I am looking for some advice on a new driver.

[9849842]

I don't live in a place where a proper club fitting is available, I just have to order online and hope it works.

My typical driver numbers are:

- 110 mph club speed,

- +2 attack angle

- +2 club path with 0 club angle (try to hit a little draw)

- launch angle of 7

- spin around 1900

The ball only carries around 230 or 240 and rolls out to 280. Not very ideal. I am hitting an M3 9.5 loft with a tensei blue stiff shaft which I don't like at all - it feels too heavy for me.

I was looking at buying the new tour edge e722 but wasn't sure what loft / shaft I should get. The tensei red I think helps get the launch angle higher, but only comes in stiff. The ventus blue is lower launch but then I can get x-stiff. Any advice? Or any other drivers out there that would be better? I'm a 4 handicap so decent striker but I still have plenty of off-center hits, so I want something forgiving and not focused on low-spin (I think I actually need higher spin).

Edited March 5, 2022 by 9849842

[RickyBobby_PR]

Your guess is going to be as good as anyones on here. You need more loft and more spin. 7* of launch is bad and 1900 spin isn’t real playable on the course with that launch angle. What’s your peak height and descent angle.

Shaft choice is going to be whatever feels good to you. It could be X in one shaft or S in another. The shaft has two roles, weight and feel. Driver head probably something with 10.5* loft and something that is designed for spin and launch like tsi2, stealth, g425 max

You also need to use some foot spray or impact tape to see where you are contacting it on the face. Length could be off for you as well

[9849842]

Peak height is around 80-90 feet. Descent angle low 30s. These numbers reflect a middle of the club face hit. I'm neither high nor low on the face according to trackman's impact location and confirmed with some tape.

[MmmmmmBuddy]

3 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Your guess is going to be as good as anyones on here. You need more loft and more spin. 7* of launch is bad and 1900 spin isn’t real playable on the course with that launch angle. What’s your peak height and descent angle.

Shaft choice is going to be whatever feels good to you. It could be X in one shaft or S in another. The shaft has two roles, weight and feel. Driver head probably something with 10.5* loft and something that is designed for spin and launch like tsi2, stealth, g425 max

You also need to use some foot spray or impact tape to see where you are contacting it on the face. Length could be off for you as well

This.  

 

You need to try and get the launch up while maintaining that low spin number. The easiest way to raise the launch angle is more loft. Try a 10.5° and even a 12°.  You should be able to locate a fairly inexpensive higher lofted TM driver and plug your shaft in and get a good idea.  If you are swinging at 110, you should be carrying it at least 260, if not longer, especially with that spin #.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/165366271798?hash=item2680990f36:g:SwoAAOSwketiITAg  Here is a 12° for 150...

Good luck!

[RickyBobby_PR]

25 minutes ago, 9849842 said:

Peak height is around 80-90 feet. Descent angle low 30s. These numbers reflect a middle of the club face hit. I'm neither high nor low on the face according to trackman's impact location and confirmed with some tape.

You aren’t presenting enough lofts at impact. A center face strike with a +2 aoa should be giving you double digit launch. You need to look at your ball position and what your face is doing at impact. Your descent angle should be in the mid 40s. 
 

Without a fitting only way you will find a driver and shaft that works for you is to find a golf store or range where you can test drivers. 
 

Here’s a chart with optimal numbers 

 

[9849842]

I'm not looking to change my swing. I bow my wrist on purpose to keep the face closed with a slow closure rate. 

Adding loft is one option. I am wondering if there are shafts that also help me deliver more loft? Like low / high kick point or something?

[RickyBobby_PR]

30 minutes ago, 9849842 said:

I'm not looking to change my swing. I bow my wrist on purpose to keep the face closed with a slow closure rate. 

Adding loft is one option. I am wondering if there are shafts that also help me deliver more loft? Like low / high kick point or something?

Shafts don’t launch or spin. Shafts are for weight and feel. The weight and feel can influence in a good or bad way how a person swings and how that influences delivery of the club and contact point. If you want more knowledge/info on shafts search wishon shaft myths and read that article also search shafts - when to change and when to tweak loft and driver spin - angle of attach. These two posts and the article will answer a lot of your questions about shafts and heads.

 

[9849842]

38 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Shafts don’t launch or spin. Shafts are for weight and feel. The weight and feel can influence in a good or bad way how a person swings and how that influences delivery of the club and contact point. If you want more knowledge/info on shafts search wishon shaft myths and read that article also search shafts - when to change and when to tweak loft and driver spin - angle of attach. These two posts and the article will answer a lot of your questions about shafts and heads.

