a Marketing standpoint.  As far as performance?  I think it will take 2-3 iterations of the technology to really make a difference.

[Middler]

17 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

I find it funny that golfers only complain about marketing and frequency of releases and forget golf isn’t any different than any other consumer products.

People here complain about marketing because this is a golf forum - as it should be. I am sure they/we all complain about marketing on other consumer products as well. There have always been endless discussions about how often to replace phones, laptops, cars, appliances, TVs, social media platforms, you name it - all littered with marketing hype about how WONDERFUL the new products are...

The truth about marketing hype is that it works.

That’s why you see so much of it. 

THEY give us what the most we's RESPOND to...who's fault is that?

[fixyurdivot]

Cobra has weighed in on the debate as to what marketing feature is driving the bus...

"The new COBRA LTDx irons have strong lofts. I mean, really strong.

Like a full degree stronger than last year’s RADSPEED irons strong.

Like a 26.5-degree 7-iron strong.

“Right now, we feel like we have to compete,” says COBRA R&D VP Tom Olsavsky.  “Compete in distance and everything else. You can’t win a lot of battles if you’re short.”

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

16 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Cobra has weighed in on the debate as to what marketing feature is driving the bus...

"The new COBRA LTDx irons have strong lofts. I mean, really strong.

Like a full degree stronger than last year’s RADSPEED irons strong.

Like a 26.5-degree 7-iron strong.

“Right now, we feel like we have to compete,” says COBRA R&D VP Tom Olsavsky.  “Compete in distance and everything else. You can’t win a lot of battles if you’re short.”

 

Same approach titleist took with TS woods and hybrids. They needed to compete off the shelf.  
 

Tom is a very smart guy. Spent lots of time talking to him over the course of a weekend in Orlando several years back. The are trying to put out what’s best for the large majority of golfer who don’t get fit. They know golfers on forums are more likely to be fit, are going to try and setup bag based in distance gaps.

 Distance sells

as they move cg around on irons and change weighting and stuff the lofts are going to get stronger. Some sets have differently technology on them like we see with TM and the speed slots in part of the set.

[fixyurdivot]

2 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Same approach titleist took with TS woods and hybrids. They needed to compete off the shelf.  
 

Tom is a very smart guy. Spent lots of time talking to him over the course of a weekend in Orlando several years back. The are trying to put out what’s best for the large majority of golfer who don’t get fit. They know golfers on forums are more likely to be fit, are going to try and setup bag based in distance gaps.

 Distance sells

as they move cg around on irons and change weighting and stuff the lofts are going to get stronger. Some sets have differently technology on them like we see with TM and the speed slots in part of the set.

Yes, I was surprised to see the T400's currently own the "most jacked lofts" title .

[dlow206]

24 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Cobra has weighed in on the debate as to what marketing feature is driving the bus...

"The new COBRA LTDx irons have strong lofts. I mean, really strong.

Like a full degree stronger than last year’s RADSPEED irons strong.

Like a 26.5-degree 7-iron strong.

“Right now, we feel like we have to compete,” says COBRA R&D VP Tom Olsavsky.  “Compete in distance and everything else. You can’t win a lot of battles if you’re short.”

 

This is not a direct response to you, but I know a lot of people complain about "loft jacking" and that 6 iron is now a 7 iron, etc., etc.

I don't think that this is a bad thing as long as people can still hit the right numbers (launch, spin, descent, etc.). I know I can use all the distance I can get, because I am not a big hitter. 

[fixyurdivot]

2 minutes ago, dlow206 said:

This is not a direct response to you, but I know a lot of people complain about "loft jacking" and that 6 iron is now a 7 iron, etc., etc.

I don't think that this is a bad thing as long as people can still hit the right numbers (launch, spin, descent, etc.). I know I can use all the distance I can get, because I am not a big hitter. 

Totally agree.  But this also begs the question why folks do not simply move to shorter tees?  Yes, rhetorical, we know why .

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

50 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Yes, I was surprised to see the T400's currently own the "most jacked lofts" title .

The super gi set. 

[fixyurdivot]

15 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

The super gi set. 

Which seems contrary to me.  So many high handicap players have difficulty getting mid and long irons launched.

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, fixyurdivot said:

Which seems contrary to me.  So many high handicap players have difficulty getting mid and long irons launched.

These were geared towards the “real slow” swinger.

I wouldn’t say it’s a high handicap thing with getting the ball in the air. I play with low and mid handicap golfers who don’t hit a bery high ball and I play with some high handicaps that do(they are high handicap because they suck at short game and inside 150).

