Stealth carbon face durability?? (Post PGA show pics from Reddit)

[cnosil 26,494]

3 hours ago, Manavs said:

I was with the person who took these photos, and have done extensive testing of gears with the stealth.  The face does not pass the fingernail test as defined by the usga.  Tees leave a mark as does your finger.  I have no idea how tm got away with this.  

Side note. Carbon doesn't spin, so the "jelly" face is adding spin to make the carbon usable as a face material.

 

At this point,  we don't know how that head was treated prior to the photos.   Looks pretty beat up in ways more than just hitting balls.    Why not post a video showing that the club doesn't pass the fingernail test;  would be interesting to see.   

 

10 minutes ago, Dweed said:

He did mention that they do have issues with the fiducials coming off the face. 

Please help us with less capable golf vocab to understand the above please. Thanks

The stickers put on the face of the clubs to measure club data on GC Quad and Trackman.

[fixyurdivot 18,313]

Place me squarely in the skeptic pile to think that TM overlooked a basic conformance/design requirement such as noted above.  But if they did, this will go down as the biggest bust in golf product launch history .

[Manavs 18]

Correction - YOU don't know how the driver was treated.  I on the other hand, took my fingernail, and left a mark in the face.  It wasn't my head, now was I planning on sharing any of this info at the time I saw the head at the pga show - never mind posting it here on mgs.  I just happened to come across this thread in an email today and thought some of those who weren't there would like to hear some additional data on one person's experience from the actual show.   Take my $0.02 for what it's worth. 

 

I highly recommend everyone who sees one in person check two things - 1) try to put a mark in the face using your fingernail 2) check the seam between the crown and body for uniformity around the edges.  The stealth, and stealth plus (for the 6 heads I've personally seen), have varying degrees of uniformity.  Some places the crown is higher than the body, other times the body is higher.

[cnosil 26,494]

15 minutes ago, Manavs said:

Correction - YOU don't know how the driver was treated.  I on the other hand, took my fingernail, and left a mark in the face.  It wasn't my head, now was I planning on sharing any of this info at the time I saw the head at the pga show - never mind posting it here on mgs.  I just happened to come across this thread in an email today and thought some of those who weren't there would like to hear some additional data on one person's experience from the actual show.   Take my $0.02 for what it's worth. 

 

I highly recommend everyone who sees one in person check two things - 1) try to put a mark in the face using your fingernail 2) check the seam between the crown and body for uniformity around the edges.  The stealth, and stealth plus (for the 6 heads I've personally seen), have varying degrees of uniformity.  Some places the crown is higher than the body, other times the body is higher.

It is great that you saw and experienced this.  Why wouldn't you have posted it here?  What booth had this head at the show?  Until I see the fingernail leave a mark or someone that I know shows me a head I will have doubts.   All I have seen is a few photos of a head that looks like it has been abused.  

 

I checked some of the heads at MGS and none of them have marks;  no I didn't try to put a fingernail into the face but I will reach out to them and get them to try tomorrow.    

[Manavs 18]

18 minutes ago, cnosil said:

It is great that you saw and experienced this.  Why wouldn't you have posted it here?  What booth had this head at the show?  Until I see the fingernail leave a mark or someone that I know shows me a head I will have doubts.   All I have seen is a few photos of a head that looks like it has been abused.  

 

I checked some of the heads at MGS and none of them have marks;  no I didn't try to put a fingernail into the face but I will reach out to them and get them to try tomorrow.    

As I mentioned earlier, the graphite design booth had some heads, as did the GEARs booth.  The GEARs booth head was the one in the reddit photo.

 

Why wouldn't I post it here? or anywhere for that matter - I'm not the guy to be the messenger on this one.  I simply wanted to add some color from my observations. I don't have the patience to keep up with posts in public forums.  My friend Bill Presse posted the original pic on his fb - i'll post the link below.   This driver was treated the best as it was calibrated for use with GEARs - meaning the driver wasnt just thrown around.   Bag rattle sans headcover, plastic tees are going to be problematic.   The original Japanese Gloire reserve version has a problem with sharpie ink permanently embossing into the face that wouldnt come off even with acetone.  That doesnt seem to be the case with this one. 

 

https://www.facebook.com/bill.presse/posts/7221563874535473

 

[ClarkWGriswoldIII 88]

I've learned a lesson over the years to not immediately jump into the new thing and to let the new technology prove itself on a widespread basis before jumping in.  I'd certainly trust TM to have done the proper testing and don't question those who are buying, but my nature would guide me to wait and see on something like this.