 

Shaft Myth #4 – The shaft is a key element for the amount of backspin imparted on a shot

That can be true. . . but only if you are a golfer who unhinges your wrist-**** angle late in the downswing and you have a clubhead speed north of 100 mph with the driver. 

So this is saying shaft is the key element for me... it sounds like I need a very soft tip to help increase delivered loft.

Edited March 5, 2022 by 9849842

[Tyler86]

5 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

You aren’t presenting enough lofts at impact. A center face strike with a +2 aoa should be giving you double digit launch. You need to look at your ball position and what your face is doing at impact. Your descent angle should be in the mid 40s.

This was my thought too. Its all so close to being great. It doesnt make sense. 
 

@9849842 global golf Utry may be an option? 

[RickyBobby_PR]

56 minutes ago, 9849842 said:

Shaft Myth #4 – The shaft is a key element for the amount of backspin imparted on a shot

That can be true. . . but only if you are a golfer who unhinges your wrist-**** angle late in the downswing and you have a clubhead speed north of 100 mph with the driver. 

So this is saying shaft is the key element for me... it sounds like I need a very soft tip to help increase delivered loft.

It could be as could be combining that with more loft. Also trying to determine how soft a tip will be hard to figure out without a fitting or doing your own testing. 

[pakman92]

2 hours ago, 9849842 said:

I'm not looking to change my swing. I bow my wrist on purpose to keep the face closed with a slow closure rate. 

Adding loft is one option. I am wondering if there are shafts that also help me deliver more loft? Like low / high kick point or something?

I hear you on the not looking to change your swing.  If I was so fortunate as to have your speed, I would loft up.  Get a 10.5 and you'll have option to go up or down to suit your need if your swing changes.   Driver loft will have much more of a direct impact on launch angle than any shaft.  

Adding loft will add spin for sure but your spin is so low already anyway.  Picking a low kickpoint (high launch) shaft 'may' launch the higher, but will also add spin.  Good luck.

[9849842]

OK thanks everyone sounds like playing with the loft is an easy answer and most drivers are adjustable loft anyways. 

[Firebird]

The M3 is adjustable so have you tried adding loft. That might be a good place to start. Do you like the feel at impact of the M3, if you do then I would look a picking a different shaft as suggested. 
 

I hit many drivers including TM before I bought the Epic Flash. It felt completely different to the TM, Titleist, Ping and Mizuno. The Cobra was the only one that came close.

Lastly do you have a local golf shop that allowed you to try clubs. They may not do fitting but at least you can see how they feel.

 

[9849842]

On 3/6/2022 at 8:20 PM, Firebird said:

The M3 is adjustable so have you tried adding loft. That might be a good place to start. Do you like the feel at impact of the M3, if you do then I would look a picking a different shaft as suggested. 
 

I hit many drivers including TM before I bought the Epic Flash. It felt completely different to the TM, Titleist, Ping and Mizuno. The Cobra was the only one that came close.

Lastly do you have a local golf shop that allowed you to try clubs. They may not do fitting but at least you can see how they feel.

 

Ok so I've tried the M3 witht he loft increased to 11.5 and it definitely helps the launch angle. Unfortunately it also closes the club face by 4 degrees so everything goes left now.

No unfortunately no local shop... that's why I am trying to figure it out by asking on this forum.

Does anyone know if the Tour Edge E722 face angle changes when you adjust the loft on the hosel (like the M3)?

EDIT: ok so just read about how the loft adjustments ACTUALLY works and now I have no idea. 

Edited March 8, 2022 by 9849842

[cnosil]

22 hours ago, 9849842 said:

Ok so I've tried the M3 witht he loft increased to 11.5 and it definitely helps the launch angle. Unfortunately it also closes the club face by 4 degrees so everything goes left now.

Closing the face is kind of how it works when using the adapters.  With no swing change, you options  are basically trying a physically higher lofted head or getting a soft tipped low bend point shaft that might help launch the ball little higher.   basically you are in experimentation mode and have to try combinations of things to see what will work.   As a player you will react to the components so what works for one person might not work for you.  

[Firebird]

19 hours ago, 9849842 said:

Ok so I've tried the M3 witht he loft increased to 11.5 and it definitely helps the launch angle. Unfortunately it also closes the club face by 4 degrees so everything goes left now.

No unfortunately no local shop... that's why I am trying to figure it out by asking on this forum.

Does anyone know if the Tour Edge E722 face angle changes when you adjust the loft on the hosel (like the M3)?