For some golfers the issue is technique where they think they have to help the ball in the air and usually have bad ball placement in their stance. This is why so many hit thin shots or top the ball. 

This is why it’s hard to say GI or SGI would improve one’s game or that they are for specific handicaps. Also why each persons swing needs to be evaluated when choosing an iron. Turf interaction, contact point on face, spin/launch and so on. 
 

Edit: I have a buddy in the Midwest who has 115+ swing speed and hits a very high ball with all his clubs. 
 

His last two fittings were ap3 irons (iirc kbs tour shafts) and tsi2(numbers were similar in tsi2 and 3) with av raw white shaft in x, numbers between  He has tsi2 fw as well.

Hes looking at t200 as possible next set of irons. 
 

Was also fit into left dash during a virtual fit last year and has become his new gamer ball

[Dog Faced Pony Soldier]

It's probably safe to assume golf club engineers have a substantial focus on distance. Seems obvious the Marketing division would share the same goal; especially when the Sales division likely encourages such a practice. 

[cnosil]

12 minutes ago, Dog Faced Pony Soldier said:

It's probably safe to assume golf club engineers have a substantial focus on distance. Seems obvious the Marketing division would share the same goal; especially when the Sales division likely encourages such a practice. 

I agree but perhaps there are different means to achieve distance claims   
 

Companies want to produce what sells to obviously make money.  The average golfer is lured by more distance.   The engineers are told to produce more distance and the marketing guys try to package that simply so it grabs peoples attention.  Forgiveness is a means to more distance so if the center strike on last years and this years driver go 250 yards but off center hits on last years driver goes 240 but on the new one it goes 245,  am I getting more distance?  For the good ball striker no, but for the poor ball striker yes.  
 

the story for TM this year is the new material and how it will revolutionize golf.  Yes there have been carbon face drivers before and from someone that strikes the ball well maybe no change but for some yes based on the above paragraph.   Because the face allowed me to design other aspects of the club to get more forgiveness, I will market this simply and say the new face gives you more distance.   the geek in some of us will want to know how they moved the internal weighting and changed the structure of the club but 99% of the golfers just think it is because if the face.  It’s easy marketing and noticeable.  Why did TM make white drivers? Because they were easy to spot on TV 
 

 

[Dog Faced Pony Soldier]

3 minutes ago, cnosil said:

The engineers are told to produce more distance and the marketing guys try to package that simply so it grabs peoples attention.

My assumption is the Engineering division doesn't need to be directed to seek out distance gains, just like the Sales division doesn't need to be directed to write more purchase orders. These goals are inherent in the reason for their respective existence in the first place. I guess there's exceptions, but I see achieving more distance as a core design goal that club engineers are constantly working on; and by which their success as engineers are judged (even among their peers in engineering). 

[RickyBobby_PR]

2 hours ago, Dog Faced Pony Soldier said:

It's probably safe to assume golf club engineers have a substantial focus on distance. Seems obvious the Marketing division would share the same goal; especially when the Sales division likely encourages such a practice. 

They work hand in hand. It’s why there tends to be restrictions on club price. The sales and marketing team have a price point the overall budget includes the marketing costs, r&d, materials and so on.

While a member of a previous site Wilson talked about how one year they left the r&d team do their thing on a hybrid. When they were finished the price was too high to even consider bringing it to retail. 

[Dog Faced Pony Soldier]

8 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

They work hand in hand. It’s why there tends to be restrictions on club price. The sales and marketing team have a price point the overall budget includes the marketing costs, r&d, materials and so on.

While a member of a previous site Wilson talked about how one year they left the r&d team do their thing on a hybrid. When they were finished the price was too high to even consider bringing it to retail. 

I’ve made a career of working for manufacturers of consumer goods so I’m intimately familiar. Regularly I’m asked “why doesn’t it have/do ______?” You’re right… The answer is nearly always cost. 
 

My point is the industry focus on distance is because everyone from beginner to pro focuses on distance. It’s like asking why restaurants focus on making their food taste good. Because that’s largest demand from the end users! 

[RickyBobby_PR]

9 hours ago, Dog Faced Pony Soldier said:

I’ve made a career of working for manufacturers of consumer goods so I’m intimately familiar. Regularly I’m asked “why doesn’t it have/do ______?” You’re right… The answer is nearly always cost. 
 

My point is the industry focus on distance is because everyone from beginner to pro focuses on distance. It’s like asking why restaurants focus on making their food taste good. Because that’s largest demand from the end users! 

Agree. I was just adding on to what you were saying based on my knowledge and discussions with people who work in sales/marketing and design in the golf industry.