[RickyBobby_PR 10,289]

28 minutes ago, ClarkWGriswoldIII said:

I've learned a lesson over the years to not immediately jump into the new thing and to let the new technology prove itself on a widespread basis before jumping in.  I'd certainly trust TM to have done the proper testing and don't question those who are buying, but my nature would guide me to wait and see on something like this.

It may be new release but TaylorMade has been working on this for 20 years and finalizing it over the last year. 
 

Jailbreak was a 5 year project and everyone jumped all over that. Even praised Callaway for being innovative.

they the jumped all in on the Callaway AI. 
 

Nothing coming to the market is new, it’s all being worked on over the years. 

[nike7227 13]

9 hours ago, mcoz said:

FYI, Fujikura wasn't at the show either along with  all of the Big OEMs. They were debuting new product in a new release Launch.  Not sure what high end shaft companies were there. I didn't go this year myself.

 

 

Having went to the show, I can tell you that yes new product was available to hit from Taylormade (Stealth line), Cobra (LTDx line) and Callaway (Rogue ST line). But they were located at the Graphite Design, Nippon, Flightscope, Garmin and Trackman booths...Tour Spec Golf was there with all different shafts and heads as well... Plus, the PGA section had Cubs to hit. I was actually able to hit more new product during the show  than the golf stores had in demo product at the time of the show. As a result, I'm only needing to try 1 or 2 more shafts out before pulling the trigger on a Rogue ST. 

The tees used at the show were your standard plastic tees. During the inside part of the show, the driving range was covered in them the 1st 15 yds or so onto the turf since the tees don't stay in place. 

Edited February 1 by nike7227

[Golfzilla70 10]

Just my two cents' worth:  i see markings there for sure, but that carbon face will outlast their super-thin titanium faces, over the life of the driver.  And that's primarily because they get right to the very limit on the thin face so a golfer can get that rebound.  But 90% of golfers rarely hit the driver so often that they'll see such a breakdown before they're buying a new driver anyway.

[ClarkWGriswoldIII 88]

10 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

It may be new release but TaylorMade has been working on this for 20 years and finalizing it over the last year. 
 

Jailbreak was a 5 year project and everyone jumped all over that. Even praised Callaway for being innovative.

they the jumped all in on the Callaway AI. 
 

Nothing coming to the market is new, it’s all being worked on over the years. 

Agreed, that's why I said "I'd certainly trust TM to have done the proper testing."  It's just my nature to wait and see on materials changes and let others venture in first.  

Maybe that's why I have a 5 year old driver!

 

[cnosil 26,494]

12 hours ago, Manavs said:

As I mentioned earlier, the graphite design booth had some heads, as did the GEARs booth.  The GEARs booth head was the one in the reddit photo.

 

Why wouldn't I post it here? or anywhere for that matter - I'm not the guy to be the messenger on this one.  I simply wanted to add some color from my observations. I don't have the patience to keep up with posts in public forums.  My friend Bill Presse posted the original pic on his fb - i'll post the link below.   This driver was treated the best as it was calibrated for use with GEARs - meaning the driver wasnt just thrown around.   Bag rattle sans headcover, plastic tees are going to be problematic.   The original Japanese Gloire reserve version has a problem with sharpie ink permanently embossing into the face that wouldnt come off even with acetone.  That doesnt seem to be the case with this one. 

 

https://www.facebook.com/bill.presse/posts/7221563874535473

 

Thanks for the additional link and information.   As I mentioned earlier, I have reached out to my contacts at MGS and asked them to film a test and see if they can dent the face with a fingernail.   I looked at some of the heads that are used for their most wanted testing and did not see any damage.  Not saying that this is or isn’t an issue but those photos were the first example or evidence of this problem and I would think other reviewers would be seeing the same thing.  

[TBS 741]

1 hour ago, ClarkWGriswoldIII said:

Agreed, that's why I said "I'd certainly trust TM to have done the proper testing."  It's just my nature to wait and see on materials changes and let others venture in first.  

Maybe that's why I have a 5 year old driver!

 

I’m a skeptic and while I love advances in tech TM has equally advanced their marketing strategy. 
 

Remember they just got bought in May by a South Korean private equity firm. One thing I know about M&A is that the firm always wants to show value in what they just bought…quickly. So, I’m equally skeptical about the 20+ yrs of R&D statements. Products are constantly rushed to market without full testing or with potential defects. Remember a 1% defect in 200,000 clubs is still 2000 clubs. I hope it’s a significant advancement but I also remember other club tech failures.  
 