EDIT: ok so just read about how the loft adjustments ACTUALLY works and now I have no idea. 

Looking at the two hosel adaptors adjustments, the M3 looks similar to the E722. It adjusts the lie as you increase loft. My Epic Flash provides 2 adjustments, loft and lie. Lie offers N is neutral and D for Draw. There of course the additional weight adjustments as well to alter swing weight. 
 

https://www.golfstorageguide.com/callaway-epic-flash-driver-adjustment-guide/

From what I have read Callaway has one on the best adjustable adaptors.

[RickyBobby_PR]

2 hours ago, Firebird said:

Looking at the two hosel adaptors adjustments, the M3 looks similar to the E722. It adjusts the lie as you increase loft. My Epic Flash provides 2 adjustments, loft and lie. Lie offers N is neutral and D for Draw. There of course the additional weight adjustments as well to alter swing weight. 
 

https://www.golfstorageguide.com/callaway-epic-flash-driver-adjustment-guide/

From what I have read Callaway has one on the best adjustable adaptors.

It’s not so much a lie issue as it is face angle. As the OP mentioned and cnosil stated when you change loft it’s going to change the face angle. More loft will close the face and less loft will open it. 
 

People like the Callaway adapter because it’s ease of use but titleist adapter is or has been just as good. People just don’t like because it’s not as intuitive to use however there is a chart that titleist provides for how to make the adjustments and it tells you exactly how many degrees of change in loft and lie one will get with each adjustment 

[RickyBobby_PR]

21 hours ago, 9849842 said:

Ok so I've tried the M3 witht he loft increased to 11.5 and it definitely helps the launch angle. Unfortunately it also closes the club face by 4 degrees so everything goes left now.

No unfortunately no local shop... that's why I am trying to figure it out by asking on this forum.

Does anyone know if the Tour Edge E722 face angle changes when you adjust the loft on the hosel (like the M3)?

EDIT: ok so just read about how the loft adjustments ACTUALLY works and now I have no idea. 

This is why none of us can give you any specifics on what shaft will work for you or what driver or driver setting. 
 

You need a setup that delivers more loft at impact. Whether that’s with a new or new to you driver with more loft or a shaft profile that helps you deliver more loft. And finding a shaft can get expensive 

This might be of use to you but again none of us can tell you which specific shaft will best fit your swing or if it will change how your current driver will perform for you with the shaft.

https://www.golfworks.com/choosing-the-best-shaft-for-your-game/a/1650/

[Quigleyd]

On 3/5/2022 at 3:10 PM, RickyBobby_PR said:

Shafts don’t launch or spin. Shafts are for weight and feel. The weight and feel can influence in a good or bad way how a person swings and how that influences delivery of the club and contact point. If you want more knowledge/info on shafts search wishon shaft myths and read that article also search shafts - when to change and when to tweak loft and driver spin - angle of attach. These two posts and the article will answer a lot of your questions about shafts and heads.

 

 

Shafts absolutely can influence launch and spin.. Maybe not to the degree that many think but saying the "don't" effect launch and spin is about as erroneous a statement as there ever has been regarding equipment..  So the question is really not if, but how much impact the shaft will have on launch and spin. The head will have the greatest effect on flight and the shaft is more of a dial for tuning. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

16 minutes ago, Quigleyd said:

 

Shafts absolutely can influence launch and spin.. Maybe not to the degree that many think but saying the "don't" effect launch and spin is about as erroneous a statement as there ever has been regarding equipment..  So the question is really not if, but how much impact the shaft will have on launch and spin. The head will have the greatest effect on flight and the shaft is more of a dial for tuning. 

Please go read wishon’s shaft myths on wrx and also the nice thread that Howard did. Shafts have two roles. Weight and feel. They play a role in how the golfer swings, the golfers swing determines how the club is delivered. 
 

Your last statement is the only thing that is accurate in your statement in relation to woods/hybrids. Getting the right loft so that one is in the right launch window is how predominately all fitters start and then use the shaft to fine tune, but it’s the head and contact point along with face and path relationship that will determine start point, spin, launch and movement of the ball

[Quigleyd]

3 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Please go read wishon’s shaft myths on wrx and also the nice thread that Howard did. Shafts have two roles. Weight and feel. They play a role in how the golfer swings, the golfers swing determines how the club is delivered. 
 

