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The Body Is Least Responsible for Squaring The Clubface According To Athletic Motion Golf


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AMG seem to have some proof that shows it's an apparent myth about the clubface being squared by body from around P6- P7.

 

So the idea that the clubface must be square to the club path by P6 and then let the body rotate to square the clubface by impact is highly questionable.

Edited by Wildthing
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Another example that the talking heads on tv have no clue what they are taking about in the swing. One of the few that does is Duval.

Shows that they aren’t holding lag and that arms moving down and right arm is extending as the wrists lose angle this morning holding lag

also demonstrated by Monte on his recent instagram post 

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CZmkPmIpw8d/?utm_medium=copy_link

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1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Another example that the talking heads on tv have no clue what they are taking about in the swing. One of the few that does is Duval.

Shows that they aren’t holding lag and that arms moving down and right arm is extending as the wrists lose angle this morning holding lag

also demonstrated by Monte on his recent instagram post 

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CZmkPmIpw8d/?utm_medium=copy_link

Lag is the single biggest myth in golf. Mark Crossfield’s biggest pet peeve is how there are still coaches, publications and analysts that preach lag

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37 minutes ago, jlukes said:

Lag is the single biggest myth in golf. Mark Crossfield’s biggest pet peeve is how there are still coaches, publications and analysts that preach lag

Yep and so many golfers try and chase it based on some 2d images the “experts” show or go off what a pro says they feel/do. Sergio says he feels like he pulls on a chain but I’ve seen several instructors show his swing and he’s not even close to doing that and is doing the same thing Monte is showing in the video.

Just another reason I tune out most of the tv commentary when watching golf

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3 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Another example that the talking heads on tv have no clue what they are taking about in the swing. One of the few that does is Duval.

Shows that they aren’t holding lag and that arms moving down and right arm is extending as the wrists lose angle this morning holding lag

also demonstrated by Monte on his recent instagram post 

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CZmkPmIpw8d/?utm_medium=copy_link

I'm confused about your post as this thread isn't about lag.

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9 hours ago, Wildthing said:

I'm confused about your post as this thread isn't about lag.

It was an additional comment because if you listen to the video they talk about the wrist angle losing set. So while it addresses the body not squaring the club it also demonstrates that they don’t hold lag. Trail elbow is extending and wrists are uncocking. Therefore I’m pointing out it’s another examplE about the myth of holding lag

Its a good video that shows a lot about how the swing works from setup to impact and not just that the body isn’t what squares the club face but how the chest, hips, arms and wrists work together in the swing.

It’s also a good video demonstrating that there isn’t one way to swing and that what one type of swing does will need to be different from what a different swing does. A DJ swing vs a Rory swing vs a JT swing vs a Rickie Fowler vs a Matt Wolff. All of them have different swings and use the the chest, hips, wrists and arms differently 

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On 2/6/2022 at 1:17 PM, RickyBobby_PR said:

It was an additional comment because if you listen to the video they talk about the wrist angle losing set. So while it addresses the body not squaring the club it also demonstrates that they don’t hold lag. Trail elbow is extending and wrists are uncocking. Therefore I’m pointing out it’s another examplE about the myth of holding lag

Its a good video that shows a lot about how the swing works from setup to impact and not just that the body isn’t what squares the club face but how the chest, hips, arms and wrists work together in the swing.

It’s also a good video demonstrating that there isn’t one way to swing and that what one type of swing does will need to be different from what a different swing does. A DJ swing vs a Rory swing vs a JT swing vs a Rickie Fowler vs a Matt Wolff. All of them have different swings and use the the chest, hips, wrists and arms differently 

I don't think many tour pros hold lots of lag by the time they get to club horizontal (P6) in the downswing , but I suspect they have quite a significant amount by P5.5 (see frame image below of club position)  when the 'In Plane MOF'  (black line) takes over the angular acceleration of the club (ie. one may call this the point of 'Release').  I also think that they are losing lag by a very small amount from top of the backswing P4  to P5.5 but they are definitely not casting from the top . However, they might feel as if they are releasing from the top but they aren't actually losing any significant lag angle.

image.png.60f221be5bd1bcab064e5bf5bd814514.png

Edited by Wildthing
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38 minutes ago, Wildthing said:

I don't think many tour pros hold lots of lag by the time they get to club horizontal (P6) in the downswing , but I suspect they have quite a significant amount by P5.5 (see frame image below of club position)  when the 'In Plane MOF'  (black line) takes over the angular acceleration of the club (ie. one may call this the point of 'Release').  I also think that they are losing lag by a very small amount from top of the backswing P4  to P5.5 but they are definitely not casting from the top . However, they might feel as if they are releasing from the top but they aren't actually losing any significant lag angle.

image.png.60f221be5bd1bcab064e5bf5bd814514.png

The video on this thread shows them releasing their wrist set starting at p4 into 5 and almost 1/2 by p6. The trail arm is starting to unfold and the wrist is moving from whatever their maxed into incoming and adding some amount of bow. What I said about the concept of holding lag is exactly that, none are holding or increasing lag they are doing the opposite, yet we see amateurs and talking heads in golf broadcasts talking about holding lag or increasing it on the downswing. Which isn’t what happens.

so yes per the chart, the video in this thread and others I’ve posted in the lpga thread all show what I’ve been saying for about two weeks that speed doesn’t come from the men holding lag and the women not being strong enough to do that, or that holding lag in general doesn’t happen and amateurs need to let that concept  go

 

 

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That was a good video. As it comes to holding lag. I would personally think it would require the most nimble; strongest of strongest golfers alive. No way one can hold off the forces of releasing at club at 100 plus miles an hour 

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1 hour ago, Goober said:

That was a good video. As it comes to holding lag. I would personally think it would require the most nimble; strongest of strongest golfers alive. No way one can hold off the forces of releasing at club at 100 plus miles an hour 

Nobody is trying to hold lag except the amateurs who listen to the quacks on tv who push that thought despite it being debunked for years especially as 3d came into the picture. The video in the Instagram link I posted shows exactly how the wrists move and at no time is there an attempt to hold lag. 

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1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Nobody is trying to hold lag except the amateurs who listen to the quacks on tv who push that thought despite it being debunked for years especially as 3d came into the picture. The video in the Instagram link I posted shows exactly how the wrists move and at no time is there an attempt to hold lag. 

Seems so futile. And I think it would lose speed and accuracy. 

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9 hours ago, Goober said:

Seems so futile. And I think it would lose speed and accuracy. 

Monte is a long drive champion and at his current age still reaches 120mph swing speed and is the same movement that is described in the amg video and every other video that amg and many other instructors cover.

It’s the way the golf club shallows. 

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2 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Monte is a long drive champion and at his current age still reaches 120mph swing speed and is the same movement that is described in the amg video and every other video that amg and many other instructors cover.

It’s the way the golf club shallows. 

I know guys who are extremely steep. That can flat out annihilate a golf ball. So this steep vs shallow stuff is kinda mush to me. But I’m sure Montez and the guys I know who do so well in our state and local events have perfect impact 

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37 minutes ago, Goober said:

I know guys who are extremely steep. That can flat out annihilate a golf ball. So this steep vs shallow stuff is kinda mush to me. But I’m sure Montez and the guys I know who do so well in our state and local events have perfect impact 

There’s lots of ways to skin a cat and the golf swing is about matchups. Gary Woodland and Brooks are steep and have to compensate with some different side bends and hip stalling then some club manipulation to get to impact and post impact to hit the shot shape they want. Even rory has some stalling in the swing. Then there’s Rickie who is laid off and goes some what steep in transitions because it’s hard to go from how laid off he is to a shallower shaft. They all have above average speed.

What the AMG video (even though the focus was on what happens at p6 to impact) and Monte are demonstrating is what has been referred to for many years as dropping into the a lot or the magic move.

Monte posted recently on Instagram that he still fights the pulling of the shaft which is what causes steepness. Trying to hold lag will cause the steepness and over the top. While being steep isn’t the end of the world it’s not the most efficient/effective way and the concept of holding lag is a debunked one that nobody that is good is doing and something too many amateurs think is how swing speed is gained. 
 

Here’s Poulter on the range watch his wrist at the top and his arms. He’s not getting super shallow which is what most ams think needs to happen when in reality the shaft just needs to shallow a little from where it is at the top.
 