All that being said, I can’t wait to hit one. I’m just cautiously optimistic. 

 

EDIT - Just to be clear, this is speculation and I could be 10000% wrong. I game a TM driver, not trying to go after TM. I feel that the release of this new driver is being received differently than years past, so I want to make sure that it's thoroughly reviewed and questioned.

[pakman92 470]

17 hours ago, Manavs said:

Side note. Carbon doesn't spin, so the "jelly" face is adding spin to make the carbon usable as a face material.

@Manavs Interesting.  I would love to find out more about this.  Are you saying "Steel" and "Titanium" have some surface properties that add to the spin where carbon face doesn't?  First time I've heard this.  Can you give us a pointer to a study, article, etc?

[russtopherb 9,815]

1 minute ago, TBS said:

I’m a skeptic and while I love advances in tech TM has equally advanced their marketing strategy. 

[GolfSpy_APH 8,775]

24 minutes ago, russtopherb said:

Now I want to watch Jessica Jones...

I guess the only question I have and it has a lot of ifs added to it. If their micro grooves really have that much of an effect and benefit in aiding launch and spin then wouldn't some of these marks have some sort of effect? If they dont, then does that mean the microgrooves may not provide as much benefit as we think? Of course it could just be an aesthetic thing and we are somewhat overblowing it as well. 

I didn't get a chance to get into hit any the other day, however tomorrow is the day I do plan on finally getting into the shop. 

[fixyurdivot 18,313]

25 minutes ago, pakman92 said:

@Manavs Interesting.  I would love to find out more about this.  Are you saying "Steel" and "Titanium" have some surface properties that add to the spin where carbon face doesn't?  First time I've heard this.  Can you give us a pointer to a study, article, etc?

This is directly from the TM website.  Just guessing here but suspect this film/cover to be the issue - if indeed there is a widespread issue with marring. Typically urethanes offer improved abrasion and impact resistance than the epoxy resins typically used in composite laminate.  My thought here is that the cover is more for protection of the carbon fiber face than the advertised launch and spin attributes.

[McGolf 679]

Only two shaft companies there, Graphite Design and Nippon. Both were slammed at the show being the only game in town. 

May have been the smartest move for both companies 

if interested in a recap here ya go

 

[pakman92 470]

4 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

This is directly from the TM website.  Just guessing here but suspect this film/cover to be the issue - if indeed there is a widespread issue with marring. Typically urethanes offer improved abrasion and impact resistance than the epoxy resins typically used in composite laminate.  My thought here is that the cover is more for protection of the carbon fiber face than the advertised launch and spin attributes.

Yes, I know.  I've read that and I've posted the same info a few posts above.  What I'm curious about is the claim that Carbon face lacks some spin properties that steel and titanium faces don't.  Which is different than that TM states above.  Are you saying that the cover is out of necessity (lack of certain properties in the carbon face) and not a separate and unrelated innovation?  Learning something new everyday.

[RickyBobby_PR 10,289]

46 minutes ago, TBS said:

Remember they just got bought in May by a South Korean private equity firm. One thing I know about M&A is that the firm always wants to show value in what they just bought…quickly. So, I’m equally skeptical about the 20+ yrs of R&D statements. Products are constantly rushed to market without full testing or with potential defects. Remember a 1% defect in 200,000 clubs is still 2000 clubs. I hope it’s a significant advancement but I also remember other club tech failures.  

I can tell you that after spending time with Bridgestone and Cobra in 2015 that they are constantly working on things and that they are typically 3-5 years away from release. So no nothing is rushed to market and yes it’s feasible that TM has spent 20 years working on this especially as they state manufacturing process and capabilities have changed and improved over the years. So you can be a skeptic what you shared here isn’t true. 

[fixyurdivot 18,313]

3 minutes ago, pakman92 said:

Yes, I know.  I've read that and I've posted the same info a few posts above.  What I'm curious about is the claim that Carbon face lacks some spin properties that steel and titanium faces don't.  Which is different than that TM states above.  Are you saying that the cover is out of necessity (lack of certain properties in the carbon face) and not a separate and unrelated innovation?  Learning something new everyday.

I'm just guessing the polyurethane film is more for marring protection than spin attributes.  It would seem like the raw carbon fiber face texture could be tailored (made ) to achieve whatever spin properties they want.  This based on my 30 years experience in aerospace... which, admittedly, is getting quite dated .