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Stealth carbon face durability?? (Post PGA show pics from Reddit)


TBS

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12 hours ago, Manavs said:

As I mentioned earlier, the graphite design booth had some heads, as did the GEARs booth.  The GEARs booth head was the one in the reddit photo.

 

Why wouldn't I post it here? or anywhere for that matter - I'm not the guy to be the messenger on this one.  I simply wanted to add some color from my observations. I don't have the patience to keep up with posts in public forums.  My friend Bill Presse posted the original pic on his fb - i'll post the link below.   This driver was treated the best as it was calibrated for use with GEARs - meaning the driver wasnt just thrown around.   Bag rattle sans headcover, plastic tees are going to be problematic.   The original Japanese Gloire reserve version has a problem with sharpie ink permanently embossing into the face that wouldnt come off even with acetone.  That doesnt seem to be the case with this one. 

 

https://www.facebook.com/bill.presse/posts/7221563874535473

 

Thanks for the additional link and information.   As I mentioned earlier, I have reached out to my contacts at MGS and asked them to film a test and see if they can dent the face with a fingernail.   I looked at some of the heads that are used for their most wanted testing and did not see any damage.  Not saying that this is or isn’t an issue but those photos were the first example or evidence of this problem and I would think other reviewers would be seeing the same thing.  

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1 hour ago, ClarkWGriswoldIII said:

Agreed, that's why I said "I'd certainly trust TM to have done the proper testing."  It's just my nature to wait and see on materials changes and let others venture in first.  

Maybe that's why I have a 5 year old driver!

 

I’m a skeptic and while I love advances in tech TM has equally advanced their marketing strategy. 
 

Remember they just got bought in May by a South Korean private equity firm. One thing I know about M&A is that the firm always wants to show value in what they just bought…quickly. So, I’m equally skeptical about the 20+ yrs of R&D statements. Products are constantly rushed to market without full testing or with potential defects. Remember a 1% defect in 200,000 clubs is still 2000 clubs. I hope it’s a significant advancement but I also remember other club tech failures.  
 

All that being said, I can’t wait to hit one. I’m just cautiously optimistic. 

 

EDIT - Just to be clear, this is speculation and I could be 10000% wrong. I game a TM driver, not trying to go after TM. I feel that the release of this new driver is being received differently than years past, so I want to make sure that it's thoroughly reviewed and questioned.

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17 hours ago, Manavs said:

Side note. Carbon doesn't spin, so the "jelly" face is adding spin to make the carbon usable as a face material.

@Manavs Interesting.  I would love to find out more about this.  Are you saying "Steel" and "Titanium" have some surface properties that add to the spin where carbon face doesn't?  First time I've heard this.  Can you give us a pointer to a study, article, etc?

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1 minute ago, TBS said:

I’m a skeptic and while I love advances in tech TM has equally advanced their marketing strategy. 

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24 minutes ago, russtopherb said:

giphy.gif

Now I want to watch Jessica Jones...

I guess the only question I have and it has a lot of ifs added to it. If their micro grooves really have that much of an effect and benefit in aiding launch and spin then wouldn't some of these marks have some sort of effect? If they dont, then does that mean the microgrooves may not provide as much benefit as we think? Of course it could just be an aesthetic thing and we are somewhat overblowing it as well. 

I didn't get a chance to get into hit any the other day, however tomorrow is the day I do plan on finally getting into the shop. 

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25 minutes ago, pakman92 said:

@Manavs Interesting.  I would love to find out more about this.  Are you saying "Steel" and "Titanium" have some surface properties that add to the spin where carbon face doesn't?  First time I've heard this.  Can you give us a pointer to a study, article, etc?

This is directly from the TM website.  Just guessing here but suspect this film/cover to be the issue - if indeed there is a widespread issue with marring. Typically urethanes offer improved abrasion and impact resistance than the epoxy resins typically used in composite laminate.  My thought here is that the cover is more for protection of the carbon fiber face than the advertised launch and spin attributes.

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Only two shaft companies there, Graphite Design and Nippon. Both were slammed at the show being the only game in town. 

May have been the smartest move for both companies 

if interested in a recap here ya go

 

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4 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

This is directly from the TM website.  Just guessing here but suspect this film/cover to be the issue - if indeed there is a widespread issue with marring. Typically urethanes offer improved abrasion and impact resistance than the epoxy resins typically used in composite laminate.  My thought here is that the cover is more for protection of the carbon fiber face than the advertised launch and spin attributes.

image.png.80b79bdacccecd9f9fc9cf32b8bcef0d.png

Yes, I know.  I've read that and I've posted the same info a few posts above.  What I'm curious about is the claim that Carbon face lacks some spin properties that steel and titanium faces don't.  Which is different than that TM states above.  Are you saying that the cover is out of necessity (lack of certain properties in the carbon face) and not a separate and unrelated innovation?  Learning something new everyday.