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CZejvpWps9e/?utm_medium=copy_link

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I really like the AMG guys.  I think they do an awesome job trying to debunk some of the myths and explain what is a very complicated set of data in a meaningful and digestible way.  I wish they did or were able to share some of the names of the players they use, but they do a good job explaining the "type" of swing the player has (or in this case is labeled as having).  

Personally I know everytime I'm at the range (and am feeling dumb) and I "try" to hold my lag I hit a terrible shot.  haha  Helps me to remember that those old adages are out of date.  Just like when we finally learned about all the ball flight laws with trackman that took a while for the talking heads to wrap their head around too.  

 

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1 hour ago, GolfSpy_BOS said:

I really like the AMG guys.  I think they do an awesome job trying to debunk some of the myths and explain what is a very complicated set of data in a meaningful and digestible way.  I wish they did or were able to share some of the names of the players they use, but they do a good job explaining the "type" of swing the player has (or in this case is labeled as having).  

Personally I know everytime I'm at the range (and am feeling dumb) and I "try" to hold my lag I hit a terrible shot.  haha  Helps me to remember that those old adages are out of date.  Just like when we finally learned about all the ball flight laws with trackman that took a while for the talking heads to wrap their head around too.  

 

I wish they would share the names too. Even when they drop hints with the players wins or stats I’m like man I’m not digging thru wiki it pga tour website just tell me.

What I like about their content is it’s a mix of instruction, technical aspects of the swing especially the pros vs ams and then some quick hit content for a drill or two if you have problem x.

 

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Sasho Mackenzie was on the Fit for Golf podcast and went into great detail and provided links to an actual study of hundreds of golfers about the wrist hinge being the biggest contributor to swing speed and a large correlation between wrist angle halfway down in the swing (between P5 and P6) and clubhead as well as ball speed. "Holding" lag may not be the ideal concept, but releasing your wrist hinge early in the downswing and around transition significantly limits your clubhead speed at impact. "Holding lag" likely came around as a concept because it is far more common for amatuer golfers to flip or throw the club from the top and lose lag compared to those who manage to hit the balls with excess "lag" and somehow hold the golf club off from releasing. Feeling the opposite is a common approach to fixes in golf. 

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Here is the link to to 'Fit For Golf' podcast.

Episode #28 - Dr Sasho MacKenzie - Wrist angles & club head speed | Listen Notes

Casting - bad

Actively Holding Lag- bad

Too much lag maybe by increasing your hand speed - bad because you won't have time to release those angles by impact.

It has to match up with the capability of the golfers unique biomechanics to create and release lag optimally to generate the best clubhead speed.

 

Edited by Wildthing
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Going back to that AMG video , I think its important to confirm the point in  DJ's downswing where they measure how open his clubface was to the club path . 

Check these 2  images below from some videos I saw on you-tube.  I superimposed some of the clubhead positions from the top of the backing to about 1 feet into the downswing, then drew a yellow line to approximate the clubface sweet spot path.  The red arrows are what I perceive to be the normal to the clubface  as best I can using these 2D images.

If AMG measured the angle between the red and yellow lines at the top of the backswing it would be the clubhead position on the furthest left .  You can see that it's almost 90  degrees and approximately correlates with their measurement of 88 degrees. I suspect some viewers of that AMG video (even myself) assumed that the bowing of DJ's wrist didn't close the clubface relative to the clubhead path but that was a only for the 1st foot of the downswing.  If you look at the furthest right clubhead image, the red arrow normal to clubface hasn't changed its orientation that much in space but look how the yellow clubhead path has changed. That change in clubhead path has caused the angle between the red arrow and yellow path line to reduce significantly. Therefore I think AMG should have recorded another measurement about 15 inches into the downswing to show how a change in clubhead path caused the clubface to close relative to the path (not any grip roll in the fingers to change the orientation of the clubface).

I know this is not an accurate analysis using 2D images compared to 3D (because of parallax) but its only for about 1 foot in the downswing.

 

image.png.e611096dc024bab11c98ea468386107b.png

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Here are some more images that show the sweet spot path (red line) in the backswing , while the green line is the downswing for about 1 foot.

 

image.png.b3fdf9e5d84e3fad7d4b727834ed49e6.png

 

I've enlarged a section of the green line image below:

 

image.png.a8fadc5b2f9249816fc7735fa050b60d.png

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