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The Body Is Least Responsible for Squaring The Clubface According To Athletic Motion Golf


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AMG also posted a video linking lag and club head speed to how quickly the player accelerates from the top. Basically, the longer the hitter the sooner his hands reach maximum speed in the downswing. In other words, there is no passive dropping of the club into the slot. It is a hard and fast move. 

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16 minutes ago, Hook DeLoft said:

AMG also posted a video linking lag and club head speed to how quickly the player accelerates from the top. Basically, the longer the hitter the sooner his hands reach maximum speed in the downswing. In other words, there is no passive dropping of the club into the slot. It is a hard and fast move. 

I believe I posted that video in the thread about lpga hip speed or whatever that thread title was.

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7 hours ago, Wildthing said:

Here are some more images that show the sweet spot path (red line) in the backswing , while the green line is the downswing for about 1 foot.

 

image.png.b3fdf9e5d84e3fad7d4b727834ed49e6.png

 

I've enlarged a section of the green line image below:

 

image.png.a8fadc5b2f9249816fc7735fa050b60d.png

So with that closed of a face at the top. DJ, has to rotate his body open like crazy In the transition. Which will give him an open face feeling. Being that closed would be a disaster for people who have little body rotation. Some may never be able to emulate that in a million years 

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1 hour ago, Goober said:

So with that closed of a face at the top. DJ, has to rotate his body open like crazy In the transition. Which will give him an open face feeling. Being that closed would be a disaster for people who have little body rotation. Some may never be able to emulate that in a million years 

Exactly why mimicking a pros swing isn’t a great idea. Unless you move exactly like that pro you can’t do what they do. Dj holds the club off a bit with driver and has some manipulation in his body to hit the ball. 

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15 hours ago, Goober said:

So with that closed of a face at the top. DJ, has to rotate his body open like crazy In the transition. Which will give him an open face feeling. Being that closed would be a disaster for people who have little body rotation. Some may never be able to emulate that in a million years 

Not really because a bowed wrist like DJ when he unhinges his left wrist (ie. ulnar deviation) angulates the shaft back so that he has forward shaft lean approaching impact (which will deloft the clubface). But because he also has a strong grip , the club path will also tend to approach the ball too much from an inside path .  Therefore to counteract that problem (because he wants to fade the ball) and change the club path,  he supinates his lead forearm a little more than a golfer who would have a weaker grip (with a bowed wrist).

Hope that makes sense but to get an idea of what is happening, do the following:

Take a strong grip with the clubface square to the ball at address , then just bow your lead wrist like DJ and see what happens to the club . That will replicate (approximately) what would tend to happen in the downswing closer to impact where obviously your body parts will be differently orientated, but the arm and club unit would be in approximately similar positions.  You should see the club shaft in forward lean and the clubface approaching from a severe inside path . If you were DJ wishing to fade the ball , you would have to correct that inside path , so just supinate your lead forearm a bit and see what happens to the club path (it alters the club path to approach the club from a less inside path).

Basically, approaching impact with a bowed lead wrist coupled with a strong grip will deloft the clubface and create a more inside to out path. 

Edited by Wildthing
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Another angle for DJ showing the clubface vs club path for a few inches into the downswing.  These images seem to contradict AMG measurements of 88 degrees open to club path and looks like the clubface is more closed to the club path , so something doesn't make sense . 

I asked Jon Sinclair whether his TPI database shows the same measurements as AMG/Gears and he confirms they are correct . This must mean the clubface must be almost normal to the swing path for a very small distance , maybe not even noticeable in these 2D video images.

PS.  Just got an email from Jon Sinclair and he looked at the you-tube video for the below image and said the following:

"When you look at the video you sent you can see Dustin’s driver head move laterally behind him which would put the face very close to 90 degrees to that path."

This means that AMG were correct to say that DJ's clubface was 88 degrees open to the path at the top of of his backswing but it was only for a few inches and only for an instant. Then it became closed to the path by about ~45  degrees .

image.png.e7b2ed2f9be105b79170eac18865a36c.png

Edited by Wildthing
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On 2/12/2022 at 6:55 AM, Wildthing said:

Not really because a bowed wrist like DJ when he unhinges his left wrist (ie. ulnar deviation) angulates the shaft back so that he has forward shaft lean approaching impact (which will deloft the clubface). But because he also has a strong grip , the club path will also tend to approach the ball too much from an inside path .  Therefore to counteract that problem (because he wants to fade the ball) and change the club path,  he supinates his lead forearm a little more than a golfer who would have a weaker grip (with a bowed wrist).