Your last statement is the only thing that is accurate in your statement in relation to woods/hybrids. Getting the right loft so that one is in the right launch window is how predominately all fitters start and then use the shaft to fine tune, but it’s the head and contact point along with face and path relationship that will determine start point, spin, launch and movement of the ball

 

I have read it. I have also had the opportunity to meet Wishon before. The thoughts there are old and outdated. I disagree with him. Wishon also says that adjustable hosel's do not actually do anything. Shafts, or better put shaft design meaning EI curve etc.. absolutely, 100% influence launch and spin. It is incorrect to say they do not. Again, it is simply a question of how much... 

[IONEPUTT]

On 3/9/2022 at 7:14 AM, Quigleyd said:

 

Shafts absolutely can influence launch and spin.. Maybe not to the degree that many think but saying the "don't" effect launch and spin is about as erroneous a statement as there ever has been regarding equipment..  So the question is really not if, but how much impact the shaft will have on launch and spin. The head will have the greatest effect on flight and the shaft is more of a dial for tuning. 

This nonsense about whether a shaft can effect launch and spin is one reason I do NOT care to much for what is being posted here. So much of what is being posted is just plain Wrong.  

And I really have to "Langh" when I read how changing the loft or lie of a driver means the face angle will open or shut at the same time. This just makes me lauch so hard. 

I don't know about you other golfers here, but when I play golf, I aim the face of the club where I want to ball to go, I do NOT just grab the club and swing at the ball. If YOU don't know enough by now to AIM the face of your clubs where you want the ball to go, It's "TOO" late already. You will NEVER learn how to play this crazy game if you don't learn to aim the face where you want to ball to go "BEFORE" you take your grip on the club. 

Try this simple test;  Tee up a ball on a mat, then set your driver behind the ball and LOOK at the face. With a lot of drivers the face will be pointing off to the right and IF you just take your grip with the face that way, you will get exactly what you deserve. a big fat slice. But IF you are smart enough to "Aim" the face of your driver AT your target, will might just see the ball fly straight at the target and not slice. 

Bottom line is do NOT worry about whether adding loft to your driver will open or close the club face. Instead just learn HOW to aim the face at your target, "Before" you take your grip with your lead hand and it's just NOT an issue. 

[IONEPUTT]

On 3/5/2022 at 11:25 AM, 9849842 said:

I don't live in a place where a proper club fitting is available, I just have to order online and hope it works.

My typical driver numbers are:

- 110 mph club speed,

- +2 attack angle

- +2 club path with 0 club angle (try to hit a little draw)

- launch angle of 7

- spin around 1900

The ball only carries around 230 or 240 and rolls out to 280. Not very ideal. I am hitting an M3 9.5 loft with a tensei blue stiff shaft which I don't like at all - it feels too heavy for me.

I was looking at buying the new tour edge e722 but wasn't sure what loft / shaft I should get. The tensei red I think helps get the launch angle higher, but only comes in stiff. The ventus blue is lower launch but then I can get x-stiff. Any advice? Or any other drivers out there that would be better? I'm a 4 handicap so decent striker but I still have plenty of off-center hits, so I want something forgiving and not focused on low-spin (I think I actually need higher spin).

You stated in another post that you do NOT want to change your swing. I find it sad you are not willing to make a few simple and easy adjustment to your swing to increase your launch angle and get more carry distance from your 110 MPH club head speed. Simply put, 2 degrees upward angle of attack is just NOT enough to get the most out of your speed. You should be looking to get a 6* or 7* upward attach angle for more carry. Clay Ballard has a nice short video on exactly HOW to increase your attack angle and get more carry yards if you are willing to make a few small changes in your set-up. If you truly are NOT willing to make this simple change, then I wish you luck as you are going to need all the luck you can get. 

[GolfSpy_BNG]

16 minutes ago, IONEPUTT said:

And I really have to "Langh" when I read how changing the loft or lie of a driver means the face angle will open or shut at the same time. This just makes me lauch so hard

You can laugh all you want but the face angle absolutely changes with loft adjusting.  If you hold the shaft at the exact same angle the face will open or close depending on loft adjustment. Squaring the face will change the shaft angle you are holding the club

[RickyBobby_PR]

43 minutes ago, IONEPUTT said:

You stated in another post that you do NOT want to change your swing. I find it sad you are not willing to make a few simple and easy adjustment to your swing to increase your launch angle and get more carry distance from your 110 MPH club head speed. Simply put, 2 degrees upward angle of attack is just NOT enough to get the most out of your speed. You should be looking to get a 6* or 7* upward attach angle for more carry. Clay Ballard has a nice short video on exactly HOW to increase your attack angle and get more carry yards if you are willing to make a few small changes in your set-up. If you truly are NOT willing to make this simple change, then I wish you luck as you are going to need all the luck you can get. 