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46 minutes ago, TBS said:

Remember they just got bought in May by a South Korean private equity firm. One thing I know about M&A is that the firm always wants to show value in what they just bought…quickly. So, I’m equally skeptical about the 20+ yrs of R&D statements. Products are constantly rushed to market without full testing or with potential defects. Remember a 1% defect in 200,000 clubs is still 2000 clubs. I hope it’s a significant advancement but I also remember other club tech failures.  

I can tell you that after spending time with Bridgestone and Cobra in 2015 that they are constantly working on things and that they are typically 3-5 years away from release. So no nothing is rushed to market and yes it’s feasible that TM has spent 20 years working on this especially as they state manufacturing process and capabilities have changed and improved over the years. So you can be a skeptic what you shared here isn’t true. 

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3 minutes ago, pakman92 said:

Yes, I know.  I've read that and I've posted the same info a few posts above.  What I'm curious about is the claim that Carbon face lacks some spin properties that steel and titanium faces don't.  Which is different than that TM states above.  Are you saying that the cover is out of necessity (lack of certain properties in the carbon face) and not a separate and unrelated innovation?  Learning something new everyday.

I'm just guessing the polyurethane film is more for marring protection than spin attributes.  It would seem like the raw carbon fiber face texture could be tailored (made 😆) to achieve whatever spin properties they want.  This based on my 30 years experience in aerospace... which, admittedly, is getting quite dated 😐.  

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Just now, RickyBobby_PR said:

I can tell you that after spending time with Bridgestone and Cobra in 2015 that they are constantly working on things and that they are typically 3-5 years away from release. So no nothing is rushed to market and yes it’s feasible that TM has spent 20 years working on this especially as they state manufacturing process and capabilities have changed and improved over the years. So you can be a skeptic what you shared here isn’t true. 

Absolutely fair. I'm excited to see MGS in depth review.

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7 hours ago, McGolf said:

Only two shaft companies there, Graphite Design and Nippon. Both were slammed at the show being the only game in town. 

May have been the smartest move for both companies 

if interested in a recap here ya go

 

Nice Job Jim!   Thanks for the recap and posting!   Maybe I'll see you down there next year!

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11 hours ago, chisag said:

... I have a very hard time believing a company like TM, a leader in the driver category would risk releasing a new driver that had any problems, let alone defective faces. If a small company like Tour Edge does extensive testing of their faces (along with everything else) you have to think the testing done on a new material is well beyond extensive with a company the size of TM. I am not saying the technology is any better or worse as far as performance for the average golfer but the technology has to be solid or they would not risk losing their position as a leader in driver sales when they could have just released a Sim3. 

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On 1/31/2022 at 12:46 PM, Manavs said:

I was with the person who took these photos, and have done extensive testing of gears with the stealth.  The face does not pass the fingernail test as defined by the usga.  Tees leave a mark as does your finger.  I have no idea how tm got away with this.  

Side note. Carbon doesn't spin, so the "jelly" face is adding spin to make the carbon usable as a face material.

Screenshot_20220131-154048_Adobe Acrobat.jpg

Face durability was one of my BIG concerns AFTER determining that the carbon face did NOT produce higher ball speeds and increased distance. Looking very sketchy at this point, for TM. Maybe "Stealth Titanium" will be here before we know it! 😘🤷🏻‍♂️

Edited by SMUGamer
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I know club was at the Show and was hit a bunch in a short time, but whomever it was that was claiming that over the course of a lifetime the average golfer would only hit their driver several hundred times, you are way off.  Most golfers I know, including myself, hit their driver 10 - 12 times per round (possibly more if you throw in mulligans). Playing twice a week, hitting your driver 12-13 times a round, equals 100 or so hits per month just from playing golf.  Throw in range sessions and you could easily approach 1000 hits a season. This face wear is enough to veer me away from the Stealth for now. I don't want to get half-way through the season and have my new driver face looking all beat up. I've ordered an LTDx and will be gaming that this year.  While the Stealth technology is exciting, the face wear is a major concern in my book.

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13 minutes ago, SMUGamer said:

This was one of my BIG concerns AFTER determining that the carbon face did NOT produce higher ball speeds and increased distance. Looking very sketchy at this point, for TM. Maybe "Stealth Titanium" will be here before we know it! 😘🤷🏻‍♂️

I'm old enough to remember When the bubble shaft came out, some players did not want to play the club, but TM mandated they all play a copper painted head.  I've asked industry engineers if we could see a red faced SIM2 down the road, and they flat out told me you can't pvd red onto a titanium face - so that's out.  