Hope that makes sense but to get an idea of what is happening, do the following:

Take a strong grip with the clubface square to the ball at address , then just bow your lead wrist like DJ and see what happens to the club . That will replicate (approximately) what would tend to happen in the downswing closer to impact where obviously your body parts will be differently orientated, but the arm and club unit would be in approximately similar positions.  You should see the club shaft in forward lean and the clubface approaching from a severe inside path . If you were DJ wishing to fade the ball , you would have to correct that inside path , so just supinate your lead forearm a bit and see what happens to the club path (it alters the club path to approach the club from a less inside path).

Basically, approaching impact with a bowed lead wrist coupled with a strong grip will deloft the clubface and create a more inside to out path. 

I have to really try this when all the snow melts. So basically he is pressuring the shaft with a closed counter winding pressure the entire swing? His positions in slow motion are text book. Maybe the best I’ve ever saw of any tour play past or present. But for the common folk like me. I would honestly be afraid of hooking it off the planet.

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18 hours ago, Goober said:

I have to really try this when all the snow melts. So basically he is pressuring the shaft with a closed counter winding pressure the entire swing? His positions in slow motion are text book. Maybe the best I’ve ever saw of any tour play past or present. But for the common folk like me. I would honestly be afraid of hooking it off the planet.

I would too but I can't really bow my wrist so keep it either flat or neutral.  If I tried to bow my lead wrist , I'd tend to do something called circumduction  (ie. a mix of flexion and ulnar deviation that rotates the wrist counterclockwise) which would close the clubface way too much and probably cause an early release too .  Completely unnatural for me and could cause injury to my weak wrists, especially at impact.

Edited by Wildthing
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On 2/14/2022 at 8:51 AM, Wildthing said:

I would too but I can't really bow my wrist so keep it either flat or neutral.  If I tried to bow my lead wrist , I'd tend to do something called circumduction  (ie. a mix of flexion and ulnar deviation that rotates the wrist counterclockwise) which would close the clubface way too much and probably cause an early release too .  Completely unnatural for me and could cause injury to my weak wrists, especially at impact.

I would be worried about people emulating this who are over the top steep golfers. With an in grained move like that. The excessive closed face would be a disaster. But again .. I wonder if the body would adapt and produce a nice inside out swing with a draw over time? Knowing it has to make these compensations to keep it in play 

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40 minutes ago, Goober said:

I would be worried about people emulating this who are over the top steep golfers. With an in grained move like that. The excessive closed face would be a disaster. But again .. I wonder if the body would adapt and produce a nice inside out swing with a draw over time? Knowing it has to make these compensations to keep it in play 

The body is going to react to where the club face is on every swing. It’s why we all have some sort of compensation in our swings. Some less than others who have more face control throughout the swing. Even DJs swing has body compensations for his swing. He’s just spent way more time than most amateurs working on his swing. People would be surprised how many of the best don’t have perfect swings. Even Adam Scott who everyone considers the perfect swing actually moves away from the ball in his backswing because of where his balance points are and has some slight stall to compensate for clubface positioning

So if someone was going to put on the time to try DJs motion eventually they will develop movement to hit the ball in the direction they want. Will it be optimal? Doubt it. 

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4 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

The body is going to react to where the club face is on every swing. It’s why we all have some sort of compensation in our swings. Some less than others who have more face control throughout the swing. Even DJs swing has body compensations for his swing. He’s just spent way more time than most amateurs working on his swing. People would be surprised how many of the best don’t have perfect swings. Even Adam Scott who everyone considers the perfect swing actually moves away from the ball in his backswing because of where his balance points are and has some slight stall to compensate for clubface positioning

So if someone was going to put on the time to try DJs motion eventually they will develop movement to hit the ball in the direction they want. Will it be optimal? Doubt it. 