There are pga tour pros with similar swing speed that get plenty out of 2*  aoa and even lower. 

[IONEPUTT]

2 hours ago, blackngold_blood said:

You can laugh all you want but the face angle absolutely changes with loft adjusting.  If you hold the shaft at the exact same angle the face will open or close depending on loft adjustment. Squaring the face will change the shaft angle you are holding the club

YOU need to learn how to read the English language. I did NOT say the face angle would not change with a loft adjustment, what I typed was that it does NOT make any difference if it changes or not. ALL a golfer has to do is AIM the clubface at the target before taking a grip on the club, and any face angle change is NOT an issue. Why worry about whether the face angle changes when all you have to do is AIM the face where you want to hit the ball and it's a mote point?  

[IONEPUTT]

1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

There are pga tour pros with similar swing speed that get plenty out of 2*  aoa and even lower. 

 I honestly do NOT care what any tour player can do with a 2* aoa.  Fact is this guy is struggling with getting good carry distance from his 110 MPH club speed and is asking for help. And that is what I offered him, Help in gaining more carry yards by increasing his aoa to get the most from his speed. If you don't like my advice, I couldn't care less about it. My advice was NOT directed to you but the golfer that started this thread. If all you can do is attack me for offering my advice, that's your problem and just one more reason I'm not very impressed with the bad advice I see being posted on this site by people like you. 

[GolfSpy_BNG]

12 minutes ago, IONEPUTT said:

YOU need to learn how to read the English language. I did NOT say the face angle would not change with a loft adjustment, what I typed was that it does NOT make any difference if it changes or not. ALL a golfer has to do is AIM the clubface at the target before taking a grip on the club, and any face angle change is NOT an issue. Why worry about whether the face angle changes when all you have to do is AIM the face where you want to hit the ball and it's a mote point?  

Reading isn’t my problem sir. I said it changes the angle of the shaft and face. Which means you can not grip the club with the exact same stance to get a square face. You can manipulate the face square but you are no longer holding the shaft at the same angle as before. The more you rotate the face to get it square the more the angle of the shaft to face will lean forward.   The statement that it will open or close the face is ALWAYS in releationship the the shaft.   It has nothing to do with aiming the face. 

[cnosil]

3 hours ago, IONEPUTT said:

Try this simple test;  Tee up a ball on a mat, then set your driver behind the ball and LOOK at the face. With a lot of drivers the face will be pointing off to the right and IF you just take your grip with the face that way, you will get exactly what you deserve. a big fat slice. But IF you are smart enough to "Aim" the face of your driver AT your target, will might just see the ball fly straight at the target and not slice. 

Where you aim the driver has no influence on where the ball will go; it is all about impact.   Let's assume that you do return that face to pointing right.   Yes the ball will start right, but it can go straight right if the face angle matches the path and it can even draw if the path is more in-to-out than the face angle.   Aim your face at the target and even deliver the clubface at the target can still result in a draw or fade depending on your path.     This is how the ball flight laws work.  

[RickyBobby_PR]

3 hours ago, IONEPUTT said:

 I honestly do NOT care what any tour player can do with a 2* aoa.  Fact is this guy is struggling with getting good carry distance from his 110 MPH club speed and is asking for help. And that is what I offered him, Help in gaining more carry yards by increasing his aoa to get the most from his speed. If you don't like my advice, I couldn't care less about it. My advice was NOT directed to you but the golfer that started this thread. If all you can do is attack me for offering my advice, that's your problem and just one more reason I'm not very impressed with the bad advice I see being posted on this site by people like you. 

Your advice is bad advice. You say his problem is that he doesn’t have enough AoA for his swing speed. That’s not true, as I stated there are pros and if you read other forums there are golfers with similar swing speeds that get more carry and take advantage of that speed with a lot less than 6-7° AoA. They all deliver at least the stated loft of the driver. 6-7° up is extreme and you would be hard pressed to find an instructor who would say it’s not because of the potential problems it could cause. That much angle of attack for the vast majority of golfers means they are coming too far in to out. That’s going to lead to people have a a push to push fade, over draw/hook or a two way miss.

The Op has a 9.5° driver and based on manufacturer tolerance that could be anywhere from 8-11° of loft. So he’s offering anywhere from 1-4° less loft than the club is at. He needs to find a way to deliver more loft at impact not more AoA. Whether that’s trying a higher lifter driver to avoid the issues already covered by everyone in replies to the op about what happens when the loft is adjusted on a driver via the adapter. Or he needs to find a a way to change the loft he delivers at impact by not delofting the driver