 

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Can you imagine the number of "hackers" that have hit that face?  After my Stealth comes I'll let you know.

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1 hour ago, SMUGamer said:

Face durability was one of my BIG concerns AFTER determining that the carbon face did NOT produce higher ball speeds and increased distance. Looking very sketchy at this point, for TM. Maybe "Stealth Titanium" will be here before we know it! 😘🤷🏻‍♂️

Sketchy based on 1 head from a demo day where who know how May swings were taking with and tossed around as it went in and out of golfers hands. That’s been a little dramatic. Especially after it’s been posted that the heads at mgs hq aren’t showing then same marks on the face. 
 

People really will find anything they can to knock products especially ones they haven’t even hit themselves to see if any of the marketing is true or not. 

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Demo'ed a Stealth plus with Ventus shaft.  It was basically new out of the plastic.

Hit it with around a 95-98 mph club head speed on a GC Quad.  Sounds great.  It sounds different compared to my TSi3, but it still sounds good.  Could find no scratches or marks from the ball or the tee.

Will be interested to hear if this damage is a real problem.

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This will sort itself out soon enough 🙂.

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5 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Sketchy based on 1 head from a demo day where who know how May swings were taking with and tossed around as it went in and out of golfers hands. That’s been a little dramatic. Especially after it’s been posted that the heads at mgs hq aren’t showing then same marks on the face. 
 

People really will find anything they can to knock products especially ones they haven’t even hit themselves to see if any of the marketing is true or not. 

Come on now, Bobby Sue! 😂

Do others NOT find it very odd that many folks that already have their Stealths have NOT jumped into this discussion telling us how they tried to scratch the face of the Stealths yet they were impenetrable? With their nails, fingernail clippers, etc, but still clean as a whistle?!?!? 🤔 Hmmmmmm......

Matter of fact, if I had one now, I'd purposely see if I could scratch the face with my nail so that I could immediately take it back within my 90 day free return/trade period versus being left holding the bag after my 90 days expired. Just like mentioned above, I'll just sit back and watch how this unfolds with others. 

Edited by SMUGamer
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7 hours ago, SMUGamer said:

Come on now, Bobby Sue! 😂

Do others NOT find it very odd that many folks that already have their Stealths have NOT jumped into this discussion telling us how they tried to scratch the face of the Stealths yet they were impenetrable? With their nails, fingernail clippers, etc, but still clean as a whistle?!?!? 🤔 Hmmmmmm......

Matter of fact, if I had one now, I'd purposely see if I could scratch the face with my nail so that I could immediately take it back within my 90 day free return/trade period versus being left holding the bag after my 90 days expired. Just like mentioned above, I'll just sit back and watch how this unfolds with others. 

First despite you using an emoji you don’t know me and you haven’t been around here long enough to call me anything other than my listed name. So this will be the one and only time I address this.

Second the drivers just started arriving thing week and since you aren’t familiar with most of the members here there’s not going to be a lot of them who preordered the driver thus limiting the number of people that would have it to even attempt to jump in with their tests.

Third there’s already been posts from a member who has talked with mgs staff and they aren’t seeing the samething as that photo, and as several have posted the demo heads at the pga show get treated like garbage, not much different than any demo club during the demo day season.

Last there are several on wrx where preording, blind buying and testing is more of a regular occurrence that have posted their pics and what they noticed about the face and none of them are seeing the samething as this one head. Nor has the person who claims to have been there posted the requested video of the fingernail test.

 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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8 hours ago, SMUGamer said:


Do others NOT find it very odd that many folks that already have their Stealths have NOT jumped into this discussion telling us how they tried to scratch the face of the Stealths yet they were impenetrable? With their nails, fingernail clippers, etc, but still clean as a whistle?!?!? 🤔 Hmmmmmm......

Not really.  Driver is just being released to the general public.  Most consumers don’t read forums and probably have no idea that people are even discussing this potential issue.  It could also be considered odd that there is only one report that I have seen of people saying that the face can be dented with a fingernail.  Why didn’t any of the other reviewers comment on this occurrence?   Time will tell.

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15*  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :titleist-small: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite
Putter:   :taylormade-small:TM-180

Testing:   SPGC_logo.jpg

Backups:  :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, :seemore-small: mFGP2, :cameron-small: Futura 5W

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

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8 hours ago, SMUGamer said:

Come on now, Bobby Sue! 😂

Stay classy.