People can really go over the deep end with this stuff. If not careful. There is a reason why people cast and early extend. For many that is the only way they can advance the ball. Adding in this other stuff without fixing the root problems could be disastrous. I wonder how many have permanently ruined their golf games from overdoing some of this readily available info ?  Or how many have gone so far of even quitting this great game because of it 

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8 hours ago, Goober said:

People can really go over the deep end with this stuff. If not careful. There is a reason why people cast and early extend. For many that is the only way they can advance the ball. Adding in this other stuff without fixing the root problems could be disastrous. I wonder how many have permanently ruined their golf games from overdoing some of this readily available info ?  Or how many have gone so far of even quitting this great game because of it 

What people do in the transition and downswing are compensations for the clubhead being out of position in the backswing. It could be as early as by club parallel they are out of position. Lack of hip depth and rotation will cause issues that have to be compensated for like dumping the right shoulder. So many including myself at times try to implement swing changes at full speed and that’s not going to be successful. We also have bad practice routines and are focused on the shot result rather than the movement.

My guess is there’s not that many people who look at tv and say I’m going to try DJs swing or Furyks, or even Wolff’s. If they do they don’t stay with it long because of what I mentioned about result oriented vice movement.

Pros thing swing changes in terms of years just look at Justin rose who recently said he’s been working on his current swing for 11 years. Monte posted last year on wrx about how amateurs think about swing changes and it’s nowhere near the way pros do and high handicaps are typically looking at it from swing to swing.

I see lots of the same people at the driving range I’ve been going to for the last 10+ year and most of them have the swings as 10 years ago. There probably 5-6 people who actually work on their swing to get better. Everyone else is just beating balls

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I am guilty of not getting a result in a few swings or a few rounds and on to the next tip. I might be wrong. But, isn't the golf swing mostly, a full coil, back to the target, body driven turn and a swing from the ground up on the follow through? I know it should work. But, never give it time. I think one reason is if you play 8 months out of the year and maybe 1-2 times per month, you don't want the season spent on something that should work and playing even worse than our band aid swing. 

Edited by NC Golfer
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1 hour ago, NC Golfer said:

I am guilty of not getting a result in a few swings or a few rounds and on to the next tip. I might be wrong. But, isn't the golf swing mostly, a full coil, back to the target, body driven turn and a swing from the ground up on the follow through? I know it should work. But, never give it time. I think one reason is if you play 8 months out of the year and maybe 1-2 times per month, you don't want the season spent on something that should work and playing even worse than our band aid swing. 

The turn is relative to the swing length. The shoulders and hips turn in relation to each other. 90* shoulder turn is usually 45* hip turn. All body parts must be used in proper sequence. What that sequence is varies on instruction approach. Pete Cowen has the coil you refer to like going up a spiral staircase. There’s the pivot driven swing like Mike Adams refers to. There’s those who are mostly center pivot driven swing where the body doesn’t move off the ball and pressure shifts from the upper body turned over the trail leg.

What works for one person doesn’t mean it will work for someone else. A persons flexibility/mobility is going to determine what they can or can’t do. Then working on swing mechanics that work best for that golfer. Tony Finau and John Rahm are good examples of two different body types that both show a swing that gets club parallel to the ground at the top of the swing isn’t necessary to hit the ball with a lot of speed. GG talks about no need to get the club past 10 o’clock if one doesn’t have the flexibility and iirc from his course the stock swing he teaches that position is where the swing ends for a large majority of golfer.

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Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

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As we know, there is no shortage of wingnuts posting on YouTube, etc. Some of the golf videos I've seen are just laughable examples of people trying to monetize their social media presence. I don't have a problem with making money. I wish them luck.

But, you clearly have to be at a certain knowledge level yourself before you can decide who to listen to and who to ignore.

I love the AMG guys. They don't peddle opinions, or old myths, they've got some actual facts.

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2 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

The turn is relative to the swing length. The shoulders and hips turn in relation to each other. 90* shoulder turn is usually 45* hip turn. All body parts must be used in proper sequence. What that sequence is varies on instruction approach. Pete Cowen has the coil you refer to like going up a spiral staircase. There’s the pivot driven swing like Mike Adams refers to. There’s those who are mostly center pivot driven swing where the body doesn’t move off the ball and pressure shifts from the upper body turned over the trail leg.