🙄

In my  :wilson_staff_small:  carry bag:
:mizuno-small: ST-X 10.5* Kai'li Blue R Flex
:mizuno-small: ST-Z 15* Kai/li Blue R Flex
:mizuno-small: ST-Z 4h Linq Blue R Flex
:cleveland-small: Launcher 5h
:cleveland-small: Launcher CBX 6i-PW
:cleveland-small: CBX 54* & 58*
:cleveland-small: Huntington Beach #10
:bridgestone-small: e12 Contact
CURRENTLY TESTING - Mizuno Long Game

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11 hours ago, SMUGamer said:

Come on now, Bobby Sue! 😂

Do others NOT find it very odd that many folks that already have their Stealths have NOT jumped into this discussion telling us how they tried to scratch the face of the Stealths yet they were impenetrable? With their nails, fingernail clippers, etc, but still clean as a whistle?!?!? 🤔 Hmmmmmm......

Matter of fact, if I had one now, I'd purposely see if I could scratch the face with my nail so that I could immediately take it back within my 90 day free return/trade period versus being left holding the bag after my 90 days expired. Just like mentioned above, I'll just sit back and watch how this unfolds with others. 

I have had mine for a week, probably hit 500 balls with it. And huh can you imagine TM actually tested this and there is not a scratch on it. 

:taylormade-small:     Stealth 2+ 9 (Diamana PD 60 S 45") 

image.png.dee92ef6cebb2ac4a3883744fc248f12.png     Stealth 2+ 15 (Diamana PD 70 S 43")

:ping-small:          G425 19 (Raijin 2.0 85x)

:ping-small:          G425 22 (Raijin 2.0 85x)

:srixon-small:            ZX7 5-9 (KBS C Taper S)

:titleist-small:            Vokey SM9 45 10 F (KBS 610)

 :titleist-small:           Vokey SM9 49 08 F (KBS 610)

 :titleist-small:           Vokey SM9 55 08 M (KBS 610)

 :titleist-small:           Vokey SM9 59 04 T (KBS 610)

:taylormade-small:     Spider GT Splitback 34"

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"One thing Golf has taught me, is that my muscles have no memory."

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Talked to HQ, they aren’t going to do anything to intentionally mark the face until driver testing is complete.   I have been searching across the various forums (boring life and this stuff is interesting to me) and have only found one other comment about damage to the face.   the below picture was a range demo club with about 500 shots and  the person noted that there were some embedded grains of sand in the face. 
 

image.jpeg.ce95067f3408b2bbf51d6c5ee0ede6b1.jpeg

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15*  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :titleist-small: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite
Putter:   :taylormade-small:TM-180

Testing:   SPGC_logo.jpg

Backups:  :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, :seemore-small: mFGP2, :cameron-small: Futura 5W

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

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15 hours ago, SMUGamer said:

Come on now, Bobby Sue! 😂

Do others NOT find it very odd that many folks that already have their Stealths have NOT jumped into this discussion telling us how they tried to scratch the face of the Stealths yet they were impenetrable? With their nails, fingernail clippers, etc, but still clean as a whistle?!?!? 🤔 Hmmmmmm......

Matter of fact, if I had one now, I'd purposely see if I could scratch the face with my nail so that I could immediately take it back within my 90 day free return/trade period versus being left holding the bag after my 90 days expired. Just like mentioned above, I'll just sit back and watch how this unfolds with others. 

You've been admonished on antoher forum for your trolling and having nothing postive to add to discussions.

So take those and this as your final warning here, be respectul and stay on topic or you will find yourself with less place to troll. 

 

:ping-small: G430 Max 10K 

:titelist-small: TSiR1 15.0 Aldlia Ascent 60g

:titelist-small: TSR2 18.0 PX Aldila Ascent 6og

:titelist-small: TSi1 20 Aldila Ascent Shafts R

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:ping-small: S159 48S/52S/56W/60B

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For the record,  I tried to scratch the face with my fingernail yesterda with more than enough force than anhyone would find any normal reason to do so, and was unable to make any sort of mark. 

 

:ping-small: G430 Max 10K 

:titelist-small: TSiR1 15.0 Aldlia Ascent 60g

:titelist-small: TSR2 18.0 PX Aldila Ascent 6og

:titelist-small: TSi1 20 Aldila Ascent Shafts R

:titelist-small: T350 5-GW SteelFiber I80 

:titelist-small: SM10 48F/54M and58K

:ping-small: S159 48S/52S/56W/60B

:scotty-cameron-1: Select 5.5 Flowback 35" 

:titelist-small: ProV1  Play number 12

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

For the record,  I tried to scratch the face with my fingernail yesterda with more than enough force than anyone find any normal reason to do so, and was unable to make any sort of mark. 

 

This should be pinned. Thank you for your high tech test! (A little tongue in check, but a claim that needed to be addressed!)

Seems like I may have fallen victim to some TM hating trolls. From the sound of it Stealth is holding up as a solid driver that is a potentially big step forward when it comes to new tech.

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