What works for one person doesn’t mean it will work for someone else. A persons flexibility/mobility is going to determine what they can or can’t do. Then working on swing mechanics that work best for that golfer. Tony Finau and John Rahm are good examples of two different body types that both show a swing that gets club parallel to the ground at the top of the swing isn’t necessary to hit the ball with a lot of speed. GG talks about no need to get the club past 10 o’clock if one doesn’t have the flexibility and iirc from his course the stock swing he teaches that position is where the swing ends for a large majority of golfer.

Bingo. Maybe that is why I’ve been able to break 80 most of my rounds and hardly play (wish I could play more :() . I was taught at a very early age clubface control. Especially at impact. My swing may look horrendous if I ever filmed it ( only saw it once in the early 1990’s). But I can honestly say Ricky… at hip high transition and into the follow thru I feel very little flipping or snapping. This is when im really on. When I lose that feeling is when things go a little haywire at times. And I go back to my basic drills I was taught as a youth back in the mid 1980’s. 
 

and as s side note. I really like Monte and his videos. He truly focuses more on our amateur games and spends less time analyzing what the top players in the world do. Hard to compare a handicap golfer to DJ’s ability and work ethic . It isn’t even a fair comparison 

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Just thought I'd add a few graphs from Jon Sinclairs database. This shows how the wrists move for  65 worlds best 'Tour Pros' and are obviously being used to help  align the clubface  and path  (it's not just the body). Complicated stuff!

image.png.bc204be7f28cd18af49b7459e9660fa4.png

 

 

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34 minutes ago, Wildthing said:

Just thought I'd add a few graphs from Jon Sinclairs database. This shows how the wrists move for  65 worlds best 'Tour Pros' and are obviously being used to help  align the clubface  and path  (it's not just the body). Complicated stuff!

image.png.bc204be7f28cd18af49b7459e9660fa4.png

 

 

Everting has to move in sequence and working together. As Monte says about the cast a move in the no turn cast. Straightening of the trail arm along with bowing and releasing the wrist set with nobody rotation is what everyone thinks of as casting the club and is bad. That movement combined with body rotation and you have a good swing pattern.

All of this is above what most golfers need unless they are trying to learn the way the swing works and/or to help improve their coaching skills.

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I once had two players come in for a fitting and both had the same swing speed with their 6 iron but player A hit it 180 and player B hit it 160. The only difference was that player A delivered a loaded, leaning shaft to the ball and player B's shaft had already released prior to impact and instead of delivering energy he had dissipated it. So the actual clubhead speed had very little to do with achieving max distance. The only way for a shaft to remain loaded and the wrists uncocking closer to the ball is by continued body rotation. Once rotation slows or stops, or if the arms move faster than the body, the wrists WILL release. It's simple physics, nothing can stop this from happening. At some point in the through swing the hips will stop rotating once the left knee straightens. There is a finite amount of hip rotation possible in the golf swing, it's limited by both of your feet on the ground. Ultimately, as the right foot comes of the ground and the right knee touches the left knee the hips will turn a bit farther. Then the rest of the body will continue to turn until it can't anymore. Almost all tour players, with very few exceptions, will finish with their chest facing left of the target(for right handed golfers). Most amateur's chests finish right of the target, one of the key differences in the swings. Sequencing the body and arms properly is the key to a fluid powerful swing. Just look at Cameron Champ. Does he look like he's swinging forcefully? No, but he creates a lot of speed because his sequencing is virtually perfect. Look at this video at 1:31 and see how his hands are at the ball before he begins releasing his wrist cock. And the shaft is still leaning slightly at and just beyond impact. Left leg is straight and hips have finally stopped rotating. You can't argue with video.

 

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On 2/16/2022 at 6:20 AM, RickyBobby_PR said:

I see lots of the same people at the driving range I’ve been going to for the last 10+ year and most of them have the swings as 10 years ago. There probably 5-6 people who actually work on their swing to get better. Everyone else is just beating balls

Oh how true.  I spent 6 years rebuilding my swing to what it was in my early 20s, with a very good instructor. Never once went back to old moves that were compensations.  While working the instructor, and also working on his swing  changes with him, so many  others on the range would amble by and ask for the swing tip of the day, hit 10 balls and go to the first tee    Once rebuilt, the old motions were gone forever.

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